sagiquarius Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hey Guys! I was the first caller on the March 16th Sunday show. Twas a great conversation, but there wasn't time to go into my question (title of this post). I'd like to chat with Stef about it soon, so I'll check with Mike about that. I'll put this in context of my life, so we have some thing to work with. I'm a bisexual man (meaning, I can, and have, form romantic & sexual bonds with either gender - gender neutral you could say), and have often wondered how the absence of a father effected me in this regard. I don't have any close male friends - romantic or friendship - that I would consider fulfilling. In general, I find the male physique more impressive than the female, though they both have their attractions, depending on the person. What I care about, of course, is the mind, moral solidarity. I'd often get jests about how I could play both sides by having more choice ... not really true, because gender doesn't matter to me. I'm very lucky to be with a woman with whom I share a strong moral and philosophical solidarity. But, I still desire a fulfilling male presence. Perhaps I always will. Perhaps that little boy, that still waits by the window for an absent father) will always feel that yearning. I dunno. Mike asked an interesting question: What would happen to my attraction to men, if I were to have a fulfilling male relationship in my life? I'm open for a group skype chat about this as well, if anybody is interested. This question has always fascinated me. So, what do you guys think? What effect, if any, could a fatherless childhood have on sexuality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I think it depends on some things. I had a mostly fatherless childhood and the result of that (I believe) was a strong aversion to dating. This is because as a child watching my parents' divorce, what I had perceived had happened was that my mom, for no reason, kicked my dad out of the house, and the quality of my dad's life became frighteningly abysmal. I had imagined that my mom had ruined my dad's life and that if I got into relationships with women, I could end up the same way: living in a trailer with my body falling apart, working for a pizza delivery company at age 60 all alone. I'm a somewhat good looking guy, I think, and nice, and I like to crack people up, and so I have ladies show an interest in dating me from time to time. I thought this was terrible though, because I was super conflicted. I want love in my life and it seems at least conceivable that I can have the kind of romantic relationship that is healthy and fun and awesome, but I also was terrified of being the kind of vulnerable that would be necessary to have that because my life could get ruined. It still scares me, but I would literally have panic attacks, get all tunnel visioned and lose my ability to speak whole sentences when I realized that an eligible female was looking at me like she might want to date me and I felt the same. It also didn't help that I had no father that I felt I could give me the insights I needed in order to better develop what to expect and what I wanted in romantic relationships. And the pain of that was too much so during my teens I suppressed the desire to have a love relationship. I did that by nihilistically concluding that all love relationships were toxic and false, and I found a lot of evidence for this where most people are still in denial. It actually wasn't until hearing Stef talk about his relationship with his wife that I found it impossible to sustain this, and had to conclude that it is possible to have something truly great. Much of my own self work and therapy has been around this issue, and a source of overwhelming grief. I don't even know if this helps at all. I just saw an opportunity to flesh out some thoughts I had and took it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickstine Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Not sure I would be able to comment on the question about the effect in general, sagi. Kev has offered some great insight. I would ask you if you have talked to the people/woman currently in your life ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Well another thing to consider is the fact that you father is your template. If you didnt have a father that means you didnt have a template, so you learned what it means to be a man by others or didnt learn about it. -thus your bi-sexuality could have formed there. From what i understood in my phycology class is the bi-sexuality is not possible. The professor explained that you could be gay but your brain is weird for only one. (according to the theory) In my personal experience i did have a dad but he was never home and always neglectful and he frightened me. I never learned what it was to be a man, i always had troubling relationships. I didnt have a good template. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 From what i understood in my phycology class is the bi-sexuality is not possible. The professor explained that you could be gay but your brain is weird for only one. (according to the theory) As I understand it, homosexuality is the result of trauma in utero. Referencing what the brain looks like in an untraumatized state would not be helpful in considering how the trauma might manifest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 As I understand it, homosexuality is the result of trauma in utero. Referencing what the brain looks like in an untraumatized state would not be helpful in considering how the trauma might manifest.That has actually been proven wrong. Even stef apologized after saying that once. What happens is that when the fetus is forming the first priority is to build the body so if it's a female you need estrogen and other hormones. Once the body is formed then it builds the brain and if the mother is lacking in hormones it will use other hormones instead. So you can have a female with the wiring of a male (in the brain ) This could happen if the mother is lacking the correct hormones.Im not a scientist but this is the main idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks for the correction. I'll have to stop mentioning that until I look