In defense of pickup artists

[batman1337]

Let me preface this by saying you [the reader] have no idea what "pickup is".  You have never been to a seminar.  You have never read an ebook.  You have never scene a youtube video of a pickup artist.  If your reading this and all that is going though your head is "yeah but your just trying to get laid", theres a box with an 'x' in the corner of your screen.  Your being sexist.  Stop being a shitlord.  For gods sake, were discussing 'anarchy'.  What if every reply I had about anarchy was "thats great but wheres your moltov cocktail" or "you live in a fantasy, we need laws", or this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzFCDqKE4yA] is anarchy.  You'd call me a bigot.  If this is your attitude please check the red box in the cornor of your browser.

 

Great you've made it this far.  You have an open mind.  Congratulations.  

 

You probably think this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t62cnVDC0I] is pick up.  Ross Jefferies is a conartist who can no longer pass a shitty product on to customers and is now trying the "I'm protecting women angle".  Pickup is about self improvement.  Pickup is a social skill that men learn.  Pickup is about improving yourself so your a more attractive man to women.  -yeah but your just trying to get laid-  Kindly suppress your shitlord urges.  We have an open mind remember?  

 

Pickup is a lifestyle change.  Who goes to pickup seminars and buys ebooks and dvds?  Nerds that play WOW all day and never learned social skills.  Wall street millionaires who's only 2nd date is with golddiggers.  Average men who broke up or got divorced and cant for the life of them get past friendship with women.  -yeah but pickups for players-  I told you to close your browser kind sir.

 

Let me introduce you to David Deangelo (Eben Pagan) [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fwJ9JcyAd4&list=PL6EE591AAD07988FA].  Have you ever been told by a woman, she just wants to be friends, and then subsequently act cold.  Does this video make since to you or not?  When you act needy, you scare away women.  Its like this [http://f0.pepst.com/c/082C76/955211/ssc3/home/021/alexsander2/britney_spears_2.jpg_480_480_0_64000_0_1_0.jpg] turning into this [http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/britneyumbrellax17_450x500.jpg] for women.  When you act needy you become very unattractive to women. 

 

David D. is very big on cocky comedy and inner game.  He recommends spicing up normal conversation in a confident cocky manner.  You might be on a date with a woman and shes says "my favorite color is green" now if you followed the advice to be yourself, you would reply "thats nice, I like green too, we have so much in common" or "that's nice I like black".  Boring.  No second date for you.  What David D. says is this is a great opportunity to say something cocky and funny like "my favorite color is green, whats yours" "hmmm my favorite color is black, I don't know if this relationship is going to work out, we're just to different".   - See theres your shady line.  I knew you had a line!-  Ugh I just have to deal with you dont I.

 

Let me digress for a second back to Ross Jeffries [http://www.speedseduction.net/].  See how is product is 40% off.  Compare that to David D. [http://www.doubleyourdating.com/catalog/index.html?spids=ZZZVHI,314] who sells products at full price, with a 100% money back guarantee.  Ross Jeffries pushes lines.  He trys to sell stupid shit like "it was raining the other day doens't the rain just make you *wet*" as if that turns on women.  Ross J. tries to sell a product about sexualizing your language and tone.  No way in hell stupid shit like that works.  Ross Jeffries is to pickup artists as russians with moltov cocktails are to anarchists.  

 

Back to David D.  Inner game.  Every self improvement/pickup program is going to be 80-90% inner game.  You know that feeling when you think about approaching a girl and butterflys tangle your stomach, and you talk yourself out of it.  Theres no magic line for that.  Any program that teaches a line to overcome that is full of shit.  Firstly inner game is about improving your life.  Like getting away from your xbox and finding a hobby both men and women enjoy, like dodgeball.  Inner game is about having the confidence to just walk up to any one you want and say "hi im batman".  How does one go from xbox and porn to social circle and girlfriend?  David D. suggests things like NLP (neuro linguistic programming). He suggests to overcome that shyness you feel, imagine that feeling of your stomach turning in absolute fear, and imagine approaching that woman and realizing that the worst that could happen is a drink thrown in your face.  Now imagine the scenario backwards with goofy laughing.  Go back and forth at double speed with goofy laughing in an higher octave.  Then you go out to starbucks and say hi to the barista, ask he how her day was, try something you wouldnt normally do, like ask her what her favorite drink is.  Maybe even ask her if on her break you could buy it for her.  -but but this is alot of work just to get laid, I want my money back-  good the shitlord has left the building.

