Thoughts on Elliot Rodger?

[--------]

Feminists are quickly jumping on this issue and I've already seen articles stirring the debate on disarming the population. What's not being said is all the events that lead before it. Public schools, the matriarchy, the bond between his parents, the hundreds of other things Stef talks on his shows and people call in about.

 

If Rodger ever skyped Stef on his calling in show and had a first real conversation, the news would look very different. 

[prolix]

The evidence points to poor parenting. And by evidence I mean "seven dead and seven injured"...

[cynicist]

Apparently the last attack in that community was 13 years ago by a guy named David Attias, whose father also happens to work as a movie director...

[Wiltin]

I see a vain and isolated sociopath in his last youtube video. He fits a particular stereotype in my mind of an obsessive, jealous and abusive boyfriend. I'm interested to see if Stefan puts up a video about this incident. I think it would be worth exploring his background as a case study. My first guess is absent parents, very little human interaction at preschool age, isolation as a teenager made worse by no sympathy from his peers due to material affluence.

[fractional slacker]

The kid is/was deranged. Obviously parenting is the first place to look.After that, it should be noted he specifically targeted blonde girls. Imagine if it were a blonde kid who targeted girls with black hair.

Viva La Raza?

[shirgall]

No one is addressing the elephant in the room:

Obviously we need a government program to properly distribute booty to lonely youngsters.

 

"From the needs of the hottie to the needs of the perv."

[Pleiades]

The kid is/was deranged. Obviously parenting is the first place to look.After that, it should be noted he specifically targeted blonde girls. Imagine if it were a blonde kid who targeted girls with black hair.

Viva La Raza?

 

Do we know the hair colour of his mother? Would this be relevant?

[shirgall]

I envied the cool kids, and wanted to be one of them. I was bitfrustrated at my parents for not

shaping me into one ofthese kids in the past. They nevermade an effortto dressme in stylish clothing

or getme a good-looking haircut. I had to make every effortto rectify this. had to adapt.

 

My first act wasto askmy parents to allow me to bleach my hair blonde. I always envied and admired

blonde-haired people,they always seemed so muchmore beautiful. My parents agreed to let me do it,

and father took me to hair salon on Mulholland Drive in Woodland Hills. Choosing that hairsalon was a

bad decision, forthey only bleached the top of my head blonde. When indignantly questioned why

they didn’tmake all of my hair blonde,they said thatI wastoo young for a full bleaching. I wasfurious. I

thought looked so silly with blonde hair atthe top of my head and black hair atthe sides and back. I

dreaded going to school the next day with this weird new hair.

 

 

 

Page 16-17 for this stuff. http://cryptome.org/2014/05/elliot-rodger.pdf

He seemed to hate "Soumaya" who became his stepmother very soon after the divorce... and she had dark hair.

More on Soumaya: 

 

I soon became accustomed to Soumaya being part of father’s household. She hails from the

Akaaboune family, a very prominent family from the country of Morocco. Forthe initial period of her

being a newmember of the family, we got along well, and she was quite fun. Butsoon she would start

to discipline me in a harsh way that I wasn’t used to. Ifeltthat because she wasn’t my real parent,she

had no rightto discipline me in such a way, and so rebelled. That’s where the first conflicts arose. There

would be manymore to come in later years.

 

 

[SirJamesIII]

Envy and jealousy turned into anger and violence. Mental health issues are obviously part of it, but often people say that to insulate themselves from the notion that these things can be caused by some sort of cultural blowback (think Waco). It's not as if his complaints about women are unfounded and also isn't necessarily the case that his misogynistic attitudes prevented him from acquiring a mate (at least until he went completely off the deep end and got into some hardcore men's rights stuff on the internet). At a young age men who are underdeveloped (short, looked pretty young for 22), have mental health issues and divorced parents are unfairly treated by their peers. As much as I like to say the parents are entirely to blame, you still have to understand that schools nowadays provide places for kids to grow without parental supervision. I think we still live in a time where even good parents can have trouble maintaining open communication with their children, especially when your kid is socially successful, you may not have a great incentive coach your kid on things that may pertain to things like being polite and respectful. So long as your kid is happy, who cares how your kid treats other kids. Your kid may be big dick and you don't even know about it. 

