Omega 3 snake oil Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 Stefan recently commented on the tendency of women to choose to be with men who are violent, abusive, or otherwise unsavory characters, stating that a lot of the violence in the world owes its existence to this tendency. I've had several experiences that have made me think about this in the past, but one quite recently that I think reinforces this idea more strongly than anything in my past.I recently met a young woman via Tinder--and please save your criticisms of the medium for another discussion--who is in many ways "out of my league", at least on paper, and at least compared to a lot of other women I've met and dated recently. She's tall, very attractive (not quite gorgeous but close), and about to complete her PhD. She's only in her mid twenties. She just accepted a teaching job at a good university starting in the fall. Her family is highly educated and successful. In short, she's what you'd call an Alpha female. Perhaps more tellingly, her favorite movie is Frozen (!).We've been chatty for about two weeks and have seen each other twice. These meetings have been less dates and more walking around the park at night. She's declined my requests for an actual date, i.e. food/drinks/activities/socializing, explaining she's not good looking enough for me and she doesn't want me being seen with her in public--I kid you not. When I got her to open up as to why she could possibly feel this way, she explained her last boyfriend was abusive, often verbally and once or twice physically, and that he used to call her fat and ugly.As soon as we touched her past relationship trauma she began to ask a lot about me and my intentions, e.g. wanting to make sure I'm a nice guy, would not take advantage of her, mistreat her, and so on. My response was roughly as follows:a) She did not deserve to be treated badly and I do feel for her;b) I have never been abusive toward a woman, especially one I have kept close company with;c) I do have my own questions about her character and her motivations, namely:d) She seems to be attracted to men who treat her badly.My take on her odd choice in men, which I have yet to share with her exactly, is that as an Alpha female she is somewhat limited in the number of men who appeal to her. To match up, let alone trade up, she'd need a man over 6'2" tall, very handsome, a PhD/similar level of education, holding a well respected position in society, and who comes from a happy/successful/intact family. So, her chances aren't the greatest. Knowing this, she allows the hypergamy instinct to run away with her, being drawn to men who act better than her. Men who put her in her place, mistreat her, make her feel small.No, she doesn't want to be abused. But she needs to feel the man she's with is above her, has power over her, is better than her. This is what the hypergamy instinct translates to in contemporary society, given most men no longer hold traditional provider/protector roles.In other words, the only way for the average or even above average male to impress an Alpha (or for that matter Beta) female is to play the game. Make her see value in you that's not really there. Treat her like she's beneath you. This sounds sick, and I believe it is, but it seems to be the case, at least based on my years of dealing with women and learning of others' experiences doing the same.Anywho, since I leveled with her re: her proclivity for abusive men, and how this does raise some concerns with me, namely her ability to understand her own needs, she seems to have lost interest. This I'm sure will prove to be a good thing.I'm not sharing this story just for the sake of sharing, but because for once I feel I have a partial answer to something that may have perplexed our own Wizard of Philosophy.
MMX2010 Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 I was going to post my own take on this, but I think this essay is highly relevant and interesting. (Read all of its parts, not just part one.) http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-the-middle-class-alpha-male-part-1/
Omega 3 snake oil Posted June 14, 2014 Author Posted June 14, 2014 I was going to post my own take on this, but I think this essay is highly relevant and interesting. (Read all of its parts, not just part one.) http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-the-middle-class-alpha-male-part-1/ "The successful middle-class alpha male is a mythical figure that can’t exist for any significant amount of time. Our society is specifically built to put most alpha behavior in check. The only types of men who can pull off any semblance of true alpha behavior in the West are men at the extreme lower end of the socioeconomic scale because they feel they have nothing to lose and men at the extremely high end of the socioeconomic scale because despite having something to lose they have more resources with which to get away with alpha behavior. This is a society that keeps the peace and maintains the status quo by keeping alpha behavior in check through various disincentives and punishments."yyyep.
MMX2010 Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 This is a society that keeps the peace and maintains the status quo by keeping alpha behavior in check through various disincentives and punishments."yyyep. I'll add some of my own opinions / insights. In modern societies, there have been only two ways in which women have been granted sexual freedom: (1) through voluntarily copulating with violent, protective men, and (2) through using the state/police to keep violent men in check. The first strategy has a much longer history than the second, which is so new that it could be called "anomalous". But the strangeness of the second type of society has not rid women of their need to feel "protected" and "safe". More interesting, in the first society (which was described so beautifully in the essay), a woman can just look at a man to determine whether he's alpha: she sees how he carries himself, and (most important!) how many men he commands. But in the second society, it's impossible for her to "just look at" a man to determine his alpha status. So, instead, she has to test him. And it is her need to test him that leads to the phenomenon called "game" - the special series of skills by which men learn to mimic alpha status in order to make her feel "safe" and "protected".
