Canoe_Captain Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 I am not sure how much honesty I should bring to the table when talking to a friend that I would like to date. How much honesty is the right amount? Telling Sally all of my thoughts and emotions right away might just shy her away. What do you think? Are all the mentioned options even reasonable, or do some options seem not based in reality? My primary goal is to find out if Sally is interested. Should honesty be my primary goal instead? Option 1: Stop my dating altogether until I have finished a therapy and have a stable income. (At the moment I am preparing to earn money within 2 month and restart my search for a therapist within 2 month.) Option 2: Suggest to Sally to have a date, since we are both single at the moment. Option 3: Tell Sally right away half of the truth in a mail or call: “Because of your virtuousness and our perceived compatibility I would like to date you. What do you think?” Option 4: Tell her all of the truth in a mail or call: That I had feelings for her for 9 years. That in the past I also felt a sexual attraction that is more or less gone at the moment but I hope might redevelop if we spend more time together. At the moment I would prefer Option 2. Here is the background: 9 years ago I was put into the friend zone by a girl, lets call her Sally. Sally and my age is both 28. We first met in school when we were ca.17 years old. We stayed in contact all those years as friends, which I take as an indication that our interests and communication capabilities are compatible. When I went abroad after the 13th year of school in 2005, she gave me a CD “mix tape” with handmade cover and such. 9 years ago I felt, like I was not in Sally’s attractiveness league and ca. 2 years into our friendship the sexual attraction I felt in the beginning, wore more or less off. I guess that is just how human hormones work, that sexual attraction does not last forever. During the last 9 years we met ca. 1 to 6 times a year and went out together or just had an evening talking and watching TV. Two times we visited each other outside of our common hometown including stay overs and sightseeing. Motivated by Stefan and RTR I analyzed all my friendships and found her to be a virtuous friend. Thus I involved her in my quitting of my 22-month-relationship with my ex-girlfriend “Tina” 3 month ago. Tina had low amounts of self-knowledge and no motivation to work towards more self-knowledge. I called Sally two times, each call lasted 30 minutes, at pivotal moments of the break-up for advice and feedback. 2 weeks ago Sally told me in a 160 minute phone call that her current 34 year old long-distance boyfriend had quit the relationship after a 4-month-relationship. I regard Sally to be virtuous, since she possess self-knowledge, is emphatic towards other humans and is honest. I am also attracted to Sally's non-virtuous characteristics. For example: she seems intelligent, she seems to have had a happy childhood where she was able to learn to express emotions. We are able to keep up interesting conversations for hours. Sally is no girly girl: she goes camping, plays guitar etc. Sally asked me to send her a link to Stefan's videos during our last call. We talked about me wanting to get therapy and she already having had tutoring similar to therapy. We talked about the importance of honest true communication in relationships. We also talked about that if you possess no self-knowledge you might choose unconsciously partners that enable you to reenact your childhood traumas. At the moment we live 740 miles apart, so we meet maybe 3 times a year. Within the last year Sally and I both had some pivotal moments: She dropped out of University when writing her PhD thesis and now works as a sales representative. I discovered FDR, stopped pursuing an international business bachelor degree and now prepare to work as a self-employed photographer. Just a side note: Sally is definitely a person that I should not meet anymore when I am in a relationship with another woman. I remember Stefan once saying that when in a committed relationship (e.g. marriage) you should not frequently spent a lot of time alone with possibly mutually highly attracted persons.