into it more. Still, I don't think it's rational to exclude the possibility of bi-sexuality since even that explanation indicates something gone wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagiquarius Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Right, it wouldn't be rational to exclude the possibility of bi-sexuality since I've lived it. We can talk about all the theory in the world, but reality (and personal experience) trump theory. The response to bisexuality from the gay and straight community, in my experience, is that of ignorance and misunderstanding. I commonly hear things like: "just choose a side, you're only confused." "why don't just you stop being bi?" "It's just a phase" "how do you know you're bi, I don't get it" and so on. Oh, my favorite is that because I'm bi, that means I'm an insatiable whore that "must have" both genders to feel satisfied. The vast majority of people make it about sex - not the emotional relationship itself. I suspect that much of that is a projection regarding their own discomforts with their romantic histories and so on. I still have that desire for the family I didn't have as a child. Perhaps this is the source of my sexuality, perhaps it's more genetic. Perhaps the epigenetic potential was there, with my childhood acting as a catalyst. I'm sure I'll never have a clear answer to the question without testing it. The only test that can be applied is to find a satisfying relationship with a man. Quickstine: Yes, I have discussed this with my partner at great length. She sympathizes because she is bi-curious (that leans towards men) but has never explored that part of herself because, for her, a committed emotional connection is more important. She understands it's something that will always kind of "be there" for me, like a wintery ache from a long healed broken bone. Kevin: Thanks for sharing. So, it sounds like the lack of a father figure has little - if any - direct impact on sexual orientation. Sounds like you're pretty straight to me. I'm sorry for the lack of positive male figure in your life, I know exactly what that's like. If I may ask, are you dating now, or still working on it via therapy and self-help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Right, it wouldn't be rational to exclude the possibility of bi-sexuality since I've lived it. We can talk about all the theory in the world, but reality (and personal experience) trump theory. The response to bisexuality from the gay and straight community, in my experience, is that of ignorance and misunderstanding. I commonly hear things like: "just choose a side, you're only confused." "why don't just you stop being bi?" "It's just a phase" "how do you know you're bi, I don't get it" and so on. Oh, my favorite is that because I'm bi, that means I'm an insatiable whore that "must have" both genders to feel satisfied. I'm so sorry to hear any of this. That last sentence reminded me of my father. He's Christian and extremely bigoted and judgemental. I remember him once describing gays as people that want it so bad, they don't care where they get it from. Just an awful thing to say. I don't question your experience for a moment. I just wanted to point out that anecdotal evidence isn't proper evidence. I was seeing a psychologist when I was a teen very briefly. She was nothing special to look at, but I was incredibly turned on by our relationship simply because we had a level of intimacy that I longed for and hadn't received even from family. This isn't rational, and physiologically, it was not an accurate interpretation. People make mistakes like these all the time. Again, not questioning your experience. Just reminding you that we are capable of error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagiquarius Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 I'm so sorry to hear any of this. That last sentence reminded me of my father. He's Christian and extremely bigoted and judgemental. I remember him once describing gays as people that want it so bad, they don't care where they get it from. Just an awful thing to say. I don't question your experience for a moment. I just wanted to point out that anecdotal evidence isn't proper evidence. I was seeing a psychologist when I was a teen very briefly. She was nothing special to look at, but I was incredibly turned on by our relationship simply because we had a level of intimacy that I longed for and hadn't received even from family. This isn't rational, and physiologically, it was not an accurate interpretation. People make mistakes like these all the time. Again, not questioning your experience. Just reminding you that we are capable of error. I appreciate the solidarity - no worries - and completely understand the desire for something solid to speak of regarding the expression of human sexuality. Sounds like you (and likely just about everybody on the FDR boards) may be sapiosexual. You're father sounds like an asshole, if I may be so bold. To quote spaceballs the movie: "How many assholes do we have on this ship anyhow?" I don't know anything about your history, but I can't imagine - to say the least - it was pleasant being under the same roof as such a man. I wince at what my imagination is forming of your history. I have a theory about bigots. I think many of them know they come across as assholes, and are insecure about their beliefs. So they point to crap about genetics, being born wrong, or whatever excuse they can think of, to mollify themselves and avoid admitting fault or apologizing - "It's not meee, it's reality!" Even if the evidence were clearly saying that homosexuality is a result of trauma, or just messed up genetics; that still doesn't excuse being an asshole. It's like calling somebody with down syndrome "a goddamn retard" or something. My dad was curious when I told him; maybe a bit surprised. My mother felt a little hurt that I hadn't told her before. I asked her: "Do you go around telling people you like penis"? Besides, I knew she wouldn't understand because she was one of the folks that assumed that bisexual meant "non-monogamous man-whore." I told her to drop the prejudice and hear me out if she wanted to continue the conversation. You are what you are; it need not