mshidden Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 The Small print “Oh, and btw this community is closed to outsiders and new ideas” I know this not just by what is said but what is done. The message I am getting is, “We have are fearless leader Stefan to do all are thinking for us. All we do, it talk about how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is for not listening to him. Oh if you don’t agree with him, then you must not understand what he said. Here read the Bible, .. oh I am sorry I mean UPB. There's a difference between having information and having knowledge, and there's even a difference in terms of being able to apply it. Sorry regurgitating information, is not going to work, everyone has to do their own homework. Maybe in art history you can get buy with regurgitating of other peoples ideas, but if you want to learn to program, you got to do the work, or it’s not going to work out so well for you. Do you really want change, or is it more fun to poke fun at people, and turn your noses up at ever knew idea, because it might smell to you like statism. You are Stephan’s representatives, if this is how you treat people that are willing to cough up money for this silliness, than enjoy your footnote in history because you will be the anchor around his ideas. If you do not take seriously my questions, and scoff at me, as an uneducated pedaphilic Moran. Then you deserve the syspool of misfits that this forum will become, if it has not already become that backwater of malcontents. No one is free of biases, and yes that means me. It was once said to me, “If you find me at fault go and make yourself a better person.” The knife cuts both ways and I am more then willing to use it on myself, but are you willing to use it on yourselves You need me far more than I need you, there are other communities, that might actually understand the importance of new ideas, and work with me instead of against me. I have come here to work, and I put my pocket book where my mouth is, and I don’t have it to give. So far all I have seen is intellectual cowardness, when it comes to real application, you duck and cover. No Michael DeMarco I am not hunting unicorn, and the mere fact that you would suggest it, Confirms that I am dealing with an intellectual lightweight, but deffently a coward. Prove me wrong, because I love eating crow. I have a waistline to confirm it. Yes, I am willing to use what ever props I have at my disposal, to get a point across, does that seem familiar?
Wuzzums Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 Ah yes, the "you can either agree with me or have a closed mind" stratagem. Well done.
mshidden Posted April 28, 2014 Author Posted April 28, 2014 what the hell are you talking about? You are fearless. I am trying to beat you in negatives... Bro Ah yes, the "you can either agree with me or have a closed mind" stratagem. Well done. I can take that any way I want too... so thank you. pfft...prove it. It's my perspective I don't have too. Prove to me you care?
Kevin Beal Posted April 28, 2014 Posted April 28, 2014 I consider myself fortunate to have earned your disapproval. Please, spread the word!
dsayers Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I don't care for being collectivized. Almost as much as I don't care for expressing curiosity as to what you're trying to say only to have you avoid clarifying it, while accusing others of avoidance... then collectivizing me. When you speak of others being closed-minded, you are projecting.
cynicist Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The message I am getting is, “We have are fearless leader Stefan to do all are thinking for us. All we do, it talk about how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is for not listening to him. Oh if you don’t agree with him, then you must not understand what he said. Here read the Bible, .. oh I am sorry I mean UPB. This is exactly the sentiment expressed by GreekRedemption in this thread. (basically the idea that this community is only open to Stefan's ideas) It sounds almost like "all ideas should be considered equal". The fact is that there is truth and falsehood, and everything else is opinion or invalid. So if I see something that is opposed to UPB, then either there is a flaw in Stephan's reasoning or the argument being put forth is flawed. According to the standard of truth one of those ideas is valuable and the other isn't. (or could be improved upon) What I see here, and I might be wrong, but it seems like people are taking it personally that their ideas are being criticized, or compared to Stefans and found lacking. So rather than work on the errors in their own arguments or point out where Stefan has gone wrong, people react by saying the community is closed-minded. I like disagreements, conflict is necessary to figure these things out, but I don't quite get what you hoped to achieve with this thread. If you think that people are just regurgitating information, then it should be really easy to argue against them, since they don't understand what they are saying. If not, then maybe the issue is on your side. (I'm just asking that you consider it)
mshidden Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 This is exactly the sentiment expressed by GreekRedemption/Zmorris in this thread. (basically the idea that this community is only open to Stefan's ideas) It sounds almost like "all ideas should be considered equal". The fact is that there is truth and falsehood, and everything else is opinion or invalid. So if I see something that is opposed to UPB, then either there is a flaw in Stephan's reasoning or the argument being put forth is flawed. According to the standard of truth one of those ideas is valuable and the other isn't. (or could be improved upon) What I see here, and I might be wrong, but it seems like people are taking it personally that their ideas are being criticized, or compared to Stefans and found lacking. So rather than work on the errors in their own arguments or point out where Stefan has gone wrong, people react by saying the community is closed-minded. Cynicist I give you credit, for trying to think about what Zmorris and I are saying, I did read his post as well, and was hmm, this is not just me, we are both picking up on the same thing. what you do with that information is up to you. Thanks for trying.
