Unschooling Idea for Working Parents

[lbnuke]

Hi everyone. I'm hoping to get some feedback and thoughts on an idea that I have for educating my son and potentially some other children of like minded individuals, at least from an education perspective like minded.

 

I think this idea can work well if the group is on the same page in terms of how to run things. At this point, I'm really looking to engage in a discussion to hear others' ideas. This is a controversial topic, I have found, when I discuss it with people face to face. I get the knee jerk reactions of this won't work, they need to be in school, "how will they be socialize" (love that one), etc. Honest feedback from intelligent, open-minded, perhaps experienced individuals is what I'm looking for.

 

As a side note, I was extremely impressed with the recent Freedomain call in show where Izzy helped host with Stef. She held her own and exhibited a true curiosity about each of the callers that I myself have difficulties with at times. She exhibited characteristics that I admire and would like my son to learn as well.

 

I am an entrepreneur who runs a home business. My motivations for doing so is for freedom of what to do with my professional time and flexibility with my time to be able to spend time with my son, who is 4 years old, but currently attends a private preschool.

 

The idea that I have, that is only in the infancy at this point, but I think certainly worth discussing is to join a group of families where a single parent, or both parents, can take a day off of work a week to provide educational experiences for the group of children. For example, I would take Mondays to provide opportunities for my son, and the children of two of three other families. This can come in the form of home based learnings, field trips, nature walks, reading, writing times etc. Anything. I typically subscribe to an unschooling method, but want to have at least some formal curriculum for learning the basics of mathematics, letters, numbers, reading.

 

Here are some of the advantages that I can identify:

1) the children can receive personal, intimate connection with other children, not necessarily of their own age group, in a small group where they have the supervision of an adult to help in dispute resolution, an adult that has the time to aid in that development.

2) open sourced learning for the children involved in a curriculum that the children help create.

3) children can focus on activities that bring them inspiration and encourage their creativity, both their own and to participate in activities that encourage that type of learning from another's perspective

4) personal attention to my child, rather than the group attention of a school setting.

 

Here are some of the disadvantages that I can identify:

A) the children may be in a group with children they don't like, or the parents don't like, therefore creating the need for the parents to fill the gaps if that child is no longer participating in the program.

B) my child would inevitably receive the best of my attention during my days, and similar for the days that other parents have the group. I.e. each parent will typically cater towards their child's needs and wants first, then to the other children.

C) if a member of the group moves or decides to quit the program, how is that spot filled? Filling an open spot for something like this, I would imaging, could be difficult.

D) I occasionally have to travel for work. How can the group adapt to this type of situation?

E) How can the group handle family vacations?

 

I greatly appreciate any feedback that anyone has, and would be even interested in a Skype or Google video/audio chat to discuss further.

 

Thank you, ahead of time, for responses and reading.

[dsayers]

Hi there. Thank you for exploring alternatives to the coercive status quo and your sensitivity in this matter.

 

I typically subscribe to an unschooling method, but want to have at least some formal curriculum for learning the basics of mathematics, letters, numbers, reading.

 

How do you know that the only way he'll learn this is if somebody inflicts it upon him?

 

Also, you mentioned preschool. I was wondering if you're familiar with the potentially permanent damage to the child's immune system that nursery schools and preschools inflict upon children.

 

I was kind of bothered by the title of your topic. "Working parents" suggests that the parents are correct to be spending time away from a child that they chose to have. I don't agree that this is a given. Which leads to the main problem I see with the idea: It's sacrificing what's best for child for their entire life in exchange for what suits the parent in the moment. And it would encourage/enable other parents to do the same.

 

Don't get me wrong; it's a step in the right direction. I just think it's up to us who understand the dangers of improper parenting to be setting the example. Not stopping half way because it's convenient for us in the short-term. What are your thoughts on this input?

[Josh F]

I think to some degree this already exists in the unschooling community, and with the internet there are "online" podcasting teachers like the guy from School Sucks.  He often has unschooled kids call in and participate.

[tasmlab]

I think it is a good idea.  The two-income family definitely has hard decisions when examining the feasibility of homeschool.

