Dilemma with my new relationship

[travioli]

     Hey everyone. First, I'll give some context.

This girl, Athena, I have met through my scholarship group at the University of Utah. She's an Architecture major, and we are also taking an Architectural design class together. I had a crush on her for about 3 weeks, before she basically told me that she could tell and that she would give me a chance. We went on a date, and then she came to the conclusion that she wanted to be together, as I agreed.

More on her; she doesn't listen to FDR or isn't too intellectual, but I feel comfortable talking about the topics of philosophy and this show, as well as Ayn Rand etc. and she receives them well. She doesn't reciprocate as much as I'd like, but she is receptive and reactive in a positive way.

I like her because she *seems* to have had a fairly positive childhood, and thus is able to nurture a partner well, as I thought. She reacts with disgust toward the topic of child abuse, and when I told her stories about my childhood she demonstrated healthy empathy. She's pretty curious about things, and she wants to understand me. There is one catch though--she's never had a boyfriend, or even kissed a guy. She's 19, and I'm 18. We also talk about a lot in the relationship; our feelings, our worries, concerns, etc. Like for example, we talked about how it was going to be different, because she's never had a boyfriend, and I've never had a girlfriend who hasn't had a boyfriend (no experience). We talked about how we need our own space, and that first we are individuals, and that we don't want to be hanging out with one another if it isn't beneficial to us/makes us happy.

But what I don't like, is that it's been like 2 weeks and we've barely held hands--It's very odd for me, to be with a girl who doesn't really know how relationships work, I guess is how I would put it. She doesn't know how to really initiate physical affection, even if she wants it. Also, she's very busy as an Architecture major, and doesn't have a lot of time--something we've talked about, and I acknowledge she has little control over. So, the dilemma is that I don't know if it's good for me to let myself be in a romantic relationship but logistically not be a high priority (due to time commitments). I.e. I think it's hard for me to say "I am good, important, and have valuable things to offer in a romantic relationship." While being with someone who only the capacity to date as more of a casual, rather than close interaction.  

Hopefully that made some sense, and I'd like some input, questions, etc. I'm pretty ambivalent at the moment, even thought I like her and think I would like to continue the relationship; I plan to talk to her about this, but I wanted to know what all the smarties on the FDR board thought, haha.

[dsayers]

But what I don't like, is that it's been like 2 weeks and we've barely held hands--It's very odd for me, to be with a girl who doesn't really know how relationships work

 

*how OTHER relationships SOMETIMES work. If she's still spending time with you, it sounds like the relationship is working for her. I'm not saying that what works for her should supersede what works for you, but your quote here sort of takes her out of an equation that she's a part of.

 

So the next thought across my mind is why would somebody take somebody out of an equation that they're a part of? It strikes me as a way of dealing with insecurity. Is a relationship with her okay with you if it doesn't involve hand holding or doesn't involve it as soon, as often, or as initiated by her as you'd like? If not, then admit this to yourself and talk to her about it. The only other reason I can think of somebody would remove somebody from an equation they're a part of is from blaming them, as if it is a fault. And it certainly could be that she was harmed in a way that she has an aversion to holding hands/physical affection. You won't know unless you talk to her about it.

 

Please don't take this as condescension. It seems that you mean well and have a healthy approach. Sometimes it's hard to pick up on these subtle nuances when you're in the middle of it. It's easy for me to see (assuming I'm in the ballpark) because I used to be very controlling. I know all too well what inflicting expectations on others looks like as well as punishing them for not meeting those unspoken expectations. I'm not saying this describes you since what I'm talking about in myself was far worse and was not borne out of caring for the person at all.

 

For what it's worth, I personally don't think studies, which can just as easily be done anytime, are higher priority than developing a relationship with somebody. Even if you're not destined to get married, meaningful relationships aren't something you can just go and sign up for, pay tuition, and get. Nor are they as trivial. I hope the two of you are able to talk about all of this and figure out something that works for both of you. Thanks for sharing.

[travioli]

 

 

*how OTHER relationships SOMETIMES work. If she's still spending time with you, it sounds like the relationship is working for her. I'm not saying that what works for her should supersede what works for you, but your quote here sort of takes her out of an equation that she's a part of.