 

David D. is great at Inner game, but Real Social Dynamics (RSD) [http://www.realsocialdynamics.com/] focuses a bit more on outer game (body language, clothing, demeaner, vocal projection, the execution of inner game).  RSD is 50/50 inner outer where David D. is 90% inner/10% outer.  Here is Tyler Durden (Owen Cook) talking about confidence [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L68oc3C42Fg], [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElbuiVwtXYc].  Does Tyler really come across as some slezeball with a few lines to get laid?  

 

Pickup is just a social skill.  Theres nothing wrong with learning social skills.  Your not trying to get laid anymore than when you take a business seminar your trying to rip people off.  When men enhance their attractiveness is that any different then when women put on makeup?  I dont see anyone calling women prostitutes for putting on eyeliner.  So why are you just assuming men are trying to get laid by learning pickup?  Do you also take fried chicken and watermelons to your friendly neighborhood black person?  

 

-but I clicked a link on youtube and watched Tyler teach a line-.  Yes RSD teaches newbies stock lines.  Its a crutch because theres some men in this world who spent highschool playing WOW and don't know how to talk to women!  Or he got married at 18 and divorced at 26, and also never learned how to interact with anyone but his exwife.  

 

-but you just attract low quality women-. This is just blatant sexism.  Remember this example: "my favorite color is green, whats yours" "hmmm my favorite color is black, I don't know if this relationship is going to work out, we're just to different".  This is called flirting.  So women that flirt with men are low quality?  Your sexist if you think that.  Men dont flirt with each other.  It is an alien language.  It serves no purpose in male-male interactions.  Flirting is something men have to learn and they might as well learn it formally from someone who knows how to flirt, like a "pickup artist".  

 

-your just manipulating women, enjoy being single-  More sexism.  Go read David Deida's book [http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Superior-Man-Challenges/dp/1591792576].  Men lead.  Women follow.  For a fullfilling life long relationship with a women, a man must play the masculine, leadership role and the woman the female, follower role.  If your "manipulating" women, your not leading because you are constantly gauging your next move off her response to you.  And BTW, I only know of Deida's book because it was recommended further reading from David Deangelo.

 

Thank you for making it this far.  Hopefully you have at least considered that pickup might not be just about getting laid.  

 

Two last comments.  

 

First.  Stef makes the argument that everything would just be honkey dorey if women would just sleep with "nice guys".  ex. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6UVQUjS1T8&feature=youtu.be&t=2h3m50s].  This is inncorrect.  This is like telling men they should sleep with her [http://www.funnyloves.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Funny-Fat-Girl-in-the-World_pictures-images-photos.jpg] because shes so nice and can cook you a good dinner.  It is a mans responsibility to man up and learn how to flirt.  After all, if a women has the option to marry a jerk or a typical "nice guy" and the nice guy is just as attractive as the jerk, shes going to go after the "nice guy" 100% of the time.

 

Second.  Stef, please try to interview Eben Pagan or Owen Cook.  Please give them an open chance to explain themselves.  BTW Owen Cook is a fellow Canadian, and got a masters in philosophy as well.  

[cynicist]

If this was about improving your self-confidence it wouldn't be called pickup. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get laid, just stop pretending it's anything but tips and tricks on seducing damaged or dumb women.

[Wuzzums]

 

Pickup is just a social skill.  Theres nothing wrong with learning social skills.  Your not trying to get laid anymore than when you take a business seminar your trying to rip people off.  When men enhance their attractiveness is that any different then when women put on makeup?  I dont see anyone calling women prostitutes for putting on eyeliner.  So why are you just assuming men are trying to get laid by learning pickup?  Do you also take fried chicken and watermelons to your friendly neighborhood black person? 

So pick-up is just a skill, and the reason of learning a skill is not getting the product of that skill... it's the being able to do the skill itself... hmm.

 

If this is the case then I can only assume you also believe musicians play instruments just for the sake of learning a skill, they couldn't care less about making music or listening to it for that matter. Once they achieved mastery they can just sit back and never play that instrument for the rest of their lives, because they can no longer learn that skill seeing how that skill is learned now.

 

Talking is also a social skill. I'm assuming all this talking you did wasn't to convey any message or idea of some sort. How foolish of me to assume your entire post was not just made for the sake of talking. I apologize.