 

We've been invited to similar groups, although not as regular as one parent-each day.  The groups pool together at someone's house (or too often, a church basement) and one parent teaches.  Then they round robin so everybody gets a chance to teach and multiple times to drop off their kids.

 

Strangely, where I live, it is ILLEGAL to have someone else teach your children if you homeschool, in terms of the primary educator. Has to be a parent.  This is ridiculous of course, since public school is exactly this.

 

As an aside, now that we homeschool I regret sending my preschooler to preschool.  He only did part time, but I would've rather not done it in hindsight.  Just an anecdote.

[lbnuke]

dssayers, thank you for pointing out some things that I may be alluding to in my post. I do have some questions.

 

Do you have any research/information that you can share regarding the "permanent damage" caused to a child's immune system in preschool? I have not heard/read/seen any of this informaiton and am certainly interested in learning.

 

Also, I think it's important to define curriculum, beacuse inflicting on my child is not the intention, neither was it in my purpose. I think there is at least some regimented practice needed to learn numbers, letters, words, etc. This doesn't have to be inflicted or enforced, but rather providing the tools and outlet for learning the basics of language, numbers, etc. For example, providing a book or iPad/tablet app that teaches tracing of letters and numbers, ultimately leading to forming words would be something to consider in the "curriculum". Children, and people in general, do not learn best when topics are inflicted upon them.

 

Lastly, in response, I do not think that I am "correct" in pursuing a job for my rational self interest. The interests of my son are included in my own self interest because I chose the obligation to care for him and I have a responsibility to provide the framework for his growth as a human being: food, clothing, shelter, room for growth, etc. The solution that I'm presenting is the beginning of an idea that is a potential solution for working parents.

 

My wife and I are at odds with how we are going to educate our son, and any future children and I'm looking for a means that can satisfy both of us.

 

If you could send me some research about the preschool immune system effects, I'd certainly read it.

 

I really like the model that Stef has setup to work while at home with Izzy. I would like to do so myself and work as an independent consultant/freelancer to pay the bills. This requires the cooperation of the entire family unit, and like I said, my wife and I are at ends about the solutions for our son's future.

 

I really appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

[tasmlab]

This requires the cooperation of the entire family unit, and like I said, my wife and I are at ends about the solutions for our son's future.

 

 

Of course, it is crazy important to have you and your wife have consensus on what to do.  Homeschooling can seem so far away from the norm that she'll be doubting it constantly if not on board.  I'm assuming your wife is still considering school at this point (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Many if not most of the homeschoolers I've met (online and in person) still have doubts from time to time about what they are doing.

 

It is also one of the greatest LEGAL woes families have with homeschooling.   Most of the legal/truancy/state interactions happen because one parent (the one not on board) rats out the other after they get divorced.  The result is that the kids are shipped to public school, either because the state intervenes or the other parent refuses to homeschool when they have custody.   (this observation is anecdotal BTW, I don't have statistics, but my accountability group counselor confirmed this. ).

 

Here's some things I did to get my wife on board:

• Had her read books.  John Taylor Gatto's "dumbing us down" was pretty much enough to get the message across.
• Learn the local laws and know what you have to do.  This is very comforting.
• Dispel the idea that is is a lot of work or that you'll be recreating school at home.  It's neither.
• Read some homeschooler forums and articles on online.
• If you can, meet up with some other homeschoolers with your four year old.   A lot of families consider themselves homeschoolers even before their kids are school age, and many have preschool age siblings to play with.  Be prepared to meet some hippies and Christians though.
• Remind her that there is NO RISK to trying.  If it doesn't work, the public schools will welcome you with their hungry, grubby arms at any time.    
• Kindergarten homeschooling is pretty much just letting them play even following the state's requirements. It's an easy place to start.
• Reflect on how valuable your own PS was, try to focus on the tedious and painful parts.
• This is a little manipulative, but go to the PS bus stop one morning and let your four year old on to the first step and imagine this stranger taking your child away in that big metal truck.  It feels awful.
• Lastly, really really know your stuff.  Showing knowledge and confidence is essential to building her confidence and trust.

 

Just some unsolicited advice from a stranger on the internet who just went through this.