Fair enough. I didn't realize that I grouped an example of barely holding hands in the same thought as me not feeling she knows how a relationship works...I didn't mean to, but maybe that's revealing.

 

If not, then admit this to yourself and talk to her about it...And it certainly could be that she was harmed in a way that she has an aversion to holding hands/physical affection. You won't know unless you talk to her about it.

I haven't fully admitted this to myself, (and I should) but we have indeed talked about it. The reason she tells me that is scared of physical affection is that she is terrified of rape, even though we established I'd be the last person to rape her and that that's totally non-sequitor to the relationship. She acknowledged that, and apologized for having such an "irrational view" as she called it, but she said it would take time for her. This rang the alarm bells for sexual abuse, but she said she was never molested, convincingly. I told her that even though I'll wait for her, and that I acknowledge that it is healthy to wait (because of her feelings and the necessity of an "us" being considered), it was not going to ideal for me, having to wait for her to be ready. But also, she doesn't really give me the time of day. Our interactions today were especially bland, compared to how deep the conversational topics usually are. She seemed very cold to me, lately. Maybe I am resentfully blaming her for that... I don't know.

 

 For what it's worth, I personally don't think studies, which can just as easily be done anytime, are higher priority than developing a relationship with somebody. Even if you're not destined to get married, meaningful relationships aren't something you can just go and sign up for, pay tuition, and get. Nor are they as trivial. I hope the two of you are able to talk about all of this and figure out something that works for both of you.

That's a really good point--I'll bring that up with her. I guess I should find more about her view of relationships in general. Maybe that's what I mean when I say she doesn't really know how relationships work, i.e. she doesn't recognize the importance of them? But that's a guess, and that also could be my fault for not proving to her that they can be important, by lieu of my example.

 

I suppose my main concern was that I didn't know if it would be harmful to my self-worth to be with someone who doesn't value me as much as I think they should, or as much as I value myself...even though its more logistical than anything else. That sounded revealing when I typed it... "as much as I think they should", as if that were a legitimate criteria for proving that I'm being treated unjustly.

 

 

Thanks for the perspective

[TheMatrixHasMe]

What positive and healthy relationship experiences do you bring to the table with regard to this potential relationship?

 

I am also curious to know what is preventing you from asking to hold this woman's hand?

[BlackHeron]

I think Stefan gives the best advice about sounding out new relationships.  I wish I had known someone like him 25 years ago to give me the same advice.

 

Ask her about her childhood and discuss it.  Ask about her relationships with her parents and her siblings.  Ask about her experiences at school and how her family supported her in dealing with her school and other outside of the family social interactions.  

 

It's always best to map out the minefield before you ever decide to take that first step into it.

[Swingpirate]

You know – as dsayers already pointed out – what I sense spontaneously is that you are writing about the relationship with yourself as a completely passive side of the equation: that she was the one who revealed that she knew what you felt about her, the she gave you the chance, that she came to the conclusion that she wanted to be together, and that you only agreed. If I were you, I would invest a lot of my resources into finding out what signals you send out that lead you to that kind of situations of self-erasure, and why.  

 

I am curious on your thoughts as to why you got interested in her in the first place, that is, before you started to go out?

[dsayers]

The reason she tells me that is scared of physical affection is that she is terrified of rape, even though we established I'd be the last person to rape her

 

The leap from holding hands to rape is so enormous, that I find it jarring to read about as a third party. Correct me if I am wrong, but this doesn't strike me as a normal concept association. I don't think that establishing your own incapacity for rape is as important as expressing curiosity as to how she came to make that connection. Depending on why that is, to express one's own incapacity for rape might not even matter or be received.

 

Assuming I'm correct on how abnormal and substantial that is, it could be indicative of pretty serious trauma. I don't think her claim of not being sexually abused is necessarily helpful. If you ask her if she's ever been stolen from, she might say no, but she's paid sales tax and the like. It could be that what she's experienced is something she's normalized in an attempt to avoid processing it. Expressing curiosity as to how she made that connection might help you to help her, or to realize that it might be better to save yourself by getting away from somebody who is damaged.