dsayers Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 How much honesty is the right amount? Telling Sally all of my thoughts and emotions right away might just shy her away. In the abstract, I would say that it depends on why you want to date a person. If you're looking for somebody to have a life and/or children with, you'll want for it to be based on honesty. If you're just looking for companionship or sex, you'll still want to be honest enough to determine if they're looking for somebody to have a life/children with. Specifically with regards to somebody you've known for nine years, I can't think of any reason to not be honest. While it is true that being honest about wanting more from a friend than just friendship could push them away, not being honest about it is just going to torture you. If you're going to be tortured either way, I'd rather have the peace of mind that I did everything I could.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 Whatever you do, the talk must happen face to face. I am not sure how much honesty I should bring to the table when talking to a friend that I would like to date. How much honesty is the right amount? Telling Sally all of my thoughts and emotions right away might just shy her away. What do you think? Are all the mentioned options even reasonable, or do some options seem not based in reality? My primary goal is to find out if Sally is interested. Should honesty be my primary goal instead? Option 1: Stop my dating altogether until I have finished a therapy and have a stable income. (At the moment I am preparing to earn money within 2 month and restart my search for a therapist within 2 month.) You're making it seem as though you are not complete enough to do this. Although commendable, nothing is stopping you from simitaneously dating her and going to therapy. This route might be a way to procrastinate. Option 2: Suggest to Sally to have a date, since we are both single at the moment. Yes, just ask her to go out like you normally would as friends but with the express purpose that you're alone. Option 3: Tell Sally right away half of the truth in a mail or call: “Because of your virtuousness and our perceived compatibility I would like to date you. What do you think?” No. As great as those compliments are, mailing and calling lacks a certain amount of integrity that only a face to face talk can have. Option 4: Tell her all of the truth in a mail or call: That I had feelings for her for 9 years. That in the past I also felt a sexual attraction that is more or less gone at the moment but I hope might redevelop if we spend more time together. This would be too much to stomach for her. The whole 9 years thing. If you do want to tell her how you feel it has to be in person and if you wanna go gradual you say, "I think I'm developing feelings for you. I don't know what they mean right now, but I would like to spend more time with you so we can explore our options." At the moment I would prefer Option 2. Here is the background: 9 years ago I was put into the friend zone by a girl, lets call her Sally. Sally and my age is both 28. We first met in school when we were ca.17 years old. We stayed in contact all those years as friends, which I take as an indication that our interests and communication capabilities are compatible. When I went abroad after the 13th year of school in 2005, she gave me a CD “mix tape” with handmade cover and such. 9 years ago I felt, like I was not in Sally’s attractiveness league and ca. 2 years into our friendship the sexual attraction I felt in the beginning, wore more or less off. I guess that is just how human hormones work, that sexual attraction does not last forever. During the last 9 years we met ca. 1 to 6 times a year and went out together or just had an evening talking and watching TV. Two times we visited each other outside of our common hometown including stay overs and sightseeing. Motivated by Stefan and RTR I analyzed all my friendships and found her to be a virtuous friend. Thus I involved her in my quitting of my 22-month-relationship with my ex-girlfriend “Tina” 3 month ago. Tina had low amounts of self-knowledge and no motivation to work towards more self-knowledge. I called Sally two times for ca. what's for ca.? 30 minutes at pivotal moments of the break-up for advice and feedback. 2 weeks ago Sally told me in a 160 minute phone call that her current 34 year old long-distance boyfriend had quit the relationship after a 4-month-relationship. I regard Sally to be virtuous, since she possess self-knowledge, is emphatic towards other humans and is honest. I am also attracted to Sally's non-virtuous characteristics. For example: she seems intelligent, she seems to have had a happy childhood where she was able to learn to express emotions. We are able to keep up interesting conversations for hours. Sally is no girly girl: she goes camping, plays guitar etc. Sally asked me to send her a link to Stefan's videos during our last call. We talked about me wanting to get therapy and she already having had tutoring similar to therapy. We talked about the importance of honest true communication in relationships. We also talked about that if you possess no self-knowledge you might choose unconsciously partners that enable you to reenact your childhood traumas. At the moment we live 740 miles apart, so we meet maybe 3 times a year. Within the last year Sally and I both had some pivotal moments: She dropped out of University when writing her PhD thesis and now works as a sales representative. I discovered FDR, stopped pursuing an international business bachelor degree and now prepare to work as a self-employed photographer. Just a side note: Sally is definitely a person that I should not meet anymore when I am in a relationship with another woman. I remember Stefan once saying that when in a committed relationship (e.g. marriage) you should not frequently spent a lot of time alone with possibly mutually highly attracted persons. Refer to my tiny speech at option #4. It's honest and open, but not overbearing to the point that your feelings hang in the balance to her. I think in this case, honesty IS common sense. Just be honest with her. Don't overthink it. It's easier said than done, but when it's all said and done, you'll realize it was pretty easy. And if she's a good friend, she'll let you down easy if she's not interested. Be prepared if she doesn't feel the same way, but keep in mind that your preference is to develop a romantic relationship with her. KNOW the goal but don't be so attached to it that all your happiness is riding on it. And yeah to riff raff off what dsayers said, as long as you've done your best and are honest on your part, that's all that matters. You've gotten it off your chest. You have no control over how she reacts to it, but you have full control over how you let all these bottled up feelings out.