Liberty Bill Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 In other words, the only way for the average or even above average male to impress an Alpha (or for that matter Beta) female is to play the game. Make her see value in you that's not really there. Treat her like she's beneath you. This sounds sick, and I believe it is, but it seems to be the case, at least based on my years of dealing with women and learning of others' experiences doing the same. Why don't you just get shredded, stylish and educated yourself? That was how I chose to become worthy of an "alpha female", and it worked swimmingly (heck, I didn't even really get stylish, but it would probably help). Practically speaking, you might also try younger women. Even if they are your equal in looks, smarts, education, health, etc. they'll never be as experienced as you. My wife is equal to me in attributes (mostly) but being 9 years younger she always values my relatively greater wisdom.
Omega 3 snake oil Posted June 15, 2014 Author Posted June 15, 2014 Why don't you just get shredded, stylish and educated yourself? a) who says I'm not;b) you're missing my point in an embarrassingly fundamental way .... not every man who has reservations about women is suffering from low self esteem, "game denialism", can't get the girl, etc.The young woman in question told me I'm too good looking for her. That she has no chance with me, etc. I am convinced this is because there is something emotionally wrong with her, something missing, etc. Given how submissive she's been, I'm sure I could "get" her if I really wanted. But I'm looking for someone who has her shit together, emotionally speaking.This thread is about how society is turning out women who are taught to shun legitimate forms of masculinity and so they fall prey to illegitimate ones.
AlesD Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 I will throw in my thoughts on this topic. This are just my observations and can be totally off but maybe it opens the discussion up more. I would say that one of the things that women are attracted to this aggressive traits is that this what they get used to when they start dating. They get much more approaches from such guys then the nice guys which are usually more shy to approach. So in a way I would say they get trained to like this traits since this is the most available to them. This is would say is especially true if they don't have a good connection to their family and good examples. Also in todays culture sexuality is portrayed as very important so girls want to go into it as quickly as possible and often take the first guys that offer it to them. I remember also Stef talking in some show how important is the first sexual encounter and I think the first sexual encounter sets a bit of a template for what will be preferred in the future. Similar to the childhood defining the progress of your life. Another thing is that such men usually appear very confident because of their domineering aggressive attitude and we know how women always say they want confidence. I think what also needs to be added to the discussion about this is that the rape fantasy is one of the top fantasies for women I don't know is there is any good research on this. But I have noticed myself on OKCupid where they have a question if you would be willing to play out a rape fantasy with your partner that the women I looked at mostly answered yes to this question. To me this seems like it could be connected. It is possible that all of this are just biological drivers if we look at animals usually the most strong and aggressive male takes the lead because he can subdue others. An aggressive male is I guess also seen as a good protector. So even if this traits are nowadays culturally not seen positively they probably excite the primal instincts of women. Omega 3 snake oil have you asked this woman also about her childhood and her family there should be some more clues?
Pleiades Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 I think what also needs to be added to the discussion about this is that the rape fantasy is one of the top fantasies for women I don't know is there is any good research on this. But I have noticed myself on OKCupid where they have a question if you would be willing to play out a rape fantasy with your partner that the women I looked at mostly answered yes to this question. To me this seems like it could be connected. I find this to be a particularly interesting comment. The guys I see on OKCupid very frequently answer "No" to the rape fantasy question as in, they would not be willing to enact a rape fantasy. So this leads me to two questions: 1. What type of woman would want a rape fantasy? I theorize that bitches are crazy women do respond positively to assertive and aggressive men. In an emotionally unhealthy women this can manifest as a forceful sexual encounter; whereas, an emotionally healthy woman would probably prefer the sweep-me-off-my-feet approach of strength. In essence, unhealthy women want men's force used on them, and healthy women want men's force used for them. 2. Why are most men uncomfortable with this? It seems that even emotionally unhealthy men (except the extreme cases of sociopathy) are adamantly against this, even if they just recognize that they shouldn't admit to it openly. This translates to emotionally unhealthy men want to use their force on women (in this case rape, but in the more likely case them being physically controlling), whereas emotionally healthy men want to use their force for women (white knighting).
Omega 3 snake oil Posted June 16, 2014 Author Posted June 16, 2014 Omega 3 snake oil have you asked this woman also about her childhood and her family there should be some more clues? A bit. I know the surface stuff and her family sounds great. Educated, loving parents. A brother close in age who she's basically best friends with. I don't know her that well but I would be shocked if she was ever abused by her family.I think her deal is more that she's been too protected, too coddled, has never been berated, contradicted, etc., so now she doesn't know what's what. She's a princess. In fact she calls herself that.
