Openeye Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_nsV99ho4 Just wanted to post this here to get input from anyone is interested. The article being covered is interesting http://www.democracyjournal.org/32/the-voluntarism-fantasy.php?page=all There is also a libertarian who calls in and starts a debate with Sam. It starts at about 1:03:00 Stuff like this is the reason I'm always in a state of cognitive dissonance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_nsV99ho4 Just wanted to post this here to get input from anyone is interested. The article being covered is interesting http://www.democracyjournal.org/32/the-voluntarism-fantasy.php?page=all There is also a libertarian who calls in and starts a debate with Sam. It starts at about 1:03:00 Stuff like this is the reason I'm always in a state of cognitive dissonance They spend the first 15 minutes tearing down the image of the 19th century libertarian paradise. The problem is that no libertarian/anarchist I follow argues that the 19th century was an ideal era of non-Statism. We anarcho-capitalists regularly point out the central role of the State in creating and enabling chattel slavery. Murray Rothbard wrote some excellent books on the history of banking, and it's been Statism through and through since the 1500s at least. Also, one of Stefan's main points on the history of the State and economics is that the State is always as large as it can possibly be, because any larger and it would kill its host. The State in the USA of the 19th century was smaller than it is now, but that's because it had to be smaller, because the economy was smaller, because technology enabled only a tiny fraction of today's economic productivity. Also, speaking of technology, remember that a huge amount of hardship in the 19th century and earlier was due to technological limitations and a lack of scientific knowledge that is commonplace today. The best example I can think of is the germ theory of disease (i.e., infectious microorganisms), which was not widely known or accepted until the end of the 19th century. By way of comparison, we've understood microorganisms for about 5 years longer than city dwellers have had access to electric lights. Straight-up Marxist Communism predates the common, accepted scientific knowledge of bacteria, for crying out loud, by over 20 years. If you want to blame the difficulties of life 150+ years ago on any single cause, it was not a lack of government. Blame it on our ignorance of microbiology. And don't forget that there was the omnipresent threat of rampant starvation, which was not solved until the invention of nitrogen-fixing synthetic fertilizer in the Haber-Bosch process in 1915. Pointing to the difficulties of life before then, for the vast majority of people, and blaming it on the lack of welfare statism, is either ignorant of technological history, or just dishonest. Leftists like these two clowns always love to give credit to massive State intrusions for anything good in life. They are expert credit-thieves. Take feminism, for example. They love to tout how huge social equality improvements were achieved through feminist legislation. Well, it wasn't legislation that freed women. It was electrical devices -- vacuum cleaners, mixers, clothes washers, sewing machines and dish washers. Before Mr. Hoover and Mr. Singer made their devices available to almost every home, housework required 14+ hours a day of labor. Widespread female leisure was the result of technological advances that are not much older than a few senior citizens who are still alive today. So, I couldn't get past that first 15 minutes of strawman-bashing. He's really had enough abuse, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 You have to hit them with "The non-voluntary reality". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRosado Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 They spend the first 15 minutes tearing down the image of the 19th century libertarian paradise. The problem is that no libertarian/anarchist I follow argues that the 19th century was an ideal era of non-Statism. We anarcho-capitalists regularly point out the central role of the State in creating and enabling chattel slavery. Murray Rothbard wrote some excellent books on the history of banking, and it's been Statism through and through since the 1500s at least. Also, one of Stefan's main points on the history of the State and economics is that the State is always as large as it can possibly be, because any larger and it would kill its host. The State in the USA of the 19th century was smaller than it is now, but that's because it had to be smaller, because the economy was smaller, because technology enabled only a tiny fraction of today's economic productivity. Also, speaking of technology, remember that a huge amount of hardship in the 19th century and earlier was due to technological limitations and a lack of scientific knowledge that is commonplace today. The best example I can think of is the germ theory of disease (i.e., infectious microorganisms), which was not widely known or accepted until the end of the 19th century. By way of comparison, we've understood microorganisms for about 5 years longer than city dwellers have had access to electric lights. Straight-up Marxist Communism predates the common, accepted scientific knowledge of bacteria, for crying out loud, by over 20 years. If you want to blame the difficulties of life 150+ years ago on any single cause, it was not a lack of government. Blame it on our ignorance of microbiology. And don't forget that there was the omnipresent threat of rampant starvation, which was not solved until the invention of nitrogen-fixing synthetic fertilizer in the Haber-Bosch process in 1915. Pointing to the difficulties of life before then, for the vast majority of people, and blaming it on the lack of welfare statism, is either ignorant of technological history, or just dishonest. Leftists like these two clowns always love to give credit to massive State intrusions for anything good in life. They are expert credit-thieves. Take feminism, for example. They love to tout how huge social equality improvements were achieved through feminist legislation. Well, it wasn't legislation that freed women. It was electrical devices -- vacuum cleaners, mixers, clothes washers, sewing machines and dish washers. Before Mr. Hoover and Mr. Singer made their devices available to almost every home, housework required 14+ hours a day of labor. Widespread female leisure was the result of technological advances that are not much older than a few senior citizens who are still alive today. So, I couldn't get past that first 15 minutes of strawman-bashing. He's really had enough abuse, I think.Very excellent & solid points I would just add that statism has existed since before 1500s for as long as government has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openeye Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 The part of their conversation that I thought was the most interesting was when they were talking about the feasibility of charity as a substitute for social welfare programs. They argue that those who give to charity tend to only give to certain groups that conform to their belief systems and if given the choice they would not give to other groups due to what can only be considered bigotry. They also talk about how charity massively declines during times of economic instability thus creating an inconsistent form of income for those who would depend on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRosado Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Why did the libertarian caller get all fired up & act douchey, relax bro lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domehouse Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_nsV99ho4 Just wanted to post this here to get input from anyone is interested. The article being covered is interesting http://www.democracyjournal.org/32/the-voluntarism-fantasy.php?page=all There is also a libertarian who calls in and starts a debate with Sam. It starts at about 1:03:00 Stuff like this is the reason I'm always in a state of cognitive dissonance Sedar seems to be a party line democrat.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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