Canoe_Captain Posted May 27, 2014 Author Posted May 27, 2014 If you're looking for somebody to have a life and/or children with, you'll want for it to be based on honesty. not being honest about it is just going to torture you. If you're going to be tortured either way, I'd rather have the peace of mind that I did everything I could. Thank you dsayers. Those words clarify the matter for me. As I am looking for somebody to have a life/children with, I should base it on honesty. @Rainbow Jamz Thank you for evaluating each option. It means a lot to me to get feedback on those thoughts. "what's for ca.? " I made a mistake and used German grammar and meanings in English. I meant to say: I called her two times, each call lasted 30 minutes.
TheRobin Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 Given that both of you just quit a relationship, do you think it might be beneficial for both of you to first figure out what went wrong there and what attracted you to such people, before starting a new relationship?
tjt Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 9 years ago I felt, like I was not in Sally’s attractiveness league and ca. 2 years into our friendship the sexual attraction I felt in the beginning, wore more or less off. I guess that is just how human hormones work, that sexual attraction does not last forever. First, a question. Why do you want to date her if you are not sexually attracted to her? The feeling that I got when reading your post is somewhat passive, like "well, she's pretty alright, so why not?" Don't know if that feeling is relevant yet, I'm just pointing it out. The scenario reminds me of that Pearl Jam song, "Better man" only with roles reversed. As far as answering your specific questions, I agree a lot with what Rainbow Jamz is saying... definitely face-to-face. It seems a bit cowardly and rude to spill all of your feelings onto a woman in writing where she is left alone to deal with it and doesn't have the help of your body language and facial expressions... it's even worse when she is caught off guard by the letter. Although, that's my perspective, maybe there are women who would be flattered by this? But to me it seems like you'd be chucking the ball into her court to make the next move... as if brushing your hands off and saying "whew, well, my parts done. Next step is up to you." But I still have a problem with how indifferent you sound about this person. Why are you wanting to speed up the relationship? You sound so uncertain yourself, why not just spend time together and see where it goes and if deeper feelings develop. Pursuing a romance sounds premature to me based on what you've shared in this post, but I'm really sorry if I've misunderstood... I hope you don't take offense to anything I'm saying.