 

You would know this better than me of course, so only take my perspective with a grain of salt. I think you appear to have a strong self-knowledge foundation, but may have waived some of it in exchange for access to somebody that requires you to put them above you. Also, when I mentioned my perspective of priority of studies versus relationships, that's not a common one. Certainly not one that can be easily sold to others. There have been a lot of women who have sold their own potential short in favor of relationships. It would be very easy to accidentally appear to be "that guy" if you tried to convince her of that. Especially since it sounds as if her lack of commitment is rooted in something that has nothing to do with you or her studies.

[travioli]

To dsayers:

 

 

 

I think you appear to have a strong self-knowledge foundation, but may have waived some of it in exchange for access to somebody that requires you to put them above you.

 That sounds very correct; a compromise I've made in order for access to a girl that is likable, but putting her in the position of power in the relationship.

 

 

Man...That all describes what I've kind of felt. You are right to say that it is abnormal and substantial. I was really shocked when she said she associated physical affection with the threat of rape. I was perplexed, and she said it was just that it made her so scared, but I didn't probe further. I didn't want to "distrust" her explanation of (roughly) why she was associating rape with physical affection.. but I'm not convinced that I got what is really the problem. Since she's new to this whole self-knowledge thing, I can understand the normalization.

That's going to be one of the primary things on the list of what I need to talk to her about.

 

To TheMatrixHasMe:

 

I think I've had about one healthy relationship; it has since ended, but it was two years with a girl named Makenzie. Best friends, not too romantic, even though at times we would go through flings. The truth is...I don't have a lot of personal experience in great relationships (thanks parents), but I think I have a a lot of knowledge about dysfunction in relationships, as extrapolating from about 3 past, long-term relationships that I've had, coupled with the knowledge I've gained from this show, and reading a couple of books about self-knowledge (i.e. Alice Miller). 
I did ask her to hold me hand, to which she did, which is what provoked the conversation we had about physical affection in relationships.

To BlackHeron:

I need that reinforcement. Thank you--I need to live those principles to maintain/get into a healthy relationship.

To Ola Nevander:

 

That's really revealing what you point out...I didn't know that I self-erased so much. Jesus. That makes me feel really worried--but I'm glad now that it has been addressed. I also feel like a relief, finally have identifying a problem like that. I should bring that up with her...damn. I should just bring this whole thread up with her haha. I definitely always felt in the passive seat with her..because I knew I liked her more than she liked me.

I liked her at the beginning because...well first let me say that I don't claim that these will all be the healthiest reasons to like her. I thought she was really curious about me, which is something I'm not used to; I felt really visible to her. She recognized my bits of courage in certain situations, like when I dropped all my statist friends my senior year of high school, or when I've told my high school band director off when I didn't want to be in the program anymore, etc. She reacted well (empathetically) when I would tell her about child abuse, and my own experiences with it. I like that she is so convicted to Architecture, and she knows why she likes it; I guess her artistic side is really pleasing to me. She's pretty ingenious in this design class together, and she's a really hard worker. We talk about how hard an Architecture career is, and she acknowledges that but says it's all worth it, because of how much she loves it. I really like that dedication to productiveness and purpose. She's also not afraid to legitimately judge others and speak the truth, which gets a really bad rap here (as I'm sure other places too). She get's called "judgy" in a negative way, but I think her appraisals are honest. She has a conviction to being (mostly) open and honest in our relationship, not afraid to tell me how she feels most of the time. I usually have to initiate the metacommunication, but she is still receptive. 

I suppose there isn't an overarching theme, or some huge thing that sticks out, but I like a lot of the qualities I've listed. I recognize some are for her qualities, and some are for what she does for me, but those were (and largely still are) my reasons to why I like her.


Hope I answered all you're questions haha. This is pretty important to me; the implications of my behavior in this relationship.
 

[Wuzzums]

How someone expresses physical affection is correlated with what relationships looked like to them as they were growing up, more specifically the father and mother dynamic.

 

If she never saw her parents express love for each other (holding hands, kissing, compliments, etc) then that's the norm for her. Physical affection may not repulse her, it may just be foreign, kinda like how bowing down instead of shaking hands is foreign to us. With this in mind she may have made the jump to rape as a way to justify her behavior to herself, it's very hard to see our own out-of-the-norm habits when they are the norm for us. And such a leap is not that surprising with all this ridiculous feminism propaganda everywhere. You know: being asked out for coffee is sexual abuse, all heterosexual sex is rape, men have to be taught how not to rape, etc.

