MysterionMuffles Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 Lately I've been seeing people in public kissing their kids on the lips. Not like making out, maybe a peck, but nonetheless on the lips. Does this count as molestation of any kind or is this normal to some degree? I personally find it weird because isn't the lips an erogenous zone? It's more sensitive and receptive to such a touch, so shouldn't that mutual exchange of sensation be reserved between romantic partners? Obviously kissing a child on the forehead, head, and cheek is alright, but kissing a child on the mouth seems unsettling to me. I also used to have friends who were siblings of 4 (now 3 because unfortunately one of them died of cancer )--and between opposite sexes, they would greet each other with a peck on the lips. Would this count as incest no matter how light the kiss is? Anybody have thoughts on this?
OtherOtie Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 I don't think it's inherently sexual in nature. It's probably a cultural thing.
Tyler Durden Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 You mean like this:http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Stephanie-Seymour-Son-Beach-Pic-500x333.jpgAn innocent peck on the lips between mother and son. But obviously disturbed relationships aside. I agree with you, I think it's weird, in all situations, regardless of age or context.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 21, 2014 Author Posted May 21, 2014 LOL that can't be mother and son if he's also copping some side boob there
dsayers Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 LOL that can't be mother and son if he's also copping some side boob there lol. That was my reaction too. Were you kissed on the lips by family as a child? I ask because your surprise surprises me. It was a part of my childhood so until now, I never gave it a second thought. Interesting question. I'm ambivalent as an initial reaction. On the one hand, affection is EXTREMELY important to model for a child, including the child. On the other hand, there are ways to be affectionate without kissing on the lips. Then again, kisses are given with the lips, so it's not the same as genitals even if it can be used by adults as an erogenous zone. As such, I would say that it comes down to intent since the behavior itself isn't problematic.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 21, 2014 Author Posted May 21, 2014 I don't remember having been kissed on the lips as a child let alone on the cheek.
Tyler Durden Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 LOL that can't be mother and son if he's also copping some side boob there I know, I know. But ask google and he will back me up: http://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=3gR8U4f3LMmX-Abl84HwBQ#q=stephanie+seymour+son+kissing&spell=1
wdiaz03 Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 I know, I know. But ask google and he will back me up: http://www.google.com/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=3gR8U4f3LMmX-Abl84HwBQ#q=stephanie+seymour+son+kissing&spell=1 Heck if my mom looked like that I'll be all over her too!
Wesley Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 I think the question is more along the lines of asking if these are some form of child sexual molestation: I am one to say they are not is they are slight pecks on the cheek and they are not enforced by parents or other authorities. If they are forced to kiss on the lips when they don't want to, I would consider that something closer to sexual abuse. I have seen friends and such kiss on the lips before in a friendly manner. So the act in itself is not sexual necessarily. I think it is simply a sign of intimacy and I think you may not have even been truly intimate with anyone who you were not having sex with, which might be where the confusion arises. in·ti·ma·cy ˈintəməsē/ noun noun: intimacy close familiarity or friendship; closeness. Of course, I might always be missing something based on my childhood, so let me know if I am off-base with how I am looking at this.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 21, 2014 Author Posted May 21, 2014 Wow thank you for your openness on this Thomas. That does sound creepy. Although creepy is a nonphilosophical term...damn is it creepy! Sorry to hear the deficit of affection in your life, though it seems you've gotten big bursts of it in strange ways... I think your imaginary conversation at the end would be nice. It would teach a kid to know how to be explicit with their boundaries, it would help a lot in deciding just what they really want and need. Though another side of me feels like that kind of conversation can be had with a predator who might try to over step their boundaries and say "well you SHOULD be okay with it." It's kinda tricky. And those pictures Wesley posted still creep me out. Basically my stance is kissing a kid on the lips is analagous to kissing their genitals or buttocks. It's too sensitive of a receptor of sexual pleasure and although lip to cheek is fine, lip to lip again is sharing a physical sensation that only two consenting adults should share in. I am still open to seeing what other people think though, and how they can make a case to how it's okay to kiss a child or sibling on the lips BEYOND cultural crap. When I saw my friend kiss his sister on the lips, it was a quickpeck where they didn't press their lips together too hard, but I felt like it was a weird tease. Life "if you weren't my sister, I'd be going all out," kind of thing. Akin to Diaz's comment which I find disturbing on so many levels lol. Marty McFly anybody?!
dsayers Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 those pictures Wesley posted still creep me out I know you said you weren't kissed on the lips as a child. How was affection modeled for/shared with you? The reason I ask is because while I certainly acknowledge that this is an interesting conversation, I experience no creepiness from those images. Although I would challenge the use of the word intimacy. You don't have to know somebody as a person to kiss them on the lips. I think affection is a more accurate classification.