 

P.S.

What if my black friend just happens to really like watermelons and fried chicken and I wanna do something nice for him? I mean, who doesn't like watermelons and fried chicken? Why does his skin color have to dictate the way I act towards him, specifically when it's against his preferences?

[dazed and confused]

when i think pua the first people that come to mind are mystery and neil strauss. you should just ignore them like you did. fuzzy hats and negs are still a big part of the pickup community.

[RyanT]

If this was about improving your self-confidence it wouldn't be called pickup. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get laid, just stop pretending it's anything but tips and tricks on seducing damaged or dumb women.

 

That's the rub of it,

 

Why not work on self-knowledge?

 

People are spending thousands just learning how to flirt with women,  

imagine if they actually put that money into going to therapy?

[dsayers]

Sorry, batman, but you're (contraction of "you" and "are") being incredibly manipulative in your (possessive) first paragraph. This tells me that whatever follows likely isn't honest and that you lack self-knowledge. I didn't bother reading the rest. I hope this feedback has some value for you.

[batman1337]

If this was about improving your self-confidence it wouldn't be called pickup. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get laid, just stop pretending it's anything but tips and tricks on seducing damaged or dumb women.

So when women put on makeup its just a dirty trick to pick up a guy?  How do you not see how this is sexist.  When go to college for business am I just learning sleazy tricks to steal from people?  Why are you so closed minded and sexist?  Did you even spend 12 minutes of your life watching the videos I posted?  Or did you just come her on your high horse trying to find any excuse to discredit me.  Thank you for telling me you are a closed minded shitlord.  Now I know whos here to learn and whos not.

 

edit: oh and "if this was just about self-confidence it wouldn't be called pickup", yeah and if anarchy was about finding voluntary solutions to societal problems, it wouln't be called "anarchy".  There is no hope for you sir.

Sorry, batman, but you're (contraction of "you" and "are") being incredibly manipulative in your (possessive) first paragraph. This tells me that whatever follows likely isn't honest and that you lack self-knowledge. I didn't bother reading the rest. I hope this feedback has some value for you.

Really?  With all the "donators" in here being such closed minded people, I'm seriously reconsidering my subscription status.  I spent 2 hours putting together links an ideas in a non-threatening mannor.  Trying to engage in a discussion.  But you blow me off because of some bullshit excuse like "grammer".  You are a shitlord as well.  There is no hope for you either sir.

[GYre0ePJhZ]

I agree with dsayers. You are insulting the readers in your first paragraph without even knowing what they think about your argument. Just present your argument and see what people think of it without insults.

 

I didn't read your whole post either because I feel it could only be a waste of time as a result of your first paragraph. I am not even curious what argument you defend pick-up artists with, and I have watched a lot of the pick-up material before (mostly Tyler Durden).

 

I hope you don't present FDR and the ideas herein to others in this manner because that can only hurt our cause. If so, please stop doing that.

[RyanT]

Sorry, batman, but you're (contraction of "you" and "are") being incredibly manipulative in your (possessive) first paragraph. This tells me that whatever follows likely isn't honest and that you lack self-knowledge. I didn't bother reading the rest. I hope this feedback has some value for you.

 

 

Really?  With all the "donators" in here being such closed minded people, I'm seriously reconsidering my subscription status.  I spent 2 hours putting together links an ideas in a non-threatening mannor.  Trying to engage in a discussion.  But you blow me off because of some bullshit excuse like "grammer".  You are a shitlord as well.  There is no hope for you either sir.

 

[fractional slacker]

I too read the first paragraph and didn't feel inspired to go on. Hate to point out the obvious, but if you are trying to defend a positon, not sure it is a good idea to go on the offensive.

[cynicist]

So when women put on makeup its just a dirty trick to pick up a guy?  How do you not see how this is sexist.  When go to college for business am I just learning sleazy tricks to steal from people?  Why are you so closed minded and sexist?  Did you even spend 12 minutes of your life watching the videos I posted?  Or did you just come her on your high horse trying to find any excuse to discredit me.  Thank you for telling me you are a closed minded shitlord.  Now I know whos here to learn and whos not.

 

This is actually hilarious. I never said the tricks were "dirty" or "sleazy", that is your interpretation of what I said. I don't know enough about PUA to claim either. Also, makeup is manipulative, and yes the whole point of using it is to attract men. So how am I sexist again? 

