How to identify a manipulator?

[ThoughtDogFrank]

Hello, I am new to FDR. I'm not sure how relevant this is to this specific group of the forum but I am currently dealing with my manipulative father. He claims to love me and my siblings, but has no interest in what makes us happy and quickly diverts the conversation whenever it begins to get to the truth of our feelings. He is quick to become offended, and is really very irrational to the point when I bring up problems in the household caused by him he proceeds to attack my education as if it were something that has made me the irrational one. "look at the smart guy over here, he has the answers for everything". I am currently and have been involved in a family business with him by force and persuasion since I was 7, it was never my choice to help him, and it often left me beaten, broken emotionally and instilled a dangerous self hatred within myself that I have only recently began to overcome.

 

 Im sorry to be blurting my issues out on the forum, but lets make this less personal to me and I was wondering if you guys out there, you honest, good people, could help me identify when it is that I am being manipulated. What are the characteristics of manipulators? Why are do they chose to be manipulators? Is there something in their voice or the kind of words they use that indicate a manipulation (hidden agendas and motives)? How can one avoid being manipulated for being passive and caring??

 

I am stuck in a difficult position, and I would really appreciate your help in learning how to not be used anymore for being someone who is kind and wants to help everyone. it is my greatest strength but also my weakness, im tired of being exploited for wanting to be good. 

[giancoli]

Hello, I am new to FDR. I'm not sure how relevant this is to this specific group of the forum but I am currently dealing with my manipulative father. He claims to love me and my siblings, but has no interest in what makes us happy and quickly diverts the conversation whenever it begins to get to the truth of our feelings. He is quick to become offended, and is really very irrational to the point when I bring up problems in the household caused by him he proceeds to attack my education as if it were something that has made me the irrational one. "look at the smart guy over here, he has the answers for everything". I am currently and have been involved in a family business with him by force and persuasion since I was 7, it was never my choice to help him, and it often left me beaten, broken emotionally and instilled a dangerous self hatred within myself that I have only recently began to overcome.

 

 Im sorry to be blurting my issues out on the forum, but lets make this less personal to me and I was wondering if you guys out there, you honest, good people, could help me identify when it is that I am being manipulated. What are the characteristics of manipulators? Why are do they chose to be manipulators? Is there something in their voice or the kind of words they use that indicate a manipulation (hidden agendas and motives)? How can one avoid being manipulated for being passive and caring??

 

I am stuck in a difficult position, and I would really appreciate your help in learning how to not be used anymore for being someone who is kind and wants to help everyone. it is my greatest strength but also my weakness, im tired of being exploited for wanting to be good. 

Hi. I'm just a guy not any expert, on the contrary I'm struggling with this kind of things myself, that is how to understand humans, emotions and manipulation.

I know of one good book though that I recommend, it's called ''who's pulling your strings''. It's very insightful. There's also a book called wolf in sheeps clothing, but it is not that insightful compared to the prior.

Would be interesting to know the overall pattern of which emotional tricks is mostly used by women and which is mostly used by men. 

My father tended to play on my ego and need for approval and admiration. He would say when I was into exercise for example, you are so strong and fit I think you might handle this. I also notice that when he says something I do for him doesn't matter that much, for some reason I get extra eager in doing it perfectly.

Also belittling and using sarcasm as you mention I'm used to. So you feel so smart etc. Making you feel small and insecure. Just "answering" something you say by silence and a smirk is another one.

 

Maybe you should call in to stefs show, he's so clever to brake down these kinds of problems.

[cobra2411]

 giancoli, thanks for the book link, I'll have to check it out. To both of you I'm sorry for what you are going though, I have similar battles and it's been very difficult for me. 

 

For me the tell-tale phrase that now sets off alarms is "if you care" or something similar. "If you really loved me you would..." "If you care about your family you would..." "I thought you were someone who cared about..." 

 

The other one is where they tell you who you are. "I know you really care about X, that's why I'm surprised that you're acting this way. I really thought you would want to do..." 

