The taking away of favorite toys

[James Dean]

I was watching the truth on Elliot Roger video last night, and I found some of the details of Roger's past striking me. Early in the presentation, while reading parts from Roger's 'manifesto,' we hear that when Elliot expressed his dislike for a soup, he was forced to eat it. Stef comments how, for Elliot, expressing a preference equals sadistic abuse, and how that was very harmful to a him. This called to mind something traumatizing, that I don't really like to think about.

 

When I was young, perhaps from the age of 4 until well into adolescence, my parents would take things that they had given me, for christmas or birthdays or whatever, as punishment. They made sure to take the things I really liked to play with and hold then hostage until I 'behaved.' They often justified their right to do this by saying "we bought it, we can take it away." This was so frustrating as a kid, I remember my face being flushed, eyes welling up, sitting in my room just boiling over with pain and disgust. Even as a small child I thought this was incredibly unjust, and I lived with this sort of feeling that I 'had' nothing, everything was my parents and I was simply tolerated to live there. As I got older, I was rewarded with gifts of higher value, (instead of legos and lincoln logs it was electric guitars, video games, cellphone etc) but I felt I was only given these things so they would have leverage with me when I did something they didn't like. 

 

I've had a hard time connecting with myself as a child as I seemed to have spent my whole childhood trying to dissociate from the world, but for some reason these memories stick out to me more, and I have been really upset in general recently...

 

Have you guys experienced similar things as kids? how did you handle it? 

[MysterionMuffles]

reminds me how they justify that kind of treatment analgous to "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh"

For me it was a little different. I would say I want something and my mom would say we couldn't afford it, yet I'd go with her shopping, seeing her buy $100 worth of groceries, some of which we didn't even need like junk food. Then once I got whiny enough I finally got what I wanted and it would tarnish my desire for it, yet I would binge on my usage such as a new video game. It was my way of making up for "lost time," when I could've gotten it earlier and shit.

[Ruben Zandstra]

I remember similar things, it happened quite a few times. One that stands out is where my Dad not only told me cordially that my audio-set was confiscated until further notice, but that I was to take it up to the attic myself. This little conversation ended with mutual smiles and some rolling of eyes, which is a creepy thing to remember. I guess I was walking a thin line most of the time, knowing that accepting and showing false sentiments is preferable over being shouted at or worse.

 

In this case, another sick detail is that I had recently bought the audio-set myself, on my own as usual, with money that he had (let my mother) pay me for working in and around the farmhouse for weeks on end for a couple of bucks a day. Which was a previous punishment: I had to spend an entire summer being his slave.

 

It's really incredible thinking about how I've been gladly keeping my Dad in my life for thirty years after that, up until a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

 

[wittney]

My dad was a fan of taking away everything that I thought was important to me. Like when I was old enough to start keeping a diary, I'd write about how I hated him because of the way he treated me and for being drunk all the time and then one day he took it away from me. With the keys. I was terrified that he would kill me if he read it, and he took the keys so of course he was going to read it. He would take things away from me and ground me on top of that to put me in my place. It was always really horrible and I pretty much despise any parent who does that kind of shit to their kids. It's just another form of psychological warfare against your own children.

[jill m.]

"Taking away privileges" is way that parents can give a consequence for a behavior they don't like. Another consequence is physical abuse, so "taking away privileges" is seen as more enlightened.

 

Being forced to eat something one finds disgusting seems to me more like a physical punishment, conveniently for which there is no 'proof' - such as bruise or red mark would be proof. Being forced to kneel on salt is another example of a virtually invisible physical punishment.

 

In a perfect world, parents would be able to stay 'in tune' with their children, and both parents and children would be reasonable, consistent and care about each others' point of view.  Alas, it is more likely that parents still have so much of their 'unfinished work' to do, that the child is just seen as someone to use for the parent's self-aggrandizement in one way or another.

 

My parents spanked me.  My father killed himself when I was 12, after spending time in a state mental hospital.  My mother wanted a daughter who was athletic and social like she was, who valued power, looks and money. I was a great disappointment and it took years of expensive therapy for me to work through this.   A few years ago, when she was dying of lung cancer, I took care of her - cleaning her bottom and other such duties, and she was amazed that I would do this.  She said she would not have done that for me.  I was not at all surprised to hear this. 

