OtherOtie Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 When I was growing up, my father was an alcoholic. He also had a temper. For almost a decade, my home felt like a battlefield for a war fought by raised voices. I was often sheltered by my mom to prevent me from being exposed to his drunken tantrums. Of course, I was still exposed. I still heard the yelling, the screaming, the verbal abuse. I was in the midst of it. I'm 21 now, and my father hasn't been a part of my life for… almost a decade. Now I am haunted by guilt. My father sends me money and texts telling me he loves me and he's always there for me, and I don't know how to respond. I can't respond. I'm paralyzed. I have anxiety. And I don't believe him. He came over today (a rare, rare occurrence) and my mom came down here asking me to go up and say hello. I told her I didn't want to, and she called me heartless and told me to have some compassion. She says he cries all the time. I have compassion. I feel terrible that he cries. But where was the compassion for the developing child who endured all of this trauma? Where is the compassion for the effects of that trauma? I told her this. All she said is that she endured worse from him, and even she still has a place in her heart for him. First of all, bullshit. She didn't suffer worse. I suffered worse. She chose him. I was a child. And even if it were true, her choice to see her abuser in no way compels me to make that same choice. Yet I still feel guilty. I still feel heartless. I hate that he cries. I wish he were one of those fathers that was uncaring emotionally as he is in action. Then I wouldn't feel so bad. I wish he didn't feel anything about me. I wish he didn't think about me. I can't shoulder this burden of having to offer emotional support for the father that inflicted more damage upon me than I could ever quantify. It's not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 All she said is that she endured worse from him, and even she still has a place in her heart for him. First of all, bullshit. She didn't suffer worse. I suffered worse. She chose him. I was a child. And even if it were true, her choice to see her abuser in no way compels me to make that same choice. Very well said. I just wanted to add that not only did she choose, but his involvement in your life was her choice also. She has NO RIGHT to try and guilt you out of a healthy reaction to the war zone SHE placed you in. I can sympathize so much with what you're describing. I probably didn't experience as bad as you, but it really sucks that somebody can make even just a single gesture or make a single comment and it poisons you for so much longer than any one item should be able. I had a really hard time getting passed that myself. I respect and admire your conviction towards your father. All the same, I'm curious: Where is his gestures coming from? Has he sought therapy? Or is the damage that made him so violent now haunting him about his behaviors concerning you? I guess what I'm asking is do you think he's sorry because he experiences regret or he's sorry because he wants you to stop holding him accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Beal Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I am so sorry It's terrible that you were made to live with that as a child and it's only made worse by these accusations of heartlessness. I don't know, right? But I wonder if actually that guilt and self loathing for being "heartless" is actually not yours at all. Because, just reading what you've written, it sounds like there is absolutely nothing for you to feel guilty about, and I can't see how anything you did was heartless. Who that sounds like is your mother in that instance. The place where people are most likely to project their own shit onto other people is when they are most guilty of hypocrisy. It doesn't sound like your mother cares about what you went through when she talks at you like that. Instead, it sounds like she's being heartless and i would hope that she feels guilty, because her actions (in combination with your father) resulted in your trauma. I don't quite get the psychological mechanism, but it would sort of make sense to me that those feelings are hers (and probably also your fathers), and not yours. You are just contaminated with her guilt and shame. Stef talks about this sort of thing in this listener convo: You Are Not Conflicted - A Listener Conversation http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1596_you_are_not_conflicted_convo.mp3 Sorry again Hopefully this is of some help. I've found it very helpful myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherOtie Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 I'm curious: Where is his gestures coming from? Has he sought therapy? Or is the damage that made him so violent now haunting him about his behaviors concerning you? I guess what I'm asking is do you think he's sorry because he experiences regret or he's sorry because he wants you to stop holding him accountable? Therapy, I doubt it. I'm sure he is sorry on a very superficial level, but I don't know if he even understands the gravity of the damage he caused enough to be truly sorry. I think he is just reaping the consequences of choices he made in the past and now it isn't so convenient. He's not heartless... I believe that he "cares about me" inasmuch as he hays feelings for me. But his choices and his lack of regard for my developing self were so catastrophic that I don't know that those superficial feelings are enough for me. As I say, I wish he had no feelings for me. I wish he were that type of neglectful father. But as far as I've always known, he does have empathy... it's just buried underneath so many shitty choices. I am so sorry It's terrible that you were made to live with that as a child and it's only made worse by these accusations of heartlessness. I don't know, right? But I wonder if actually that guilt and self loathing for being "heartless" is actually not yours at all. Because, just reading what you've written, it sounds like there is absolutely nothing for you to feel guilty about, and I can't see how anything you did was heartless. Who that sounds like is your mother in that instance. The place where people are most likely to project their own shit onto other people is when they are most guilty of hypocrisy. It doesn't sound like your mother cares about what you went through when she talks at you like that. Instead, it sounds like she's being heartless and