Can a guy have female friends?

[massaki]

Is it possible to be close with a female, without anything sexual, if you guys are both single? 

 

I have never had a female friend that i was close to , that i didn't start to feel attracted to, when we were both single.  I want to know your opinions.

[James Dean]

are you talking about physical attraction or emotional/romantic interest? 

[Kevin Beal]

[Tyler Durden]

I wanted to type something but the YouTube video says it all.

[MMX2010]

I wanted to type something but the YouTube video says it all.

 

Seconded.  Great video, Kevin. 

[sagiquarius]

So, can we all agree that a friend is defined as a meaningful relationship devoid of romantic and sexual attraction from either party?  So, does that mean a bisexual person is gonna have a hard time finding friends?  Do you avoid close friendships with the gender to which you're sexually attracted, or do you keep a handle on yourself and "be friends" anyway?   Ya know, with the knowledge that there is some attraction there.  I guess it depends on the personal dynamics.  What about folks who have tried dating, found it didn't work, but still remained close friends (I love ya like a sibling, but I don't wanna fuck ya)?  The mystery is gone, and they don't feel they are a good romantic couple.  If you aren't a good romantic couple, what does that say about the friendship?

 

Steve is pretty clear about it, and I believe he speaks for most of the population:

[cynicist]

Steve is pretty clear about it, and I believe he speaks for most of the population:

 

He's right. I mean if you like someone as a friend and also find them sexually attractive, why wouldn't you want a romantic relationship with them? Makes sense to me, but maybe we can get female input on this?

[AccuTron]

Thanks much for the great videos.  I had no idea what this day was to unfold to me.  Really cleaned up some loose ends.  I feel like a dozen rocks in my (male) shoes just got emptied into a little bowl that is labeled "a bunch of rocks".  It's the mental clarity.  Probably will help my posture too.

[aFireInside]

I think its rare. Almost impossible. 

 

Someone is going to like the other person . 

If the girl is more attractive then the guy likes her. 

If the guy is more attractive then the girl likes her. 

If both are unattractive then they both should like each other. 

If both are attractive then they both should like each other. 

 

If you are a friend it means you like each others company and you value their thoughts so why wouldn't you like the other person if you find them attractive? 

[...]

.

[Omega 3 snake oil]

I think its rare. Almost impossible. 

 

Someone is going to like the other person . 

If the girl is more attractive then the guy likes her. 

If the guy is more attractive then the girl likes her. 

If both are unattractive then they both should like each other. 

If both are attractive then they both should like each other. 

 

If you are a friend it means you like each others company and you value their thoughts so why wouldn't you like the other person if you find them attractive? 

Good topic.I find women are in fact difficult to be friends with, and attraction has something to do with it. But that's not the whole story.Even if physical attraction has come into play at some point, this should not necessarily preclude friendship. I think respect is the cornerstone of friendship, and that's what's missing. Women don't necessarily care about men other than as providers--of status, of comfort, of entertainment, etc. When the "provider of x in exchange for sex" deal is taken off the table, women tend to see men as loathsome, burdensome, overgrown boys.Without empathy there can be no respect. Without respect there can be no friendship.

[AccuTron]

... I found it confusing heterosexual women had this custom of being almost synchronized with their "best friend" or friend clique - men could change between situations and groups and remain themselves but women, always together never going anywhere by themselves. Women in general seem more boring. ...

 

.... With men I find it easier to share my life story with, with women it's like constant wait "if the Queen is on the mood to hear what's going on in your life".

 

.... With men I can in general discuss things like philosophy, history, music, psychology, art, economics, politics but with women real discussion is much harder to find at all. Women get more easily offended in my opinion if you bring any real things on the table, because the table is already set with their direct short term needs. Does this come down to the estrogen based parasite model?

