Aaron727 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 );font-family:Verdana, tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:12px][/color] Today Adam uploaded a video talking about something that I have been saying for years. I was delighted to see this topic being covered. It always really irked me that people are so hypocritical about drugs. You have People who drink 2 or 3 cups of coffee a day and then they turn there nose up at other drug users. They think there is nothing wrong with their own addiction and claim others are unhealthy like wtf. Cocaine is a much better solution for occasional short term energy boosts. The come down on small amounts of coke is much better than with coffee and the energy boost is much greater. I just thought I would share this seeing as its not widely known. Hopefully the caffeine addicts will think twice about picking on other people who use drugs.
Think Free Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 By all means, get off caffeine, but don't get on coke.
Benjammin Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Why is it that caffeine users should think twice before saying that drug use is bad? Do you think caffeine allows you to disassociate from reality in the way other drugs do? Not saying I disagree just looking to understand your reason behind this post. I watched this a few days ago as I am subscribed to AVTM.
Wesley Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Why is it that caffeine users should think twice before saying that drug use is bad? Do you think caffeine allows you to disassociate from reality in the way other drugs do? Not saying I disagree just looking to understand your reason behind this post. I watched this a few days ago as I am subscribed to AVTM. I think you are missing some of the point. Coca-Cola used to have small amounts of cocaine in it and could be bought at the local drug store by children. At some point it was banned and caffiene was chosen as a replacement because it causes nearly identical reactions of being an upper and addictive tendencies that cocaine does. It could easily have been done in reverse where caffiene was originally in Cafi-Cola and was banned and so they replaced it with cocaine. I am not sure if you have ever seen someone snort caffiene or take a concentrated caffiene pill meant to get someone high, but the effects are very similar to someone having done cocaine. Also, my mother was very much a Diet Coke addict and has several time tried to quit by going to caffiene free Diet Coke. She finally was able to do it after several years and many, many attempts at trying. Thus, I would not be able to necessarily compare caffiene to all other drugs in the same way that it would be hard to compare someone on PCP to someone smoking weed or someone on alcohol to someone doing cocaine. However, the comparison between caffiene and cocaine is very, very strong and it was intentionally chosen as a legal replacement because of the banning of something it was similar to.
cobra2411 Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 If I'm not mistaken, cocaine was banned over fear that slaves chewing coca leaves would rise up and overthrow their masters. The first drug law in this country was against smoking opium - something only the heathen Chinese did. That was in California and when it failed, a year later it became the first federal drug law. Tobacco is more addictive than cocaine, yet is legal because of the support of the tobacco lobbyists. I wonder if there are any drug laws actually based on health and safety.
Think Free Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 I am not sure if you have ever seen someone snort caffiene or take a concentrated caffiene pill meant to get someone high, but the effects are very similar to someone having done cocaine. Why do people bother with cocaine, then? Wouldn't be easier to get some concentrated kind of caffeine or just drink a lot of coffee?
Wesley Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Why do people bother with cocaine, then? Wouldn't be easier to get some concentrated kind of caffeine or just drink a lot of coffee? Well for one, getting the required dose is a bit of a difficulty and often it is easier to get it with cocaine. Second, why do people make moonshine even though alcohol is readily available? Third, I am sure there are some differneces (I do not know as I have never done cocaine and do caffiene in very small doses approximately once a month) and that very similar doesn't necessarily mean identical.
Benjammin Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Well for one, getting the required dose is a bit of a difficulty and often it is easier to get it with cocaine.Second, why do people make moonshine even though alcohol is readily available?Third, I am sure there are some differneces (I do not know as I have never done cocaine and do caffiene in very small doses approximately once a month) and that very similar doesn't necessarily mean identical.They make moonshine to avoid the tax. Also more potent product.
Wesley Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 They make moonshine to avoid the tax. Also more potent product. That is my point, thanks.
cobra2411 Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Why do people bother with cocaine, then? Wouldn't be easier to get some concentrated kind of caffeine or just drink a lot of coffee? Why is it anyone's business what I chose consume?
Aaron727 Posted May 1, 2014 Author Posted May 1, 2014 Why is it that caffeine users should think twice before saying that drug use is bad? Do you think caffeine allows you to disassociate from reality in the way other drugs do? Not saying I disagree just looking to understand your reason behind this post. I watched this a few days ago as I am subscribed to AVTM. What I am saying is the high from coke and coffee is very similar. Caffeine users are in denial that they are drug addicts just like coke users. they shouldn't speak out on Coke use until they confront their own addiction. Coke Does not disassociate you from reality like caffeine and coke is more effective.