 

Oh right, you just want to throw around terms like 'shitlord' or 'sexist' for anyone who doesn't immediately agree with your position. Remind me, who is the closed-minded one here? 

[dsayers]

Really?  With all the "donators" in here being such closed minded people, I'm seriously reconsidering my subscription status.  I spent 2 hours putting together links an ideas in a non-threatening mannor.  Trying to engage in a discussion.  But you blow me off because of some bullshit excuse like "grammer".  You are a shitlord as well.  There is no hope for you either sir.

 

You know what I've observed? When what you're trying to convince somebody of is the truth, acceptance isn't required. On the other hand, those who are threatening and aggressive are basically doubling down in the face of rational rejection BECAUSE what they're selling isn't the truth. This tells me both that my initial impression was accurate, as well as what the most important aspect of you childhood was. It saddens me to learn this of you, find you here of all places, convinced enough to donate to the cause, yet lack this fundamental step in self-knowledge.

[MrCapitalism]

I don't know if what I write will be considered a defense of Pickup Artistry, but I feel I can see the issue from both sides. This is all MHO of course.I believe I used these techniques and ideas to achieve the last sexual relationship I was in. Subsequently, I avoided sexual relations and remained celibate for 8 years and counting (half by choice, half 'involuntary', TLDR I'm picky).A lot of the responses are reacting negatively to the OP's confrontational and dismissive tone. As a response to these complaints, batman1337 is defending his 'frame'. Realize this is a learned skill via pickup/fast seduction. Conscious or not (I bet conscious), he's using his inner game in this forum. It really is a lifestyle change, and a change in way of thinking for him. You guys are criticizing his assertive, manipulative tone; his lack of empathy, and self-knowledge, his immediate offensive stance. We should understand these are skills that he uses to experience sexuality with women. He put in some mental effort to be able to so easily do this (maybe even unconsciously at this point). And, I have no doubt this is effective. I wouldn't be surprised if it has other benefits outside of heterosexual relationships.We're going to try and convince him this behavior is undesirable and wrong. He most likely thought this when he first started with PUA. A big portion of the 'inner-game' was becoming ethically convinced that this attitude is virtuous. This was a barrier I was unwilling to overcome. We're not going to be able to change that, easily. The pickup-artist is specifically targeting the animal instincts within women, and overcoming societal barriers, to capture their attention and become the object of their desire. It's an indictment of the dysfunctional dating market.I can understand the reaction to Stef's conversation with the PUA. Stef mentioned that the caller was using these skills to attract the kind of girls that would fall for them, while unintentionally turning off virtuous and intelligent girls (the ones that can see through PUA). The reaction they would experience in theory is the reaction the OP is getting in this thread, albeit from a majority male audience. I think Stef said the girls would basically go "eww." But I think what the caller and Stef neglected to mention was how a person gets to become a PUA in the first place. Of course 'naturals' (people who naturally exhibit this behavior/mindset) are born this way, and so have no need to practice game... they just do it. But batman1337 was at some point not-a-PUA. Was he experiencing meaningful relationships with genuine virtuous women, and then decided to learn game and become a PUA? I submit the answer is no. The opposite of PUA is AFC, which stands for "Average, Frustrated Chump." I think the 'frustrated' adjective is very true.OP, please tell us what kind of person you were before becoming PUA, and what the dating outcomes were. Can you contrast them with the outcomes now?We suggest to these PUAs that they should stop playing games with women, and to be genuine, honest, and open. I think the existence of the phenomenon of PUA is a criticism of that approach. For a large portion of men, that just ain't working. I completely agree with Stef, all you're going to do batman is filter girls of the kind of quality that will fall for the games. If you stop playing the games, then you're going to get the kind of girls that don't play games. I think your choice to use Pickup gives a glimpse as to how that dating strategy works out (I cautiously throw in my 8 years of celibacy).My biggest compliant about pickup/fast seduction is that IMHO it works. It works really well. It's an effective tool for men to navigate the dating scene, at least until it gets defeated by women at some point in the future, when the rules of the game change again. I think it's a sign of just how damaged the whole process is. I mean, think of how crazy this is. The OP is a (I assume) able bodied and intelligent male. He's got a biological mother and father who had sexual intercourse to conceive him. Beyond that, his existence is possible because of millions of years of males and females having sex and producing offspring. He's got millions of years of evolution to be an excellent male component to this dance, and yet he has to resort to pickup skills and 'inner game' to get sexual fulfillment. Why the hell is this so hard for so many men? It's almost as bad as having seminars and books to practice effective breathing! Modern society has so badly destroyed the dating scene that he's taken the mindset of ignoring it altogether, and reverting to purely evolutionary mechanisms to get his needs net. This is not in any way an ideal situation, a good portion of the rules of modern life lifted our species out of the animal lifestyle.