[lbnuke]

tasmlab,

 

Thank you, very very much for your response. I really enjoy hearing the advice from someone that has shared in the same experiences. I find the information that you have made explicit (taking my son to a school bus stop and act like he's getting on the bus with the stranger) the things that implicitly concern me great things to consider.

 

I'm glad you mentioned John Taylor Gatto's work. I was first exposed to his work through the Peace Revolution Podcast leading up to and including their weekend interview and commentary. If you're not familiar with this "Ultimate History Lesson" please YouTube it, it's fascinating and very educational to listen to.

 

I played the first hour of this interview with my wife and it didn't go over well. I think there is a lot of work associated with bringing my wife on board as to the issues with the public school system; I actually think the convincing is impossible. However, you did inspire me in your words that there is no risk in trying and to speak assertively about my choice and share the journey with her.

 

I do want to ask if you still work while unschooling, if you actually stay at home with your kids. I don't have much information to start with, so I can't really ask to good, meaty questions. I'm certainly interested in further discussions on the topic, even if the idea doesn't come to fruition with other families, I am interested in finding a balance between working for money to pay the bills and spending the best time with my son.

[tasmlab]

I'm glad you mentioned John Taylor Gatto's work. I was first exposed to his work through the Peace Revolution Podcast leading up to and including their weekend interview and commentary. If you're not familiar with this "Ultimate History Lesson" please YouTube it, it's fascinating and very educational to listen to.I do want to ask if you still work while unschooling, if you actually stay at home with your kids. I don't have much information to start with, so I can't really ask to good, meaty questions. I'm certainly interested in further discussions on the topic, even if the idea doesn't come to fruition with other families, I am interested in finding a balance between working for money to pay the bills and spending the best time with my son.

 

Hi Logan,

 

I have watched the hour and half youtube with Gatto and loved it.  I saw that before getting his books "dumbing us down" and "weapons of mass instruction".  Both superb books.  I'm currently in the early chapters of his massive "underground history...".  He's a delight to read.  I'm already convinced but still enjoy his prose and ideas.

 

I work from home full time and my wife is a full time mom, so we're with the kids all day.  We use some unschooling* ideas but are probably considered 'ecclectic' in our method.  We bought them laptops and have a pile of books.  We ask them each to do two school lessons a day, their choice to which ones, by themselves.  My six year old usually opts to do some online tutorials through time4learning.com.  My eight year old daughter does too, but prefers to do math with my wife together with a book.  My wife probably spends about 20 minutes per day in active 'instruction'.

 

When we find a subject they are interested we encourage them to research it more.  My daughter watched a documentary on wild horses today.  My son was into Gorillas last week and did the same.

 

The eight year old also reads a chapter out of the kids encyclopedia to the younger one and then we all talk about it for a bit.  Before bedtime we all crawl into our kings size bed and watch an educational show of some sort.  Recently it's been the COSMOS series, nature documentaries on Netflix and Iron Chef America.  

 

If the kids want to stay up past their bedtime, they are welcome to go to their rooms and read to their hearts content.

 

The kids probably come in and ask me questions about 20 times per day.  If my wife had to work, I imagine that I would take over the 20 minutes.

 

By the time my three year old is ready, I can probably hire my eldest to do any directed stuff we want to do.  She's already helping her brother a lot.

 

I'd say 'schooling' takes an hour per day.  The rest of the time is a lot of play.  They both play a lot of Minecraft.

 

On your question of spending enough time with your son vs. working for money, you are probably going to get both even if you work the entire 9-5 workday.  Especially compared to someone who uses public school.  I don't necessarily spend giant chunks of the workday interacting with them, but I come over and help with their computer, have a lot of brief interactions with them, take breaks to talk to them, have lunch with them and occasionally blow off work to do a bike ride or something.

 

They also spend a lot of time alone, which is very valuable and something they can never get at public school.

 

 

We're new to this, just having started in January.  I can't claim to be an expert but am happy to answer any questions.  Even though we are doing it for 'us', I also believe that homeschooling will be the only way we ever see a libertarian society.  I want it to spread for lots of reasons.