Wesley Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 Although I would challenge the use of the word intimacy. You don't have to know somebody as a person to kiss them on the lips. I think affection is a more accurate classification. That might be a fine clarification. I am not particularly wed to the word intimacy and think that you would be free to replace it with affection. My only intent was to differentiate kissing on the lips from sexuality or lust or other terms like that.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 21, 2014 Author Posted May 21, 2014 I know you said you weren't kissed on the lips as a child. How was affection modeled for/shared with you? The reason I ask is because while I certainly acknowledge that this is an interesting conversation, I experience no creepiness from those images. Although I would challenge the use of the word intimacy. You don't have to know somebody as a person to kiss them on the lips. I think affection is a more accurate classification. I don't recall any affection being given in any way. Not physically nor a kind word here and there. It's only recently that I've started giving hugs to my cousins, but nothing for the adults as of yet. The only thing I CAN remember was my aunt carrying me and singing me to sleep with a song about a soldier leaving his wife to fight for his country. Propaganda aside, the lyrics and melody brought me to tears. It's one of the first memories I have and I've connected it with how much I feel from a touching work of art, and just how much I want to invoke the same with my own music or literature. Thanks for asking! I beg to differ with the last two posts. Maybe I am 'square', but kissing someone on the lips is for me really intimate. Even if just a short kiss... I would compare the importance of the number of people kissed to the importance of the number of sexual partners, but maybe that's just me. You're welcome. No I meant the conversation in a 'Stef is curious with Izzy' kind of way. Though I get what you're saying, it's a weird thing to bring up with kids, but I would encourage them to express their boundaries, especially since I know, that I would be on the 'cuddling maybe too much and starting to annoy the kid' side if I'm not being conscious of it. It's interesting that you brought that up because when I was taking care of my neice still, I did notice that she was a good recepient for my unresolved need for cuddling. I noticed that I used to hug her out of nowhere like when we were playing or when she was sitting on my lap. I listened to her physical feedback though, wherein sometimes she didnt want to be embraced as such. So I've since stopped imposing my cuddles on her and ask if I can get a hug, to which she does choke me with her chubby sausage arms. I know for a fact that when she's wide awake, she does not like affection, but when she's sleepy, she can NOT let go of me if I was the one to cuddle her to sleep. Even after her eyes have fully closed, I would try to get away, but she would wake up for a second and reach her arms up for more sleepy hugs until she's deeply asleep. Part of the reason why I posted this topic was because a cousin of mine kissed her on the mouth just like her parents do, and it always makes me feel odd when I see that. What's worse is how they force her to hug or kiss almost every aunt or uncle in the room goodbye instead of letting her be okay with a general goodbye wave to everybody.
meta Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 Living in a country where i never saw this behaviour, it creeped me out when i discovered it when living in the US.I felt very uncomfortable. It's a matter of culture. To me kissing on the lips is the same tongue or not. I would agree with Thomas when you compare it to sexual partners.It's very intimate for me.
Wesley Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 To Markus and to Thomas, you both have used to word intimate to describe kissing as if children being intimate with parents is a bad thing. That is why I specifically defined intimacy so as to avoid confusion. in·ti·ma·cy ˈintəməsē/ noun noun: intimacy close familiarity or friendship; closeness. Affection was also proposed as a term to use that was better than intimate: af·fec·tion əˈfekSHən/ noun noun: affection; plural noun: affections 1. a gentle feeling of fondness or liking. If you would like to propose a new word or definition as to what kissing resembles, then that is fine. However, I think intimacy and affection are great things that parents and children should have in their relationships and I would not consider kissing (which you say is intimate) to therefore be something bad for children. I also have done some research and there are many anthropologists who think that kissing originated as a way of mouth feeding food to babies and toddlers before manufactured and processed baby food was invented. This would have been somewhat common for certain foods in the transition between breat milk and solid food. Thus, kissing would be much more for children than for coulples in its origins and meaning and then the feeling of affection was translated to adults and romantic relationships later. I don't know enough to know what is true and wat isn't, but if that is true, it would seem that as far as evolution is concerned, kissing is meant for children and the improper use is when romantic partners kiss.