Canoe_Captain Posted May 27, 2014 Author Posted May 27, 2014 First, a question. Why do you want to date her if you are not sexually attracted to her? As I regard her to be a virtuous friend since 9 year, I think I should date at least once before dating other women from OKcupid, that I have not met yet. I think I just entombed the sexual attraction. I always assumed that she was not attracted to me, so I forbade myself those feelings. I tried to shift my thoughts and feelings of sexual attraction to other woman, where I assumed more mutual attraction. I assume the shifting of thoughts and feelings has worked. "Love is an involuntary reaction to virtue." Since I regard her to be virtuous, I expect to fall in love with her if I get more exposure to her again. During the last years we only met ca. 3 times a year, that was enough to experience her emotional growth and spending a good time but only enough time to keep the emotional connection but not enough to strengthen the connection, I once before fell in love with a friend who I regarded virtuous in retrospect. Before I spent a one month trip with her she was just a nice pleasant friend, and afterwards I thought she is the girl of my dreams for the next 2 years. Due to me not communicating feelings and probably more reasons we stayed just friends. I would as well try to date that woman, but she got married in the meantime. The feeling that I got when reading your post is somewhat passive Yes I think my fears of the truth and my hopes for the truth cancel themselves out. It feels like doing my homework. Until a positive or negative result I just try to remain stoic. Like driving a car at high speeds, I fear that to much emotions endanger my clear thinking. To go with high hopes into the conversation with Sally would not necessarily help, or would it? (It is a serious question. I am not sure.) Given that both of you just quit a relationship, do you think it might be beneficial for both of you to first figure out what went wrong there and what attracted you to such people, before starting a new relationship? I think I was attracted by my last girlfriend Tina, because she was good looking and had low self-esteem like me. Unconsciously I might have also looked for somebody that would control and micro-manage my life, like my parents did. Furthermore I did not not honestly communicate my large frustrations with my studies, I did not even admit the full extent of my frustrations to myself. I cannot speak for Sally and if she is ready for a new relationship. Why are you wanting to speed up the relationship? You sound so uncertain yourself, why not just spend time together and see where it goes and if deeper feelings develop. Pursuing a romance sounds premature to me based on what you've shared in this post, but I'm really sorry if I've misunderstood... I hope you don't take offense to anything I'm saying. I agree in so far with you that I would like to explore, if deeper feelings would develop if we spent more time together. She is the most date worthy woman I know, so she currently gets more attention from me, since I am single at the moment.
Brentb Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 Probably option 1. What does Sally want and deserve in a partner? If there were a job posting called "Sally's boyfriend", would you meet all of the hard requirements listed there? At the same time, be honest. Tell her that you have a crush on her. That's sounds closer to the truth than "I want us to date". You know how you feel, but you don't know how it would be to date her.
MysterionMuffles Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 Given that both of you just quit a relationship, do you think it might be beneficial for both of you to first figure out what went wrong there and what attracted you to such people, before starting a new relationship? Valid...POINT!!! But either way let us know how it goes.
Canoe_Captain Posted May 27, 2014 Author Posted May 27, 2014 What does Sally want and deserve in a partner? If there were a job posting called "Sally's boyfriend", would you meet all of the hard requirements listed there? I expect Sally to make the assessment if I meet all of her hard requirements. I estimate I have a 30% chance of meeting her criteria. It is a new concept to me, to ask myself if a woman deserves me and if I fit her criteria. Did you apply this concept in your life and how did it go? I just apply for every woman that both fits my criteria and that I am most attracted too. I think Sally deserves a partner like me that has self-knowledge and is able to communicate his feelings. But either way let us know how it goes. On the 23rd I wrote to her on Facebook: Hi Sally, how are you? How was your business trip? Today 27th she answered me in the morning: "let's have a phone call within the next days, okay?" After considering the valuable feedback from all of you, I plan to suggest to Sally to spend some time together, like a two day city trip or something similar. Sally usually surprises me with her reactions and topics, so the call might go entirely different as expected.
Brentb Posted May 27, 2014 Posted May 27, 2014 I expect Sally to make the assessment if I meet all of her hard requirements. I estimate I have a 30% chance of meeting her criteria. It is a new concept to me, to ask myself if a woman deserves me and if I fit her criteria. Did you apply this concept in your life and how did it go? I just apply for every woman that both fits my criteria and that I am most attracted too. I think Sally deserves a partner like me that has self-knowledge and is able to communicate his feelings. It was an exercise in thinking of what her needs and desires would be. Most of your post was talking about you wanted, so I was just curious about what you know about what she wants. I do find out about the desires and values of a woman when I'm considering her as a possible partner.