 

It's going GREAT so far.  My wife cannot imagine ever sending them back now.

 

 

* A lot of people are persnickety about the term 'unschooling', use with caution.

[lbnuke]

Thanks for sharing the valuable experience with me and the board. I'm excited that there are others that are living the life and willing to share experiences.

 

When did your older children become more independent in their educational pursuits? My son is not yet at the stage where he'll run with an activity that we provide to him. I.e. when I give him coloring books that he enjoys, typically of super heroes, and ask that we have a period of quiet time, he still wants me to interact with him. I'm assuming that this will gradually decrease and the time he can sit and focus on a task will increase, if he has the proper energy outlets.

 

I've experimented with keeping him home from preschool with me a few days and it's been challenging to say that least. However, I understand he's not used to the routine, so there would have to be an adjustment period.

 

What part of the country do you live in? What do your children do for "social" activities? I think we're both beyond the "socializing" knee jerk reaction typical of speaking about alternative education techniques, but I'm always interested in what other children do with their time to encourage a healthy social interaction. I really like Dayna Martin's description of her 4 year old son who has friends in the close neighborhood that are 17, 82, 2, and 7 years of age, allowing the child to create their own friendships. Being social in a healthy environment is a large concern of mine with my son and my wife has concerns about an isolatory, hermit life.

 

Ultimately, I think we'll have to experiment with a variety of solutions, but keep in mind our child's needs.

 

Your thoughts? Encouragement?

 

I live in an area of the country, San Diego, where it is difficult to live on a single parent income. My wife and I are balancing the challenges of financial obligations and future comfort with our desire to care for our children in the way they deserve. I'm, personally, finding it very challenging because there is discrepancy in the way I'm living and the values that I hold dear.

 

Thank you again. I look forward to continued discussion.

[st434u]

I would suggest being less structured. Planning out specific ways for children to learn is a residue of the indoctrination camp system.

 

Before the State created this monstrosity, learning was just called life. There was no need for parents to set aside specific time to teach specific things to their children. Children would just learn from being around the parents and asking questions as they naturally do.

 

If you can find a way to have your child be around you while you work, learning as they watch you engage in everyday life, this would be ideal. If you can't, then try and alternate work schedules with your wife, so that at least one of you is spending time with your kid. Since you said you had a home business, the having your kid around while you work shouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

If you plan on doing specific things with your kid outside home, like going to the zoo, going camping, fishing, playing ball, or whatever, do it because it's fun, not necessarily as a way to teach them something. Kids learn when something is interesting to them, just like we all do.

 

Unschooling is really about individual-directed learning. So it's not based in you providing a study plan or something of the sort, it's just, whatever they find interesting, they will learn about, and their primary way of learning is by asking questions and experimenting with things.

[tasmlab]

Hi Logan,

 

I don't have all the answers but maybe some ideas.  We've only been at this for a few months.

 

On keeping your 4-year old home, I'm sure there's a lot of interruption.  Just peeling apples and opening toys all day long.  If I have to watch my almost 3-year old without my wife, it can sometimes be very hard to work and watch her.  My only suggestion would be to take the hit during the day and catch up on your work after your wife comes home.  Not ideal by any stretch.

 

We live in the Charleston area in an affluent community.  (Mount Pleasant).

 

The 'social' problem hasn't been a problem.    They play with neighborhood kids in the late afternoons and weekends.  We sign up for sports and activities like karate, swim, and lacrosse and meet lots of kids.  Homeschoolers are also more forthcoming on doing park days and meetups, sort of by necessity, but we also don't have an 8.5 hours of school eating up massive chunks of the day.

 

We even met a family of market anarchists whom we get along with.  Even the dads!

 

Having siblings help make play time social.  

 

And, remember, beyond first grade, the kids don't get that much social time in PS.  There's a lot of time spent glued to desks with your mouth shut.  And there is no alone time.  The worst of both worlds.

 

You may have to just be net poorer to accommodate your values.  But you'll make up the money misery with more time, preserving your values and giving your kid the best development.