Wow.  This is my lucky day, too bad it's because others suffer.  This is really helpful to this male.  I had a >former< female friend, which I triggered thru an admittedly pointed email about how she can be dismissive of males, yet who would be the ones she calls on if a criminal threatened her.  I sometimes try to figure out how to approach her, if I even want to, trying to talk to her without triggering another late middle age hissy fit that would get a four year old grounded for a week.  (Of course she votes...but discuss topics, why do that when already smug and superior?  Oh yeah, when younger, was into N.O.W.   Somehow feminism didn't teach her to be grateful to the strangers who would give their lives for her simply because she has ovaries.)

[st434u]

So many over the top generalizations in this thread...

 

And I thought I was always the one being accused of being sexist, lol.

[AccuTron]

Good topic.I find women are in fact difficult to be friends with, and attraction has something to do with it. But that's not the whole story.Even if physical attraction has come into play at some point, this should not necessarily preclude friendship. I think respect is the cornerstone of friendship, and that's what's missing. Women don't necessarily care about men other than as providers--of status, of comfort, of entertainment, etc. When the "provider of x in exchange for sex" deal is taken off the table, women tend to see men as loathsome, burdensome, overgrown boys.Without empathy there can be no respect. Without respect there can be no friendship.

 

"difficult"  That word strongly resonates with my experience.  Red Skelton, in a long ago comedy skit as a cowboy, referred to women as spelled out "t-r-o-u-b-l-e."  It got a good audience laugh.  This goes back a long way.

So many over the top generalizations in this thread...

 

And I thought I was always the one being accused of being sexist, lol.

 

I have learned that many generalizations have a core of truth.  As I'm reading this topic, various sentences shout out to me, as referring to, and somewhat explaining, more incidents than I could count.  

[JohnH.]

I have more girl friends than guy friends, so I'm going to have to say yes, guys and girls can be just friends.  I actually prefer having girl friends over guy friends.  That's not to say that I dislike being friends with guys, but my experience has been that most of the guys I meet always want to talk about sports, chicks, and other stupid crap.  They never want to, or perhaps aren't even capable of, opening up with me on a personal level.  Girls I know still like to talk about the female corollaries to sports and chicks, but they tend to be more willing to become emotionally vulnerable with me which enables us to have a better relationship.

 

If you find yourself incapable of being friends with members of the opposite sex, maybe you should try to discover why, because I can attest to the fact that it is indeed possible.

 

 

 

He's right. I mean if you like someone as a friend and also find them sexually attractive, why wouldn't you want a romantic relationship with them? Makes sense to me, but maybe we can get female input on this? 

Different goals in life.  For example, maybe she wants kids and he doesn't or maybe she wants to dedicate her time to work and he wants someone that will be around more often.  There are plenty of reasons why you can be sexually attracted to someone and not want a romantic relationship.  I find one of my girl friends semi-attractive, but have no interest in a romantic relationship because, among other things, she has a child and I don't want another.

[cynicist]

Different goals in life.  For example, maybe she wants kids and he doesn't or maybe she wants to dedicate her time to work and he wants someone that will be around more often.  There are plenty of reasons why you can be sexually attracted to someone and not want a romantic relationship.  I find one of my girl friends semi-attractive, but have no interest in a romantic relationship because, among other things, she has a child and I don't want another.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. If you like someone and they are a romantic possibility for you (meaning they are attractive, available, have similar goals, etc) then it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to friendship does it? 

 

I mean if I had a choice between a car and a car with all the upgrades, then assuming that I liked the upgrades and that they were free, why would I pass them up?

[fractional slacker]

"First know thyself."Kevin's video, while amusing, is questionable philosophically given the demographic. The only way it could be more skewed is if it were conducted at a single's bar.Steve Harvey? Not a great comedian and his thinking skills lag far behind his mediocre comedic skills. His argument, like most folks is: I can't, therefore the world can't.

 

It's easy to show why men and women can be friends. Ever hear of brothers and sisters who are friends? Maybe you buy into the Freudian thing- the something or other complex where daughthers secretly want to sleep with their fathers, and by extension, their siblings? Interesting theory, however,  not sure what the null hypothesis would be.