[Mike Fleming]

I don't know if what I write will be considered a defense of Pickup Artistry, but I feel I can see the issue from both sides. This is all MHO of course.

....My biggest compliant about pickup/fast seduction is that IMHO it works. It works really well. It's an effective tool for men to navigate the dating scene, at least until it gets defeated by women at some point in the future, when the rules of the game change again. I think it's a sign of just how damaged the whole process is. I mean, think of how crazy this is. The OP is a (I assume) able bodied and intelligent male. He's got a biological mother and father who had sexual intercourse to conceive him. Beyond that, his existence is possible because of millions of years of males and females having sex and producing offspring. He's got millions of years of evolution to be an excellent male component to this dance, and yet he has to resort to pickup skills and 'inner game' to get sexual fulfillment. Why the hell is this so hard for so many men? It's almost as bad as having seminars and books to practice effective breathing! Modern society has so badly destroyed the dating scene that he's taken the mindset of ignoring it altogether, and reverting to purely evolutionary mechanisms to get his needs net. This is not in any way an ideal situation, a good portion of the rules of modern life lifted our species out of the animal lifestyle.

 

Well said.  I have no complaint about pickup artists personally.  i honestly seriously doubt they will have long term happiness and fulfilment but if they want to use certain techniques to achieve voluntary sexual relations then I have no problem with that.  I don't think it's a great idea personally but whatever.  It seems to me to be satisfying short-term wants and needs at the expense of long-term wants and needs so in that way it seems like somewhat of a trade-off.  It's not like I've never done that, I have, but it's something that I had to get out of my system.  I tried it, didn't really work out for me.

 

I think it is a problem with society at large at the moment.  I think it goes towards what a lot of the Men's Rights people say.  Women have broken out of their traditional roles but men haven't.  Women have taken their privileges and left men hanging.  This has resulted in a lot of disharmony in people's relationships.  How many times do you see men make offhand comments about how their wife basically rules over them?  I saw it 2 times in quick succession on another forum recently and we weren't even broaching the subject.  It seems like men are trying to get their frustrations at the situation out even if they haven't considered it properly.

 

So ultimately I think it is just another symptom of the current disparity between the sexes.  We have addressed women's traditional roles in society, we need to address men's traditional roles now.

[Guest Mags]

I'm a woman (don't know how relevant that is but I felt I had to point it out) and stumbled across RSD some time ago (cannot remember how!) I still watch and enjoy the videos to this day, especially Owen and Brad's. Owen in particular has some really interesting stuff to me. I too would love for Stef to interview him. I watch it for the information on motivation/success, some psychology, and I just find it interesting. The social stuff is limited because they predominantly advocate to go out regularly and approach girls to further social skills. Being a woman I obviously cant do that, it wouldn't have the same effect to pickup men and I have below zero desire for it anyway. I need to improve my social skills btw. When I talk about pickup I'm speaking about RSD. I haven't followed any other pickup sources.

Stef talks a bit about pickup in this call in show at 1:58:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6UVQUjS1T8 for anyone interested. I agree with Stef. Pickup is essentially learning the skills to manipulate stupid women. I do believe, RSD at least, has good stuff on motivation, and a few other self-imporvement things. becoming 'sexworthy' they say. I think it can be achieved separate from pickup. Pickup in my opinion lacks self-knowledge. I've never heard anyone from RSD bring up examining the origins of ones problems/ the family. Owen used to be extremely socially inept. Yet he never once talks about his parents; the ones responsible for his development. He never brings up or examines his mother in his videos, which would be obvious considering his 'relationships' with women. I see Owen's outlook on women to be problematic. He seems to think that you cant be successful with women and find the best partner for yourself if you don't go into pickup. That all woman will cheat on you if you don't learn the techniques. He said in a recent video at 10:10 "in my opinion the measurement of whether or not you are a man in your prime -If you have a girlfriend, and you dump her, does she stalk you and threaten to kill herself?" to me thats telling of the kind of women that pickup targets. 