dsayers Posted May 21, 2014 Posted May 21, 2014 kissing someone on the lips is for me really intimate. Even if just a short kiss... It's a common misconception that intimate means physical. The definition given above indicates closeness, such as knowing a person, being familiar with them as a person. Thanks for asking! My pleasure. Thanks for sharing. Isn't it amazing how what we experience in our formative years shapes our experiences our entire lives? You never experienced affection, so displays of affection strike you as inappropriate because you only know of them in a sexual context. Since I did experience it, it never occurred to me that it could be seen as inappropriate. I know what you mean about the song though. As a baby, I was given this little yellow lion that you could wind up and his head would slowly move while music box innards played "My Little Sunshine." I'm told my father's mother gave it to me. She was one of the most gentle people in my childhood and died when I was 14-ish. I had that lion for the longest time, but don't know where it is now. To this day, if I hear that song, particularly if I envision as played in a music box form, my eyes well up. When I was a bit younger, it was also accompanied by memories of her, but that has since faded.
dsayers Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I can't tell who you're talking to since multiple people offered the correction. I will say that I think that if a person does not accept their own capacity for error and suggests that the definition of terms being debated are inconsequential, they lack integrity.
Wiltin Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I don't find any of the images posted creepy. At one stage I and my 3 brothers were made to kiss both of our parents as well as each other on the lips every night before bed. This lasted only a few months but it sticks in my mind as a very uncomfortable experience for all involved. It was particularly gross to kiss my dad's whiskered mouth and my youngest brother who thought it was hilarious to drench his lips with saliva first. It was an idiotic idea on my parents' part, I think it had to do with trying to teach us to be more affectionate.
J-William Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 Well well setting aside all of the hostility that this topic has brought up which might be an indication that it's a good topic to discuss… As a father of a young child I do not kiss her on the lips. I'll kiss her on the cheek many times a day or on the forhead or on the nose but I don't find it appropriate to kiss her on the lips. It may be something as simple as it's not socially acceptable. And if it's not socially acceptable and I don't feel like doing it then I think that's a pretty good concordance. I think as a general principle you should not blur the lines between normal closeness with your child and anything sexual. Your child will have plenty of time to learn about sexual relationships when they get older. When they are children they need hugs and kisses and if the hugs and kisses feel creepy or weird they probably are. I really hope you are not living with your father because it would confirm my theory that you are using this forum to live out your anger at him. That's probably also why you post so freaking much. Wow dsayers you really do post a lot. I just crossed a thousand and I've been a member for nearly 8 years, you blew past a thousand in less than 8 months.
Wesley Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 @ dysayers : Dude, I don't know if it's the combination of you being 38, having that avatar & title, the condescending tone in most of you posts, plus I somehow remember to have read that you're living with your Dad (or maybe I confused that with someone else, you post so much it's hard to find any specific quote I thought I've read) but anyway. You REALLY have the capacity to make me angry. And that's what I get from your posts. Anger. Even more than Wesley's shortened manipulated word definition. If you are going to smart ass, do it the right way. Ok, so I'm in the library, right now, and sorry, if you're going to smart ass me, I am going to smart ass you. OXFORD DICTIONARY, p.815 (right column, first word) in-tim-acy 1) the state of having a close relationship with sb 2) a thing that a person says or does to sb that they know very well 3) sexual activity, especially an act of SEXUAL INTERCOURSE (i am not even kidding, 'sexual intercourse' is all caps in this edition) Wikipedia, first sentence: Furthermore I like to add a poster of a popular movie How is Wesley multiple people? You just gave your subjective definition, given your dysfunctional sexual upbringing that you posted in another topic...I mean, are you that BLIND? You ask people in their 'Introduce Yourself' posts if their wives 'have self knowledge' before anything else...yet you seem to be unable to admit your own distorted view of things in relation to your history. I mean, if I really have to spell it out for you, if you are gonna put 'intimate' and 'kids' in one sentence together, as in 'being intimate with kids' - you will be thought of as a p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e. I really hope you are not living with your father because it would confirm my theory that you are using this forum to live out your anger at him. That's probably also why you post so freaking much. Several things. I presented a definition for a word, you may agree with it or disagree with it. Yes, there are multiple definitions for a word which describe the DIFFERENT ways in which the word may be used. This is exactly why discussing definitions of words in a debate are useful to do. The debate is meaningless if half of the words have different definitions to either side. If you agree, then we can move on as if it is settled. If you disagree, I was specifically asking you to present a new word or a new