 

Here we have a kid who's sense of entitlement got warped into a sense of justice. To Elliot, he should've gotten that first slice of birthday cake because it was his birthday. Ultimately he liked to play the victim while neglecting his own path to self-realization. Narcissism is just a side-effect to compensate for this. However, it appears in his manifesto that he openly talks about his insecurity. It doesn't appear like he's pretending to be all great when he really isn't. He just thinks he's never done anything wrong to hurt anyone, so why does he feel so shitty and alone? He compares himself to the men who do have sex and then he uses that to bootstrap himself to narcissism. And its not like the kid is wrong, he's just going postal over dumb teenage girls. It's just petty to me. Women became so idealized to him that he became fixated on just one small part of human relationships and became overwhelmed that our sexually repressed and backwards culture didn't satisfy him. If only he knew how much he wasn't missing.

 

The kid was surrounded by perfect hollywood types in his family. He probably thought he was going to snag a blonde babe by birthright. He even mentions how much he empathized with the character Prince Zuko from Avatar. He felt that he was a Prince who had everything taken from him and he needed to restore himself to the status he deserved. He was a child of divorce, so I can see the connection. 

 

From a guy who's been a sorority girl boy toy before, yeah girls pretty much select guys based on how many likes their photos get on instagram and facebook when posing with their bfs. I have a lot of disrespect for young women. But how can he still be upset at not receiving attention women he doesn't respect? That's the great mystery to young misogynists to me. Probably projecting the hate he had for his step mom onto all women.

[shirgall]

I have to say that any if any gal he tried to date got a creepy vibe and said no was justified.

[cab21]

at what point is it poor parenting, vs the individual just being a poor human being?

[OtherOtie]

Yeah, the feminists continue to disgust me over this. They're trying to paint it as if it was a crime motivated by pure misogyny, as if every hopeless virgin male has the potential to shoot up a bunch of sorority girls. Nevermind the clear sociopathy, narcisism and god-complex. It was rape culture and patriarchy. This is why we need feminism!

[shirgall]

Nevermind the clear sociopathy, narcisism and god-complex. It was rape culture and patriarchy.

 

 

And never mind that he killed twice as many men as women in his rampage.

[A__]

Do we know the hair colour of his mother? Would this be relevant?

 

I don't know but there's a photo of him out there as a really young child with his hair dyed blond. One detail is trivial but details add up. 

[OtherOtie]

Can you believe this? http://bellejar.ca/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-and-men-who-hate-women/

 

 

“We don’t know if Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. We don’t know if he was a “madman.” We do know that he was desperately lonely and unhappy, and that the Men’s Rights Movement convinced him that his loneliness and unhappiness was intentionally caused by women.Because this is what the Men’s Rights Movement does: it spreads misogyny, it spreads violence, and most of all it spreads a sense of entitlement towards women’s bodies.Pretending that this is the a rare act perpetrated by a “crazy” person is disingenuous and also does nothing to address the threat of violence that women face every day. We can’t just write this one off – we need to talk about all of the fucked up parts of our culture, especially the movements that teach men that they have the right to dominate and intimidate and violate women, that lead to this, and we need to change things. Because if we don’t, I guarantee that this will happen again. And again. And again.”

[J-William]

Wow, what a colossally evil asshole. I'd say the government taught him some lessons he really took to heart. Like if you're really angry at someone it's morally justified to randomly go murdering people. (see Iraq and Afghanistan)

 

The salient facts as I can find from a fairly quick perusal...

 

1. He was continually bullied from a young age, which means he did not have parents committed to doing whatever it took to stop it.

 

2. He had an odd relationship with his mother. He seems to think that they had a good relationship yet he really really hates women. That doesn't fit well together, and also they weren't close enough that he could talk about how desperately lonely he was. So it sounds like his mother was real failure as a mother.

 

3. He did not have a halfway decent male role model in his life. His father was a real Dick to him.

 

4. Seriously what a waste of space his father is. If he had actually talked to his son he might have found out how desperately lonely he was. And as a guy in Hollywood he certainly could have helped his son get laid.

And at least if he had helped his son get laid that might not have been very good for the girl, because this guy would probably have turned into a creepy stalker, but at least there wouldn't be seven dead people.

Can you believe this? http://bellejar.ca/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-and-men-who-hate-women/

I can totally believe it. I can also totally believe that someone would conflate the men's rights movement with a bunch of people who are pissed off about pick up artists techniques that don't work for them.

If you're pushing an agenda why not push it in an entirely disingenuous and ill-informed way.

[JohnH.]

Yeah, the feminists continue to disgust me over this. They're trying to paint it as if it was a crime motivated by pure misogyny, as if every hopeless virgin male has the potential to shoot up a bunch of sorority girls. Nevermind the clear sociopathy, narcisism and god-complex. It was rape culture and patriarchy. This is why we need feminism!

 

Could this be an example of actual misogyny?  I know feminists throw misogyny around any chance they get, but if there were a time to use it, could this be the appropriate time?