 

If her parents did indeed express affection in a normal fashion then my guess is she's actively avoiding it, which suggests abuse like you said.

[travioli]

How someone expresses physical affection is correlated with what relationships looked like to them as they were growing up, more specifically the father and mother dynamic.

 

If she never saw her parents express love for each other (holding hands, kissing, compliments, etc) then that's the norm for her. Physical affection may not repulse her, it may just be foreign, kinda like how bowing down instead of shaking hands is foreign to us. With this in mind she may have made the jump to rape as a way to justify her behavior to herself, it's very hard to see our own out-of-the-norm habits when they are the norm for us. And such a leap is not that surprising with all this ridiculous feminism propaganda everywhere. You know: being asked out for coffee is sexual abuse, all heterosexual sex is rape, men have to be taught how not to rape, etc.

 

If her parents did indeed express affection in a normal fashion then my guess is she's actively avoiding it, which suggests abuse like you said.

 

We actually talked about that...how affection wasn't too big in her asian household. Especially in her parents, she didn't see them being affectionate a lot. They are first generation immigrants, and actually have gone through some dips in their marriage..I guess I failed to mention that. "Foreign to her" sounds like the right word, and we have established that as a possible reason in conversations together. 

[aFireInside]

She sound like a "nice girl" but with a very big problem. She can't express herself physically. **** (which is not a little problem) 

OR 

You can't express yourself either! 

because you are the man in the relationship not that I'm into all this cultural stuff but thats how relationships work. 

 

A thing that I find odd is that you say you can talk to her about all these topics and she receives them well. Then why can't you talk to her about your problem with the relationship. If you did, what was her response? I think thats an important thing that wasn't specified in the post. 

 

Also what would happen if you just hold her hand or hug her and kiss her ? what is holding you back ? (Im not trying to insult you I'm genuinely curious because i had this happen to me before in a past relationship) 

 

If your going to stay your going to have to work hard on this, start asking question and if she responds well to your concerns then i would say give it a shot! 

Good luck i hope everything works out. : ) 

 

-------------------------------------

One side note : I noticed that allot of people seem to respond well to philosophy but that could just be them conforming to the moment. 

                         Look for action, if she acts upon the philosophy then that mean she is listening. (if she agrees) 

                         Allot of women can be "Yes Men " because they are thought to not rock the boat, just agree. 

[travioli]

That's helpful, Ivan.  

She sound like a "nice girl" but with a very big problem. She can't express herself physically. **** (which is not a little problem) 

OR 

You can't express yourself either! 

because you are the man in the relationship not that I'm into all this cultural stuff but thats how relationships work. 

 

This is a good description of the pickle I'm in, haha. She's just not comfortable enough with it yet, which I have to heed to. I am going to ask her more on her uncomfortability with it, though.

 

A thing that I find odd is that you say you can talk to her about all these topics and she receives them well. Then why can't you talk to her about your problem with the relationship. If you did, what was her response? I think thats an important thing that wasn't specified in the post. 

That's a good thing to point out. My courage isn't perfect for sure, but I'll be sure to post an update soon, when I do bring this all up. Whenever she makes time. Or I inspire her to make time. ANYWAY haha.

 

 

Especially helpful was the last bit, the part on looking for action, to see if she isn't just saying "yes" in the moment. She always says she wants to have the courage to stand up to her not so nice friends, but hasn't yet, so that's a good example that comes to mind.

[MrCapitalism]

How do you feel about the thought of teaching her how to be intimate? It looks like, since you have more experience, that you could both benefit from the sharing of your knowledge.

[travioli]

Okay, here is the update:

 

We went on a chilly walk last night for about 20 minutes, and ended the relationship. She finally got done with her schoolwork, and yet again was the initiator of going outside. In hindsight, I could tell she was going to break it off with me, from the way she was and had been acting all of yesterday.