Canoe_Captain Posted May 28, 2014 Author Posted May 28, 2014 It was an exercise in thinking of what her needs and desires would be. Most of your post was talking about you wanted, so I was just curious about what you know about what she wants. I do find out about the desires and values of a woman when I'm considering her as a possible partner. I understand now better what you mean. I have surprisingly little hard knowledge about her needs and desires. It's all conclusions till now, based on knowing her friends and family. Maybe it is my culture's way or my way that I usually talk about needs and desires towards a relationship only after it is established that we are thinking about having a relationship. Before we would start a relationship, we would probably talk honestly about our needs and desires in a relationship. Until now I had just glimpses, like that she would be okay with a long-distance relationship during the first months. We talked about that when we recapped her last relationship.
Wesley Posted May 28, 2014 Posted May 28, 2014 I am very interested as to why you think honesty is antagonistic to common sense in this example (at least evidenced for how you titled this thread).
Canoe_Captain Posted May 28, 2014 Author Posted May 28, 2014 I am very interested as to why you think honesty is antagonistic to common sense in this example (at least evidenced for how you titled this thread). Common sense can be understood in this context as the programming that I received in early childhood, to not talk about my problems to people outside of the family. To not communicate my feelings to anybody if I assume my feelings to be problematic to people in my environment. And to not be honest but to modify the truth to let myself and my family look the best. To leave out all supposedly dark, evil, problematic parts of my past. I just realized that my common sense is programming that is toxic to real, honest relationships. Only by your question I am getting to think about this, thank you Wesley. The second meaning of common sense to me in this context was to estimate rationally. To estimate that to honestly speak about the full truth to Sally in one instant "would be too much to stomach for her." like Rainbow Jamz wrote.
Canoe_Captain Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Hereby I let you know how it went so far. Thanks to all your feedback I was able to summon my courage and write to Sally in a hopefully improved way. We originally wanted to have a phone call. After that did not happen for 2 weeks, I wrote the mail. 2 days ago I wrote to Sally. Here is the translation of the email to Sally: ---------------------------------------- "Hello Sally The following message is probably going to surprise you, because it is completely unexpected. I am dating women from an online dating site currently. And sometimes I ask myself why I put all this work in filtering through this large amount of women, when I have already some nice female friends like you. Could you actually imagine having a date? I am very well aware that this idea might surprise you, but I still wanted to write it down. And unfortunately you seem to date men that are older than me If this message is too crazy for you, let's just pretend that I have never sent it regards, Canoe_Captain" ---------------------------------------- Sally took ca. 24 hours to answer me, this is the translation of her message: ---------------------------------------- "Hi Canoe_Captain, what a crazy idea! that was the first thought in my head. I have to admit I just had a long phone call with Martha* (*a shared friend) and we also talked about your "offer". I hope that does not bother you, but she knows us both well and was able to help me in my light bewilderment and overloading, by asking the right questions. Now to my second thought: Actually why not? I have already thought often that you are a really great guy, but I never connected that with a feeling of infatuation. That was until now the basic requirement to date somebody. But I am open to reassess my beliefs, as long we are honest with ourselves and tell the other one everything! So a basic readiness is existing. However some questions naturally remain open. For example how do you imagine the dating? It is not just around the corner, from my city to your city. I have to tell you that I am dating here in my city, and I am probably going to continue with it, as long as not deeper feelings develop somewhere. If that feels bad for you, it is naturally not possible.. So can we both retain this liberty for us? If that is too open and vague for you, I could understand that very well. But if we both approach it with the same openness, we actually do not have anything to lose! Do you know that, when sometimes everything feels so light, that thoughts unlock themselves to you, that make life seem much easier. I am having such a feeling currently. Would be nice, to keep that feeling for all life situations. So, now I am going to wait for you reply. Well, we can have a phone call in the next days. Oh and if you now do not see any value in this thing anymore, it goes for the same for this message: Just forget! Good Night” ---------------------------------------- (I already replied to Sally's message today) Do you have any thoughts?
tiepolo Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 'At the moment we live 740 miles apart, so we meet maybe 3 times a year.' I think this bit is quite important. You're not in a position to date, and if you're not even sexually attracted to her then I don't see the point of changing your relationship from whatever it currently is.
Recommended Posts