[cab21]

what movement teaches what that article claims mens rights movement to teach? those claims are absurd.

[OtherOtie]

Could this be an example of actual misogyny?  I know feminists throw misogyny around any chance they get, but if there were a time to use it, could this be the appropriate time?

 

Do you mean Rodger's killings? I haven't really gone too deep into it, but from the two videos I've seen, I'm not sure. If he's misogynistic, it's hard for me to distinguish that from his general sociopathy. He seemed to be infuriated by both men and women for different reasons. I wouldn't defend him on the charge of misogyny, but it's clear to me at least that his murders weren't motivated purely by that. Feminists seem to want to paint it like this guy went out to kill a bunch of women because no one would have sex with him. I don't doubt that's the cover story, but there are a lot of lonely virgins out there who would never in a million years commit this sort of atrocity.

 

EDIT: Upon further reading it does seem as if he's a misoginist, as he claims that women are flawed, incapable of reason, and should be quarentined like a plague.

[MMX2010]

I have to say that any if any gal he tried to date got a creepy vibe and said no was justified.

 

I get the impression that he never even tried.  (But I didn't read his manifesto or anything.) 

[st434u]

While watching the video I had the impression that I was watching a scene from a Hollywood movie. It wouldn't surprise me if, in a way, the guy was so high on SSRI's and stuff, that he thought he was playing a part.

 

In any case, there's one part I recognized from an actual movie. When he says "they're animals, and I'll slaughter them like animals" it's almost word-for-word from a line that Anakin makes in Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones, which came out in 2002 when this guy was 10.

 

And that "evil" fake laughter he kept making was ridiculous. It seemed like something copied out of a kids cartoon villain.

[Arbitrary_Signifier]

Just wondering, what's everyone's working definition of feminist?  Most people I see use the term claim it's about equality (in one form or another).

[Pleiades]

Just wondering, what's everyone's working definition of feminist?  Most people I see use the term claim it's about equality (in one form or another).

 

Honestly, that's just a front as far as I can tell.

 

The dictionary definition of feminist relates to equality between the sexes. Especially women.

 

Feminism is founded on the principal of Patriarchy theory, which states that men designed systems of power to exclusively benefit men at the expense of women.

[PatrickC]

As a FaceBook friend suggested after a Guardian article recently that she wrote at the weekend. "Jessica Valenti is right when she says: "The truth is that there is no such thing as a lone misogynist – they are created by our culture, and by communities that tells them that their hatred is both commonplace and justified."

 

The community that teaches boys that hatred is both commonplace and justified is the same that considers it funny when people sell "Throw rocks at boys" to little children, and for legal professionals to call men "smelly boys""..

 

Hey, go figure

 

Da link!

[Magnus]

There's something very odd about this particular rampage killer episode. It seems very contrived, almost like it's out of a Movie of the Week. Actually, that's not even fair to TV movies, because even they aren't as filled to the brim with clichés as this event is -- a socially isolated frustrated young man with deep anxiety over his virginity, height and small penis decides to murder a predominantly blonde sorority and random handsome couples, while proclaiming himself in his 150-page manifesto to be superior to the point of being god-like.

 

It doesn't even rate as a B-movie. It's like one of those soft-porn cable movies from the 1980s. It's like a bad parody of a mass murder rampage. Even Rodger's ordinary manner of speech sounds like one of the villains from a Scooby Doo episode. It's heavily mannered.

 

Young male spree killers usually have major cognitive processing problems -- Lanza, Cho, Loughner, Holmes. But Rodger seemed to have a grasp on reality. He appears to have had a deeply unrealistic set of expectations and beliefs about making friends and sexual attraction, but he doesn't strike me as psychotic like the others.

 

Elliot Rodger sounds like someone who mediated reality through fiction -- like someone who learned to speak English by watching TV. His "manifesto" isn't a set of ideas, like Ted Kaczynski. It's an autobiography. A story.

[cynicist]

While watching the video I had the impression that I was watching a scene from a Hollywood movie. It wouldn't surprise me if, in a way, the guy was so high on SSRI's and stuff, that he thought he was playing a part.

 

In any case, there's one part I recognized from an actual movie. When he says "they're animals, and I'll slaughter them like animals" it's almost word-for-word from a line that Anakin makes in Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones, which came out in 2002 when this guy was 10.

 

And that "evil" fake laughter he kept making was ridiculous. It seemed like something copied out of a kids cartoon villain.