 

Oh, and for those that are shaking their finger at me and saying "Yeah, but that's family - flesh and blood!" Come on now. This is FDR. The family thing is easy to put to the test. Just look at adoption. No biology shared, and yet they are friends with the opposite sex with no romantic inclinations.Someone brought up a good point when they mentioned the bisexual angel. They can't have friends?

 

Male/female friendhsips void of any alterior romantic feelings are probably the exception. But mistaking the world for yourself seems the default position of most folks who argue no such thing as a platonic friendship between men and women.  

[Kevin Beal]

I think that of course it's possible. I've had female friends in my life. I just posted the video to highlight what I see as a problem.

 

If I'm not attracted, it's usually fine for me. I try not to worry about it. If they are attracted to me, then that's not my responsibility, so long as I'm not leading them on.

 

If I am attracted, then I just know that I'm never going to be satisfied with friendship. It's never going to work for me and I'm either going to pursue it romantically or drift apart pretty quickly.

 

If I'm not attracted, but she is, then I find it difficult personally to know what is leading her on or not. Maybe other people don't have that problem, but I've been accused of it a couple times. So generally I stay away from friendships with females, unless I know there is no attraction either way and I actually enjoy spending time with them. This hasn't happened since high school for me...

 

I'd be happy to have female friends, but there's a significant issue of attraction to consider that you don't have to think about with guy friends.

 

All the guys I've talked to about it have had similar experiences / attitude.

 

Women I've talked to about it don't seem to think it's that big of a deal whether or not there is attraction. That seems so weird to me, but maybe that's because I'm missing something. I don't know.

[sagiquarius]

I think that of course it's possible. I've had female friends in my life. I just posted the video to highlight what I see as a problem.

 

If I'm not attracted, it's usually fine for me. I try not to worry about it. If they are attracted to me, then that's not my responsibility, so long as I'm not leading them on.

 

If I am attracted, then I just know that I'm never going to be satisfied with friendship. It's never going to work for me and I'm either going to pursue it romantically or drift apart pretty quickly.

 

If I'm not attracted, but she is, then I find it difficult personally to know what is leading her on or not. Maybe other people don't have that problem, but I've been accused of it a couple times. So generally I stay away from friendships with females, unless I know there is no attraction either way and I actually enjoy spending time with them. This hasn't happened since high school for me...

 

I'd be happy to have female friends, but there's a significant issue of attraction to consider that you don't have to think about with guy friends.

 

All the guys I've talked to about it have had similar experiences / attitude.

 

Women I've talked to about it don't seem to think it's that big of a deal whether or not there is attraction. That seems so weird to me, but maybe that's because I'm missing something. I don't know.

 

Yeah, I heard this my brother.  Being friends with somebody for whom you have a strong, unrequited attraction, is a terrible experience.  I hate the feelings that type of interaction brings up:  The longing, the wondering why, the "what if" statements, the efforts of "doing stuff" to be more appealing.  My tactic to handle that situation is to be honest with my feelings.  I had one friend that I struggled with this a lot.  I flat out told her "dude, I don't think I can do this, being around you is really hard for me."  Eventually, I was able to get past it, but we aren't close friends ... and  I like it that way.  Do you even bother to get that far, Kevin, or do you just cut it off without saying something?  I mean, if there is some mutual respect you might at least give her a reason why you may want to back off, right?

 

I wonder why it's not such a big issue for women relative to men?  It doesn't seem to be a big deal for gay guys either - at least the ones I've dealt with.

 

So many over the top generalizations in this thread...

 

And I thought I was always the one being accused of being sexist, lol.

 

Sorry, Why did you feel this needed to be said?  Of course we're speaking in generalizations (we need to, right?).  I'm not trying to be a dick or anything; I really don't understand why somebody has to point this out when these types of conversations come up.  Generalization is an easy way to discuss a recognized prevailing pattern within a system or social context.  Why does generalization have a negative reputation?