Stephen C Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 <<explores the way/s in which I am and might be closed minded and why>>
MysterionMuffles Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 please cancel your subscription to this site. I don't like the idea of having it financially supported by irrationals.
LovePrevails Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Please give examples of threads in which you think people who introduce new ideas are treated unfairly and explain why
Shea Roberts Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I had the same apprehensions when I first started getting into FDR. I liked hearing what Stefan had to say on the Rogan podcast, and did more research and listen to a few FDR podcasts. As with anything of interest, and especially a personality like Stefan, I did a google search of "stefan molyneux criticisms" and read what was out there. However, while there may be some who follow him at every word, I have found that Stefan encourages people to disagree with him or to try and find errors in his logic. He says do not take him at face value. Think for yourself and evaluate the arguments. This doesn't sound like a man who wants to gain blind followers. People agree with his ideas because they admire the way he reasoned them out. The amount of time and effort put into FDR is quite astounding, and definitely speaks of a person who takes themselves very seriously. I'm weary of any charismatic persona, especially one that deals in the realm of morality and ethics. But put the ideas to the test, and use your own reason and judgement. Open discussion is good and while Stefan does have a legion of fans, they are fans for good reason. I am curious as to what other topics are introduced and not treated fairly.
lee1138 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Sounds like a Progressive. This is exactly the set of arguments they use. First, they put everyone one in a box, then claim complete knowledge of everyone in the box then, he says 'Stephan is our leader and does our thinking for us', yet dare disagree with a progressive and they will simply parrot back everything they've been taught to say by their leaders who think for them. Frankly, I like Stephan because he has put much more simply ideas and concepts that I have already felt were part of me. I listen to other anarcho-capitalists as well as Stephan. Frankly, Mshidden, I am not closed to new ideas. I'm just closed to stupid ideas... or ideas that are in contrast to what I believe is the truth and which promote maximum liberty. Nice first post (that I've seen anyway)... not one real question about who we are and what we believe.. No attempt to really understand, you assume understanding first, then open your mouth... there's a saying about such people...ah, nevermind, you won't care.
AustinJames Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 You have ignored many valid criticisms. I will not be responding to any more posts from you until these are addressed, and I recommend others do the same to save themselves time. I shudder to think what behavior you are justifying with your moral relativism. Nonetheless, it's amusing to see attempts at debunking UPB inevitably relying upon UPB; I'm glad that you have brought examples of this to the forum. It may help people understand UPB. Also, you may be perceived in a better light if you gave everyone the courtesy of checking your spelling and grammar before you post.
tasmlab Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 There is definitely a homogeny on this board, but I think it is a good thing. It lets people debate details in the same framework. I also post on a fan forum for the New England Patriots football team and everyone who posts there all tend to like football and the Patriots. It works out pretty well.
J. D. Stembal Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The Small print “Oh, and btw this community is closed to outsiders and new ideas” I know this not just by what is said but what is done. The message I am getting is, “We have are fearless leader Stefan to do all are thinking for us. All we do, it talk about how smart he is and how stupid everyone else is for not listening to him. Oh if you don’t agree with him, then you must not understand what he said. Here read the Bible, .. oh I am sorry I mean UPB. There's a difference between having information and having knowledge, and there's even a difference in terms of being able to apply it. Sorry regurgitating information, is not going to work, everyone has to do their own homework. Maybe in art history you can get buy with regurgitating of other peoples ideas, but if you want to learn to program, you got to do the work, or it’s not going to work out so well for you. Do you really want change, or is it more fun to poke fun at people, and turn your noses up at ever knew idea, because it might smell to you like statism. You are Stephan’s representatives, if this is how you treat people that are willing to cough up money for this silliness, than enjoy your footnote in history because you will be the anchor around his ideas. If you do not take seriously my questions, and scoff at me, as an uneducated pedaphilic Moran. Then you deserve the syspool of misfits that this forum will become, if it has not already become that backwater of malcontents. No one is free of biases, and yes that means me. It was once said to me, “If you find me at fault go and make yourself a better person.” The knife cuts both ways and I am more then willing to use it on myself, but are you willing to use it on yourselves You need me far more than I need you, there are other communities, that might actually understand the importance of new ideas, and work with me instead of against me. I have come here to work, and I put my pocket book where my mouth is, and I don’t have it to give. So far all I have seen is intellectual cowardness, when it comes to real application, you duck and cover. No Michael DeMarco I am not hunting unicorn, and the mere fact that you would suggest it, Confirms that I am dealing with an intellectual lightweight, but deffently a coward. Prove me wrong, because I love eating crow. I have a waistline to confirm it. Yes, I am willing to use what ever props I have at my disposal, to get a point across, does that seem familiar? This is the second contentless collective community ad hominem appeal that I've read in the last few days. At least, it was put forth by a backer so it may deserve another reply. (Addressing the OP) Indeed, if there are other communities out there for sharing new ideas, by all means, link to these founts of free speech and enlighten us. Mayhaps, if we find the alternative discussion compelling enough, we'll come to a similar conclusion as you. If the FDR community is not a positive work environment for you, there is no shame in searching elsewhere. I'm new to the messageboard, so I haven't reached any definite conclusion yet, but I will add that recently seeing two vague appeals to no one in particular that the collective community is being too close-minded to have a discussion tells me that I don't wish to continue reading the General subforum. Here is a piece of advice. It is not healthy to take the discussion too personally. Just because someone contradicts an idea, it should not be contrued as harrassment. Don't get so emotionally attached to the viewpoint, but also don't forget to argue your perspective reasonably - with passion. To reuse your analogy with the knife cutting both ways, you are the one that is reluctant to get your hands bloody. Let's have a real discussion about ideas. I've got the knife of reason within reach so tell us all about them!