She basically said she was ending the relationship because she didn't become romantically inclined to me--i.e. I'm just more of a friend for her. I probed a little bit, and this translated to "I really like your character, your knowledge about prerequisites for healthy relationships, your intellect, etc. but I just am not sexually attracted to you." This adds up to the odd way she talked about how she was afraid to begin the physical affection with me--she just made up some pretty petty lies about being "scared of rape", in this context. I then asked her what was unattractive about me, to which she replied that she didn't really know. Then I asked her if she ever had been attracted sexually to a guy, and she said she had been once. I asked her why, and she basically said she didn't really know, it just "clicked". So basically, her intellectual appraisal of me is good, but her sex libido just doesn't follow--something I found unattractive, because that's a sign of not being integrated, and lacking in self-knowledge. This reminded me of "FDR481 Call in Show: Love", and how Stef said he was suspicious of girls who used the whole "I'm not sexually attracted to him" copout in relationships, and how that meant that they weren't attracted to guys with better character, but rather more asshole-ish guys.

I told her about me posting on the board, and how I basically self-erased in the relationship. It was all about me "waiting", i.e. heeding to her needs, and not trying to negotiate with her on most all of her needs such as her time available to spend with me, her willingness for physical attraction, her initiation of more serious topics, etc. In this way, I gave her pretty much all the "power" in the relationship, which is one reason I think I didn't come off as attractive to her, (because generally I think I am pretty attractive). Not asserting my needs and attempting to negotiate was probably not too hot for her, even though I felt like I had no choice and I was giving her what she said she wanted. She exclaimed that she really respected me giving her the space she wanted, and giving her time to do studies, etc. 
This related with "FDR836 Sex, Love, and Money", in how I was basically giving her needs more importance than mine, and acting like I had to be a "Me +" in regards to her needs to basically wait around till she was ready to do anything, from spending time together to being affectionate. 

 

Something interesting that happened a couple of times while we were dating, (2 short weeks), was she also talked about how she thought I was "More intellectually and academically mature than she was", and she was really devaluing herself. She brought that up again last night, and basically we talked and came to the conclusion she just didn't really feel worthy of me liking her and just "couldn't really believe it". I bet that didn't help the fact that she wasn't attracted to me, because she didn't even feel like she was worth me in that way, I suppose. Maybe I was lying to myself and not having my standards high enough for her, and maybe she has some self-worth issues; a bit of both, for sure, but I wonder what the balance is.

Typing this, I question her honesty in our relationship. I know the reasons she gave for not being physically attracted to me are bogus now, and she finally told the truth, but I wonder if the "I need my space, and I'm always busy", (the busy part I can more understand), but I wonder if that is also a copout for not really feeling attracted to me, and basically not being honest with me, (which we talked about the voluminous importance of doing so, even if it made the other person upset), because it would "inconvenience" my feelings. I took that as a sign that she wasn't really ready for a good romantic relationship. So in a sense, she didn't walk the walk, even though she talked the talk. Actions actions actions haha. 

I also told her that I was considering cutting it off because I couldn't tell myself that I was valuable and had a lot to offer in a relationship, while being in a relationship where the other person didn't value me like I think I should be valued. That'd be a conflict with my professed values and my actions, and not living with integrity. She kinda understood that. So I didn't come out of it too upset. I told her that she should be conscious of everything that was happening, and hopefully that I gave her a good template of the foundations of a healthy relationship; learning about each other's childhoods, past relationships, virtues, communication, the nature of our emotions, etc. I just wanted to learn as much as I could from this interaction, because I think I have a lot of introspection to do about this whole self-erasure thing. I know this is a lot, but you guys are used to Stefan's podcasts d:

[BlackHeron]

Maybe she just isn't ready to get into a more adult, intimate relationship with somebody.  Maybe she is just "not that into you" although you do say she initiated everything up to this point.  Did you say she never had a prior "boyfriend?"  But yet she initiated things with you, which is a very straightforward thing to do coming from someone with very limited experience. Maybe she is just testing the waters.  That's a good strategy for a young woman, or a young man.

 

You guys are both very young, and your brains are not yet fully developed.   I would say let nature take its course here.  She could always come around for another pass if she is still interested, or maybe later when she is more ready for intimacy.  Plus there will be many others in the sea.