i would hope that she feels guilty, because her actions (in combination with your father) resulted in your trauma. I don't quite get the psychological mechanism, but it would sort of make sense to me that those feelings are hers (and probably also your fathers), and not yours. You are just contaminated with her guilt and shame. Stef talks about this sort of thing in this listener convo: You Are Not Conflicted - A Listener Conversation http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1596_you_are_not_conflicted_convo.mp3 Sorry again Hopefully this is of some help. I've found it very helpful myself. Thanks to both of you for your compassion. I listened to that conversation at your suggestion and sadly I don't think it's as relevant to my situation as I'd hoped. But I did get a few nuggets of insight out of it (as is usually the case with Stef's podcasts), so thank you for recommending it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 It seems that despite their current appearances, you believe that they are the same abusive people whom you lived with a decade ago. That you're feeling guilty suggests that some part of you doesn't believe this, perhaps because of their deceptive appearance in the present. I wonder if you could help show this part of yourself evidence for what you believe by confronting them in ways that they can't wiggle out of, so that you see a very clear demonstration of their current abusiveness. It sounds like you did some confrontation but your mother outsmarted you that time. Another thing, your parents can seek other people to talk with about what they're feeling. Their child is not obligated to be their own free personal therapist whom they can abuse in order to feel better. On the other hand, parents have exactly that role as the child's counselors who must deal with whatever the child says to them in a loving way, because anything bothersome the child does is not a result of malice but only what the parents have done to the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 @Otie: Could it be that he has feelings for his offspring, not YOU? My father is abusive too. Despite that, he holds the antiquated belief that proximity equals virtue. So there are a number of things he does that seem generous on the surface. But he's doing them for his son, not for me. Does that make sense? Do you think this might describe your situation to some degree as well? It seems that despite their current appearances, you believe that they are the same abusive people whom you lived with a decade ago. That you're feeling guilty suggests that some part of you doesn't believe this I don't agree with this interpretation. I think that sophisticated abusers can instill a dependence on their victims in order to make them self-attack as a reaction to questioning the necessity or the virtue of their abusers. Even if this doesn't describe his parents specifically, society in general tries to accomplish the exact same thing to avoid having to face the truth of their own abuse. I'm not saying your interpretation isn't possible. I think the one I've offered is more probable and by no small margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherOtie Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 It is possible, but I don't find it inconceivable that he has feelings for me. I don't really know. I'm going to find out. I spoke to my mom and told her how I feel, and she apologized for what she said to me yesterday and acknowledged that it was wrong of her and she shouldn't have sprung that on me. She also apologized for making the mistake of marrying my father and having a child with him without knowing he was an alcoholic. I feel optimistic that restitution is possible with her. I think I will speak with my father to find out if the same is true of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 why are you accepting money from him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherOtie Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 why are you accepting money from him? First I should say that it's just occasional gifts like on birthdays and Christmas. That said, several reasons. 1... it's hard to reject money just from a self interest standpoint. I'm not about to reject two hundred dollars. 2... the money comes in the mail so to reject it I would have to contact and see him, so I'd essentially be paying to see him. Which doesn't sound like a great deal to me. 3... it just feels rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I spoke to my mom and told her how I feel, and she apologized for what she said to me yesterday and acknowledged that it was wrong of her and she shouldn't have sprung that on me. She also apologized for making the mistake of marrying my father and having a child with him without knowing he was an alcoholic. I feel optimistic that restitution is possible with her. It is definitely a big deal that she takes responsibility for bringing him into your life. However, I'd be careful to consider the possibility of it being just words. Somebody who truly felt that way wouldn't be able to say what she said. At the very least, I'd ask her how it came to pass that she even could say such a thing. why are you accepting money from him? I accept my father's generosity. I view it as a sort of restitution. Not one he's chosen, but sort of like a consolation prize. The important things is to be aware of the decision you've made and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherOtie Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 That is true. But I'm fairly confident my mom only says those things out of habit, because that's what her parents would have said to her. She seems to be able to see that they're wrong upon reflection. She did throw several excuses at me but it only took five minutes for her to acknowledge that they were excuses, which I take to be a decent sign. I've heard stories about conversations about parents who would throw excuses out endlessly. But I'll have to talk with her some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cab21 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 if you want to speak to your father and see how things go, that seems good. go with your own terms and set the standard for the relationship you would accept, if the father chooses to be a part of it then that only seems good, and if not that seems like closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsayers Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 That is