Carl Green Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Prove me wrong, because I love eating crow. I have a waistline to confirm it. - My apologies, mshidden. I've removed the content -
mshidden Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 I don't think your waistline is from eating crow. Flighted birds don't tend to be too fatty. (full disclosure, I'm not a nutritionist or biologist so I could be wrong) Thank you for that I love it when people read what I wrote and then use it to make fun of me.
Carl Green Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I was afraid my statement might make you think I was trying to make fun of you. Sorry about that. I truly wasn't trying to make anyone laugh at you. More so with you, as you were the originator of jokes about your waistline.
BlackHeron Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 You sound really upset and hurt and I'm sorry to say that I'm having a hard time understanding what it was that specifically upset you as the initial post mostly deals in generalities and doesn't delve into very many specifics. It seems to be all attack in all directions, drawing fire from the masses so to speak. Grasping and taking on the self-ownership self-ruling scepter of philosophy and stepping out into a world of solid rights and wrongs can sometimes be very hard. The complex mecosystem inside our brains rebels and shies away from some ideas that cause us to dredge up things that make us very uncomfortable thinking about, or accepting. I know I had a few rough spots when I first started listening to Stefan and it took a while for me to do some real thinking and gain some self-knowledge. A lot of my objections to non-violent parenting and UPB were actually my parents talking inside/through me. They really didn't like to hear what Stefan was saying and they were screaming inside my head with objection after objection to beat these ideas back. You are not going to get a lot of folks here who are going to argue for the side of statism and the violence and coercion it represents. There is not much sympathy for the devil here, or for people who hit and even mutilate defenseless children. As bad as the state is it is just an external manifestation of the dysfunctional families that raise traumatized children. The state is just a shadow cast on the wall by traumatized adults trying to recapture, re-live, and process that trauma they experienced as they grew up. I think it would be better to step back and take a few breaths rather than purposefully flounce and draw the ire of everyone by attacking us all en mass. I don't think it really serves a good purpose other than to relive some sort of unprocessed pile-on behavior you may have been subjected to as a younger person. Perhaps instead of over-engaging it might be better to just read and not let yourself get drawn into arguments and unproductive flame wars. Perhaps find someone to talk to about your difference of opinions in a smaller group structure or one-on-one. Maybe even try and call into the show and talk to Stefan himself. They will move you to the front of the queue if you really have serious disagreements to iron out. It makes a good show too. I don't like to see someone figuratively pour gas on themselves and attempt a forum self-immolation here. It makes me sad to read your initial post. I'm sorry you are so upset and seem to feel you are not being heard and/or belittled by an overwhelming mass of people who disagree with you. That isn't a fun place to be. I wouldn't want to pull that kind of attention and aggravation onto myself, and I don't think you really want to do that either. I would hope there are better ways to disagree than this.
Kevin Beal Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Just pointing out the very diverse kinds of responses this thread has gotten. Very specific people had very specific criticisms (or attacks) of the mshidden. The "community" didn't attack this fella. But, this fella did attack the community. I like this community, and one of the reasons is because of how diverse it is. I don't take kindly to folk who make accusations of the community.
mshidden Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 <<explores the way/s in which I am and might be closed minded and why>> "I would rather know the truth and be loathed, and spell bad, then be ignorant and admired." Mark Hidden
Stephen C Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 "I would rather know the truth and be loathed, and spell bad, then be ignorant and admired." Mark Hidden I would rather know the truth and be admired, and spell pretty well, than be ignorant and loathed, if possible. Also, I would like a fuji apple with natural peanut butter, it's one of my favorite combinations. Thank you for donating, Mark.
mshidden Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 I would rather know the truth and be admired, and spell pretty well, than be ignorant and loathed, if possible. Also, I would like a fuji apple with natural peanut butter, it's one of my favorite combinations. Thank you for donating, Mark. Ok but were are your self quotes it's so much cooler when you do it that way. Your Welcome:
Stephen C Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Ok but were are your self quotes it's so much cooler when you do it that way. Your Welcome: "I normally can't afford quotation marks these days because of inflation. I can make an exception for you, because you're handsome." - Stephen C
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