What do you guys think of left libertarians?

[Mike Fleming]

I'm ok with people on the left at least on an individual basis because they actually give a shit and are pretty well informed compared to most people 

 

some can be pretty annoying and single-minded but others have just been given the wrong coordinates - I was one

 

That pretty much describes me too.  I came from the left.  It's a struggle to think straight in this society, and I think patience with those on the left, as well as the right for that matter, is always a good approach, at least initially.  Some people on both sides are too far gone but give people at least one chance.  

[Andrew79]

with collectivism its no longer about individual sovereinty.

Yes, but because there are only individuals it's ultimately about doing what someone else tells you, rather than what you want.When collectivists talk about how they hate capitalism and the evils it brings, replace "capitalism" with "freedom" and you get far closer to what they're really advocating.  

did he do any research about this?

Marx didn't just research, he came up with his own methods of research. He viewed simply looking at the world as too shallow, it suffers from what he called "the camera obscura" problem, you can't clearly see what's really going on.Which let him come up with all sorts of rubbish, and attracted "intellectuals" to his philosophy because they could claim they were looking at the world at a far deeper level than anyone else.In fact one of the most influential Marxists, Georg Luckacs, said that this style of research was the real Marxism, not the theories it led to. He says if "recent research had disproved once and for all every one of Marx's individual theses”, Marxism would still be valid. 

so if he thinks being exploited is a good trade for not needing to have the responsibility of being a owner, is he allowed such self sovereinty?

He would be thinking wrong and the Marxists would help educate him to the right way of thinking if he had a problem with it.

he owner would have a lot more education than than the worker, so the worker would need years of education to catch up on knoledge of how to even run a company.

When they say "owning the means of production" they mean in the same way you own the public property in your country. 

How do they define exploitation in a way where their own theory is not exploitation?

I don't believe you can in a principled way.Their non-exploitative business model is one where all the workers have an equal say in how the business is run (through some form of democracy) so that nobody has exclusive control over the means of production.

[cab21]

Yes, but because there are only individuals it's ultimately about doing what someone else tells you, rather than what you want.When collectivists talk about how they hate capitalism and the evils it brings, replace "capitalism" with "freedom" and you get far closer to what they're really advocating.

 

doing what someone else tells you is hierarchy , hierarchy of a collective over a individual does not eliminate hierarchy, so it looks like they hate individual choice hierarchy.

 

Marx didn't just research, he came up with his own methods of research. He viewed simply looking at the world as too shallow, it suffers from what he called "the camera obscura" problem, you can't clearly see what's really going on.Which let him come up with all sorts of rubbish, and attracted "intellectuals" to his philosophy because they could claim they were looking at the world at a far deeper level than anyone else.In fact one of the most influential Marxists, Georg Luckacs, said that this style of research was the real Marxism, not the theories it led to. He says if "recent research had disproved once and for all every one of Marx's individual theses”, Marxism would still be valid.

 

that looks like it creates a hierarchy of intellectuals.

i would think that would mean creating elites rather than a democracy of equality

the ceo sees a lot more of what goes on at a company than the janitor in capitalism, so if the intellectual sees more than the non intellectual in marxism, in neither does it make sense to have the two make decisions at legal power. 

 

He would be thinking wrong and the Marxists would help educate him to the right way of thinking if he had a problem with it.

 

how do they enforce such education. the person would know intellectual of what is expected, but knowing does not mean doing or wanting to work a certain way.

 

When they say "owning the means of production" they mean in the same way you own the public property in your country.

 

by not really owning it, but being forced to pay for it, and others to ban me from its use.

 

I don't believe you can in a principled way.Their non-exploitative business model is one where all the workers have an equal say in how the business is run (through some form of democracy) so that nobody has exclusive control over the means of production.

 

equal say is the majority exploiting the minority, so one group has control over another group.

interesting how they would say this, but also say there are intellectual minority that see things at a deeper level than the majority,

[PatrickC]

Whatever positivity people might feel (or imagine) exists with the left minded. Just remind yourself the next time they demand something should be banned or a persons preference should be punished. The Left are frankly parasites at best and wannabee despots at worst. All the while attempting to cloak themselves in their own 'make believe' virtue and nobility.

[Andrew79]

doing what someone else tells you is hierarchy , hierarchy of a collective over a individual does not eliminate hierarchy, so it looks like they hate individual choice hierarchy....that looks like it creates a hierarchy of intellectuals.i would think that would mean creating elites rather than a democracy of equality

Yes, I think the people advocating it believe they are the intellectuals who would tell everyone else how to live. 

how do they enforce such education. the person would know intellectual of what is expected, but knowing does not mean doing or wanting to work a certain way.

Non-stop propaganda, indoctrination of the young, complete control of the education system, fear, re-education camps.It's one thing to know what you're being told is nonsense, but it's another to act on it when you run the risk of being shot, labelled insane or a traitor, or even worse... (lookup "three generations of punishment" to see the evil these people are capable of) 

by not really owning it, but being forced to pay for it, and others to ban me from its use.

Yep. 

equal say is the majority exploiting the minority, so one group has control over another group.interesting how they would say this, but also say there are intellectual minority that see things at a deeper level than the majority,

When preaching to the masses they need to make it seem that it's all about them, but when preaching to the intellectuals they need to make it seem like it's actually all about them.