[Think Free]

As MrCapitalism and Mike Flemming point out PUAs exist because Average Frustrated Chumps (AFCs) exist. It's appropriate and reasonable that AFCs be AFCs until they become AFHs (Average Frustrated Husbands), but the questions are why are they SO frustrated? and why does it take so long for them to become AFHs? I think the answers to those questions, respectively, are that they have the wrong objective (largely because they've been taught to have the wrong objective) and the system is screwed up (to which the wrong objectives of men is a contributing factor).

 

What are the factors in society screwing up the system? Well, I can think many, but a few important ones are: The government and society's attack on men; the over-glorification of sex and over-sexualization of our society; the dissolution of the family and wider social structures; and inflated idealism and egos (among both men and women).

 

Anyhow, we can see that PUAry is not even part of the solution to the problem even if it may help to reduce men's frustration in the moment. (Although I can concede that some of the information or material is potentially helpful to a well-balanced man with good judgement.)

 

One thing that I think Stefan helpfully does, but needs to be done more, is placing some responsibility on single women as well, not to mention the society at large (by which I mean people like married men and women).

 

EDIT: I suppose I would be remiss if I didn't mention the attack on women that is occurring in terms of undermining their sense of physical and personal attractiveness, as well as their value as people if they don't follow and accomplish certain life-paths. Certainly that screws with the system too--I mean these PUAs are often playing on their insecurity after all.

[Omega 3 snake oil]

We're going to try and convince him this behavior is undesirable and wrong. He most likely thought this when he first started with PUA. A big portion of the 'inner-game' was becoming ethically convinced that this attitude is virtuous. This was a barrier I was unwilling to overcome. We're not going to be able to change that, easily. The pickup-artist is specifically targeting the animal instincts within women, and overcoming societal barriers, to capture their attention and become the object of their desire. It's an indictment of the dysfunctional dating market....My biggest compliant about pickup/fast seduction is that IMHO it works. It works really well. It's an effective tool for men to navigate the dating scene, at least until it gets defeated by women at some point in the future, when the rules of the game change again. I think it's a sign of just how damaged the whole process is. I mean, think of how crazy this is. The OP is a (I assume) able bodied and intelligent male. He's got a biological mother and father who had sexual intercourse to conceive him. Beyond that, his existence is possible because of millions of years of males and females having sex and producing offspring. He's got millions of years of evolution to be an excellent male component to this dance, and yet he has to resort to pickup skills and 'inner game' to get sexual fulfillment. Why the hell is this so hard for so many men? It's almost as bad as having seminars and books to practice effective breathing! Modern society has so badly destroyed the dating scene that he's taken the mindset of ignoring it altogether, and reverting to purely evolutionary mechanisms to get his needs net. This is not in any way an ideal situation, a good portion of the rules of modern life lifted our species out of the animal lifestyle.

Yep. 100%. I'm glad somebody nailed it better than I could have. 

[Omega 3 snake oil]

I wonder if the train guy in this story is a PUA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2P3qknUN4kAlso, brilliant show.

[MrCapitalism]

Wow what a great point!

 

Also, I wonder if she unconsciously cheated on him as a final test to see if he had low enough self esteem for her to marry... In any case, the (maybe) PUA unwittingly helped to put the brakes on a dysfunctional relationship, or to try and put the final nail in it (if they hadn't called).

[Reason]

Tyler RSD - one of the biggest pick up artists - watches Stefan's videos. He commented on the 'banned from youtube' video.

[PatrickC]

I think the best techniques that the PUA give out are the ones that get you to recognise and dump the flaky or bat shit crazy ones. That said with enough empathy skills, this should be a no brainer too.

 

What with so many guys being brought up in single mother households, they just don't get the right guidance in this area. PUA is a kind of Lord of the Flies scenario as many young men end up listening to their peers. Rather than from successfully married older men.

 

Well said MrCap!

[Omega 3 snake oil]

Tyler RSD - one of the biggest pick up artists - watches Stefan's videos. He commented on the 'banned from youtube' video.

I would really enjoy to hear Tyler on FDR... Stef PLEASE please please make this happen.

[MMX2010]

This topic is quite illuminating. 

 

I'm fairly certain that the original poster crafted it in response to Stefan's original podcast on pick-up artistry, in which he states, "I've never really studied it....but I'm sure that it only works on dumb, stupid women AND that everyone who uses it is enslaved to the people they're using it on." 

