tjt Posted May 29, 2014 Posted May 29, 2014 Hey everybody, I was hoping to get some insight, tips and advice. My friend is getting married soon, and I'm wondering if she's ready, if he's the right guy, if she's going to be happy after 10/25/50 years, etc. There are a few problems though: (1) I don't know the guy very well... so all that I know about him is what she tells me, and (2) I'm having a bit of a mental block when it comes to seeing the truth about their relationship, even though she has told me that she appreciates blunt honesty and actually expects it out of people I feel I have been holding back. A little about them: She is a doer. She is very ambitious, super motivated, sets meaningful life goals, and is aware of their personal finances. Her self knowledge is slightly higher than average for someone who has never intentionally started the journey toward gaining self knowledge. Although there are gaps, she is now actively pursuing self knowledge, beginning with FDR content. She gets pleasure out of questioning the status quo. Her fiance on the other hand sounds like he is mostly lacking all of these qualities. He doesn't have goals, or has trouble setting them and she often finds herself setting his goals for him... almost driving him really. She finds herself telling him what to do because she feels he is incapable of taking action. And they don't share the same outlook on their personal finances (she wants to act when money is low, while he is not bothered by it). He is very uncomfortable questioning the status quo and avoids it. I want to focus on asking her questions that will help reveal the truth, but I don't know where to begin. What sort of questions do you guys think I should be asking her? I'd like to discover why she wants to be with him (like is it genuine love, or is it conditioning from her past to be with this type of guy) and understand their relationship better. Also, is there anything that you can see going on here that I don't? Let me know if you need more info, but I don't want to reveal too much about them. And by the way, I am a straight female so jealousy is not an issue here. I guess it might help to tell you a little about our friendship, too. We've been friends for a few years now. But it was on again off again because I had difficulty finding the time to build our relationship. We are now in a spot where we have the time to build this friendship, and I have decided to stop half-assing it. We have a great deal in common and really enjoy each others' company. She is one of the few people with whom I can talk openly about religion, politics, philosophy, economics, etc. We both contribute openly. I am working on being more honest with her when I disagree... she has never seemed to have a problem disagreeing with me. Like I mentioned earlier, she said she craves honesty and bluntness from other people. Although, I have seen her lose control of her emotions (as we all do, I'm sure) and take criticism very poorly... these instances were when she was under a lot of stress to begin with and the criticism set her over the edge. Oh and one more thing. Why do I care about cracking the nut? As a friend, I feel it is my duty to help her see where she is blind... as I expect my friends to do the same. Also, I plan to have her in my life for a long time, and I don't want to feel guilt if their relationship turns into hell... what could I say? "Oh, that is so sad, life's tough, and I'm sorry that I failed you as a friend and didn't see this coming... or did and lied to you about it."
Lians Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Why do you not know the man your friend is about to marry? I find this baffling... This is probably the most important decision in her life and she's not consulted you? Have you pressed her on it?
tjt Posted June 1, 2014 Author Posted June 1, 2014 That is a legitimate question, I'm also wondering why I don't know him better. When she and I get together, it's usually just the two of us. Our SOs are either at work or busy for the day. She has consulted me a little bit. For example, she confessed to me that she has doubts about their relationship. My response was a question... "Do you see these issues remaining over time, or do you think you will both be able to work on these together and overcome them?" Hopefully she has given this more thought since I brought it up, because she had a knee jerk reaction of saying that the issues can be overcome. Then I told her you can't change people, but rather you can understand their goals and help them work towards that. Her reply to that was, "he doesn't have goals." Which baffles me because he owns his own business, although it's not yet successful and I think she consults him frequently on how to run it. I don't know exactly how to press her better on this issue, which is what I was hoping you all could help me with. Your statement @Lians that "This is probably the most important decision in her life" would be a good opener for a deep conversation. I'm feeling very confused about them. Like there's some kind of a block for me, I guess. Any more advice?