 

As a disclosure, I make a pretty handsome paycheck.  Having money makes everything easier.  My wife doesn't have to go to work.  We hire a babysitter a couple times a week to watch the kids for a few hours on Tuesday and Thursday so my wife can go grocery shopping or exercise or whatever by herself.  It's easy for me to make it sound easy and put on moral airs because the money is there.  And I'm sure San Diego is much more expensive.

 

You might also go to care.com or ask around and see how many nanny hours you can get with the money you pay in pre-school tuition.  For example, my boy's preschool tuition was about $580/month I think.  You can hire a babysitter at $15/hour to give yourself some dedicated working time.  This would work out to about 9-10 hours a week.  Not a ton of time, but it may help in scheduling undisturbed work calls and such.

 

We've also employed 'mother's helpers' for as low as $2/hour.  This is a neighborhood 12 year old or so who isn't old enough to be left alone with your child, but can play with them, get them snacks, etc. and only interrupt you when there is a medical emergency.  This worked out great for working at home and watching the kids.  Unfortunately, they aren't available until their school day is done.  

 

This practice violates child labor laws, minimum wage laws even though my kids loved it, my wife loved it, the mother's helper had a great time, developed her work skills and generated some pocket money.  

 

You may be able to find a teenage homeschooler to hire like this.  It's a valuable experience for the teenager too to be valuable, learning, working, etc.  They could even do curriculum if you weren't unschooling.

[LovePrevails]

I loved this show!

 

I asked Dayna to say a bit about it near the beginning of this interview

[Ashton]

So it turns out that unschooling is worse at academic intelligence then home schooling and normal school.Study:The Impact of Schooling on Academic Achievement: Evidence From Homeschooled and Traditionally Schooled StudentsBy:Martin-Chang, S (Martin-Chang, Sandra)[ 1,2 ] ; Gould, ON (Gould, Odette N.)[ 2 ] ; Meuse, RE (Meuse, Reanne E.)[ 2 ]CANADIAN JOURNAL OF BEHAVIOURAL SCIENCE-REVUE CANADIENNE DES SCIENCES DU COMPORTEMENTVolume: 43Issue: 3Pages: 195-202DOI: 10.1037/a0022697Published: JUL 2011

Although homeschooling is growing in prevalence, its educational outcomes remain unclear. The present study compared the academic achievements of homeschooled children with children attending traditional public school. When the homeschooled group was divided into those who were taught from organized lesson plans (structured homeschoolers) and those who were not (unstructured homeschoolers), the data showed that structured homeschooled children achieved higher standardized scores compared with children attending public school. Exploratory analyses also suggest that the unstructured homeschoolers are achieving the lowest standardized scores across the 3 groups.

[tasmlab]

So it turns out that unschooling is worse at academic intelligence then home schooling and normal school.Study:The Impact of Schooling on Academic Achievement: Evidence From Homeschooled and Traditionally Schooled StudentsBy:Martin-Chang, S (Martin-Chang, Sandra)[ 1,2 ] ; Gould, ON (Gould, Odette N.)[ 2 ] ; Meuse, RE (Meuse, Reanne E.)[ 2 ]CANADIAN JOURNAL OF BEHAVIOURAL SCIENCE-REVUE CANADIENNE DES SCIENCES DU COMPORTEMENTVolume: 43Issue: 3Pages: 195-202DOI: 10.1037/a0022697Published: JUL 2011 

 

The study (at least in the quote provided) says that unstructured homeschoolers do the worse on STANDARDIZED TEST SCORES.  Oh no!   They probably did an awful job preparing their children to take a standardized test.  Well, that's sort of the point.

 

Ashton, did you suggest it was lower 'academic intelligence' or was that in the study?  

 

Anecdote: My third grader spent the first half of the year in PS and then homeschool the second half.  She had to take the Stanford Achievement test as part of our accountability organization's policy at the end of the year.  The test features some very specific and random history questions, in particular about Squanto the Indian.  My daughter got them right because, in a freakish and miraculous coincidence,  they study Squanto the Indian in detail in third grade public school.

 

(Of lesser interest, I wonder what organization put up the funds for the study.  It would seem odd for this to be a free market occurrence.)