true. But I'm fairly confident my mom only says those things out of habit, because that's what her parents would have said to her. She seems to be able to see that they're wrong upon reflection. She did throw several excuses at me but it only took five minutes for her to acknowledge that they were excuses, which I take to be a decent sign. I've heard stories about conversations about parents who would throw excuses out endlessly. But I'll have to talk with her some more... I am really happy to read this! And a bit jealous. I really hope she's sincere and you're able to have a relationship with her. If after some skeptical conversation, she turns out to be the real deal, please thank her from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadrewple Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Yet I still feel guilty. I still feel heartless. I hate that he cries. I wish he were one of those fathers that was uncaring emotionally as he is in action. Then I wouldn't feel so bad. I wish he didn't feel anything about me. I wish he didn't think about me. I can't shoulder this burden of having to offer emotional support for the father that inflicted more damage upon me than I could ever quantify. This pretty mirrors what I experienced when my mother lost touch with reality and could no longer function in society. My grandmother (her mother) at the time didn't focus on any of my emotions, but rather tried to rationalize the actions of my mother which led to her not being there for me and my brother and sister, and had the agenda of me not holding anything against my mother the few times we even talked about it. The fact that your mother is trying to convince you to see your father in my opinion proves that she knows he doesn't deserve to see you - the same as the fact that my grandmother tried to convince me not to be angry and sad at my mother no longer being there was because she knew I deserved to be angry at my mother and sad. I'm sorry that you were dealt this shitty hand and are being manipulated after the fact. It is possible, but I don't find it inconceivable that he has feelings for me. I don't really know. I'm going to find out. I spoke to my mom and told her how I feel, and she apologized for what she said to me yesterday and acknowledged that it was wrong of her and she shouldn't have sprung that on me. She also apologized for making the mistake of marrying my father and having a child with him without knowing he was an alcoholic. I feel optimistic that restitution is possible with her. I think I will speak with my father to find out if the same is true of him. Obviously I didn't hear her apology and the context which brought it about so it's hard for any us to comment on that, but here are some (I think) important facts: He came to see you (presumably without telling you or asking your permission) with her support. When you refused, she tried to bully you into seeing him. After that didn't work, she apologized. Her actions as you've stated so far have not indicated anything to me other than the fact that she's manipulative enough to shame a person whose painful childhood she is responsible for, but smart enough to know how far she can take it before she has to apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livemike Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 And what exactly does he cry about? Because if it's the damage he did to you he's doing nothing to stop that. If it's something else then I'm betting it's the result of his own actions, right? So yeah, he's feeling miserable about, whatever it is, that's natural. That's what happens when you make stupid, self-involved choices without considering the impact on others or your future self. So why feel bad for him? It's not like he got hit by a truck or lost an arm in a terrorist attack. Anything that happened to him is his fault. Why waste your empathy on him when there are people that didn't cause their own pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovePrevails Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 that is terrible, what a hopeless experience to have to face some guilt and shame what struck me at the end was the irrelevance of her saying that she had suffered worse, as well as the untruth it's basically like saying I put up with abuse so you should too, and what is more just because she dealt with it as an adult woman doesn't mean a child has the same capacity what I would advise is that every time you experience intense emotions like shame or guilt relating to it remember you are only perceiving "part" of the story --- you are only experiencing your dad's side you have to bring your consciousness to your own experience to balance it out and take yourself into account these are buttons that were put inside you not because you were once dependent of feeling sorry for your dad for your survival the button was placed inside you as a defence, you had to be very sensitive and empathetic towards him it most certainly doesn't serve you any more I think it's important that you journal your thoughts and feelings regarding the issue frequently this will clarify your meaning to yourself and make things clearer for you if you ever have to articulate yourself it will put you in an advantaged position from where you can be clear and concise I'm sorry I don't have more for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilia Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I wish he were one of those fathers that was uncaring emotionally as he is in action. Then I wouldn't feel so bad. I wish he didn't feel anything about me. I wish he didn't think about me. I can't shoulder this burden of having to offer emotional support for the father that inflicted more damage upon me than I could ever quantify. It's not fair. I'm not sure if I will be able to say anything helpful or understanding about this, because I am still trying to resolve a similar thing about my own parents. But I will try. I think this quote is very important and shows possibly the worst part of the abuse that has been inflicted on you. You wish that your father was worse than he is... I think that points to his "niceness" being abusive. You suffer because of it... I'm probably exaggerating here, but it's as if any good behaviour from his part means that you have to forget your feelings and self-interest. So that kind of means that the behavior isn't all that good after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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