Benjammin Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 What I am saying is the high from coke and coffee is very similar. I think you got ripped off then. :-) I also have no problem not using either drug. I do drink coffee as a choice not as a need. I know you have no reason to believe me but that is the case. http://hackaday.com/2012/01/01/making-pure-caffeine-at-home/ This was interesting. No wonder you can find caffeine concentrated.
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Also, my mother was very much a Diet Coke addict and has several time tried to quit by going to caffiene free Diet Coke. She finally was able to do it after several years and many, many attempts at trying. Slightly beside the point of the thread, but just wanted to point out that from what I understand, aspartame (the fake sugar in Diet Coke) is also very addictive (not to mention toxic). Might be a double whammy with the caffeine.
Sven--starFury_flames-- Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 The challenge I've always had talking to people about drugs (and I'll admit that I have, in my past, done a lot of them) is that they tend to just throw them all in one group and that drugs are bad, mmkay!.... There's no awareness that there's a continuum there in terms of potentcy, in people's intentions when using them, potential harmful effects, degree of dissociation from reality, potentials for addictition. etc. The casual user that smokes the occasional joint and enjoys a psychedelic experience now and then is no different from the kinds of rock-bottom utterly dependent junkies you can read about in Gabor Maté's excellent book 'In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts'.
Aaron727 Posted May 2, 2014 Author Posted May 2, 2014 I think you got ripped off then. :-) I also have no problem not using either drug. I do drink coffee as a choice not as a need. I know you have no reason to believe me but that is the case. http://hackaday.com/2012/01/01/making-pure-caffeine-at-home/ This was interesting. No wonder you can find caffeine concentrated. The video and my post is talking about people who use caffeine everyday or multiply times a day. If that's not you then what i'm saying does not apply. Low doses of coke are very similar to caffeine. I'm not saying people should snort grams of coke a day. If you remember coca cola had mere milligrams of cocaine in it.Caffeine addicts who come down on occasional coke use is what irks me(I have spoken to tons). I don't think anyone should use caffeine or cocaine everyday but If you are going to use drugs to boost energy cocaine is an option that is in many cases more effective then caffeine. There is a lot of propaganda bout illegal drugs and i'm just trying to point it out.
Think Free Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I admit, I don't get this discussion. It seems like the arguments being made for cocaine are consequentialist. There's one reason non-dangerous-to-others cocaine use should be legal and it has nothing to do with how much cocaine is like caffeine: appropriate cocaine use should be legal because it doesn't hurt anyone else. Of course, that doesn't mean people actually should use cocaine, and what's bothering me here is that it seems like some very poor arguments are being used to promote cocaine use: 1. The fact that people use caffeine doesn't recommend cocaine use. 2. The fact that caffeine can hurt your health does not recommend cocaine use. 3. The fact that people can be chemically or psychologically addicted to caffeine or caffeine-based-products does not recommend cocaine use. 4. The fact that if you squint and turn your head sideways cocaine looks kind of like caffeine does not recommend cocaine use. If you're going to seriously argue that cocaine use is a non-self-destructive behavior, you need to present all the facts about the effects and complications of cocaine, not make bad analogies to caffeine.
Wesley Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I admit, I don't get this discussion. It seems like the arguments being made for cocaine are consequentialist. There's one reason non-dangerous-to-others cocaine use should be legal and it has nothing to do with how much cocaine is like caffeine: appropriate cocaine use should be legal because it doesn't hurt anyone else. Of course, that doesn't mean people actually should use cocaine, and what's bothering me here is that it seems like some very poor arguments are being used to promote cocaine use: 1. The fact that people use caffeine doesn't recommend cocaine use. 2. The fact that caffeine can hurt your health does not recommend cocaine use. 3. The fact that people can be chemically or psychologically addicted to caffeine or caffeine-based-products does not recommend cocaine use. 4. The fact that if you squint and turn your head sideways cocaine looks kind of like caffeine does not recommend cocaine use. If you're going to seriously argue that cocaine use is a non-self-destructive behavior, you need to present all the facts about the effects and complications of cocaine, not make bad analogies to caffeine. However, most of the people who are against people using cocain have no rational or empirical reason for doing it, just the knowledge that it is bad. Analogizing it to something they are familiar with and have seen in small use situations, party situations, and addictive or unhealthy situations can be very valuable to these people as far as making it not seem like a far-off and evil thing but something that they actually need to reason through and look at some data in order to decide if it is good or bad. I am interested Think Free, what is your relationship with illegal and/or legal drugs? How have they impacted your life?