definition as to describe what was going on. Dsyars did this, and presented the definition to be affection. I also explicitly said that my attempt with defining the time was to separate kissing on the lips from sexuality. I provided several examples where friends have done it in a non-sexual way. I also provided an anthropological theory that claims that kissing on the lips originated from parents mouth feeding children. I (and I think dsayers) were simply asking for you to recognize that a definition had been presented and to address it by either agreeing with it and then moving on as if it were true, presenting your own definition, or presenting a new word that you think more accurately describes what is going on. Now, the resorting to personal attacks in an attempt to shame and have someone self-attack for contributing to the boards and community and showing vulnerability in other threads makes me feel disgusted and I am pretty sure actually violates several board guidelines. If half of what you are saying is somehow true and not you venting and projecting your own rage, then the method you have chosen to go about this is entirely not helpful. I don't know what is going on, and this may be an emotional topic for you, but calling someone "BLIND" saying someone would be thought of as a pedophile (spelled out in bold red, mind you) and then railing on someone for living with a parent when you aren't even sure if it is true or not makes me feel very angry.
dsayers Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 You REALLY have the capacity to make me angry. And that's what I get from your posts. Anger. How do you know this is a reflection upon me? Do you understand that ad hominem won't alter the truth value of any objective claim I make? Such as the fact that the word pedophile references a predeliction. The phrase I think you were looking for is child molester. Also, do you realize that a movie poster is not an argument?
MysterionMuffles Posted May 23, 2014 Author Posted May 23, 2014 I mean, if I really have to spell it out for you, if you are gonna put 'intimate' and 'kids' in one sentence together, as in 'being intimate with kids' - you will be thought of as a p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e. I really hope you are not living with your father because it would confirm my theory that you are using this forum to live out your anger at him. That's probably also why you post so freaking much. Yes I can see that may be a common misconception. I have that knee jerk reaction to call the P word when it comes to "intimate with children." However, to an lesser degree, parents think I'm one when I talk to their kids in public when they themselves aren't. There was this little boy in a shopping cart talking to the female cashier and me about his card collection while his parents weren't even paying attention to him. Just ringing up their items mindlessly. So apparently it's okay for this boy to be talking to the cashier girl, because lord knows women are incapable of being pedophiles. Then I address the boy and comment on how many YuGiOh cards he has (or whatever it was) and the parents YANK the boy out of my range. Anyways dude, I think you're starting to take this debate a little too personally. I'm really sorry about your history when it comes to your dad and all--but it seems to me this thread is boiling up some frustration in you. I think it's best if you take a break from it...
dsayers Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I should have stated my irritation with this statement. So does that mean you are applying that to unknown people kissing kids on the lips? No. I know my neighbors. I am not intimate with them. By this I mean that I do not know their hopes, their dreams, their desires, their dedication to self-knowledge, etc. It is entirely possible for a parent to kiss their children, even just on the cheek, and not know who they are despite knowing them. I should have stated how I felt anger/frustration at that. So you are trying to say kissing is not physical? If frustration leads you to the potential conclusion that somebody is actually saying that kissing is not physical, Occam's razor would suggest your interpretation is far more likely to be wrong that for it to be that somebody is actually taking up the position that a physical act is not physical. The only time I've spoken in the context of "not physical" was in reference to the definition of intimate. I felt this was the ultimate attack on me. In your frustration, you went so far as to suggest that bothering with definitions is pedantic. Rather than expressing curiosity or a desire to hone your own understanding of the world around you, you condescended others for doing just that. I view that behavior as not accepting one's capacity for error. I took care to phrase it in such a way as to make it clear that I was speaking generally, even if you specifically fit that bill in that moment. Not the same as an attack at all. I appreciate you being honest with your experience. On a side note, I noticed that my rating started plummeting to the tune of about a philosopher king's daily complement the moment you began to attack me in your posts. I hope that this transition into being honest and open (dialogue) is indicative of what is likely you using your downvotes as a weapon will stop.
corpus mentium Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 Kissing on the lips (quick peck) was also in my family and I think it stopped for the children around the age of six. I don't have any negative memories towards it such as being forced or expected to do it and I would also be in the camp of not having a problem with it so long as the child didn't object. I find it interesting that the those in this thread that admittedly experienced less parent-child intimacy are expressing more objection to this act in contrast to the those who experienced more.
