Animal Abuse

[Philosphorous]

Here is Stefan's take on the subject (toward the end):

 

He addresses factory farming, animal testing, etc. However, he props up property in the entire video, and he never questions capitalism.

 

Part of the video he said someone might buy land to build a tower that would obstruct someone's view of the ocean. Well, let's think about that:

 

1) Cut down all the trees in that area. Lots of animals live in trees. They either die or are displaced. (That's pretty abusive.)

2) Extract the material from the Earth to build the tower. Animals live everywhere. Suppose, for example, we're talking about mining to get metals for the wiring. Bugs live in the mines. Are bugs not animals subject to abuse?

3) Transport it all. That all requires infrastructure, which, of course, requires getting nature out of the way, which requires killing or displacing animals.

 

I think what he means is, "don't abuse animals we favor, but if they get in the way of free market capitalism, move or destroy them."

 

Capitalism is making living things dead for profit. That's all it is.

 

Also, teaching children not to harm certain animals is not going to stop deviant behavior. Capitalism is hierarchies, which teaches children that humans have the right to buy and sell the Earth because... well, we can. Trees are "below" us, for example, and in the way of a shopping mall, so move them. Trees, rivers, rocks, the land, the air, animals, etc. are not subject to the non-aggression principle--only humans.

[dsayers]

Capitalism is making living things dead for profit. That's all it is.

 

What living things died at the hands of your capitalist use of your body, time, and energy to make this post?

 

It tickles me to watch somebody malign capitalism while not realizing that their every action in life is an acceptance and an affirmation of capitalism. Your contempt is misplaced, brother. If you're going to stand up in front of the world and preach having an answer (which you haven't even done that), you should have a grasp of the material first.

[Philosphorous]

What living things died at the hands of your capitalist use of your body, time, and energy to make this post?

 

It tickles me to watch somebody malign capitalism while not realizing that their every action in life is an acceptance and an affirmation of capitalism. Your contempt is misplaced, brother. If you're going to stand up in front of the world and preach having an answer (which you haven't even done that), you should have a grasp of the material first.

 

What a surprise--a character attack. It's really too bad that Molyneux made that safe and acceptable. Attacking the messenger solves every problem every time.

 

Hey--do you pay your taxes? Do you follow all laws? You don't have to; go live in the wilderness and you won't have to do either. But, since you probably do both of those things, everything you say is now invalid according to the Molyneux anarcho-capitalists (which is an oxymoron, since anarchy = no hierarchies, and capitalism is nothing but hierarchies).

 

The answer is Stone Age living, which worked for hundreds of thousands of years and is beyond debate. But, nobody wants to give up their toys, so what you're asking is how humans can keep murdering the planet and still live on it.

[cab21]

you are the one recommending going to stone age living, so why aren't you?

[dsayers]

What a surprise--a character attack.

 

The only character attack I see is downvoting my post for identifying an inconsistency in your position. Which by the way, you did not answer my question.

 

Capitalism comes from self-ownership, which you are exercising when you make a post. You're essentially watching person A attack person B with a hammer and blaming the hammer. That's not very rigorous, nor would it be a character attack to share the observation that your contempt is misplaced.

 

I can't really comment on the off-topic rant that followed other than to say that it, like the opening post, suggests unprocessed trauma that has nothing to do with the symbols you're offering up as if they are the source.

[Philosphorous]

you are the one recommending going to stone age living, so why aren't you?

 

Because I'd die. I don't (yet) have the skills.

 

Also, if I do and some asshole nukes the world, please explain to me how that my personal withdrawal helped anyone.

 

And again, as I said above, why are you paying your taxes and obeying laws? You could move off into the wilderness and you wouldn't have to do either.

The only character attack I see is downvoting my post for identifying an inconsistency in your position. Which by the way, you did not answer my question.

 

Capitalism comes from self-ownership, which you are exercising when you make a post. You're essentially watching person A attack person B with a hammer and blaming the hammer. That's not very rigorous, nor would it be a character attack to share the observation that your contempt is misplaced.

 

I can't really comment on the off-topic rant that followed other than to say that it, like the opening post, suggests unprocessed trauma that has nothing to do with the symbols you're offering up as if they are the source.

 

Here; let me help you:

What living things died at the hands of your capitalist use of your body, time, and energy to make this post?

 

It tickles me to watch somebody malign capitalism while not realizing that their every action in life is an acceptance and an affirmation of capitalism.

