pipeline_mike Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Masturbation is simply much more entertaining and only slightly less repetitive, depending on the individual.
AustinJames Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 I down-voted this post because it seems malicious and non-sensical. Can you bring any reason to this idea? What does this have to do with determinism? What is added to the conversation?
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Determinism is AAAAAWWWWSOOOOOOOME!!! How does the brain work? ANS: Determinism. How does choice work? ANS: Determinism. How does gravity work? ANS: Determinism. How does evolution work? ANS: Determinism. How does grass grow? ANS: Determinism. How does [insert X] work? ANS: DETERMINISM. Determinism answers everything. When ya ain't got GOD, determinism fills the gap.
greekredemption Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 How does the brain work? ANS: Physical processes. How does choice work? ANS: Physical processes. How does gravity work? ANS: Physical processes. How does evolution work? ANS: Physical processes. How does grass grow? ANS: Physical processes. How does [insert X] work? ANS: Physical processes. Physical processes can explain everything. When ya ain't got GOD, Physical processes fill the gap. Ftfy
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Ftfy HA HA HA HA HA HA You could not have illustrated my point more. "Determinism" or "Physical processes" or "Stuff happens" or "cause and effect". It's the same dumb non-answer given by the same dumb determinists. You ain't got god so fill the sucking gap with "determinism" and you feel nice and secure.
greekredemption Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 HA HA HA HA HA HA You could not have illustrated my point more. "Determinism" or "Physical processes" or "Stuff happens" or "cause and effect". It's the same dumb non-answer given by the same dumb determinists. You ain't got god so fill the sucking gap with "determinism" and you feel nice and secure. Ah, fair enough. Magic it is, then.
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Ah, fair enough. Magic it is, then. Awesome. THAT is the fucking icing on the cake. If it's not "determinism" it's magic. A perfect ten of determinist dumb. If you want to go for a TEN PLUS then do the "Determined or random" false dichotomy.
greekredemption Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Awesome. THAT is the fucking icing on the cake. If it's not "determinism" it's magic. A perfect ten of determinist dumb. If you want to go for a TEN PLUS then do the "Determined or random" false dichotomy. Hey now you're the one saying determinism, I've not said it once. Except for just then. But don't let me get in the way of your anger!
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Hey now you're the one saying determinism, I've not said it once. Except for just then. But don't let me get in the way of your anger! Ha ha ha ha ha I didn't predict "Don't get angry bro!" huffy face. Why'd you remove "sarcasm"? Oh please tell me about the "causal chain". That shit melts my butta.
greekredemption Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Ha ha ha ha ha I didn't predict "Don't get angry bro!" huffy face. Why'd you remove "sarcasm"? Oh please tell me about the "causal chain". That shit melts my butta. This subject, along with any discussion on moral nihilism, provokes such furious reactions on this forum. I mean in your case it IS mostly an arrogant sarcasm, but honestly I am keen to know why so much anger for two of philosophy's most basic concerns.
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 This subject, along with any discussion on moral nihilism, provokes such furious reactions on this forum. I mean in your case it IS mostly an arrogant sarcasm, but honestly I am keen to know why so much anger for two of philosophy's most basic concerns. Determinist: Hey free-willer, don't be so arrogant (even though you have no control over your actions because you have no free will and there was absolutely no possibility of you behaving otherwise and every action is utterly pre-determined and there actually IS no self, only the mindless playing out of unconscious material forces). Hey free-willer (who I'll just accuse of believing in magic, despite the fact you've repeatedly stated you do not and have stated you don't know how human choice works), don't be so arrogant. Don't you know there is a "causal chain" and you see this causal chain goes back and back and all your choices have nothing to do with you. Now you should choose not to be so arrogant. You should be more like determinists who humbly make the positive claim that free will is an illusion and all choice is completely pre-determined; Unlike the arrogant free-will loons who claim to not know. Don't you know that determinism is one of philosophy's most basic concerns? (even though determinists already hold the position that determinism is true). Stop being soooooo arrogant (and sarcastic). Free-willer: Fog off.
Mike Fleming Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 HA HA HA HA HA HA You could not have illustrated my point more. "Determinism" or "Physical processes" or "Stuff happens" or "cause and effect". It's the same dumb non-answer given by the same dumb determinists. You ain't got god so fill the sucking gap with "determinism" and you feel nice and secure. That's actually quite funny because the scientific community is mostly in the determinist camp. The religious community is mostly in the free will camp (it's kind of necessary for the whole heaven and hell thing to make any sense) and most normal people don't really think about it much or at all, but if you were to ask them if they think there was free will then they would mostly answer yes. If you replace determinism for atheism and free will for god, this was the exact situation before atheism took off a few years ago. There really is a lot of parallels. You could even say the "free will of the gaps", because most free will people would acknowledge that determinism is true for most of the universe but would hold out that it doesn't apply to humans in the same way most religious acknowledge the truth of science but hold out that there is a place for God.