Lians Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Well, has anyone done the same for you? Sat you down and grilled you about important decisions in your life? I'm not sure how much time you have to process this block but I'd approach the conversation with something along the lines of: "Hey Jane, I know it might be a little late but marriage is one of the most important decisions in one's life, and as my friend, I want to make sure you've thought everything through." Proceed by asking questions and listen carefully to what she has to say. This could both deepen and/or strain the relationship, but either way, you'll have clarity. You might find the following podcasts useful when it comes to preparing for the conversation (questions, attitude and so forth): (2:09:00) http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2711/shame-based-dna-death-wednesday-call-in-show-may-28th-2014 (1:38:15) http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/2693/feminist-straw-woman-attacks-sunday-call-in-show-may-11th-2014 A recommended read (marriage and motherhood chapters): http://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Our-Mothers-Didnt-Tell/dp/0684859599
cynicist Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 even though she has told me that she appreciates blunt honesty and actually expects it out of people I feel I have been holding back. This is important. I'll just note it for now and get back to it in a sec. Her fiance on the other hand sounds like he is mostly lacking all of these qualities. He doesn't have goals, or has trouble setting them and she often finds herself setting his goals for him... almost driving him really. She finds herself telling him what to do because she feels he is incapable of taking action. And they don't share the same outlook on their personal finances (she wants to act when money is low, while he is not bothered by it). He is very uncomfortable questioning the status quo and avoids it. Sounds like a trainwreck. I actually had to read your post twice just to be sure, but you haven't mentioned a single positive thing about the guy. I mean her actions show that she doesn't respect him at all, and according to you their values are the complete opposite, so why is she choosing him as a partner? We both contribute openly. I am working on being more honest with her when I disagree... she has never seemed to have a problem disagreeing with me. Like I mentioned earlier, she said she craves honesty and bluntness from other people. Although, I have seen her lose control of her emotions (as we all do, I'm sure) and take criticism very poorly... these instances were when she was under a lot of stress to begin with and the criticism set her over the edge. This brings up all sorts of questions for me. You both contribute openly, but you are 'working on being more honest when you disagree'? Isn't that the opposite of contributing openly? And why is it something that you have to 'work on'? And now she 'craves honesty and bluntless' but 'takes criticism very poorly'? Sounds like another contradiction to me. The last bit is hard to understand. Are you suggesting that when she is not under stress, she handles criticism very well? If so, why bring up the times that she is under a lot of stress when they are clearly outliers? And what is that fog machine doing in the corner? As a friend, I feel it is my duty to help her see where she is blind... as I expect my friends to do the same. I consider the fact that you are interested in helping a friend out of error to be a beautiful thing. How you are planning to do that when she appears hostile to criticism is a mystery to me. Since your question was around where you should start, I think my first quote would be perfect. Why have you been holding back? A conversation with yourself is the best way to help your friend. Once you find out the answer to that question, what to do next will be easy.
tjt Posted June 19, 2014 Author Posted June 19, 2014 Wow, I really appreciate your honesty, Robert (formally known as cynicist, right?). I was completely oblivious to all of my contradictory statements when I wrote the original post! I've really been thinking about it, and I don't know if I've made much progress, but here's what I think... I have a difficult time being honest with people when my honesty is counter to what they are saying, and could burst their bubble... or rather I have a tough time giving criticism (the true kind that Stefan recently spoke about). I believe this is because as I was growing up, I was supposed to "get along" with people. By this, adults meant that I had to agree with others to be able to get along with them. And getting along was held as a high "moral" standard. Specifically, I'm thinking about public education... you shouldn't disagree with your little friends because it might cause an argument (in reality, it will cause a situation that the adult child teacher will not be comfortable handling)... and you certainly cannot disagree with your teachers (again, it will make the uncomfortable because they don't know how to think). Otherwise, they will feel offended and you will no longer be a nice little girl/boy. Basically, disagreeing and criticizing someone is rude. Furthermore, I was never allowed to disagree with my father growing up. He was a loose cannon, and the best way to keep him from going off was to just agree with him (even if that meant throwing myself or even my sister under the bus). I realize too, that when my sister and I would disagree and an argument would ensue, we would both be punished. Disagreements seemed to always end in tears in my household (and believe me, it was never my dad doing the crying). Amazing though how this is such a double standard in that I couldn't safely disagree with people, however people could openly criticize