Think Free Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 However, most of the people who are against people using cocain have no rational or empirical reason for doing it, just the knowledge that it is bad. Analogizing it to something they are familiar with and have seen in small use situations, party situations, and addictive or unhealthy situations can be very valuable to these people as far as making it not seem like a far-off and evil thing but something that they actually need to reason through and look at some data in order to decide if it is good or bad. I am interested Think Free, what is your relationship with illegal and/or legal drugs? How have they impacted your life? Nobody in my close family uses legal or illegal drugs with the exception that I, my wife, and my father drink a lot of coffee and a few others drink it occasionally. I have tried alcohol and tobacco but don't regularly purchase them because alcohol is mind-altering and tobacco is extremely addictive and somewhat unhealthy. I have a very few friends who got into the use of legal drugs (like tobacco and alcohol) and some illegal drugs. None of them are leading complete disasters of lives, but they're also all in the bottom 50% in terms successful lives, among my friends, if I were to try and estimate such a thing. All of them claim to have stopped doing drugs other than alcohol and tobacco. I have a number of more distant relatives who use alcohol and a few of them completely destroyed their lives (and other's lives) with their alcohol use. I have a few friend who are children of alcoholics. As you can see, my family culture is one that is fairly skeptical of drug use--even caffeine. When invited out for coffee, my grandfather used to say, "I don't do drugs." So that's where I'm coming from.
DannyB Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Why is it that caffeine users should think twice before saying that drug use is bad? Do you think caffeine allows you to disassociate from reality in the way other drugs do? Not saying I disagree just looking to understand your reason behind this post. I watched this a few days ago as I am subscribed to AVTM. I think he is pointing out the hypocrisy of people who say they are not drug users when they consume caffeine daily. I would add the same for people who drink alcohol /smoke nicotine.
Wesley Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I also know of people who pop over the counter pain pills like they are candy for mild pains from working out or for minro headaches or want antibiotics that kill all of the good bacteria in their body for things that aren't even bacterial infections.
Aaron727 Posted May 2, 2014 Author Posted May 2, 2014 I admit, I don't get this discussion. It seems like the arguments being made for cocaine are consequentialist. There's one reason non-dangerous-to-others cocaine use should be legal and it has nothing to do with how much cocaine is like caffeine: appropriate cocaine use should be legal because it doesn't hurt anyone else. Of course, that doesn't mean people actually should use cocaine, and what's bothering me here is that it seems like some very poor arguments are being used to promote cocaine use: 1. The fact that people use caffeine doesn't recommend cocaine use. 2. The fact that caffeine can hurt your health does not recommend cocaine use. 3. The fact that people can be chemically or psychologically addicted to caffeine or caffeine-based-products does not recommend cocaine use. 4. The fact that if you squint and turn your head sideways cocaine looks kind of like caffeine does not recommend cocaine use. If you're going to seriously argue that cocaine use is a non-self-destructive behavior, you need to present all the facts about the effects and complications of cocaine, not make bad analogies to caffeine. It seems like you haven't even read any of my posts. I'm not recommending cocaine use to non drug users. I am saying if your already a drug addict and use caffeine there are alternatives that in many cases are more effective, Daily cocaine use is not healthy. Daily caffeine use is not healthy. I have not claimed cocaine use is a non self-destructive behavior and I have not claimed anything else in your post. The point of the post in to point out the hypocrisy of caffeine addicts and to make the claim that cocaine is a better drug for occasional energy boosts(better not meaning non-self destructive). Coke provides more energy and you don't get the same afternoon crash with small doses. Cocaine is demonized as the destroyer of lives when in reality it can be used very safely but same as with anything it can be abused as well. I'm not claiming these are the reasons cocaine should be legal. I'm trying to point out some stuff that is not widely known or accepted.
Sven--starFury_flames-- Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 Then there's the so-called nootropics ("smart drugs"). Modafinil would be an example of a state-approved stimulant, used by airline pilots and college students alike.... I would not recommend cocoaine to anyone unless they have near-inhuman levels of self-control, it's in the nature of drugs that you need ever-increasing doses to achieve the same effect. This would soon become very expensive especially considering they're illicit and the price is ridiculously inflated. If someone really needs a lot of energy might I suggest improving their diet, getting enough sleep and having some sort of physical exercise regime like a daily yoga practice. There's so much we can do to increase our energy and mental clarity that doesn't involve "better living through chemistry". Yerba Maté is the south american version of coffee and oh boy does it ever have a kick !.... Then of course you can grow your own coca plants and chew the leaves (mixed with a bit of bi-carb soda). Cocaine is the super concentrated form refined from coca leaves. Chewing the leaves is still effective but with a far diminished toxic-burden on the body.