 

There are other things too that I've dealt with like being told I was no good and was lucky to have the abuser in my life. If I wasn't careful they'd leave and I'd be all alone to fail. 

 

When I started to point out the manipulation I was made to look like I was crazy and was acting out. It would also trigger fights, basically to beat me down - don't want to do that again... 

 

I know in my case with my mother, her mother is exactly the same person and I'm told my great grandmother was no peach either. So I think it's passed down and after a while it just becomes normal. My mother had her sister and her sister was the one held up on an alter and my mother did all the wrong. My grandmother even told her she tried abortion home remedies of the time because she didn't want my mother. I feel bad but my mother knows better and should not continue the cycle. I'm not. So it's learned but it also takes an easier hold in a damaged mind I believe.

 

FDR 311 comes to mind, but I may have it confused with another one. Basically it says to be completely venerable with you family and let them know how you feel. If they crap on you then you have your answer and you have to protect yourself. FDR 1927 talks about finding a therapist, which I would recommend to make heads and tails of this. I'm the last person to ever think I would need or want a therapist, but I went like 6-8 times to figure everything out and get some external perspective. 

[dsayers]

A manipulator is somebody who is deliberately dishonest with you for the sake of altering your behavior. In the example of the "smart guy with the answers to everything," unless you are talking about everything simultaneously (literally impossible), then this is a very large exaggeration. In that case, the dishonesty is for the sake of shaming you, instilling self-attack, discouraging correction, etc.

 

I'm in a similar boat. My father is highly manipulative, drafted me into the family business at a young age, and isn't at all interested in me as a person. Only the effects of my labor. The part the drives me nuts the most is his inconsistency. I'm sorry that yours is capable of saying stuff like that to you

[Wuzzums]

I often find it useful how people phrase their questions when asking for favors. If they flat out ask for a favor pointing out you have nothing to gain from it or anything, then I'd say they're not manipulative. If they ask for a favor and suddenly all these obligations you didn't agree to pop out of nowhere, then I would say they're being manipulative. The former is presented as a choice, the latter as a command.

[shirgall]

There's a book by Albert Bernstein called Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry that covers a lot of the identification aspect.

[cobra2411]

A manipulator is somebody who is deliberately dishonest with you for the sake of altering your behavior. In the example of the "smart guy with the answers to everything," unless you are talking about everything simultaneously (literally impossible), then this is a very large exaggeration. In that case, the dishonesty is for the sake of shaming you, instilling self-attack, discouraging correction, etc.

 

Yes. 

 

Manipulator: "Can you do me a favor and change the flat tire on my car?"

Me: "Not right now, I'm super busy with work, maybe later?"

Manipulator: "Just great. Thanks for ruining my hole day. I can't believe how selfish you are. Thanks alot, I'll get someone else do to it." 

 

This is pretty simple, but the dishonesty is that you had anything to do with the flat or any obligation to fix it. Therefore, since you had nothing to do with it and no obligation to fix it you in no way ruined their day. But, you end up feeling like crap because you now believe you're selfish... 

[tjt]

A manipulator is somebody who is deliberately dishonest with you for the sake of altering your behavior. In the example of the "smart guy with the answers to everything," unless you are talking about everything simultaneously (literally impossible), then this is a very large exaggeration. In that case, the dishonesty is for the sake of shaming you, instilling self-attack, discouraging correction, etc.

 

I'm in a similar boat. My father is highly manipulative, drafted me into the family business at a young age, and isn't at all interested in me as a person. Only the effects of my labor. The part the drives me nuts the most is his inconsistency. I'm sorry that yours is capable of saying stuff like that to you

 

I agree with this definition. I am also going to look into the books that giancoli recommended to hear what the experts have to say. I am not an expert, although I also have a super manipulative father and sadly my sister is a photocopy of him.

 

You have to realize that expert manipulators do not want you to know when you are being manipulated, because that would mean they have failed. (In my experience, they tend to look at interactions with people as win-lose scenarios only, and will do everything they can to avoid "losing.") They are experts at distracting you from what's really going on in the situation. So it's very difficult to recognize in the moment when you are being manipulated, but it's possible with practice and a lot of self empathy.