be advertised nor used as an opportunity to gain victim-hood status in the eyes of many on the political left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't mean to say you are not bisexual I know that exists . What I was trying to explain is that it might come form a different place, compared to being gay that is shown to come from what I explain on top. I just think that no one has figured out bisexuality yet . I know personally someone who said they where bi my whole life but after years of self knowlege they realized they where just gay. So I might be projecting this experience on you ? Sorry if I insulted you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I asked her: "Do you go around telling people you like penis"? This reminds me of my journey from the bigoted upbringing I received to acceptance. I had started working a job at a call center that had a couple of very flamboyant, outgoing homosexual males. They were nice guys, but it really bugged me how out there they were with their sexuality. Until one day, it occurred me that I was a stone hypocrite for thinking that way as much of my teen years and early adulthood was spent making innuendo constantly. The very thing I used as an excuse to be disgusted by them applied to me also. Needless to say, it helped me both to become more accepting and to tone down my own obnoxiousness. Something that I later found out seriously bugged a couple of my "friends" despite them behaving as if they enjoyed that about me. Sounds like you (and likely just about everybody on the FDR boards) may be sapiosexual. I can't speak for others, but I know this isn't true of me. My first sexual encounter was with a boy. We were having a sleep over and he taught me that being touched down there felt good. Later in life, I had a friend I hung out with regularly. We lived in the same apartment complex, had keys to each others' place, etc. He sort of snuck a peek one time and I was a bit of an exhibitionist anyways, so I kind of went with it. But despite half being open to the possibility, and being able to understand that some men are really good looking, I am completely turned off by the idea of being a giver in a male-male physical interaction. So no, intellect alone doesn't do it for me. Thanks for teaching me a new word though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagiquarius Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't mean to say you are not bisexual I know that exists . What I was trying to explain is that it might come form a different place, compared to being gay that is shown to come from what I explain on top.I just think that no one has figured out bisexuality yet .I know personally someone who said they where bi my whole life but after years of self knowlege they realized they where just gay. So I might be projecting this experience on you ?Sorry if I insulted you Please, no need to apologize, I'm in no way offended by anything anybody has said. I do have some sensitivity to these conversations because they can get a bit tedious for me dueto my history with them. I didn't intend to come off as sensitive, if that is how I presented myself - no need to walk on egg shells for me. I'd love to have a chat with that person you mentioned. In the gay community, the most prevalent assumption about bisexual males is that they are closeted homosexuals. Women don't have to deal with the bisexual prejudice, I don't fully understand why it's fine for one gender, but not the other. Dsayers: Oh sure, I get it. Sorry, I wasn't clear about my statement. I didn't mean to imply that being sapiosexual overrode your orientation. But, you are very attracted to intelligence, right? When you mentioned innuendo; are you referring to sexual innuendo towards your male friends at the time? My first sexual experiences were also with close male friends as well. The most consistent lasted a year, and happened during our sleep overs. I didn't have sex with a woman until I was 22ish. So, I guess this means you're not coming over to cuddle later, right? I just want to be clear on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 you are very attracted to intelligence, right? I got lost. You had asked that in regards to me mentioning my psychologist? Intellectually, I'm attracted to intelligence. Physically, as a vestige of my more predatory days, I'm attracted to easy targets, which intelligence sort of gets in the way of. That said, I'm still working towards self-knowledge and healing, so I'm not really on the market and when I return, I will not allow myself to get tangled up with people that could punish me for making the wrong decisions if that makes sense. No, the innuendo was towards females. That's what I meant by holding it against them when it was just as true of me. Can't really look down on somebody for being forward about their sexuality when I was doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnkltnkl Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I definitely can't speak to your experience as a man without a father, and I'm not sure how helpful an insight from a woman without a father will be but I'll try to give it a go. My mother made the decision to tell my father (who had been a one night stand) that she was pregnant, but she didn't want him to be around. I've never met him, and only learned his name and saw a picture of him after I was older than 18. Orientation-wise, this doesn't seem to have had any effect on me. I could have a relationship with a woman, but not a sexual one. The problem I've discovered is that it left me with the almost completely overwhelming need to please, impress and be accepted by all men. Any man. It's actually so bad that while reading through this thread I realized that it caused me to allow myself into a situation where I got repeatedly taken advantage of. I didn't say no, not only because of the threat of violence and death, but because in some twisted way I wanted to prove to him that I could handle it, that I wasn't like the other girls he had done it to. I'm very sorry that you had to grow up without a father in your life, I know that it's so damn important. I hope my post didn't sidetrack your discussion, I just felt the need to post my experience