ProfessionalTeabagger Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 That's actually quite funny because the scientific community is mostly in the determinist camp. The religious community is mostly in the free will camp (it's kind of necessary for the whole heaven and hell thing to make any sense) and most normal people don't really think about it much or at all, but if you were to ask them if they think there was free will then they would mostly answer yes. If you replace determinism for atheism and free will for god, this was the exact situation before atheism took off a few years ago. There really is a lot of parallels. You could even say the "free will of the gaps", because most free will people would acknowledge that determinism is true for most of the universe but would hold out that it doesn't apply to humans. They are mostly in the global warming and statist camp too. I believe they were all in the theistic camp when they didn't know the answers. Now they're mostly in the determinist camp because ... They DO know the answers? I'm well aware determinsts would like to characterize themselves as being in the rationalist/atheism category and draw parallels with the new atheism movement. I've heard that quite a few times. If the new atheism movement had happened before the discovery of evolution the same people would declaring that life is an illusion and that these "lifers" believe in magic. It would be the same argument from ignorance and/or fallacy of composition determinists use. You haven't got a fucking clue how conscious choice occurs and are simply making shit up to wash away your insecurity at not knowing. We free-willers here take the logically consistent position, which is "I don't know". Well that was... unhelpful. Bye, thread!
vco Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The reality is we don't control all the variables. The reality is we can decide what to do, and learn from what happens in order to make better choices.Everything is NOT pre-determined. That's a cop-out to not accept any responsibility.
FireShield Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 I'm not here to debate (I'm thinking even making another post is a bad idea) but I just wanted to share a short video on the topic... PURELY for the sake of anyone who is interested. If you don't want to watch it, don't. If you have objections to what is said, bring it up to the guy who made the video, not to me. I have no wish to re-engange on the forum, I just thought this might be of interest to some of you.
P. Mason Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 A 100% deterministic universe is self refuting by the definition of determinism. You can only declare a subset to be deterministic.
labmath2 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 I just realized science is based on the idea that everything we seek to understand must operate in a consistent and predetermined manner, in essence determinism. In that case, it would appear any scientific study of humans would also have to assume determinism otherwise they cannot hope to get any consistent characteristic of human behavior.
P. Mason Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Determinist: Hey free-willer, don't be so arrogant (even though you have no control over your actions because you have no free will and there was absolutely no possibility of you behaving otherwise and every action is utterly pre-determined and there actually IS no self, only the mindless playing out of unconscious material forces). Hey free-willer (who I'll just accuse of believing in magic, despite the fact you've repeatedly stated you do not and have stated you don't know how human choice works), don't be so arrogant. Don't you know there is a "causal chain" and you see this causal chain goes back and back and all your choices have nothing to do with you. Now you should choose not to be so arrogant. You should be more like determinists who humbly make the positive claim that free will is an illusion and all choice is completely pre-determined; Unlike the arrogant free-will loons who claim to not know. Don't you know that determinism is one of philosophy's most basic concerns? (even though determinists already hold the position that determinism is true). Stop being soooooo arrogant (and sarcastic). Free-willer: Fog off. The definition of determinism refutes a fully deterministic universe. You can only discuss a subset. Even relativity understands this.If determinism is defined as no event can occur without a previous event or event and that all event occur in a logical manner that would mean there can be no spontaneous or random events. 1. This means the universe cannot have a beginning. There can be no first event since all events must be caused by events. If events are Dominoes falling or billard balls interacting then there can be no forst domino or first billard ball. 2. If the universe is an infinite chain of events then it cannot derive from determinism since an infinite object has no beginning. It merely exists. Again something cannot merely exist without causality under determinism. Infinite objects defy determinism. No series of events brought about an infinite object. If you'd like to argue that future events cause past events then you're just arguing an infinite circle which cannot exist in determinism. An infinite ring of falling dominoes simply cannot keep falling.Now this does not prove free will is not determinism but it does disprove the claim free will must be determinism cause all is determinism when clearly the universe itself cannot arise under determinism.
Mike Fleming Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 It's true that determinism and free will is not a true dichotomy. And what the final truth is about determinism regarding possible first causes or infinite causes or quantum indeterminancy or whatever is unknown. But what we do know informs our opinion about our own nature and leaves no room for the concept of free will.
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