 

All non-arguments aimed at decrying me instead of the common sense notion that we shouldn't be murdering the planet for profit.

 

Capitalism is turning natural resources into products, making money, allocating resources, or any other number of euphemisms for making living things dead. This post is a personal choice, not me making profit at the expense of someone else.

 

"I can't really comment on the off-topic rant that followed other than to say that it, like the opening post, suggests unprocessed trauma that has nothing to do with the symbols you're offering up as if they are the source."

 

Ugh... More Molyneux. Forget simply acknowleding that we are a crash course with destruction. It must my personal experiences.

 

This, for example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/un-environment-programme-_n_684562.html

 

That's totally my unprocessed trauma, not reality. Also, you calling out my arguments as something wrong with me (unprocessed trauma) is yet another character attack.

 

Do you have anything else?

 

How about this: Sone Age living worked for hundreds of thousands of years. Humans lived with the planet taking only what it gave instead of enslaving and domesticating our fellow Earthlings. Please explain to me why anarcho-capitalism, which is pure theory (and horribly flawed at that) is something someone should consider over what worked for the vast vast VAST majority of human history.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

The only character attack I see is downvoting my post for identifying an inconsistency in your position. Which by the way, you did not answer my question.

 

Capitalism comes from self-ownership, which you are exercising when you make a post. You're essentially watching person A attack person B with a hammer and blaming the hammer. That's not very rigorous, nor would it be a character attack to share the observation that your contempt is misplaced.

 

I can't really comment on the off-topic rant that followed other than to say that it, like the opening post, suggests unprocessed trauma that has nothing to do with the symbols you're offering up as if they are the source.

 

What living things died at the hands of your capitalist use of your body, time, and energy to make this post?

 

It tickles me to watch somebody malign capitalism while not realizing that their every action in life is an acceptance and an affirmation of capitalism. Your contempt is misplaced, brother. If you're going to stand up in front of the world and preach having an answer (which you haven't even done that), you should have a grasp of the material first.

I would advise you or anyone not to talk to deepgreenresistance. His position is religious and he's the most abusive and sanctimonious person I've encountered on FDR. This guy believes trees are conscious and that something called "earth" is our ruler and that the length of time a species spent living a certain way means it is somehow better or correct and romantic myths about primitive man and any number of superstitions and fallacies. He refused to even talk about this subject on the call in show when invited to do so. He's a religious crackpot and deserves to be ignored. 

[Philosphorous]

I would advise you or anyone not to talk to deepgreenresistance. His position is religious and he's the most abusive and sanctimonious person I've encountered on FDR. This guy believes trees are conscious and that something called "earth" is our ruler and that the length of time a species spent living a certain way means it is somehow better or correct and romantic myths about primitive man and any number of superstitions and fallacies. He refused to even talk about this subject on the call in show when invited to do so. He's a religious crackpot and deserves to be ignored. 

 

Prove to me that trees are not conscious please. Your statements epitomize the arrogance of the human species in thinking that it has the capability or right to determine what or how other species think or feel. Considering the really shitty job humans do on themselves and others, your speciesist position seems really ridiculous.

 

I wanted to cover a range of topics on the show and did exactly that. When someone is as conditioned as Stefan Molyneux, it's hard to justify trying to introduce ideas like living sustainably. He was a software engineer and capitalism worked for him, so it's unlikely he'll change position from that.

 

Capitalism began with agriculture. The market was free and it turned into what we had today. It has had its chance and thousands of years to prove itself, and it has been an utter failure.

 

Stone Age living, once again, worked for many millions of years. That fact is undeniable. We wouldn't be here if it was wrong. It is the only chance we have of survival.

 

You were born from the Earth and to it you shall return--just like everything else. How much more evidence do you need that it is your master and, despite what capitalists tell you, you do not own it and are not its master?

 

Lastly, I'm an atheist, but good looking out?

 

More character attacks. I understand. Stone Age living cannot be debated.

[ProfessionalTeabagger]

I would advise you or anyone not to talk to deepgreenresistance. His position is religious and he's the most abusive and sanctimonious person I've encountered on FDR. This guy believes trees are conscious and that something called "earth" is our ruler and that the length of time a species spent living a certain way means it is somehow better or correct and romantic myths about primitive man and any number of superstitions and fallacies. He refused to even talk about this subject on the call in show when invited to do so. He's a religious crackpot and deserves to be ignored. 

And Dsayers, I offer his response as evidence. 