and thoughts that came to me while I was reading through. Please let me know your thoughts on how or if this relates to your experience at all, I'm curious to know. Do you feel the need to impress and gain acceptance from the men in your life as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Orientation-wise, this doesn't seem to have had any effect on me. I could have a relationship with a woman, but not a sexual one. The problem I've discovered is that it left me with the almost completely overwhelming need to please, impress and be accepted by all men. Any man. It's actually so bad that while reading through this thread I realized that it caused me to allow myself into a situation where I got repeatedly taken advantage of. I didn't say no, not only because of the threat of violence and death, but because in some twisted way I wanted to prove to him that I could handle it, that I wasn't like the other girls he had done it to. I know this may also be of topic but my mother always put other people in front of me and i had the same experience of always trying to please my mother. "look ma no hands" I always worried about what women thought about me, and i always felt compelled to please them when they where neglectful. (or absent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagiquarius Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 tnkltnkl and Ivan, Not off topic at all, and thanks for the input. Yeah, I was insecure most of my life. I've put a lot of energy (over the last 5-years) into breaking the habits born from that insecurity. It was so bad that I would find myself "automatically" adjusting to how I thought people would perceive me - not even giving them the chance to respond to my true self. I had this assumption that I, in general, wasn't good enough and needed to compensate for that in some way. This took the form of emotional manipulation, verbal aggressiveness, or being overly accommodating by "doing stuff" to show my value instead of living my values. I was so busy planning, adjusting, and compensating that I wasn't existing. Then came FDR, and it all went to shit! Does any of that ring some familiar bells for you guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnkltnkl Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I had this assumption that I, in general, wasn't good enough and needed to compensate for that in some way. This took the form of emotional manipulation, verbal aggressiveness, or being overly accommodating by "doing stuff" to show my value instead of living my values. I was so busy planning, adjusting, and compensating that I wasn't existing. Yes, I definitely can relate to that 100%. I still do that now, trying to "do stuff" to show my value because I still struggle with understanding that I have value. Do you think this is from not having a father or father figure, or could there be some other factor as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadrewple Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 My first thought when reading the thread title was a bit different than the other posts I'm reading here, and what I'm about to say is mostly speculation, but I think it makes good sense. If there is no male who in the family who is focused on providing the child with resources, that child's perception of their safety is greatly lessened (because of the importance of having a strong male hunter/gatherer around for basically all of human history) and so it makes sense that the child would anticipate having a shortened lifespan. This would theoretically lead to hypersexuality, and a very short-term, reproduce as fast as possible type of mindset for either gender. Thinking back, most of the kids who I knew who were sexually active in junior high and early high school didn't have fathers around, or at least had step-parents, so there's some personal anecdotal evidence for this idea. I have no idea what effect fatherless could/would have on sexual orientation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagiquarius Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yes, I definitely can relate to that 100%. I still do that now, trying to "do stuff" to show my value because I still struggle with understanding that I have value. Do you think this is from not having a father or father figure, or could there be some other factor as well? Well, for me, the behavior we're discussing was born from insecurity. I can't attribute my insecurity to anything in particular, but I think Quad made a good point about a lack of father contributing to insecurity (and increased sexual activity, in my experience). Acknowledging the effect my parents had on me (and understanding it was OK to express anger about that) went a long way to helping me discover what values I do bring to the table. Did you have zero father figure when you were growing up? Do you/did you find yourself going out of your way to please folks? Even folks that weren't worth the effort to you? It's one thing to go out of your way to please a long term romantic partner or somebody to whom you have a loyal and fulfilling bond, it's another to "do stuff" for folks that barely give you much in return save for excuses of why they don't want to hang out much. Sound familiar? I'm glad you're taking part in the FDR conversation, it'll certainly help you discover what you bring to the table. Took me 2 years of listening nearly every day, and applying what I could, before it kicked in for me. What a ride, man. I wish I'd have found FDR when I was 24! PS. Do you have a temper? I mean, one that is easily triggered and kind of scary? That was another issue that was tied to the insecurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I wanted to add my own experience to this. I had a father growing up until about the age of 11, when he died. Prior to that he was sporadic: There were times when he would play games with me that I would really enjoy and show interest in me, and other times he would be distant, withdrawn. I recognize some guys as more attractive than others but never in a sexually desirable way like I do with women. Not having a father during puberty and into adulthood has been somewhat of a nightmare. Couple the lack of male role models with