[James Dean]

My dad was a fan of taking away everything that I thought was important to me. Like when I was old enough to start keeping a diary, I'd write about how I hated him because of the way he treated me and for being drunk all the time and then one day he took it away from me. With the keys. I was terrified that he would kill me if he read it, and he took the keys so of course he was going to read it. He would take things away from me and ground me on top of that to put me in my place. It was always really horrible and I pretty much despise any parent who does that kind of shit to their kids. It's just another form of psychological warfare against your own children.

 

Yeah I remember the groundings, the fear... it's strange how it seemed so matter of fact at the time... now i'm just repulsed by it. Sometimes I think I would have rather my father just beat the shit out of me... but he only hit me once and I don't really remember so I couldn't possibly make that comparison. 

My parents spanked me.  My father killed himself when I was 12, after spending time in a state mental hospital.  My mother wanted a daughter who was athletic and social like she was, who valued power, looks and money. I was a great disappointment and it took years of expensive therapy for me to work through this.   A few years ago, when she was dying of lung cancer, I took care of her - cleaning her bottom and other such duties, and she was amazed that I would do this.  She said she would not have done that for me.  I was not at all surprised to hear this. 

 

That sounds horrible, jill. Why did you take care of her when she was so distant towards you?

[Horseradish]

Taking things away was one of the main ways my parents would punish us. Yelling was the other. When they took things away I felt angry and helpless. It was mostly video games, computer, or TV. They would disconnect the cable or internet, or take away the console or the cables for it. Most of this was around doing the dishes or some sort of cleaning. It usually felt unfair, because none of us 4 kids would usually do the dishes, but we would all be punished.

 

I remember my mom saying how great we had it and that she had to work all day. And we had to go to school all day, and not get paid, and we were stuck in this house, it didn't feel like a fair trade-off that we had to do all the housework. And I am tempted to omit the detail that my dad was a stay at home dad, except for sort of part time work helping my mom's business. But dad, who is the parent who I tend to idealize, he wasn't working or going to school full time. So he fits into the "you kids should do a bunch of cleaning" picture even less.

 

I just remember I had no energy to do dishes. And no desire. I did have the desire to be helpful, but that was squashed whenever something was forced on me. I remember once I was about to do my homework, a very rare occurrence for me, and then my Dad came and told me to do my homework. And I didn't, I remember having a bit of an inner battle between my desire to do it and not wanting to do it now that he told me to.

 

And, the few times I used my innate desire to be helpful, like wash the dishes or something, Dad would sarcastically say something like "Oh you're doing the dishes this one time? Woooow that's soooo impressive".

 

I remember similar things, it happened quite a few times. One that stands out is where my Dad not only told me cordially that my audio-set was confiscated until further notice, but that I was to take it up to the attic myself. This little conversation ended with mutual smiles and some rolling of eyes, which is a creepy thing to remember. I guess I was walking a thin line most of the time, knowing that accepting and showing false sentiments is preferable over being shouted at or worse.

 

In this case, another sick detail is that I had recently bought the audio-set myself, on my own as usual, with money that he had (let my mother) pay me for working in and around the farmhouse for weeks on end for a couple of bucks a day. Which was a previous punishment: I had to spend an entire summer being his slave.

 

It's really incredible thinking about how I've been gladly keeping my Dad in my life for thirty years after that, up until a couple of years ago.

 

Wow Ruben, that sounds really twisted. I don't know the word for it, but it was probably emotionally confusing, and the mutual smiles and eye-rolling sounds like you had to stifle emotions and fake yourself a lot. Buying something with your own hard work, except that hard work was forced on you. And then you can't even keep the products of your forced labor.

 

How has this affected you? Did it change your relationship with money or work or anything like that?

[...]

.

[Liberty Bill]

It wouldn't be a punishment if it didn't bother you.  If it was a punishment in kind (as I tend to prefer), it has the potential to teach you empathy and as such not take or destroy the things of others.  If it's not in kind, I question the efficacy, but as long as it's proportional I see no problem with it.

 

I am not materialistic and as a child these punishments had zero effect on me.  I have always been perfectly happy just thinking about things and living in my mental world.  But I'm an odd duck

[corpus mentium]

It wouldn't be a punishment if it didn't bother you.  If it was a punishment in kind (as I tend to prefer), it has the potential to teach you empathy and as such not take or destroy the things of others.  If it's not in kind, I question the efficacy, but as long as it's proportional I see no problem with it. I am not materialistic and as a child these punishments had zero effect on me.  I have always been perfectly happy just thinking about things and living in my mental world.  But I'm an odd duck

  If I may quote a post of yours from another thread:  

I've never seen the point of "time-out".  I believe punishments should be in kind to the offense, and my kids have never successfully kidnapped or confined me or anyone else.  On reflection, it might be a suitable punishment if the child ignores a boundary, such as running across the road or out of the house without permission.  I personally have never had one of my kids do that, though.