 

There are billions of women in the world, many of them are broken and/or messed up in such ways that make them poor choices to get into a relationship with (this goes for men as well.)  Of the ones that are not broken a good number of them may not be compatible with you or share the same interests as you.  Finding a friend is hard enough, but someone to be more intimate with is a long process of sifting through hundreds if not thousands of potential women (or men) out there until you find a virtuous, non-broken candidate to even go to the next step with. The process can, and probably should take years.  Don't settle for the first piece of driftwood that washes up on your shores.   You are young, have fun, date around, get a feel for the geography of the ocean you are fishing in.  Don't fill your lifetime bag limit on the first day out on the boat. 

[aFireInside]

Okay, here is the update:

 

We went on a chilly walk last night for about 20 minutes, and ended the relationship. She finally got done with her schoolwork, and yet again was the initiator of going outside. In hindsight, I could tell she was going to break it off with me, from the way she was and had been acting all of yesterday.

She basically said she was ending the relationship because she didn't become romantically inclined to me--i.e. I'm just more of a friend for her. I probed a little bit, and this translated to "I really like your character, your knowledge about prerequisites for healthy relationships, your intellect, etc. but I just am not sexually attracted to you." This adds up to the odd way she talked about how she was afraid to begin the physical affection with me--she just made up some pretty petty lies about being "scared of rape", in this context. I then asked her what was unattractive about me, to which she replied that she didn't really know. Then I asked her if she ever had been attracted sexually to a guy, and she said she had been once. I asked her why, and she basically said she didn't really know, it just "clicked". So basically, her intellectual appraisal of me is good, but her sex libido just doesn't follow--something I found unattractive, because that's a sign of not being integrated, and lacking in self-knowledge. This reminded me of "FDR481 Call in Show: Love", and how Stef said he was suspicious of girls who used the whole "I'm not sexually attracted to him" copout in relationships, and how that meant that they weren't attracted to guys with better character, but rather more asshole-ish guys.

 

I told her about me posting on the board, and how I basically self-erased in the relationship. It was all about me "waiting", i.e. heeding to her needs, and not trying to negotiate with her on most all of her needs such as her time available to spend with me, her willingness for physical attraction, her initiation of more serious topics, etc. In this way, I gave her pretty much all the "power" in the relationship, which is one reason I think I didn't come off as attractive to her, (because generally I think I am pretty attractive). Not asserting my needs and attempting to negotiate was probably not too hot for her, even though I felt like I had no choice and I was giving her what she said she wanted. She exclaimed that she really respected me giving her the space she wanted, and giving her time to do studies, etc. 

This related with "FDR836 Sex, Love, and Money", in how I was basically giving her needs more importance than mine, and acting like I had to be a "Me +" in regards to her needs to basically wait around till she was ready to do anything, from spending time together to being affectionate. 

 

Something interesting that happened a couple of times while we were dating, (2 short weeks), was she also talked about how she thought I was "More intellectually and academically mature than she was", and she was really devaluing herself. She brought that up again last night, and basically we talked and came to the conclusion she just didn't really feel worthy of me liking her and just "couldn't really believe it". I bet that didn't help the fact that she wasn't attracted to me, because she didn't even feel like she was worth me in that way, I suppose. Maybe I was lying to myself and not having my standards high enough for her, and maybe she has some self-worth issues; a bit of both, for sure, but I wonder what the balance is.

 

Typing this, I question her honesty in our relationship. I know the reasons she gave for not being physically attracted to me are bogus now, and she finally told the truth, but I wonder if the "I need my space, and I'm always busy", (the busy part I can more understand), but I wonder if that is also a copout for not really feeling attracted to me, and basically not being honest with me, (which we talked about the voluminous importance of doing so, even if it made the other person upset), because it would "inconvenience" my feelings. I took that as a sign that she wasn't really ready for a good romantic relationship. So in a sense, she didn't walk the walk, even though she talked the talk. Actions actions actions haha. 