 

I'm a lesbian and I have never had close female friends, nor I seek one. Because why seek only a friend when you could get the whole deal. As a child I found it confusing heterosexual women had this custom of being almost synchronized with their "best friend" or friend clique - men could change between situations and groups and remain themselves but women, always together never going anywhere by themselves. Women in general seem more boring. Interestingly enough I've still had the most stimulating conversations with women, but that dates ten years back in my life when I was in middle school.

 

The other was my first friend from internet and the other my teacher, both of which I shared my life story the first time ever and spoke with bigger things. I had had two-three "friends" in school and nurseries before but I never really shared anything with them, I mostly listened and made comments to fill gaps in their speech so I would not have to speak anything - I was terrified of that and I became even more terrified when I understood what it means that I don't like men romantically and sexually like other women did. With men I find it easier to share my life story with, with women it's like constant wait "if the Queen is on the mood to hear what's going on in your life".

 

Of course in my family sharing your emotions and personal history wasn't done in any shape of form, only trivial things like which school they went etc. But as I've now learned, that's more common than it's rare. With men I can in general discuss things like philosophy, history, music, psychology, art, economics, politics but with women real discussion is much harder to find at all. Women get more easily offended in my opinion if you bring any real things on the table, because the table is already set with their direct short term needs. Does this come down to the estrogen based parasite model?

Interesting, thanks for sharing.  So, do you find it difficult to be friends with females because of the potential for attraction (like what Kevin and I were saying above), or is it more that you find most females to be tedious and vapid?  I've heard this complaint before, and have noticed that it's pretty difficult to find girls that like to talk about the things you mentioned.  Guys seem to have a broader interest in stuff like psychology, philosophy, the workings of things.  Dunno why.  In my observation, this stuff is more likely to be of interest to bi or gay girls relative to het girls.  Come to think of it, I don't have anybody in my memory that I can list as an exception to this trend.  There's got to be, I know it, but I'm betting most straight girls have different priorities for their romantic partners.

 

I dunno, I'm betting you've hung around way more girls of either orientation than I have.  What do you think?  Do you notice any sort of patterns that tend to go along with sexual orientation?

[JohnH.]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. If you like someone and they are a romantic possibility for you (meaning they are attractive, available, have similar goals, etc) then it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to friendship does it? 

 

I mean if I had a choice between a car and a car with all the upgrades, then assuming that I liked the upgrades and that they were free, why would I pass them up?

Assuming he wants the relationship and she doesn't, I could understand why it would become difficult to have a platonic relationship with someone you have unrequited strong feelings for.  However, I think the biggest factor at play is his emotional stability.  If he's incapable of working through his feelings and accepting the fact that she is only interested in a platonic friendship then he has bigger issues to focus on (self knowledge).  To use your analogy: if you couldn't get the car with the upgrades (she doesn't want a romantic relationship) would you then refuse to get a car at all (platonic relationship)?

 

It has always been easy for me to be friends with women so I might be coming at this from a different perspective.  I see a romantic relationship as an upgrade over a platonic relationship which is an upgrade over a non-relationship.  If a romantic relationship is off the table, I have to be honest with myself.  Since all of the qualities that I like about this person are still there, it would be nonsensical for me to downgrade all the way to a non-relationship.

[...]

.

[sagiquarius]

That's helpful, thank you.  When you say "nerdy", are you referring to those like are into things like sci-fi/fantasy, board games, reads more than the average ... that type of nerdy?

[LovePrevails]

Why not? Many of my best friends are women

I have never had a female friend that i was close to , that i didn't start to feel attracted to, when we were both single.  I want to know your opinions.

 

maybe you didn't feel like you had a lot of choice with women so you fancied all women who took an interest in you?

I'm just asking because this can happen I'm not saying it's definitely true

[endostate]

Related: http://laddertheory.com/

 

"The ladder theory is a funny, scientific explanation of how men and women
are attracted to each other. It also covers such topics as why women
sometimes just want to be friends but men always want sex. It is based upon
many years of sociological field testing, and was first conceptualized in
1994 in Exeter, CA by Dallas Lynn with acknowledgements to Jared Whitson for
his role in formalizing the theory."