 Does this mean that if your kids did in fact successfully confine a person in some way (intentionally or not) that you would then confine them to show them what it's like? If they dropped a toy on your toe and it hurt you (again, intentionally or not), would you drop something on their toe to hurt them back? How does this model to them any sort of desirable behavior? Do you think this would affect the parent/child bond positively or negatively? Is it even necessary to punish children in the first place? If yes, can your children punish you if you make a mistake?

[Liberty Bill]

  If I may quote a post of yours from another thread:  

 Does this mean that if your kids did in fact successfully confine a person in some way (intentionally or not) that you would then confine them to show them what it's like? If they dropped a toy on your toe and it hurt you (again, intentionally or not), would you drop something on their toe to hurt them back? How does this model to them any sort of desirable behavior? Do you think this would affect the parent/child bond positively or negatively? Is it even necessary to punish children in the first place? If yes, can your children punish you if you make a mistake?

I would consider a time-out n that case, yes.  I believe in punishment-in-kind. 

 

I make an exception for myself when I am the victim (of my children) because, while the NAP allows for punishment up to double the offense, it also includes room to forgive.  I let them know that they are misbehaving in such cases, but I also like to give the impression (not just to my children) that I am physically tough-as-nails and impervious to harm. 

 

I believe this philosophy does in fact model desirable behavior because according to the NAP (but not pacifism) punishment is legitimate when they are the ones to initiate aggression.

 

I believe it affects the parent/child bond positively, as it demonstrates consistency between principles and actions, and the true meaning of the NAP (which I do not believe is successfully modeled by not punishing the initiaton of aggression).

 

Yes, that would be reasonable.  I am the most consistent person I know when it comes to implementing the NAP but no one is perfect and it's certainly possible that I might err in that regard (though in practice I believe it's been many years since that has occurred). 

[Horseradish]

It wouldn't be a punishment if it didn't bother you.  If it was a punishment in kind (as I tend to prefer), it has the potential to teach you empathy and as such not take or destroy the things of others.  If it's not in kind, I question the efficacy, but as long as it's proportional I see no problem with it.

 

I am not materialistic and as a child these punishments had zero effect on me.  I have always been perfectly happy just thinking about things and living in my mental world.  But I'm an odd duck

 

If these punishments had zero effect on you, then why did you parents do it? If it was completely ineffective, what was the point?

I would consider a time-out n that case, yes.  I believe in punishment-in-kind. 

 

I make an exception for myself when I am the victim (of my children) because, while the NAP allows for punishment up to double the offense, it also includes room to forgive.  I let them know that they are misbehaving in such cases, but I also like to give the impression (not just to my children) that I am physically tough-as-nails and impervious to harm. 

 

I believe this philosophy does in fact model desirable behavior because according to the NAP (but not pacifism) punishment is legitimate when they are the ones to initiate aggression.

 

I believe it affects the parent/child bond positively, as it demonstrates consistency between principles and actions, and the true meaning of the NAP (which I do not believe is successfully modeled by not punishing the initiaton of aggression).

 

Yes, that would be reasonable.  I am the most consistent person I know when it comes to implementing the NAP but no one is perfect and it's certainly possible that I might err in that regard (though in practice I believe it's been many years since that has occurred). 

This post bothers me, but I'm not sure why. I know I disagree with it, but I'm not sure where.

 

After some thinking, I think this post bothers me because children are not full moral agents, their brains have not finished developing yet, so I don't think punishing them in kind is appropriate to their brain development.

 

The other thing that I knew bothered me right away was "I also like to give the impression (not just to my children) that I am physically tough-as-nails and impervious to harm." Why would you want to do that? You are not tough-as-nails and impervious to harm, why would you want to give your children an impression of yourself as an adult that is false?

[shirgall]

Ok, let's go to my situation. I've hired a tutor to come by once a week over the summer for the kids to improve their skills with. He's a special ed teacher who has experience with ADD. However, the kids don't want to work with him, because all I've asked is that they pick something they want to get better at and work with him.

 

The kinds of things I'm tempted to take away are the mindless distractions. The TV, the phone, the Internet.

 

When they come to the table with the tutor and just stare at the floor, what am I supposed to do.

 

(And, yeah, I'm tapering off the ADD meds for the summer, just to see what will happen. We've tried it before, but the kids are older now.)

 

I haven't listened to the recent unschooling cast yet, I suspect that will have something relevant too.