 

I also told her that I was considering cutting it off because I couldn't tell myself that I was valuable and had a lot to offer in a relationship, while being in a relationship where the other person didn't value me like I think I should be valued. That'd be a conflict with my professed values and my actions, and not living with integrity. She kinda understood that. So I didn't come out of it too upset. I told her that she should be conscious of everything that was happening, and hopefully that I gave her a good template of the foundations of a healthy relationship; learning about each other's childhoods, past relationships, virtues, communication, the nature of our emotions, etc. I just wanted to learn as much as I could from this interaction, because I think I have a lot of introspection to do about this whole self-erasure thing. I know this is a lot, but you guys are used to Stefan's podcasts d:

 

 

Sorry, Sorry... I know how this feels I had a very similar break up . : ( 

 

Frankly I think she is full of BS and gave the typical excuses to break up .

What exactly does I'm not sexually attacked to you mean? She thought you where a smart loving guy but you just don't tickle her pickle. (thats extremely shallow && and rude to you ) 

 

 

And when a girl or guy says i need time  thats already a bad sign. If you need time don't go looking for relationships or don't get into relationships in the first place. 

 

 

At least in my humble opinion. 

This happened to me, i had a girlfriend who said we don't have time to go out and spend much time. Its hard to meet up because we don't drive yet. Im going to college and I'm not going to have time. 

I confronted her and said yes we do have time, and we could go out this week...etc 

 

This went on for a few weeks then she broke up with me. 

 

So when people say i don't have time to spend time with you, just confront them and ask then why are we in this relationship. 

 

 

Again I'm sorry this happened, but at least its a learning experience. 

Just by listening to what you have to say about this experience, Im sure you can find someone else and have a healthy relationship.

[dsayers]

Her loss, mate. You are in touch with yourself, able to communicate, expressive... there's no turnoffs here and if she approached you, then we know you you're not physically repulsive to her. Maybe she's looking to recreate unprocessed trauma, a horrible side effect of not pursuing self-knowledge.

 

Though I will say this is a perfect example of why you have to be happy with yourself first and why erasing yourself for somebody else is a bad strategy. With win-win negotiation in mind, it's not too hard to meet the needs of others without sacrificing yourself. The more they are worthy of you, the more they'll want for that too.

[travioli]

Maybe she's looking to recreate unprocessed trauma, a horrible side effect of not pursuing self-knowledge.

 

In what way is the way she is acting her recreating unprocessed trauma?

 

 

 

Though I will say this is a perfect example of why you have to be happy with yourself first and why erasing yourself for somebody else is a bad strategy. With win-win negotiation in mind, it's not too hard to meet the needs of others without sacrificing yourself. The more they are worthy of you, the more they'll want for that too.

Too true. I need to conquer this self-erasure problem. It's funny...because I'm an intellectual advocate of Ayn Rand's conception of selfishness, and that sacrifice is a bad/self-destructive thing, but then here I am in my personal relationships not understanding it on an emotional level.

[dsayers]

In what way is the way she is acting her recreating unprocessed trauma?

 

I don't know that that's the case. It's just a theory. The theory is that she experienced trauma at some. Let's say somebody took from her, sexually. Here you are, not taking from her sexually, honoring her reserve, trying to talk to her, etc. She isn't prepared to face the truth of her abuser and you're not taking from her sexually and in fact are trying to help her work through it, which is bringing her closer to facing her abuser, which she cannot handle. So you are no longer attractive to her.

 

Again, just a theory. I hope from that explanation you can derive a template as to how other trauma could play out. Maybe the abuse wasn't sexual and was instead verbally abusive whereas you're not verbally abusive to her and she's not ready to admit her caregivers were abusive or expose her to abusive people.

 

Does this answer your question?

[travioli]

Yeah, that answers it. The whole growth panic;  The need to normalize abusive behavior from her caregivers, so she would have to find people who act out that same way as they did, or else she will have to face the reality that she suffered evil by being with someone who is their opposite. I don't think I'll know, but I don't think it was sexual. I think that whole ploy of her saying "I'm afraid of rape and I associate that with sex" was a copout to basically tell me she didn't think I was attractive. Maybe not...but when I asked her about that and expressed my concern, that's what I understood from her. Possibly verbal. She doesn't like that her traditional asian mom made expectations for her, and she always talks about how "society" tries to put you in a box; I always tell her to not mistake her mom for society...but she doesn't receive it as well as pretty much everything else I say.