 

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_2454_Pickup_Artists_National_Anthem.mp3

 

Stefan's argument is so bad that I'm surprised no one commented on how bad it is. 

 

"He hasn't studied it, but he's dead certain that it only works on dumb stupid women AND that everyone who uses it is enslaved to the people they're using it on."  Really? 

 

A much more honest and balanced argument would be, "I've personally never used it, nor have I studied it extensively, so I cannot generalize about the people who use it.  However, I can state that my impression that it only works on dumb, stupid women is why I haven't studied nor implemented it.  My impression is merely my subjective opinion, and it falls far short of the deep philosophical and deep scientific approach required to either understand pick-up artistry or the women it works on, so DO NOT think my words are an argument."  If Stefan had given this non-argument, he wouldn't have generalized about two groups of people he hasn't tried to understand. 

 

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As far as the original poster goes, he is trolling the board with triggering language, but he is also arguing that you should try to understand pick-up artistry first - in a detached, scientific, personally-exploring way - and then argue its merits or demerits second.  His good argument was dismissed and met with trolling responses such as, "You haven't inspired me to study pick-up artistry." - (as if it's ever anyone else's job to inspire you to seek the truth about something before commenting on it?) - and "You're insulting the readership!" - (Yes, he is, but that isn't the only thing he's doing.) 

 

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The best argument was made by Mr. Capitalism and RyanT, but it is flawed.

 

Mr. Capitalism correctly states, "A lot of the responses are reacting negatively to the OP's confrontational and dismissive tone. As a response to these complaints, batman1337 is defending his 'frame'. Realize this is a learned skill via pickup/fast seduction. Conscious or not (I bet conscious), he's using his inner game in this forum. It really is a lifestyle change, and a change in way of thinking for him. You guys are criticizing his assertive, manipulative tone; his lack of empathy, and self-knowledge, his immediate offensive stance. We should understand these are skills that he uses to experience sexuality with women. He put in some mental effort to be able to so easily do this (maybe even unconsciously at this point). And, I have no doubt this is effective. I wouldn't be surprised if it has other benefits outside of heterosexual relationships. We're going to try and convince him this behavior is undesirable and wrong. He most likely thought this when he first started with PUA. A big portion of the 'inner-game' was becoming ethically convinced that this attitude is virtuous. This was a barrier I was unwilling to overcome. We're not going to be able to change that, easily. The pickup-artist is specifically targeting the animal instincts within women, and overcoming societal barriers, to capture their attention and become the object of their desire. It's an indictment of the dysfunctional dating market."

 

The flaw in his argument is that he only sees the flawed women in the dating market.  (Those flawed women only respond to Pick-Up artists, because they're so free to pursue their animal nature in sexuality.  That's what Stefan meant when he said Pick-Up artistry only works on dumb, stupid women.  And, if only women weren't like this, then the dating market wouldn't be so dysfunctional.)

 

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RyanT continues along this line by asking, "That's the rub of it,  Why not work on self-knowledge?  People are spending thousands just learning how to flirt with women, imagine if they actually put that money into going to therapy?"

 

But both of these men fail to recognize the male aspect of the flawed dating market, which is the unwillingness to maximize their own potential as either boyfriends / husbands / or casual sex partners.  Instead of asking, "Which of these should I implement: therapy or Pick-Up artistry?", why not ask, "How do I implement BOTH Pick-up artistry and therapy?" 

 

If you implement both, you'll become more attractive to women than someone who only implements one or the other.  It's as simple as that, but it requires extra work to implement. 

 

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Lastly, the people who say that Pick-Up artistry doesn't work on virtuous women: (1) have never tried it, and therefore don't know whether it works or doesn't, and (2) wouldn't believe me if I claimed that I used a combination of pick-up artistry, philosophy, empathy, self-knowledge, and lack-of-empathy to inspire a virtuous woman to love me. 

[shirgall]

Lastly, the people who say that Pick-Up artistry doesn't work on virtuous women: (1) have never tried it, and therefore don't know whether it works or doesn't, and (2) wouldn't believe me if I claimed that I used a combination of pick-up artistry, philosophy, empathy, self-knowledge, and lack-of-empathy to inspire a virtuous woman to love me. 

 

You may be the only PUA to want a woman, virtuous or not, to love them. All the PUAs I knew wanted a woman's lust, and would only seek love if the woman had some guts (which, I guess, is a description of virtue).

