NojusArturo Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 If Stef has answered this question a lot in the past I apologize, I was just wondering what his opinions on gay parenting are? Are they doomed? Are they in some ways better off? Are there any gender roles that have no suitable replacements or substitutes? I'm not homosexual myself, I was just watching the show Modern Family, which is hilarious and co-features a gay couple.
AustinJames Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 There are a few studies that have sought to answer this question, though the conclusions drawn from the data are steeped in controversy. There is an AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) report, citing dozens of independent studies, that claims there is no direct correlation between negative childhood experiences/developmental problems and gay parents. This report is at odds with a study by Mark Regnerus, which claims that data shows adverse complications with gay parenting. The Regnerus study has been roundly criticized. Its critics say the flaw lies in lumping all parents who have homosexual tendencies into one category. They claim the conclusions would be vastly different if they considered gay couples in long-term, committed relationships to be in a different category than heterosexual couples in which one partner has had homosexual experiences. The AAP report has also been criticized, along with the associated studies, most prominently by Robert Lerner and Althea Nagai. They produced a report entitled, "No Basis: What the Studies Don't Tell Us About Same Sex Parenting." This report can be found here: http://protectmarriage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/nobasis.pdf I'm not sure there is anything close to a scientific consensus on this issue, but there is a lot of compelling evidence that gay couples can do a fine job raising children; though they may be more likely to have problems with their children dealing with sexuality and other identity issues.
Pepin Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 In some of the studies I have seen, they perform worse than heterosexual couples. I am open to this being the case, not because homosexuality is the contributing factor, but because homosexuals are far more subject to abuse and prejudice than the average straight person. Part of the issues with these studies is that negative results are highly politicized without an understanding of the factors involved. If homosexual couples tend to make worse parents because society in general mocks and abuses them, then the problem is not with the homosexual couple, but with the culture. My essential claim is that homosexual couples will produce the same level of parenting if early experiences are taken into consideration.
NotDarkYet Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Hi NojusArturo, I don't recall Stef bringing this up. What are your thoughts on the matter? I wonder what it would be like to have two moms, or two dads. I have no idea what that would be like, but certainly it would have been better than the emotional/intellectual freeze-out that was my childhood.
AustinJames Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Pepin, I agree the possible negative outcomes are likely due to the surrounding culture, and not a direct result of gay parenting. While you're also right that "negative results are highly politicized without an understanding of the factors involved," positive results are often claimed as well, or negative results obscured, for the same reason of politicization. I would be interested in a study centered around gender roles as opposed to sexuality. I was raised in a traditional family, and I found the gender roles modeled by my parents to be helpful in learning how to solve problems and negotiate. It seems to me the traditional gender roles are optimal for child-rearing, but that's not to say that these roles could not be modeled by homosexual couples, perhaps better even than heterosexual ones (i.e. Robin Williams and Nathan Lane in The Birdcage).
LovePrevails Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 I would rather children were with caring, attentive, nurturing gay parents than the average. Since couples who adopt need to be rigorously screened (don't they?) it might not be bad on average that isn't empirical but I think worth considering
NojusArturo Posted April 24, 2014 Author Posted April 24, 2014 Hi NojusArturo, I don't recall Stef bringing this up. What are your thoughts on the matter? I wonder what it would be like to have two moms, or two dads. I have no idea what that would be like, but certainly it would have been better than the emotional/intellectual freeze-out that was my childhood. I don't see anything wrong with a homosexual couple adopting a child to raise it together. I think they have to account for the lack of a mother or father the best they are able, but I believe a child can become a good independent adult being raised with two moms or dads.
MMX2010 Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Since couples who adopt need to be rigorously screened (don't they?) it might not be bad on average My counter-argument would be, "Since couples who adopt need to be rigorously screened, then adoptive parents should be vastly superior to non-adoptive parents. But I haven't seen any studies which suggest this." Disclaimer - I don't spend hours upon hours researching this, so the fact that I "haven't seen" this is not very important at all, if scientific understanding is your primary goal.
LovePrevails Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 My counter-argument would be, "Since couples who adopt need to be rigorously screened, then adoptive parents should be vastly superior to non-adoptive parents. But I haven't seen any studies which suggest this." Disclaimer - I don't spend hours upon hours researching this, so the fact that I "haven't seen" this is not very important at all, if scientific understanding is your primary goal. 4 one thing on it http://www.iaccenter.com/adoptive_investment.pdf
MMX2010 Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 4 one thing on it http://www.iaccenter.com/adoptive_investment.pdf If that study is true, and if it catches on society-wide, then it's a huge victory for Stef's perspectives.
tjt Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 I don't know if a screening process ensures better parents, after all isn't adoption regulated and carried out by the state (I could be wrong, please feel free to correct me)? I sometimes watch Modern Family because it's entertaining, but many of the relationships in the show are immoral, dysfunctional and pretty pathetic. The gay couple is especially disappointing (not because they are gay, I hope I'm clear about that!). I consider them to be bad parents, for example in some of the episodes I've seen, they lie to each other unrepentantly. They also lie to their child, bribe her with toys and snacks, and get her to lie to the other parent. I've seen them openly complain about their daughter while she is in the general vicinity, they simply start to whisper. They also have narcissistic tendencies, which many people on this forum know first hand makes for a terrible parent. I'd say these characters are pretty horrible parents, which is sad considering that some people will base their opinions about gay parents on this show. Some specific examples: * They pretend to be connoisseurs of fine art during a visit to an art museum to impress one another, lying to each other and their niece and nephew, until they can no longer keep up with the lie. * During a vacation to Las Vegas, they run into one of their exes. And although they had originally agreed to a couple's day of massages etc., one of them literally sneaks out of the massage to meet up with the ex and party. That's all I can come up with right now, I can't remember anything specific involving the mistreatment of their daughter, but it's a pretty common theme. You could probably find a good example in just two episodes.
