I may have a history of enacting Socrate's revenge

[delirium2k]

I recently listened to the conclusion of the Trial of Socrate's series once again.  I was especially struck by Stef's description of the manner in which Socrate's enacted his revenge on the multitudes who stood by and said nothing while he was being sentenced to death.  This resonated so strongly with me that I had flashbacks of multiple instances in my life where I acted in a similarly passive-aggressive manner.

 

Thus far, every time I have analyzed the way a relationship of mine ends, whether it be personal or business related, I get the strong feeling that I may have been subconsciously enacting a version of Socrate's revenge.

 

To give a not so brief example, I was just fired from a job.  During the job interview, I made it abundantly clear that while I am available for some overtime, I did not want to work overtime every week.  I made it clear that my work/life balance was more important than my wage, and that my free time to spend with my family was the purpose of my seeking employment in this particular industry.  The recruiter told me that a couple of months of overtime were going to be necessary starting out, as they had just lost some employees and were behind schedule.  I agreed to these premises and began work.

 

In hindsight, I should have asked about why the previous employees left.  I also should have paid closer attention when the CEO commented that they had a problem with employees only working 1 or 2 years before seeking employment elsewhere.  I do believe that had I asked the appropriate questions with regards to these facts, I may have felt slightly less surprised when I found myself putting in 50-60 hours a week for the next 5 months.

 

All that said, after 5 months I was at my breaking point.  I was becoming increasingly detached from my SO and my daughter because I was constantly exhausted.  I felt like I spent every weekend just catching up on rest and household chores and didn't have the time I wanted to engage in meaningful discussion and participation with my family.  After several attempts to schedule a meeting with the head of Human Resources, I decided to make a stand.  I stayed home from work on a Friday (we worked 4 10 hour shifts, so Fridays were always overtime) and called the head of HR to discuss my situation.

 

The conversation was quite frustrating.  She said that overtime was mandatory, she said she couldn't control what I was told in my interview.  She said she was unwilling to renegotiate my wages in light of the change of circumstance involving my employment.  I might also note that in talking to shop level employees during my first couple of months, they all laughed when I told them that the recruiter said OT would only be mandatory for a couple of months.  They said they had been doing mandatory OT for over a year.  Several told me outright that I was lied to.

 

At the end of this discussion, the head of HR told me I could take the weekend to think about it, but that I would have to work 50 hours per week indefinitely and there would be absolutely no re-negotiations of my wage, even though she admitted there is a difference between a couple of months and an indefinite time frame of working OT.

 

After careful consideration, I sent her an email saying that I believed that working at this job was still worth it even though the job was not exactly what I was offered during the interview.  And this is true, the pay was decent, the insurance was 100%, which is unheard of, and in general, outside of the lies, the work environment was reasonably peaceful and respectful compared to other work experiences I have had.  I told her I would be at work at my regular time on Monday morning.

 

When I went in the next day I was fired.  The reasons given were that they "wanted someone who didn't just show up whenever they wanted".  I told them that I was following the schedule discussed in my interview when I didn't show up, and furthermore, that after discussing the situation with HR I had conceded to their demands even though they showed no ability to negotiate even when they were the ones who unilaterally changed the work agreement.  The foreman responded by attacking my character, saying I was unwilling to reschedule when they had asked me to go to nights, and that I was the one who wouldn't negotiate.  I told him I had said night shift was a possibility that would require my SO to change her schedule, which I could not control but would inquire about.  This did not satisfy them.

 

I told them I had cancelled a vacation I had planned in order to help meet production schedules, even though this happened in the 5th month of my employment, after I had already put in more than a full month worth of extra work on top of a normal 40 hour work week during that time frame.  It was clear that I was willing to be flexible to meet changing demands, but they were completely inflexible.

 

At this point I was boiling over with rage.  I don't know whether I acted appropriately.  I told the foreman their words meant nothing.  Every time he attempted to bring a counterargument I spoke over him and repeated "So your words mean nothing".  He told me too had cancelled a vacation with his family, to which I responded "So your words mean nothing".  He continued to try to voice his side, but I just escalated by calling him a liar and a fucking liar as I threw down my hat and workshirt before storming out.

 

By leaving in a manner that will be viewed as "throwing a tantrum" or acting unprofessionally, I feel fairly confident that they will never analyze the root cause of the problem in our relationship.  They will write everything off as me being crazy or childish or any number of other derogatory terms.

 

As someone who likes to think they want to see a better world, I have to wonder if I'm not just spitting poison back at people in an effort to kill them with their own shortcomings.  I feel simultaneously ashamed of my response and proud of my response.  I'm ashamed of how I have represented philosophy but proud that those who wronged me will never see the light and eventually destroy themselves.

 

My question is, if I keep acting this way, am I part of the problem or part of the solution (is it not helpful to destroy those who reject reason?).  Perhaps something else.  I feel very ambivalent about my actions during this and many similar episodes of my life.