[Horseradish]

Ok, let's go to my situation. I've hired a tutor to come by once a week over the summer for the kids to improve their skills with. He's a special ed teacher who has experience with ADD. However, the kids don't want to work with him, because all I've asked is that they pick something they want to get better at and work with him.

 

The kinds of things I'm tempted to take away are the mindless distractions. The TV, the phone, the Internet.

 

When they come to the table with the tutor and just stare at the floor, what am I supposed to do.

 

(And, yeah, I'm tapering off the ADD meds for the summer, just to see what will happen. We've tried it before, but the kids are older now.)

 

I haven't listened to the recent unschooling cast yet, I suspect that will have something relevant too.

Sorry I'm a bit confused, you asked for them to pick something they want to get better at, but they don't want to do the thing they picked?

[shirgall]

Sorry I'm a bit confused, you asked for them to pick something they want to get better at, but they don't want to do the thing they picked?

 

They don't want to do anything!  It's quite frustrating. I managed to talk the daughter into it today.

 

My son (14) just doesn't want to do anything schoolish. He is going into High School, has a delayed development learning disorder (due to ADD), amd barely scraped by 8th grade.

 

My daughter (17) is a little better, and she has an independent study she has to do to make up for previous grades, so that at least is in motion now.

[Liberty Bill]

If these punishments had zero effect on you, then why did you parents do it? If it was completely ineffective, what was the point?

This post bothers me, but I'm not sure why. I know I disagree with it, but I'm not sure where.

 

After some thinking, I think this post bothers me because children are not full moral agents, their brains have not finished developing yet, so I don't think punishing them in kind is appropriate to their brain development.

 

The other thing that I knew bothered me right away was "I also like to give the impression (not just to my children) that I am physically tough-as-nails and impervious to harm." Why would you want to do that? You are not tough-as-nails and impervious to harm, why would you want to give your children an impression of yourself as an adult that is false?

You'd have to ask them, I don't know. 

 

Perhaps it's because I'm taking a position that you find emotionally disagreeable, but are having trouble dismissing the logical reasons I present for taking the position?  Just guessing, I don't know you.  I would be interested in knowing if you figure it out though!

 

Fair enough, I disagree.  I think children get confused when the punishment is not in kind, personally, and that punishment in kind is more naturally understandable.

 

Consider it an affectation.  Though I will say that while I'm not impervious to harm, I am "tough as nails" in the figurative sense.  Perhaps "stoic" is a better word, or even "Spartan."  It's a sports/masculine/warrior thing, not everyone can relate or gives a darn.

Ok, let's go to my situation. I've hired a tutor to come by once a week over the summer for the kids to improve their skills with. He's a special ed teacher who has experience with ADD. However, the kids don't want to work with him, because all I've asked is that they pick something they want to get better at and work with him.

 

The kinds of things I'm tempted to take away are the mindless distractions. The TV, the phone, the Internet.

 

When they come to the table with the tutor and just stare at the floor, what am I supposed to do.

 

(And, yeah, I'm tapering off the ADD meds for the summer, just to see what will happen. We've tried it before, but the kids are older now.)

 

I haven't listened to the recent unschooling cast yet, I suspect that will have something relevant too.

Maybe because it's summer and they feel entitled to goof off all day?  My oldest has that impression (though now that he's making money working with my wife and me at the food truck, he's starting to come around ).

 

Maybe because they'd rather you tutor them?  Just grasping at straws here, really.  I will say that I home-school my kids and it's great for developing that all-important bond.

[Horseradish]

You'd have to ask them, I don't know. 

 

It doesn't seem likely that someone would have done something that had zero effect. I don't find it believable that it had no effect on you. You also said that it wouldn't be a punishment if it didn't bother you, but you say it had no effect.

Perhaps it's because I'm taking a position that you find emotionally disagreeable, but are having trouble dismissing the logical reasons I present for taking the position?  Just guessing, I don't know you.  I would be interested in knowing if you figure it out though!

 

Fair enough, I disagree.  I think children get confused when the punishment is not in kind, personally, and that punishment in kind is more naturally understandable.

 

I was wondering that, if it bothered me because I couldn't argue with it. However I think what bothers me is what I said earlier, that children don't have the same level of moral responsibility, so I don't think they should be punished.

 

 

Consider it an affectation.  Though I will say that while I'm not impervious to harm, I am "tough as nails" in the figurative sense.  Perhaps "stoic" is a better word, or even "Spartan."  It's a sports/masculine/warrior thing, not everyone can relate or gives a darn.