Pepin Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 SWIM has done cocaine a few times and was rather disappointed with the effects to price ratio. They said the effects were far more mild than anticipated.
Aaron727 Posted May 3, 2014 Author Posted May 3, 2014 I'm not sure If i'm doing a really bad job explaining myself or people are just ignoring what I'm writing. When I say addicts i'm talking about people who are not interested in stopping their drug use. I don't think using any drugs in everyday life is a healthy choice. I just want to say thanks to Wesley for his input on the topic. Your insight is appreciated. I hope at least a few people have seen this topic from another perspective.
lionilt Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I know that it is hypocrisy to say that caffeine is not a similar drug to cocaine, in that they are both mind altering substances. Every drug affects each user differently, and so it is a personal case to determine whether use of a particular chemical or plant negatively impacts areas of a person's life. Recognition of changes from a social group is important in that regard. There are some minority of people who can use cocaine responsibly, and enhance their lives with it. Fact. Some people destroy their lives with substances that are far less addictive than cocaine. Aaron727, you make sense, thank you for putting that forward.
J-William Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Well for one, getting the required dose is a bit of a difficulty and often it is easier to get it with cocaine. Second, why do people make moonshine even though alcohol is readily available? Third, I am sure there are some differneces (I do not know as I have never done cocaine and do caffiene in very small doses approximately once a month) and that very similar doesn't necessarily mean identical. nodoz is readily available and contains 200mg of caffeine. So that's probably not a reason to prefer cocaine... also... interesting story, I had a friend in highschool who would crush caffeine pills and snort them like cocaine... he only did that because there is some similarity to cocaine.
James Dean Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 I never understood exactly how drugs 'dissociate you from reality.' I have experience as a moderate to frequent cannabis user and an infrequent user of psychedelics and hallucinogens like LSD or Psilocybin, yet I fail to see in what way I am no longer in contact with reality while under the influence of those drugs. Even the more hallucinogenic like LSD. If I'm sitting there, having a nice trip, the reality is that the chemical Lysergic Acid Diethyl-amide is interacting with receptors in my brain causing the semblance of sensory input. My state of mind is never, and has never been, "holy crap, the walls are melting." it's always "Holy crap, it looks like the walls are melting," which is true! It does look like that. This is just my experience using these drugs. It's the same with dreams, yes, the things that you dream are not objective and consistent, they do not 'exist' in that way, but you are still in reality, you are still dreaming in a bed in the physical world. It seems a little relativistic to say that just because your perceptions change based on internal stimuli, your fundamental relation to reality changes or ceases to exist. The only way to 'dissociate' from reality is to die, in my oh so humble opinion.
Think Free Posted May 12, 2014 Posted May 12, 2014 It seems like you haven't even read any of my posts. I'm not recommending cocaine use to non drug users. I am saying if your already a drug addict and use caffeine there are alternatives that in many cases are more effective, Daily cocaine use is not healthy. Daily caffeine use is not healthy. I have not claimed cocaine use is a non self-destructive behavior and I have not claimed anything else in your post. The point of the post in to point out the hypocrisy of caffeine addicts and to make the claim that cocaine is a better drug for occasional energy boosts(better not meaning non-self destructive). Coke provides more energy and you don't get the same afternoon crash with small doses. Cocaine is demonized as the destroyer of lives when in reality it can be used very safely but same as with anything it can be abused as well. I'm not claiming these are the reasons cocaine should be legal. I'm trying to point out some stuff that is not widely known or accepted. I read your posts, but my post wasn't a response to your posts specifically as much as the video and the discussion in general. However, it is true that I don't think the video or your posts actually demonstrate the hypocrisy of caffeine users that condemn cocaine use, since they fail to fully compare the two drugs and instead make a superficial and largely irrelevant comparison. endostate's graph, in contrast is much more useful, since it compares two of the most important factors of a drug: dependency potential and ratio of active to lethal dosages. By those important metrics, you see that caffeine is, in fact, safer than cocaine in important ways. That doesn't prove that you should use caffeine or that you shouldn't use cocaine, but it does show that cocaine and caffeine are different in important ways, and that therefore one can approve of caffeine use and condemn cocaine use without necessarily being a hypocrite.
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