[PatrickC]

DeepGreen, forget about animals fella.. From my personal xp this has everything to do with your childhood and barely nothing to do with cruelty to animals and in particularly, 'trees'.

 

If you start thinking trees are conscious like humans, then you know there's a problem.

[Philosphorous]

DeepGreen, forget about animals fella.. From my personal xp this has everything to do with your childhood and barely nothing to do with cruelty to animals and in particularly, 'trees'.

 

If you start thinking trees are conscious like humans, then you know there's a problem.

 

No; trees are not like humans. But to assume, using the Human Yardstick, that trees are not conscious is a little ridiculous, don't you think? It's like the old Cartesian argument that animals don't feel pain because they don't express it like humans.

 

Does anyone on this forum do anything except attack the messenger and talk about childhood? I know that's all SM does, but I didn't realize that all of his followers do the same.

[dsayers]

All non-arguments

 

"Capitalism is making living things dead for profit" is not an argument. You cannot put forth a universal standard (making an argument), then make an exception for yourself. That what you said is both not an argument and patently false was the point of my probing question. See, you typing that is a capitalist activity. Since you decreed that capitalism is making living things dead for profit, this means that the act of you posting it made something living dead. OR it means that your theory needs to be revised.

 

Namely, I think your understanding of capitalism is lacking. Not a big deal; I see people make the exact same mistake all the time. And it just so happens you're in a place full of people who can help you to understand what capitalism is and where it comes from. But without an understanding, you can responsibly make such large statements, without an expectation of your error being called to task.

 

We live in a seriously fucked up world. I don't fault you for being angry. I think the anger is wasted if you aim your contempt at that which doesn't warrant it.

 

@tea: Thanks for the input. I don't usually reveal auto-hidden posts, but did this once since I didn't recognize the screen name.

[cab21]

Because I'd die. I don't (yet) have the skills.

 

Also, if I do and some asshole nukes the world, please explain to me how that my personal withdrawal helped anyone.

 

And again, as I said above, why are you paying your taxes and obeying laws? You could move off into the wilderness and you wouldn't have to do either.

 

so you don't have the skills to live in the stone age or experience doing so, but you want others to live in the stone age and say it's the only way?

 

there is a difference between paying taxes and charging taxes.

by not living in the stone age,but advocating that people do live in the stone age, that is like advocating that people charge taxes.

by paying taxes, that does not mean i am advocating for taxes.

by living in a industrial age, but advocating a stone age, that's like not paying taxes

 

if you don't and someone nukes the world, how did your lack of living what you advocated have helped anyone?

i'm not telling people not to pay taxes, just that i think it's violent to demand taxes be paid.

[PatrickC]

Does anyone on this forum do anything except attack the messenger and talk about childhood? I know that's all SM does, but I didn't realize that all of his followers do the same.

 

This is why you will never make any sense on this forum.. Caring about the consciousness of trees and then insulting the curiosity of those who attempt to help you seems to be standard for those that come here to troll.

[Philosphorous]

This is why you will never make any sense on this forum.. Caring about the consciousness of trees and then insulting the curiosity of those who attempt to help you seems to be standard for those that come here to troll.

 

Assuming that humans can judge consciousness (read: compare it to how humans view the world) is so incredibly arrogant.

 

You are coming from a speciesist, human supremacist willfully limited point of view. Sure, if you think humans have the capacity to judge the rest of the world... Well, good for you I guess. We know shit about shit.

[nathanm]

You know what you never see?  Amish people coming into online forums and arguing about topics with The English.  Hmm, there may be a lesson there.

[PatrickC]

Assuming that humans can judge consciousness (read: compare it to how humans view the world) is so incredibly arrogant.

 

You are coming from a speciesist, human supremacist willfully limited point of view. Sure, if you think humans have the capacity to judge the rest of the world... Well, good for you I guess. We know shit about shit.

 

It's funny, given the above response, because throughout your diatribe here on this thread, you have been constantly asserting you could judge (human) consciousness.

[Philosphorous]

It's funny, given the above response, because throughout your diatribe here on this thread, you have been constantly asserting you could judge (human) consciousness.

 

Well yeah, since I'm a human. How does what you just said disprove that humans can't judge other species except by the Human Yardstick (i.e. how human they act/are)?

[PatrickC]

No thanks, I have my fair share of Leftist twaddle I must endure in my everyday life, without having to endure it here as well.

 

My best advice would be learn math and logic and apply those principles to everything else. Toodles!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e03hQELqvMo