me and disagree with me and I would just take it. And actually, the criticism that people were giving me was the malicious kind, yet I would still take it seriously! That's sad! So there's my problem, the way that I have been conditioned to view my own criticism and disagreements is as a bad thing--as if I'm just trying to cause trouble. This is the thought process of my false self, and really I guess a defense mechanism. So I'm working to overcome it, beginning by understanding that my opinions and thoughts are not malicious, they are just honest. Thanks again for pointing all of this out. I also realize that I am more vulnerable to giving malicious criticism because that is what was given to me as a child... so this requires an extra step of caution and analysis before I begin criticizing. More specifically related to my friend's engagement... Overall, I realized that a major reason that I haven't able to question her commitment to her fiance, and vice versa, is because my own commitment as a friend to her has still been wishy washy. That's a whole 'nother analysis that I need to do. But as an exercise to overcome my issues mentioned earlier, I really really started to ask her questions and I gave honest reactions to her responses. I also stated my own objectives and concerns... to find out if this is the best thing for them. I straight up told her that I can't say that I think they should truly be together nor can I say that this is a terrible idea and it won't last. She was very understanding. I also straight up told her that 10 years down the road I don't want to stand by calling myself a friend as the get divorced. I told her it would hurt me and I would have serious doubts about my own judgment. I told her that I would feel like a failed friend for not seeing the red flags. So it was really good for both of us. I think I started out feeling like I had to know: will this relationship work for them, yes or no?... and that I had to tell her whatever the answer was. Well, I don't know the answer, and that's the truth. And I realized it was important to at least tell her that. So I did, and we had a great long conversation. She discovered the roots of her own doubts about their relationship, and it gave her a lot more to evaluate from a self knowledge perspective. I know I didn't address everything that you pointed out, Robert. But I feel like this is a really good start!
cynicist Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yeah that's me, I'll have to make that more clear. I realize too, that when my sister and I would disagree and an argument would ensue, we would both be punished. I really hate this kind of lazy, destructive parenting. If conflict is so bad and troublesome, then why punish your children? Oh right, the rules don't apply to adults! I went through something similar and when I was much younger I remember thinking that there really must be something that makes us different, otherwise.... I'm really sorry that you weren't allowed to have your own thoughts/opinions freely expressed. So there's my problem, the way that I have been conditioned to view my own criticism and disagreements is as a bad thing--as if I'm just trying to cause trouble. This is the thought process of my false self, and really I guess a defense mechanism. Do you ever notice that happening to your own thoughts? Many times what we replicate out in the world is already being replicated within ourselves. I don't have a lot to say about this besides that it's something I've noticed in my life (around authority/conforming), and when I worked on it internally (basically not bullying myself into doing things) I could see my behavior change when I spoke with others. There is a recent call Stefan did that includes an important bit on disagreement, here is a link if you're interested. I'm glad to hear that you and your friend had a great, honest conversation about things.
MrCapitalism Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Do you find him sexually attractive (your friend's fiance)?
tjt Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 Do you ever notice that happening to your own thoughts? Many times what we replicate out in the world is already being replicated within ourselves. I don't have a lot to say about this besides that it's something I've noticed in my life (around authority/conforming), and when I worked on it internally (basically not bullying myself into doing things) I could see my behavior change when I spoke with others. There is a recent call Stefan did that includes an important bit on disagreement, here is a link if you're interested. Oh yeah, definitely. Sometimes it will stop me in my tracks. Now I will start to more closely observe my internal disagreements... it's not obvious at first that this could be happening, because you'd think you need another person to disagree with... but now I see that it makes sense, particularly between the false self and the real self. I'll have a listen to this call. Yeah that's me, I'll have to make that more clear. Glad to see you didn't make the same typo that I did! Do you find him sexually attractive (your friend's fiance)? Personally, no. That is a great question, though. I can see how others would consider him attractive, however I don't find myself thinking anything of it... he is quite a bit shorter than me (sorry, I don't know if that is a shallow opinion or a fact of biology that women are more attracted to men who are at least the same height as themselves). Additionally, he lacks the intellect that I am attracted to. So no, I am not sexually attracted to him. Probably also helpful to mention that I've been with my soul mate (haha, I know, using this word combination on this forum seems a little questionable, so I suppose I should byline it with "for want of better words") for six years now.