 

A few things helped me to understand when I was/am being manipulated:

 

1. Tuning into my emotions - if you feel guilt, shame, personal disappointment... you're probably being manipulated, as you won't benefit from these emotions, but someone else is trying to.

 

2. Being patient with myself, allowing myself time to come up with a response - manipulators tend to put so much pressure on you, that you feel you have only a few seconds to respond to them or shit's going to hit the fan. When you're not sure if someone is manipulating you or not, it can help to stall the conversation... "hmm... I'll need to think about that," "I see what you're saying, but I'll need to get back to you." If you use this tactic, it buys you time to analyze the situation and formulate a response that is in your best interest.

 

3. Analyzing recent and historical situations with the manipulator - journaling helped me tremendously to decipher past instances of manipulation... where in the moment I really felt like I was in the wrong, but upon further examination I was being manipulated. When you are doing this, you have plenty of time to break down the situation. I also learned common tactics that my father uses, and I was able to fully understand the red flags. That way, when it was happening again, I could recognize it sooner, and eventually I was able to respond in a way that shut him down (getting to this point took a lot of time, time that I spent away from my father). To get your analysis started, describe the situation in detail, and ask yourself: "how did it make me feel?" "what was my dad trying to get out of it?" "what exactly did my dad do to manipulate my emotions?" "how could I have reacted to protect myself?", etc. Write all of this down, it will help you get very detailed and recognize patterns.

 

4. Making sure I spent adequate time away from the manipulator - like I said earlier, a manipulator is always trying to fool you, so you need time away from them to be able to break their hold on you and start to see clearly. I moved out of my dad's house, but if you are not able to do this, spending an hour or two each day alone in your room focusing on analyzing everything may be enough to break their hold on you so you can begin to think clearly.

 

And I wanted to share one observation - these people, although they have no empathy for you, have trained you to have a HUGE amount of empathy for them, and minimal empathy for yourself. Your personal comfort and happiness should be your number 1 priority. These are just some things that helped me, I hope you can find something useful in all of this.

 

By the way, I'm sorry for this situation. It isn't right that you were raised by such a man, and I wish you the best as you figure out how to overcome it.

[ThoughtDogFrank]

Wow!! So much positive feedback! Thank you so much, this truly is a great place. I have a lot think about. That last comment about the empathy is totally relevant. I have an enormous capacity to understand his emotions and his needs but like you were saying TJT, I've always found it difficult to empathize with myself to realize my own needs, and my own emotions as being important.

 

- it's funny how the elderly escape that objective charecterization, everyone just kinda assumes that they are sweet people and that when they were young they were also kind ( I know for a fact that my father although was abusive to me, his father was extremely physically abusive, which included degrading him, physically assaulting him regularly, and was also himself emotionally cold and really only used my father for work. My grandfather grew up in Fascist Italy during WW2, not too hard to see the corruption and manipulation of the state there).

 

-I've been to therapy and a psychiatrist briefly in the past, it was revolutionary in helping me begin to see myself as not useless. I went during a time when I was very depressed balancing between being suicidal. The therapist basically said that it was a toxic relationship, my dad would not change unless he had to, and that I should cut ties as far as the business goes. I'm considering going back to therapy for the 6 free sessions seeing as it has been 2 years now. Philosophy has been my substitute for therapy and it does help but sometimes you just need to speak to another person and get some advice, seeing as that I am finding myself in the same traps over and over again, being or atleast feeling used, not just with my dad but with customers and other people.

 

-many of the questions are framed in a choice like manner but when someone takes him up on the I have a choice, the conversation gets quickly changes back to the things that he prefers us to do.

 

- I was considering doing a call in show, but I'm a little worried talking about this on air with so many people listening to my issues. If I were to call in, would I have to use my real name or could I remain anonymous?

 

- thank you for the book suggestions those sound great, I'll have to buy some of those.

 

For all of you out there dealing with manipulators, I wish the best to you in maintaining integrity in your virtue.