Archimedes Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 Wikipedia gives a great overview on this topic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting quote: "Scientific research has been generally consistent in showing that gay and lesbian parents are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Major associations of mental health professionals in the U.S., Canada, and Australia have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise."
tiepolo Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 The phrase 'gay parents' is an oxymoron and a biological impossibility, since you don't get babies from buggery or cunnilingus, however much fun you might have trying. This is a fact that seems to be being widely overlooked.
Wesley Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 The phrase 'gay parents' is an oxymoron and a biological impossibility, since you don't get babies from buggery or cunnilingus, however much fun you might have trying. This is a fact that seems to be being widely overlooked. Parenting is something you do continuously over years and has just about nothing to do with the instantaneous moments of sex or birth. At least, that is how I look at it.
st434u Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 The question is compared to what? Compared to a straight couple, I would say the straight couple is more likely to raise the kid in a healthy way. Compared to foster care courtesy of the State, the gay couple is more likely to raise the kid in a healthy way.
MMX2010 Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 Wikipedia gives a great overview on this topic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting quote: "Scientific research has been generally consistent in showing that gay and lesbian parents are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and their children are as psychologically healthy and well-adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents. Major associations of mental health professionals in the U.S., Canada, and Australia have not identified credible empirical research that suggests otherwise." I agree with the scientific research, but dislike the way it is phrased. (Which really means I dislike the way the original research question was asked.) If LGBT individuals are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, but heterosexual parents are, generally, not very fit nor very capable, then LGBT individuals mustn't be very fit nor very capable. But if LGBT individuals are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and heterosexual parents, are, generally, quite fit and capable, then LGBT individuals must be very fit and very capable. My own sense is that a maximum of 20% of parents are fit and capable.
JamesP Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 Regarding adoption: the rigor of screening has everything to do with the agency. My father and his second wife were able to adopt a child, but they never interviewed me. You'd think that would be on the list.
MMX2010 Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 Regarding adoption: the rigor of screening has everything to do with the agency. My father and his second wife were able to adopt a child, but they never interviewed me. You'd think that would be on the list. That's just insane.
Archimedes Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 I agree with the scientific research, but dislike the way it is phrased. (Which really means I dislike the way the original research question was asked.) If LGBT individuals are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, but heterosexual parents are, generally, not very fit nor very capable, then LGBT individuals mustn't be very fit nor very capable. But if LGBT individuals are as fit and capable as heterosexual parents, and heterosexual parents, are, generally, quite fit and capable, then LGBT individuals must be very fit and very capable. My own sense is that a maximum of 20% of parents are fit and capable. I agree with that. It's just that this topic always implies that gay people are somewhat different in their parenting. I wanted to point out that there is no scientific evidence to believe that.
JamesP Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 My only real concern with gay parenting is pretty much the same concern as adoptive parenting (I'm ignoring surrogacy for the moment)--the baby may well miss out on the benefits of breastfeeding, and it's not like a child given up for adoption has been in a low stress environment while in the womb. Otherwise, it's about the self-knowledge of the parents and their capacity to negotiate and empathize with the child, which I think is orthogonal to sexuality.
MMX2010 Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 I agree with that. It's just that this topic always implies that gay people are somewhat different in their parenting. I wanted to point out that there is no scientific evidence to believe that. I agree with you. But Stef's podcasts make me strongly feel that "Gay parents are just as good as straight parents." doesn't at all evaluating parenting in ways that benefit children. I think such a statement refuses to evaluate parenting in ways that benefit children.
Wesley Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 I also have a minor concern that gay parents of a girl would likely need to make extra effort to have good female role models in their child's life and lesbian parents of a boy would probably need to work to have good male role models in their child's life. Not that this wouldn't be something that should be worked on with any child, I think it might be more important in those situations. Of course, this is just me postulating and might not be an issue at all, but I know that as a boy I would have liked to have more positive male role models in my life and not as many women, which could be more difficult to achieve if both my parents were female, all my teachers were female, etc. Otherwise, I also agree with the others that there are far more important and meaningful factors that go into a child's development like empathy and negotiation and the absence of abuse and more that have nothing to do with parental sexuality. If someone can accomplish those things well, then they are 99% there and the last 1% won't have a large effect.
st434u Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 capacity to negotiate and empathize with the child, which I think is orthogonal to sexuality.Why do you think the two are never related? Childhood trauma that is never dealt with can definitely affect someone's sexual preferences. The typical example is someone who is beat severely as a child, and goes on to enjoy BDSM as an adult.
JamesP Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Why do you think the two are never related? Childhood trauma that is never dealt with can definitely affect someone's sexual preferences. The typical example is someone who is beat severely as a child, and goes on to enjoy BDSM as an adult. Why did you take half a sentence and respond to that as if that was all that I had said? That's not very honest.
st434u Posted May 13, 2014 Posted May 13, 2014 Why did you take half a sentence and respond to that as if that was all that I had said? That's not very honest. Sorry, I meant to quote the whole sentence. I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of difference, anyway. And how is it dishonest?
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