Lians Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 This is a rather advanced topic but I think it's important for you to consider it. If you as a kid got attacked whenever you expressed your criticisms towards your parents, then you'll almost certainly avoid criticising people as an adult. However, if you're aware of the fact that you avoid criticism because of your history and you still choose avoidance over healthy feedback, then you're treating your friends as if they're your parents. Do you think that's just? With knowledge comes choice... This is a subtle form of passive aggression that certainly doesn't make you a bad person, but over time, it erodes your capacity for genuine connection and feeds your false self. You're an adult now, if your friend attacks or dismisses you, you can move on with your life having learned a valuable lesson. Your survival is not on the line any more; that was a long time ago. I hope this makes sense!
MrCapitalism Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Probably also helpful to mention that I've been with my soul mate for six years now. Very helpful! Why aren't you guys married?
tjt Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 Very helpful! Why aren't you guys married? I believe marriage is either coercion by the state, religion, or your family. My partner does as well. Coercion by the state - there are tax benefits to being married... as if to say "get married, and we'll give you some more scraps, you slaves... but you have to pay us for a piece of paper first, fools" Coercion by religion - you must be married in order to live together and get it on, otherwise you will burn in hell for eternity Coercion by the family - you gotta get married, because it's tradition... I am defooed and he does not serve the desires of his family Being an anarchist and atheist, I've never heard a good argument for getting married... not even from Stef (I've heard him say two reasons for marriage -- one being that if one person decides to move locations, you must follow them because you are married. Not convincing at all. And my apologies, but I can't remember the second one I've heard from him, but I remember not being convinced.) My partner and I have made verbal commitments to one another multiple times, and we demonstrate our commitment every day. There is no need for us to be married at this point in time. Really, the only reason we have been able to come up with in support of marriage, is that when we start having children we would want to make it easier on them so that they don't have to explain to people why their parents are not married. But yet again, this is not a very good reason to get married... to make it easier for your child to conform. My strongest argument for marriage is the symbolism of taking his name. It represents something that is voluntarily shared, and symbolizes a family unit that is tied together. But symbolism again is not based in virtue or rationality. Our outlook on marriage is always evolving and we talk about it often, but it just doesn't make sense right now. What about you... can you think of any solid, rational reasons for marriage? This is a rather advanced topic but I think it's important for you to consider it. If you as a kid got attacked whenever you expressed your criticisms towards your parents, then you'll almost certainly avoid criticising people as an adult. However, if you're aware of the fact that you avoid criticism because of your history and you still choose avoidance over healthy feedback, then you're treating your friends as if they're your parents. Do you think that's just? With knowledge comes choice... This is a subtle form of passive aggression that certainly doesn't make you a bad person, but over time, it erodes your capacity for genuine connection and feeds your false self. You're an adult now, if your friend attacks or dismisses you, you can move on with your life having learned a valuable lesson. Your survival is not on the line any more; that was a long time ago. I hope this makes sense! Absolutely not, it's pretty messed up. Thank you for this analysis, I completely agree. It makes me sad that I was driven to this point, but I certainly take responsibility now. Being aware of this dysfunction is a major step, and now with that awareness I am taking actions to change. The specific steps I'm taking, and seem to be working, are: Not being ashamed to ask genuine, honest questions... or questions that might cause people to feel 'defensive' Maintaining a sense of curiosity in my discussions with people, rather than following their lead (meaning that I normally read into the way they are saying something... if they feel good about it, then I must feel good about... if they feel bad, then I must feel bad)... so, instead I am trying to remain unbiased and listen to my own internal reactions to what they are saying rather than jumping on their bandwagon and blindly agreeing with or reinforcing what they are saying. Hopefully that's not confusing. Being patient with my own responses and reactions (really just skipping that step of automatically jumping on their bandwagon... slowing down and contemplating what is actually being said and how I actually feel about it) The benefit of these steps, also, is that it will make it easier for me to identify case by case if: I am the source of my dishonesty - in which case, I would be able to resolve by taking these steps to achieve acting on my real self They are the source of my dishonesty - in which case, they are not responsive and respectful of my true self, and then I will be able to recognize that they are toxic to be around... and are an obstacle to my own improvements... therefore I'd be able to move on from them Sorry if this all seems fluffy, hopefully it's clear. Again, I really appreciate your honest analysis. It's good to hear that truth in words that are different from my own. Thanks again, Lians. Feel free to keep sharing your thoughts, I find them valuable.