 

Wow fantastic point. I had the same sense of him faking (that laughter really was ridiculous) but I couldn't figure this part out at the time. I knew his quote about slaughtering them like animals sounded familiar... In the movie, Anakin is distraught about his mother dying at the hands of the sand people, and at that time he is both in tears and full of rage. The similarity is eerie. 

[shirgall]

His mother was friends with noted romance counselor George Lucas. It's not a surprise Episode II comes to mind.

[Arbitrary_Signifier]

The dictionary definition of feminist relates to equality between the sexes. Especially women.

 

This is what worries me, a confusion between different kinds of feminists--those who oppose gender-based discrimination, and those who believe that women have a "privilege" disparity requiring special treatment.  I guess a better word for the latter feminists would be sexists.

[jpahmad]

at what point is it poor parenting, vs the individual just being a poor human being?

 

I am trying to figure out the same thing.  There seems to be a certian point when we go from pity to condemntation.  What happens at that point and roughly where is it it?

[Magnus]

I am trying to figure out the same thing. There seems to be a certian point when we go from pity to condemntation. What happens at that point and roughly where is it it?

It's both, clearly. Elliot Rodger was a rampage murderer. That's ethically indefensible. He was also the victim of a lifetime of abuse at the hands of his parents and step-mother, if his life history is to be believed (and it's highly credible on those points, and at least partially corroborated). The fact that his abuse caused an emotional and psychological pathology that motivated his murders doesn't alter the fact that he apparently chose to murder people. Understanding what motivated him could help society prevent similar patterns, but not make his murders non-criminal. As long as people blame guns and BMWs, we won't.

[Lians]

I am trying to figure out the same thing.  There seems to be a certian point when we go from pity to condemntation.  What happens at that point and roughly where is it it?

 

Sympathy and moral responsibility don't belong in the same category so it's not a question of either/or.

[TheLolGuy]

Wow fantastic point. I had the same sense of him faking (that laughter really was ridiculous) but I couldn't figure this part out at the time. I knew his quote about slaughtering them like animals sounded familiar... In the movie, Anakin is distraught about his mother dying at the hands of the sand people, and at that time he is both in tears and full of rage. The similarity is eerie.

That aspect of the plot is similar to the one in Land Before Time, which Rodger wrote about as being his favourite movie as a child, when the Dinosaur loses his mother. That seems to be a common theme, the loss of the mother, perhaps the divorce and the sudden introduction of the fathers girlfriend contributed to that? It really struck me in his manifesto how neglected he was, how he was left to try to figure out issues he was having without any parental guidance or adult experience to learn from. For example, when he plays basketball and stretches his body out hoping to grow taller because he was unhappy about his height. He did this for quite some time and it sounds as if he had no adult to talk to, to help him resolve this trouble. Maybe this is why all these videos seem so childish, that cartoonish villainous laugh, the quoting from Star Wars, he was still partially living in a child's world because he had never had the parental guidance necessary for a healthy development into the adult world.

[jpahmad]

Sympathy and moral responsibility don't belong in the same category so it's not a question of either/or.

 

Can we logically sympathize and condemn someone at the same moment?

 

 

I'll assume that any raitonal person would erradicate who Rogers was as an adult from their lives asap, however, Rogers the child should receive sympathy and intervention.  Would you agree?

 

For the recored, I don't sympathize with Rogers at all.  I only sympathize with the person he was as a child.  Can this be possible?

[Lians]

Can we logically sympathize and condemn someone at the same moment?

 

 

I'll assume that any raitonal person would erradicate who Rogers was as an adult from their lives asap, however, Rogers the child should receive sympathy and intervention.  Would you agree?

 

For the recored, I don't sympathize with Rogers at all.  I only sympathize with the person he was as a child.  Can this be possible?

 

Moral condemnation is a matter of ethics, and as far as mitigating circumstances are concerned, ethics only cares about choice. Elliot was an adult who had the choice to not murder and he chose otherwise; his actions are worthy of bottomless moral condemnation. Whether you feel sympathy for him is not an ethical issue, so I don't see why you can't both condemn and sympathise with him. The man was not a singularity of experiences, and as you noted, Elliot the child deserves sympathy.

[cynicist]

That aspect of the plot is similar to the one in Land Before Time, which Rodger wrote about as being his favourite movie as a child, when the Dinosaur loses his mother. That seems to be a common theme, the loss of the mother, perhaps the divorce and the sudden introduction of the fathers girlfriend contributed to that? It really struck me in his manifesto how neglected he was, how he was left to try to figure out issues he was having without any parental guidance or adult experience to learn from.

 

I agree and I remember that movie from my own childhood. I think it's also him pining for the caring mother that he never had, since he still had access to his biological mother after the divorce.