[cynicist]

Wow, I'm sorry that you were fired but that sounds like one of the most oppressive workplaces I've ever heard of. They, "wanted someone who didn't just show up whenever they wanted", meaning they wanted you to conform to their expectations but did not give a fucking inch even though you were outright lied to about the job details. That's some amazing bullshit right there. 

 

At this point I was boiling over with rage.  I don't know whether I acted appropriately.  I told the foreman their words meant nothing.  Every time he attempted to bring a counterargument I spoke over him and repeated "So your words mean nothing".  He told me too had cancelled a vacation with his family, to which I responded "So your words mean nothing".  He continued to try to voice his side, but I just escalated by calling him a liar and a fucking liar as I threw down my hat and workshirt before storming out.

 

I'm boiling over with rage just reading about your experience. Honestly I wouldn't have had the tremendous amount of patience you displayed here, especially not when it interferes with your family. 

 

By leaving in a manner that will be viewed as "throwing a tantrum" or acting unprofessionally, I feel fairly confident that they will never analyze the root cause of the problem in our relationship.  They will write everything off as me being crazy or childish or any number of other derogatory terms.

 

As someone who likes to think they want to see a better world, I have to wonder if I'm not just spitting poison back at people in an effort to kill them with their own shortcomings.  I feel simultaneously ashamed of my response and proud of my response.  I'm ashamed of how I have represented philosophy but proud that those who wronged me will never see the light and eventually destroy themselves.

 

My question is, if I keep acting this way, am I part of the problem or part of the solution (is it not helpful to destroy those who reject reason?).  Perhaps something else.  I feel very ambivalent about my actions during this and many similar episodes of my life.

 

Let's be honest here, they wouldn't have analyzed the root cause no matter what you did. They wanted to use you and would not settle for anything less than total submission. I get the pride, but why would you feel shame here? Philosophy is about dealing with reality, and pretending that these people could be reasoned with absolutely no evidence for that would have been a total disservice to the truth.

 

If you don't treat people justly then you can't expect them to improve their behavior. If someone repeatedly assaults me and I keep going to them and pretending like we are friends then I'm spitting in the face of everyone who knows what true friendship is, and I'm encouraging further abuse. 

 

I'm surprised nobody responded to this earlier, but I hope I'm not too late as I'd like to hear more about it. I think the difference between you and Socrates is that he had no choice in who was around him while there are certainly better work environments available to you. That's not to diminish anything you've said; What I mean is what you pointed out earlier in your post, that there were signs early on that could have helped you avoid this experience. Do you think that you purposefully ignored them? Or was it a case of a lack of trust in your own judgment?

[jpahmad]

 

 

 

 

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As someone who likes to think they want to see a better world, I have to wonder if I'm not just spitting poison back at people in an effort to kill them with their own shortcomings.  I feel simultaneously ashamed of my response and proud of my response.  I'm ashamed of how I have represented philosophy but proud that those who wronged me will never see the light and eventually destroy themselves.

 

 

 

I've thought about this a lot.  I think that once you get the sense that someone isn't reasonable you should flip a switch and go into a completely different mode.  The mode is something along the lines of complete manipulation. 

 

Treat them how they treat you.  They don't deserve to be reasoned with.  They are malicious.  If you know this, and see them for what they are, you can beat them. 

 

This is just a theory though.  I haven't tried it yet. 

[GYre0ePJhZ]

I love Stef's acting and interpretation of the Trial and Death of Socrates. What is talked about here is very interesting to me and I thoroughly enjoyed your interpretation of your behavior through this framework. As to the question of whether you are part of the problem or the solution I don't think what you did is relevant to the question since you were in a situation of egregious lies and manipulations. Little good can be done in situations like that except refraining from enabling their corruption and showing them the negative consequences of their behavior, if possible.

 

I three days ago had a situation at my university where a girl in my class got really pissed off at me for simply disagreeing with her on a, for me, mundane topic (language policies). She started interrupting me, raising her voice, and mocking my arguments (which were sound). I told her that I did not want to discuss with her anymore because she was rude to me. She got even more angry after I said that and declared herself the winner and me to be childish. I said "blablabla" to her, where she responded "no, it's not blablabla", and I said "yes, your passive-aggressive behavior is like that". After that the situation ended and she left the group 5 minutes later.

 

What gets me the most is not that she was rude and labeled me childish. What gets me is that noone around dared to take a stance on her obvious verbally bullying behavior. I even asked some people in private what they thought of the situation, and they said "it's best to not discuss sensitive topics"  and "you are both very stubborn". They did not mention that I was perfectly nice to her all the way until I felt she was getting too rude, and that she was the one who started to raise her voice, interrupt me, mock my arguments, and calling me childish. In this I feel the same as Socrates, looking to other people who claim to be just, noble, and virtuous for support and protection from this verbal bully. But....nothing. Just diminishments, lectures on what topics I should discuss, and....indifference. They claim to be good, but turn their heads the other way when bad people are verbally abusing me, who is a good person. As a result I feel hate for these spineless unhumans and I want them to suffer for their cowardice.

 

Thank all that is good for my girlfriend who keep me sane in this insane and cowardly world (and that I am finished at the uni in 3 weeks).

 

Rant-mode off!