Matt H Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Totally off your original topic, but I'm glad someone else has made that stand against marriage. To an atheist, getting married makes as much sense as celebrating Yom Kippur. To an An-cap, getting married makes as much sense as applying for a job at the post office. I've believed that very deeply for the last few years and stated my views upfront to any woman I dated regularly. I found it odd that so many people in the anarchist and athiest circles still go grab a gubment license to celebrate their holy matrimony.
tjt Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 Well, last time I left this thread, I nearly had a breakdown, thinking that I know nothing about friendship. That may still be the case, but I wanted to report that I've made some major progress, and so has my friend. Last time I wrote to you all, I talked about how my friend and I had a very long conversation where I focused on maintaining enough curiosity to ask a lot of questions without assuming anything. I was also completely honest about my outlook on her relationship with the guy (I didn't know whether it would work or it would fail). Well, she has given me an update and it turns out that due to our conversation, she thought and thought about her own doubts. She was able to identify the source... that she felt trapped and out of control when it came to their finances (powerless I guess). She was projecting these feelings onto their relationship. And it's quite amazing, she came up with a legitimate solution, she's become co-owner of their business and runs the areas that play to her strengths (planning, customer service, etc.) so that her fiance can play to his strengths (doing the actual production). She said the impact has been hugely positive already. I just wanted to share the good news, I was overwhelmed with joy when she told me all of this. Hopefully I'm not overreacting and actually missing something. Anyways, I feel that it was a success for everyone involved. Just wanted to share. Thanks everyone for asking questions and providing advice. A small victory, but the effort must continue.
MrCapitalism Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 She is a doer. Her fiance on the other hand sounds like he is mostly lacking all of these qualities. He doesn't have goals, or has trouble setting them and she often finds herself setting his goals for him... almost driving him really. She finds herself telling him what to do because she feels he is incapable of taking action. She came up with a legitimate solution, she's become co-owner of their business and runs the areas that play to her strengths (planning, customer service, etc.) so that her fiance can play to his strengths (doing the actual production) This doesn't sound like any sort of solution at all. If the problem was that he lacked ambition and she was setting his goals, then it doesn't make sense to get ambitious with the business and set goals for him. That's not a solution, that's just continuing the dysfunction. I still don't understand what the problem is. Is it a problem that he isn't ambitious, and she is? Is there some legitimate reason this is a problem.. or is it a cultural thing (eg... "the guy should be more ambitious and lead the girl"). If she wants some guy that has a drive to succeed, why is she dating this guy? I hope she doesn't think that she's going to magically change him. This was the delusion that nuked my nuclear family, no sense letting the process repeat itself.
tjt Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 The problem is that she was feeling uncertain and maybe a bit annoyed by his "lack of motivation" as she would have described it, which turned out to be him struggling to bring in business... late responses to clients, not following up with leads, etc. This was her scapegate. However, she realized that this was only occurring because he was spreading himself thin and he really didn't enjoy that aspect of his business (getting jobs, doing paperwork, calling clients, etc.). And her problem was misplacing her unease, and expecting him to step up and successfully juggle multiple balls... essentially suck it up and get the shit done... or in another dreaded word, she expected him to change. Once she began to investigate what the true source of her distress was (having false expectations of her man and expecting him to change to make her feel better), and once she began to empathize with him and accept his true self (that he prefers doing the actual work, not all the planning and customer relations and job finding, which was stressing him out and overwhelming him), then she was able to create and fill a complimentary role to his. It's teamwork, rather. So instead of setting false expectations of him, they've worked out a situation where he is able to do what he does best and she is able to do what she does best, and for this reason their relationship and their business are already more successful. Does this help, or are you still having doubts, Mr. Capitalism? Please share.
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