This affectation is a lie to your children though.

They don't want to do anything!  It's quite frustrating. I managed to talk the daughter into it today.

 

My son (14) just doesn't want to do anything schoolish. He is going into High School, has a delayed development learning disorder (due to ADD), amd barely scraped by 8th grade.

 

My daughter (17) is a little better, and she has an independent study she has to do to make up for previous grades, so that at least is in motion now.

Leading up to now, what kind of things have they been forced to do in the past, or even right now? Are they forced to go to school? It does sound frustrating for you. What are they experiencing? Have you talked to them about it?

[shirgall]

 

Maybe because they'd rather you tutor them?  Just grasping at straws here, really.  I will say that I home-school my kids and it's great for developing that all-important bond.

 

I tried homeschooling and doing the tutoring myself, and they got more frustrated with me than anything. When it's telling stories at the dinner table it's one thing, but when it's buckle down and really master something it's another.

 

I won't claim to be perfect. I don't hit, but I was raised by a yeller, and I yell when I get angry too. Been really working on that.

Leading up to now, what kind of things have they been forced to do in the past, or even right now? Are they forced to go to school? It does sound frustrating for you. What are they experiencing? Have you talked to them about it?

 

Yeah, I am making them go to school, but at least it's a private one with a smaller class size. I tried homeschool and a online program called "Washington Virtual Academy" before settling on this.

[Liberty Bill]

It doesn't seem likely that someone would have done something that had zero effect. I don't find it believable that it had no effect on you. You also said that it wouldn't be a punishment if it didn't bother you, but you say it had no effect.

 

This affectation is a lie to your children though.

 

Hm, I find that people do all sorts of things that have no effect.  They fall into patterns and often don't really examine the outcomes or results.  I would caution against projecting a logical, rational approach to others...  there is no end to the foolishness of this world or the people who inhabit it.

 

Is it?  I wouldn't characterize it as such.  I don't tell them I'm invulnerable, in fact I'm not the sort to talk about my strengths.  I do like to demonstrate them, though, and toughness is a core aspect of my identity that is clear to anyone who knows me.  Play through pain and all that.  If you haven't been sick in years, if you never get injured despite massive collisions, if you shrug off cuts and hits and burns, if you knock out huge feats of endurance under stressful conditions, if you smile and keep your mouth shut in situations where others complain to no end, well, such actions speak for themselves, much louder than words.  Obviously I'm no Superman but as affectations go, I fail to see how this is harmful to my children in any way.  I believe fathers should be pillars of strength in the eyes of their family.

[Horseradish]

 

Yeah, I am making them go to school, but at least it's a private one with a smaller class size. I tried homeschool and a online program called "Washington Virtual Academy" before settling on this.

I wonder if these kind of obligations in their life make them resistant to doing school-related things. I know while growing up I was most of the time resistant to anything forced on me. I remember a time when I was about to do my homework, and then my dad came and told me to do my homework, and then I didn't, because I felt a strong urge to not do something just because someone told me to, I only wanted to do it as my own choice.

Is it?  I wouldn't characterize it as such.  I don't tell them I'm invulnerable, in fact I'm not the sort to talk about my strengths.  I do like to demonstrate them, though, and toughness is a core aspect of my identity that is clear to anyone who knows me.  Play through pain and all that.  If you haven't been sick in years, if you never get injured despite massive collisions, if you shrug off cuts and hits and burns, if you knock out huge feats of endurance under stressful conditions, if you smile and keep your mouth shut in situations where others complain to no end, well, such actions speak for themselves, much louder than words.  Obviously I'm no Superman but as affectations go, I fail to see how this is harmful to my children in any way.  I believe fathers should be pillars of strength in the eyes of their family.

You said "I like to give the impression" which is the same as lying. If your kids drops something on your toe, and it hurts, and you "give the impression" that you are " physically tough-as-nails and impervious to harm", then you are telling your kids that it doesn't hurt, which is the opposite of the truth, which is a lie.

[shirgall]

I wonder if these kind of obligations in their life make them resistant to doing school-related things. I know while growing up I was most of the time resistant to anything forced on me. I remember a time when I was about to do my homework, and then my dad came and told me to do my homework, and then I didn't, because I felt a strong urge to not do something just because someone told me to, I only wanted to do it as my own choice.

 

Sure, they resent being obligated, and they don't buy my explanations and stories about how I had to go through it too, but in the end they need these skills and they need to do the work to graduate, and by graduating they will have a great deal more options than if they don't.