 

 

[...]

. 

[cynicist]

Assuming he wants the relationship and she doesn't, I could understand why it would become difficult to have a platonic relationship with someone you have unrequited strong feelings for.  However, I think the biggest factor at play is his emotional stability.  If he's incapable of working through his feelings and accepting the fact that she is only interested in a platonic friendship then he has bigger issues to focus on (self knowledge).  To use your analogy: if you couldn't get the car with the upgrades (she doesn't want a romantic relationship) would you then refuse to get a car at all (platonic relationship)?

 

It has always been easy for me to be friends with women so I might be coming at this from a different perspective.  I see a romantic relationship as an upgrade over a platonic relationship which is an upgrade over a non-relationship.  If a romantic relationship is off the table, I have to be honest with myself.  Since all of the qualities that I like about this person are still there, it would be nonsensical for me to downgrade all the way to a non-relationship.

 

Incapable of working through feelings? Uh, I guess that's one way to put it. Another might be not wanting to torture yourself by being around someone you are attracted to who will never feel the same way about you. It's one thing if she's already unavailable (married or lesbian for example) but if not then the implication is that you don't meet her standards in one way or another. I don't know how any self-respecting man could stay in a relationship like that, where the woman thinks you are deficient in some way. I would either want to meet that standard or drop the relationship because the emotional turmoil would be too great.

 

To continue my analogy beyond the point of usefulness : Of course I would refuse to get the car! Then I would go to another dealership where I could get what I wanted plus the upgrades. Otherwise I would be thinking, "Why couldn't I get them? I thought I had the money that I needed, but apparently it wasn't good enough for the salesman".

 

If you've been in the situation I'm describing, did you ever ask why not? 

[JohnH.]

Incapable of working through feelings? Uh, I guess that's one way to put it. Another might be not wanting to torture yourself by being around someone you are attracted to who will never feel the same way about you. It's one thing if she's already unavailable (married or lesbian for example) but if not then the implication is that you don't meet her standards in one way or another. I don't know how any self-respecting man could stay in a relationship like that, where the woman thinks you are deficient in some way. I would either want to meet that standard or drop the relationship because the emotional turmoil would be too great.

 

To continue my analogy beyond the point of usefulness : Of course I would refuse to get the car! Then I would go to another dealership where I could get what I wanted plus the upgrades. Otherwise I would be thinking, "Why couldn't I get them? I thought I had the money that I needed, but apparently it wasn't good enough for the salesman".

 

If you've been in the situation I'm describing, did you ever ask why not? 

I don't understand the bolded.  If they don't want to be with you, they are unavailable to you.  This is true for every non-romantic relationship you have.  All of your regular friends find you deficient (to use your term) in one way or another, and likewise you find them deficient in one way or another.  I think you should ask yourself why you find yourself romantically attracted to people that are unavailable to you.  Doesn't the fact that they are unavailable make you not want to have a romantic relationship with them?

 

I have found myself in the situation you put forward; I got both.

 

Earlier you stated:

Sorry, I should have been more clear. If you like someone and they are a romantic possibility for you (meaning they are attractive, available, have similar goals, etc) then it doesn't make sense to limit yourself to friendship does it?"

 

But they don't have similar goals, they don't want to be with you for whatever reason–maybe they find you physically unattractive–nor are they available.  

 

When you say available, do you mean single?

[cynicist]

I don't understand the bolded.  If they don't want to be with you, they are unavailable to you.  This is true for every non-romantic relationship you have.  All of your regular friends find you deficient (to use your term) in one way or another, and likewise you find them deficient in one way or another.  I think you should ask yourself why you find yourself romantically attracted to people that are unavailable to you.  Doesn't the fact that they are unavailable make you not want to have a romantic relationship with them?

 

By available I didn't mean available for me in particular. I meant "on the market" so to speak, that the woman is single and straight and looking for men to date. 