[Ashton]

The study (at least in the quote provided) says that unstructured homeschoolers do the worse on STANDARDIZED TEST SCORES.  Oh no!   They probably did an awful job preparing their children to take a standardized test.  Well, that's sort of the point.

So if you want your child to have a good career in our current society (Regardless of whether or not you agree with it.), you will need to do some form of standardised tests. If unschooled children are scoring lower on these tests then normal school and home schooled children, then i would suggest to people not to unschool if they want their children to have a career in our current society.I have nothing against Home Schooling, but for me Unschooling is massive risk that is not worth taking.  

Ashton, did you suggest it was lower 'academic intelligence' or was that in the study?

I suggested that it was, based from reading this study. 

Schools play several important roles, including socializing future citizens and fostering peer relations between children (Barakett & Cleghorn, 2008). However, the main focus of the current investigation was to compare the scores of children schooled at home versus those children attending public school on a standardized test of academic achievement. Although the evidence provided here is preliminary, it suggests that structured homeschooling may advance the development of academic skills (as measured by standardized tests) beyond what is experienced by attending traditional public school. The fact that the public school children were achieving above grade level expectations on many of the Woodcock–Johnson subtests suggests that this discrepancy did not stem from the poor performance of the public school children but rather resulted from accelerated progress in the children receiving structured home-based education. The same cannot be said for the children whose mothers “rarely” or “never” used structured curricula or lesson plans; the unstructured homeschoolers in this sample achieved the lowest scores throughout testing and fell below grade level in four of seven subject areas.

(Of lesser interest, I wonder what organization put up the funds for the study.  It would seem odd for this to be a free market occurrence.)

So acknowledgements: 

We thank Amanda Barrister and Jessica Chapman for their help in data collection. We gratefully acknowledge financial support from the McCain Fellowship Foundation to Sandra Martin-Chang and from Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada to Odette N. Gould.

So McCain fellowship: 

The Harrison McCain Foundation was established in 1997 by the late H. Harrison McCain, C.C., O.N.B. It is governed by his family and three outside Directors."Our father wanted us to make a continuing investment in Atlantic Canadian universities," said Ann McCain Evans. "Each year, 35 or more major scholarships, based on financial need, are awarded to students entering universities in Atlantic Canada. The Foundation also chooses, from time to time, to undertake a special investment in areas of work by universities which would have been of particular interest to our father. His focus, while building McCain Foods, was always on people, so it seems fitting that this investment of $1 million should focus on young university faculty and ultimately benefit the students he supported in so many other ways. He was a graduate of Acadia, and as such, I think he would be very pleased with this initiative."

http://www2.acadiau.ca/acadia-news-reader/items/harrison-mccain-foundation-awards-1-million-to-acadia.1043.htmlNatural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada:http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/index_eng.aspSeems the study was pretty impartial.Unschooling is currently in a phase of "Its different, so I'll do it to stand out". What I'd love to know is the percentage of kids unschooled who have turned out to have successful careers.As with home schooling, you have to take in the parents academic achievements, the child's intrinsic learning and the parent not getting burn out. I don't feel the majority of parents do this and instead say "I unschool!" when in fact they are "Not schooling".

[tasmlab]

So if you want your child to have a good career in our current society (Regardless of whether or not you agree with it.), you will need to do some form of standardised tests. If unschooled children are scoring lower on these tests then normal school and home schooled children, then i would suggest to people not to unschool if they want their children to have a career in our current society. Unschooling is currently in a phase of "Its different, so I'll do it to stand out". What I'd love to know is the percentage of kids unschooled who have turned out to have successful careers.As with home schooling, you have to take in the parents academic achievements, the child's intrinsic learning and the parent not getting burn out. I don't feel the majority of parents do this and instead say "I unschool!" when in fact they are "Not schooling".

 

Hi Ashton (and everyone else).  Thanks for your replies.  I don't agree with your conclusion.

 

I've just included your quotes that I wanted to comment on.

 

People in fact do NOT have to take standardized tests to have a career, good or bad.  I'm not sure why you would think that.  Are you in the workforce yet?  I've held countless jobs without ever being tested, and the same with everybody I know.