[SWMA]

You may be the only PUA to want a woman, virtuous or not, to love them. All the PUAs I knew wanted a woman's lust, and would only seek love if the woman had some guts (which, I guess, is a description of virtue).

Having dabbled in the pickup scene myself I find that you might have a very skewed look on "PUAs". Every single PUA I knew wanted a real, loving relationship with a woman. Except for the female PUAs, they wanted that with men. Yes I have not met a homosexual PUA, which I attribute to sample size, personally.

[J. D. Stembal]

At the end of the The Game, Neil Strauss hangs up his player shoes and settles down with a woman. I am not entirely certain of her relative virtue, but she possesses some sort of quality that convinces Neil to retire from the player scene. Like a lot of men, I don't think his heart was really in it, his first love being journalism.

 

In defense of PUAs, the philosophy of game centers on self-improvement, evolving as a man and building confidence through the art of seduction and handling rejection. Yes, there are a lot of cheap gimmicks, pick up lines and tricks like asking a woman to describe her imaginary box. (I still don't quite understand that one.) If you have ever seen a sleight of hand magician work a crowd, you will notice how that this skill is catnip for nearly all women in sight, not just the bunny-boilers. At some point, a man may outgrow the scene, but most of the concepts still apply to male-female relationships in general.

 

For example, you still need to know about shit tests even if you are in a monogamous relationship, according to David Deida. A woman continually tests the "sex-worthiness" of her man. It's base animal instinct. The flip-side of human instinct is that all men want to impregnate 80% of every fertile woman that is not family in his vicinity, but everyone knows already knows this, including women.

 

I agree that the reason professional PUAs and seminars exist is because there are almost two generations of men raised by women (to paraphrase Brad Pitt in Fight Club). We wouldn't be so desperate for the male empowerment crutch of game if we had actually been raised by our fathers instead of perfect strangers.

[shirgall]

Having dabbled in the pickup scene myself I find that you might have a very skewed look on "PUAs". Every single PUA I knew wanted a real, loving relationship with a woman. Except for the female PUAs, they wanted that with men. Yes I have not met a homosexual PUA, which I attribute to sample size, personally.

 

Could be a generation thing. I was looking for love in all the wrong places 20 years ago and got married 11 years ago. Had my share of women that complained about PUAs and how they lose interest and move on but these same gals didn't want to date me. Not a happy time.

[MMX2010]

You may be the only PUA to want a woman, virtuous or not, to love them. All the PUAs I knew wanted a woman's lust, and would only seek love if the woman had some guts (which, I guess, is a description of virtue).

 

 

The dating market has changed so much in the last ten to twenty years that people in stable relationships for 5-or-more years are out of touch. 

 

Women have so much freedom and economic power now that they can demand higher and higher returns on their interactions with the opposite sex.  And this is especially true for 20-something women at the peak of the power, and at the peak of receiving male attention. 

 

I can shorten my argument with a simple one-liner: "A Man Who Can But Doesn't Is Sexy; A Man Who Doesn't Because He Can't Is Unsexy."  So PUA is an essential way of demonstrating that I'm Someone Who Could But Doesn't, or Someone Who Could But Might Not.  And PUA distinguishes me from other men of intelligence and interest-in-philosophy, most of whom are Someone Who Doesn't Because He Can't. 

[Libertus]

When I started to look into this kind of stuff, over ten years ago, I was laughing about funny pick-up-lines.

 

But it leads into so many different things, among them how to be a better lover, why it's good to work out, why you shouldn't drink yourself senseless before talking to a girl, and in general, how to better groom yourself, dress yourself, how to get ahead at your job, how to start a positive inner dialog, how to make friends and influence people, all sorts of social skills, how to motivate yourself, how to diffuse a dangerous situation with a bully ("AMOG"), how to master any skill, how to affect change in yourself if you just work on yourself and apply principles consistently, how to not get taken advantage of, how you become the person you have always wanted to become.

 

Because, let's face it, nobody is attracted to a loser. You can't fault women for not being attracted to a loser. "Just be yourself" is great advice if you're already a cool, good-looking guy, but "make the best out of yourself, work on yourself tirelessly, focus on your career, your inner game and your skills, and the women will come" is much better advice if you're kind of in-between, needing some work. As most of us do.

 

What I wanted to say is, it often starts with pickup-lines, but ends with the fantastic journey that is your life.