 

Of course friends aren't perfect, but both parties still have to agree in the end in order for the friendship to occur. When I speak of deficiency, I mean a deficiency that is considered bad enough to prevent a relationship from forming. (or going any further than friendship)

 

I almost instantly lose interest when I find out a woman is taken. Cheating is gross in my opinion so that's not an issue for me.

 

I have found myself in the situation you put forward; I got both.

 

What do you mean by 'got both'? 

 

But they don't have similar goals, they don't want to be with you for whatever reason–maybe they find you physically unattractive–nor are they available.  

 

Well that's the question isn't it? If they themselves are attractive, single, looking for a man to date, and even share similar values (which they would have to if they were a friend) there must be something about you that doesn't meet their standards. That's what I mean by deficient.

[J-William]

It's difficult for two reasons: Most women do not share those interests and very small minority of women are exclusively sexually oriented towards women. Because the latter is more rare, while even searching for women who are interested in talking big and deep issues, I'm also headed to know very early on are they interested in women. With internet this is much less complicated but then comes the real difficulty with every person regardless of orientations or interests, are they committed to pursuit self knowledge and love philosophy. If they don't, it doesn't matter so much what else makes them tick, because I know I cannot anymore stand people who lack that honesty. Finding women who combine all those needed qualities wouldn't make sense if the goal was "just be friends", it would be torture. 

 

You've clearly thought long and hard about this topic.

It is certainly hard to find friends who are interested in self-knowledge and philosophy. I am a straight male and have had girl friends who were not into self-knowledge and philosophy, they are no longer my friends.

I think this topic is about guys who want pretty girls and pretty girls who don't want unattractive guys. The key is self-knowledge if you lack self-knowledge than sexual attraction will be very confusing.

[LovePrevails]

Related: http://laddertheory.com/

 

"The ladder theory is a funny, scientific explanation of how men and women

are attracted to each other. It also covers such topics as why women

sometimes just want to be friends but men always want sex. It is based upon

many years of sociological field testing, and was first conceptualized in

1994 in Exeter, CA by Dallas Lynn with acknowledgements to Jared Whitson for

his role in formalizing the theory."

 

 

 

 

Urm kind of degrading to men, no?

I know it's a joke and I see the funny side but it does perpetuate a negative stereotype about us

[PatrickC]

Women I've talked to about it don't seem to think it's that big of a deal whether or not there is attraction. That seems so weird to me, but maybe that's because I'm missing something. I don't know.

 

That's mostly because of priorities. In general a mans priority is to have sex. Whereas a womans priority is gathering resources from other men. Many women might see attraction as useful in that pursuit.

 

Of course there are varying shades of grey between them and certainly all women desire sex. Except, since they are the gatekeepers of the frolicking garden of love they can be more choosy about whom they have it with.

 

It's an interesting topic. I will say that before philosophy I did'nt really have many interesting conversations with women and since being burned by the friendszone a couple of times in my teens. Women were strictly a pursuit of pleasure or they were a romantic relationship we both wanted to pursue. Female friends were mostly girlfriends friends or male friends wives or girlfriends.

 

That said, these days I tend to agree with Fractional that it's kind of absurd to say it's impossible. I have females approaching me for conversation and interaction enough times to understand that it's not always about sex or my resources. Certainly advice, listening and sharing are a kind of resource. But when it comes to philosophy and those willing to listen, it's mostly a pleasure for me.

 

I will say however, that often the richest relationships I have, other than the romantic ones with women, do tend be with other men. I think this is because men often share many more interests than they do with women.

[Kevin Beal]

That said, these days I tend to agree with Fractional that it's kind of absurd to say it's impossible. I have females approaching me for conversation and interaction enough times to understand that it's not always about sex or my resources. Certainly advice, listening and sharing are a kind of resource. But when it comes to philosophy and those willing to listen, it's mostly a pleasure for me.

Well maybe it's a difference in defining "friendship" then. Because certainly I've had conversations with women who probably aren't after my D or my $. I do this daily with some very pleasant and nice ladies in my life. If that's your definition, then I've got plenty of friends who are girls.