a controlling mother and it's no surprise I had difficulty approaching women. I ended up in a place similar to what Kevin described, looking at all romantic relationship as kind of false/toxic. Did you have zero father figure when you were growing up? Do you/did you find yourself going out of your way to please folks? Even folks that weren't worth the effort to you? It's one thing to go out of your way to please a long term romantic partner or somebody to whom you have a loyal and fulfilling bond, it's another to "do stuff" for folks that barely give you much in return save for excuses of why they don't want to hang out much. Sound familiar? Yeah definitely. I felt like I had to prove myself to everybody. Prove that I had value, something to offer. I think this mostly comes from the lack of bonding with my mother and my subsequent attempts to get her attention as a child, but not having a father during my teen years did also make me feel insecure about being a man. Maybe if he had been there I would have been more confident in myself. This would theoretically lead to hypersexuality, and a very short-term, reproduce as fast as possible type of mindset for either gender. Unless you were raised catholic and shamed about your sexuality. I can't imagine what it would have been like to be interested in men at the same time. My ex-friend (whose family was christian) was so confused about his sexuality that he went from straight > gay > bi. (I mean in behavior, he was always bi in the end) It was funny when he came out to me about being gay, I ended up saying something like, "Well yeah, that's not surprising". I got the sense he feared what my response would be, but even way back then I never understood what the big deal was about. His parents had taught him it was something to be ashamed of and rejected, and so he expected something similar from me I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnkltnkl Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 PS. Do you have a temper? I mean, one that is easily triggered and kind of scary? That was another issue that was tied to the insecurity. I actually don't have a temper, or at least not one that is triggered often. I do get easily defensive, but that usually just puts me in more of a "disagree with everything and be negative" sort of mood, though I'm learning to notice it and correct myself (as well as apologize to whomever I react that way with). I /can/ recall situations where my defensiveness led me to burst out with some very harsh words, but never shouting. The words are usually chosen with extreme precision for maximum damage. The situation in particular that I'm thinking of would be when my mother and sister decided to sit across the room from me (which, they often teamed up on me so it automatically put me on the defensive) to tell me all about what they thought was wrong with me and how I needed to change. I said some very hurtful things to both of them, which led my sister to spit out "I just hate you sometimes". Of course, this was back before I had learned any of the stuff I know now. It was while I was still struggling with depression, after I had quit university to move back in with my mother. I don't have those same impulses anymore, because I know how to deal with those situations better. As for the father figures I had growing up, briefly my sister's father who ignored his evil wife's torture upon us kids, and my grandmothers second husband (step grandfather) who hit us both abusively and also occasionally inappropriately on the butt. Those both were for very short periods of time, most of my time was spent with my mother, especially after the age of 10 after she stopped drinking. I feel like I don't go out of my way as much anymore for people, but I still consistently have that feeling of need, to be accepted and thought highly of by men. I don't trust my interactions with men as being honest and genuine anymore, until I can identify when I'm behaving this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafui Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The professor explained that you could be gay but your brain is weird for only one. (according to the theory) From what i understood in my phycology class is the bi-sexuality is not possible. Could you find the information used to support the professor's claim? Because I have had issues with the nomenclature for quite a while now: Heterosexual being a desire for the opposite sex; homosexual for the same sex; bisexual for both. As individuals, we are attracted to particular characteristics in an individual. We express preference and disdain over certain practices. But by the usage of these terms shouldn't we be attracted to anyone in the corresponding group?Also, the development of sex in an individual is not binary but develops on sliding scales: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/me-my-sex-and-i/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Could you find the information used to support the professor's claim? Because I have had issues with the nomenclature for quite a while now: Heterosexual being a desire for the opposite sex; homosexual for the same sex; bisexual for both. As individuals, we are attracted to particular characteristics in an individual. We express preference and disdain over certain practices. But by the usage of these terms shouldn't we be attracted to anyone in the corresponding group?Also, the development of sex in an individual is not binary but develops on sliding scales: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/me-my-sex-and-i/Yeah I'll try to find that, this only applied to gays btw I don't think anyone could explain bisexuality yet . Keep in mine I'm not an expert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mshidden Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Ivan, I have to say I like what you explaind here nice example of self realization... GreaI know personally someone who said they where bi my whole life but after years of self knowlege they realized they where just gay. So I might be projecting this experience on you ?Sorry if I insulted you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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