[MrCapitalism]

That's a bummer man. So what is it that you think made you choose her as your romantic interest? As opposed to the other women that were possibilities.

 

How would you describe the romantic relationship of your parents?

[travioli]

How do you feel about the thought of teaching her how to be intimate? It looks like, since you have more experience, that you could both benefit from the sharing of your knowledge.

That's what I was kinda doing, or trying. But apparently it wasn't "attractive" enough for her, even though she said she really appreciated and respected our conversations about the topic. I felt like I wasn't given the chance, particularly, to be intimate in any other form than in conversation. I didn't negotiate with her about that, and it felt like I didn't have any power to negotiate. I don't know if that would be possible to teach her specifically, while being in a romantic relationship. She just felt too uncomfortable with that, i.e. she wasn't attracted to me. 

 

That's a bummer man. So what is it that you think made you choose her as your romantic interest? As opposed to the other women that were possibilities.

 

As for the "other women that were possibilities"...there aren't really many haha. Either they don't come around, or I don't really go searching for the. I haven't been actively looking for a partner, and I guess it was a spontaneous opportunity that I thought I had. The reasons that we started getting involved with each other was basically proximity, though; same scholarship group, shared 2 classes together, she lives across the hall from me on campus, etc. I mentioned earlier the reasons that I liked her, quoted below.

 

 

I liked her at the beginning because...well first let me say that I don't claim that these will all be the healthiest reasons to like her. I thought she was really curious about me, which is something I'm not used to; I felt really visible to her. She recognized my bits of courage in certain situations, like when I dropped all my statist friends my senior year of high school, or when I've told my high school band director off when I didn't want to be in the program anymore, etc. She reacted well (empathetically) when I would tell her about child abuse, and my own experiences with it. I like that she is so convicted to Architecture, and she knows why she likes it; I guess her artistic side is really pleasing to me. She's pretty ingenious in this design class together, and she's a really hard worker. We talk about how hard an Architecture career is, and she acknowledges that but says it's all worth it, because of how much she loves it. I really like that dedication to productiveness and purpose. She's also not afraid to legitimately judge others and speak the truth, which gets a really bad rap here (as I'm sure other places too). She get's called "judgy" in a negative way, but I think her appraisals are honest. She has a conviction to being (mostly) open and honest in our relationship, not afraid to tell me how she feels most of the time. I usually have to initiate the metacommunication, but she is still receptive. 

I suppose there isn't an overarching theme, or some huge thing that sticks out, but I like a lot of the qualities I've listed. I recognize some are for her qualities, and some are for what she does for me, but those were (and largely still are) my reasons to why I like her.

 

 

 

How would you describe the romantic relationship of your parents?

 

Oh geeze. Haha. Basically, my dad is the breadwinner. A bit of a workaholic, but he is a successful supervisor and general contractor for a construction company. He really does a lot of things for the company, and works on multiple job sites throughout Utah. He got an associates in Construction/Architecture or something.My mom used to be an accountant, but now she works as a secretary for a small methodist church. She's been trying to leave the job for 2 years but always puts it off, putting herself down that she doesn't really have marketable skills, and how she doesn't want to go back to school (if that's the only way to gain skills, as I've challenged with her). Taken that into account, I basically see my dad has more qualities than my mom in the relationship, and brings more to the table. As far as how they relate emotionally, I don't ever remember them showing too much affection, or being open about it, or anything like that. My dad once said "sometimes it hasn't been the perfect marriage, but we're fine most all of the time." So it sounds like they don't really have a super strong, principled, etc. relationship. They converse a lot, but I never hear them talking about their relationship, or trying to teach me any important things about relationships, (by example or by words). To be honest, I don't really know a ton about it, something that I've been meaning to ask about lately. I get the feeling that it's kind of "something we don't talk about", because of the fear/awkwardness I feel when I start asking them about their relationship.A thing I've seen in relation to my recent ex, it seems like my dad compromises for my mom, in terms of their values and virtues (using those terms in a loose sense). I bet that last part has something to do with how I usually get with girls who I fundamentally don't think are equal to me (as was the case with this last girl). I hope that description is useful.