MMX2010 Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Isn't it amazing how what we experience in our formative years shapes our experiences our entire lives? You never experienced affection, so displays of affection strike you as inappropriate because you only know of them in a sexual context. Since I did experience it, it never occurred to me that it could be seen as inappropriate. My childhood experiences of affection were very similar to Rainbow Jamz's. And I also find those images to be creepy. So all three of our reactions are easily traced to early childhood.
LandoRamone30 Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 What is the motivation of an adult that kisses a child on the lips? Kissing is a behavior that children do not know at birth. It would have to be modeled to learn it.
corpus mentium Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 I think I should have expressed my sympathies to those who did not receive much loving parent-child contact when they were young. I am sorry to anyone who missed out on this, because I think it really is extremely important. If there was anything else wrong with my previous post I would appreciate if it could be shared with me. ---- What is the motivation of an adult that kisses a child on the lips? Kissing is a behavior that children do not know at birth. It would have to be modeled to learn it. Isn't the motivation to show affection and reinforce a loving bond between the adult and child? Isn't skin-to-skin contact well-known to be beneficial - something of which kisses are a small part? Perhaps this article would be of interest: http://chealth.canoe.ca/channel_section_details.asp?text_id=4220&channel_id=11&relation_id=27881 Does kissing have to be modeled to learn it? There seems to be some debate about that not only in this thread but among anthropologists as well. It should also be pointed out generally that kissing-type behavior is not unique to humans. Both points are addressed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss#Biology_and_evolution ---- There was something I was thinking about yesterday but didn't post because I was tired. I do remember later in my childhood a growing repugnance towards kissing family members on the lips when I saw it with my younger siblings and cousins. This was when I was entering puberty and after this type of kissing had already stopped between me and other family members. Maybe the reason for this could be due to sexual awakening. I'm not sure. My wife brought up a similar story about herself after seeing this thread. She was also raised in a family where they kissed on the lips. She mentioned that she had no problem with it as a young child but her family expected her to keep doing it after reaching puberty and she had also developed a repugnance towards it. After reading this thread I got to thinking about another intimate parent-child interaction: breastfeeding. The nipples are also considered an erogenous zone (even during breastfeeding for some mothers, some of whom become aroused to the point of orgasm) but we make an allowance for this connection in order for a mother to feed her child. Until which age breastfeeding is considered acceptable also tends to generate heated debate, although there appears to be some scientific support for breastfeeding up to the age of four or five. This is mentioned in the video below around 12:00 or so, but the entire beginning of the video I think is important to watch as well. While it is not conclusively known that kissing is a vestigial act from premastication, could it be that there is a positive psychological result from this type of touch between parents and children? Could it be that not kissing (or even not premasticating) is the learned behavior in some locales just like not breastfeeding in public is a learned behavior in others?
MysterionMuffles Posted May 24, 2014 Author Posted May 24, 2014 Kissing on the lips (quick peck) was also in my family and I think it stopped for the children around the age of six. I don't have any negative memories towards it such as being forced or expected to do it and I would also be in the camp of not having a problem with it so long as the child didn't object. I find it interesting that the those in this thread that admittedly experienced less parent-child intimacy are expressing more objection to this act in contrast to the those who experienced more. Thomas shared his experience of being kissed on the mouth and he finds it creepy now. (If I may speak for him that is) Hm what I'm starting to understand here is that the kiss on the lips seems normal for a while but a child entering puberty or any age of sexual development, it stops becoming normal. Like having a child sit on a parent's lap. How long til that becomes unsavoury and no longer normal? I would say around 7-10 kid grow out of feeling comfortable with being on a parent's lap.
corpus mentium Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 I got a vibe from Thomas's post that something more was going on due to a number of factors including his multiple uses of the word creepy, his mother not initiating/avoiding affectionate acts, etc. Only he can clarify that and I would stand corrected if I misunderstood. As to how old the kid has to be until it becomes inappropriate - wouldn't that largely depend on the preferences of the two people involved? In the cases you listed with the siblings, it looks like they never decided that it was a problem. At what point does family members showing love and affection for each other become incest?
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