 

To be intimate, however, like disclosing really personal things you don't tell other people, sharing where your insecurities and vulnerabilities are, and the sorts of things that would, for me, distinguish an acquaintance from a real friend; I have a noticeable amount more trouble doing this with women without it becoming loaded and complicated for me. And I'm not convinced that this is all just my own baggage that I just need to get over.

 

Some of it is my baggage, I'm sure, and having had a female therapist for the past (almost) 4 years, disclosing very personal things and sharing my insecurities and vulnerabilities, it's been loaded and complicated at times for me. But I have at least some idea of how much of that is my own baggage and where it's just reality.

 

If I have enough closeness to be really vulnerable with a woman and there is mutual trust and respect and all of that, and she's available and anywhere near my age, then it seems insane to me that I would just stay friends with her. Being how rare that is (at least for me) I would be working double-time to have a romantic relationship with her.

 

I've noticed disappointment when I try and have that with women that I don't date. Either I come to want to date them and it's just not going to happen, or the connection ended up being superficial. Just simply being friends in the way I mean "friends" just never happens in my life, and I'm inclined to believe that it happens this way generally. Any disagreement, I believe, is simply about miscommunication. So hopefully I've communicated it well enough to find agreement.

 

If a guy tells me that they have this and it's not a family member or something like that, then I'm very suspicious.

[sagiquarius]

Well maybe it's a difference in defining "friendship" then. Because certainly I've had conversations with women who probably aren't after my D or my $. I do this daily with some very pleasant and nice ladies in my life. If that's your definition, then I've got plenty of friends who are girls.

 

To be intimate, however, like disclosing really personal things you don't tell other people, sharing where your insecurities and vulnerabilities are, and the sorts of things that would, for me, distinguish an acquaintance from a real friend; I have a noticeable amount more trouble doing this with women without it becoming loaded and complicated for me. And I'm not convinced that this is all just my own baggage that I just need to get over.

 

Some of it is my baggage, I'm sure, and having had a female therapist for the past (almost) 4 years, disclosing very personal things and sharing my insecurities and vulnerabilities, it's been loaded and complicated at times for me. But I have at least some idea of how much of that is my own baggage and where it's just reality.

 

If I have enough closeness to be really vulnerable with a woman and there is mutual trust and respect and all of that, and she's available and anywhere near my age, then it seems insane to me that I would just stay friends with her. Being how rare that is (at least for me) I would be working double-time to have a romantic relationship with her.

 

I've noticed disappointment when I try and have that with women that I don't date. Either I come to want to date them and it's just not going to happen, or the connection ended up being superficial. Just simply being friends in the way I mean "friends" just never happens in my life, and I'm inclined to believe that it happens this way generally. Any disagreement, I believe, is simply about miscommunication. So hopefully I've communicated it well enough to find agreement.

 

If a guy tells me that they have this and it's not a family member or something like that, then I'm very suspicious.

Welp, I'm convinced.  I say that after considering my own experiences as well.  May it be on my side or theirs, there almost always does seem to be one person in the friendship that thinks about a romantic partnership.  Of course, it's possible to continue to be friends if your romantic/life partner goals don't mesh, but it can be hard.  Still, I"m a strong advocate for getting romantic attractions out in the open for discussion.  Keeping that shit bottled up is awful.

 

Kevin, what do you mean when you say "loaded and complicated?"

[Eva]

All this false dichotomy and conversations show is how devoid of meaning and philosophy the concept of friendship is for most people, and how deeply ingrained certain false morals around monogamy are... I think it is very sad.

For those who understand friendship requires intimacy--and of course that mind and body are not separate--sexuality is just another side of friendship. 

[Kevin Beal]

Kevin, what do you mean when you say "loaded and complicated?"

Mostly I mean feeling attracted to someone who is not going to date me and trying to manage my own discomfort around that.

 

For those who understand friendship requires intimacy--and of course that mind and body are not separate--sexuality is just another side of friendship. 

I'm not into dudes...