 

John Holt introduced the concept 40 years ago. It's very unpopular, almost unheard of, in the general population.  It has a stigma and people who do it have no easy course.  Parents who don't care about their child's education don't decide to unschool, it's a very difficult decision and takes a lot more effort than shipping them to public schools.  To suggest these parents take this approach because they are burned out or don't feel like teaching is untrue with every unschooler I've met.

 

But to take your point literally, yes, when someone says "I unschool" they are in fact "Not schooling".  That's the point.  They believe that schooling is bad.

 

And what is your measure for "successful careers"?  Is success defined as titular, years employed, payscale, personal time, happiness, satisfaction, free time, or societal respect?  Is a director of Finance at a uniform leasing company more successful than a guy who plays Tuba in a regional orchestra?

 

But no matter, statistics or human capital measurements have nothing to do with raising happy, functional, virtuous, smart people.  If curricula, forced assignments, tests, grades, etc. are all anathema to human flourishing, it really doesn't matter if there are statistics or studies that says schooled kids make for better job-holders.

 

As far as having lower test scores and under performing in academic categories, it makes little sense to hold an unschooler up to a schooled standard.  It presumes the school standard is a good measuring stick in the first place.  As a metaphor, if you compared dolphins trained to do tricks at Seaworld to wild dolphins, and doing tricks was the standard, then wild dolphins would underperform miserably to that standard.

 

Most curriculums way over teach advanced mathematics, over teach sciences, focus on all sorts of historical, geographic, literary and arts trivia/facts that aren't necessary, useful or entertaining.  So when an unschooled kid is tested on quadratic equations, sentence diagraming and memorizing state capitals, they tend not to know that stuff.

 

Peace,

[Ashton]

People in fact do NOT have to take standardized tests to have a career, good or bad.  I'm not sure why you would think that.  Are you in the workforce yet?  I've held countless jobs without ever being tested, and the same with everybody I know.

So my wifes cousin is a architect and he had to do lots of standardized tests to be able to become one.My Uncle is a molecular biologist and he had to do a lot of standardized tests.My auntie is a artist and she had to do standardized tests to get her job as a designer and maintainer of stained glass windows.My wife is doing a PhD in child language and had to do lots of standardized tests.I would say standardized testing is quite important. 

Parents who don't care about their child's education don't decide to unschool,

Can you clarify here, are you suggesting that people who don't unschool don't care about their kids education? 

To suggest these parents take this approach because they are burned out or don't feel like teaching is untrue with every unschooler I've met.

My comment about burning out was in relation to the research I've read about home schoolers and unschoolers who get burned out with the constant teaching. I really do suggest you read the research. 

But to take your point literally, yes, when someone says "I unschool" they are in fact "Not schooling".  That's the point.  They believe that schooling is bad.

That point was "Not schooling" is doing no education. Worded poorly on my behalf."I don't feel the majority of parents do this and instead say "I unschool!" when in fact they are "Not educating"." 

And what is your measure for "successful careers"?  Is success defined as titular, years employed, payscale, personal time, happiness, satisfaction, free time, or societal respect?  Is a director of Finance at a uniform leasing company more successful than a guy who plays Tuba in a regional orchestra?

One is realistically more achievable then the other.You can definitely say a tuba player who plays in a orchestra is successful, but out of how many people who play it, how many achieve that level of employment?As stef said, if your kid is good with music, they have to be absolutely outstanding to even stand out from the rest. 

As far as having lower test scores and under performing in academic categories, it makes little sense to hold an unschooler up to a schooled standard.  It presumes the school standard is a good measuring stick in the first place.  As a metaphor, if you compared dolphins trained to do tricks at Seaworld to wild dolphins, and doing tricks was the standard, then wild dolphins would underperform miserably to that standard.

It makes every sense if that wild dolphin was going to live in the Seaworld dolphins world.  

Most curriculum's way over teach advanced mathematics, over teach sciences, focus on all sorts of historical, geographic, literary and arts trivia/facts that aren't necessary, useful or entertaining.  So when an unschooled kid is tested on quadratic equations, sentence diagraming and memorizing state capitals, they tend not to know that stuff. Peace,

I would agree that some stuff is taught at the wrong time.