AlesD Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 A bit. I know the surface stuff and her family sounds great. Educated, loving parents. A brother close in age who she's basically best friends with. I don't know her that well but I would be shocked if she was ever abused by her family. In my experience this is often the first answer you get from most people when you ask about this things but when you dig deeper other things might show up. It is not neccesarry there is some big abuse sometimes a very controling parent or something like that can influence such things. If her brother is such a good friend of hers he probably could give a lot of advice about the men she wants to date. So it is even less understandable why she would end up with an abusive guy. But this are just my speculations without the real information it is not possible to say much. I think her deal is more that she's been too protected, too coddled, has never been berated, contradicted, etc., so now she doesn't know what's what. She's a princess. In fact she calls herself that. This is a valid point about beeing to protected this is definitely a possibility but it does not seem very likely to me. I would more say she thinks she can get away with anything since she is the princess. Maybe she thinks that becuse everybody cuddles her nothing bad can happen even by associating with bad people. There will be always the white night to step in in times of trouble. But this are again just speculations. Also i see a big contradiction in her thinking from what you said. It is kind of illogical if she cals herself a princess that she would consider you to be too good for her. I would assume a princess would consider most men too bad for her. Princesses usualy marry the most high status males.
PatrickC Posted June 16, 2014 Posted June 16, 2014 Great post Omega and I'm pretty much in agreement with your experience. This is particularly true of high status women. At least the unconscious ones, that never question their motives. It was telling and not altogether surprising that she lost interest in your relationship when you began to provide her some tough insight into her history.
Liberty Bill Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 b) you're missing my point in an embarrassingly fundamental way You are correct, sir... my bad.
TheMatrixHasMe Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 "These meetings have been less dates and more walking around the park at night." Wait a minute—this woman is concerned about getting involved with abusive men, but insists on talking walks around a park at night with a guy she only recently met on the internet? What is standing out for me is that you might be ignoring your own self protection. Do you think tho might be the case?
Omega 3 snake oil Posted June 29, 2014 Author Posted June 29, 2014 What is standing out for me is that you might be ignoring your own self protection. Do you think tho might be the case? You mean she might be ignoring her own self-protection? If this is what you mean, then yes I would say that seems to be the case.As far as why, I think it's a combination of:a) her having super high standards, and only wanting men who seem desirable in superficial ways (money, status, or apparently in my case, looks)b) her lacking a sense of positive masculinity; although close with her father and brother, I do think she's struggled to accept/normalize masculinity in relation to herself as she's been placed in an ivory tower. In short, I imagine she gets bored and lonely up there, and perhaps seeking out danger or drama or intrigue is a means of medicating her boredom.Status update: She contacted me after close to a week of not speaking, and was talking about the job offer she just accepted out of town, and how I can come visit, etc. I basically told her I found her a bit insincere and I think she should work on that if she wants to have a healthy relationship with a decent man. She said something about not needing the judgement of strangers, etc. and that was the end of it.
TheMatrixHasMe Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 No Omega. I do not mean she might be ignoring her own self protection. My question was why are YOU walking in a park alone at night with a hot chick you know little or nothing about? Maybe you're confident in your ability to handle yourself if things should get "rough"with her in the park at night, eh? : ) Do you know this female well enough to trust them not to bring rape charges against you in the absence of witnesses? Are you certain that she doesn't have people laying in wait somewhere on the perimeter of the park waiting to jump you? What I mean to say is that it is somewhat—if not completely—fucked up for an attractive woman to insist on walking with a stranger (you) at night in a park. Get what I am saying? My question, put another way is this; how many seemingly intelligent, normal, healthy, gorgeous, desirable, fertile, leggy chicks do you see walking around in dark parks at night with guys they just met? Outside of hookers, whores, players, and gangsters, would I be correct in saying zero? Just trying to look out for you bro since it seems that your dick isn't. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe you need to have a tea break with Rosy Palmer and her five sitters to clear you mind of this woman's affect on you?
PatrickC Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Very well said matrix. I look back on my history with this and I shudder. It's a salutory reminder to all men that when meeting a women for the first time that you remain in public throughout.
Omega 3 snake oil Posted July 1, 2014 Author Posted July 1, 2014 No Omega. I do not mean she might be ignoring her own self protection. My question was why are YOU walking in a park alone at night with a hot chick you know little or nothing about? Maybe you're confident in your ability to handle yourself if things should get "rough"with her in the park at night, eh? : ) Yeah, pretty much. It was about eight pm and this is the park: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/59/90/8d/queen-s-park.jpg aka Queen's Park, in one of Toronto's nicer areas. Sorry I should've mentioned that. The rest of your points do seem silly to me but I guess that's what I get for not being more descriptive. Get what I am saying? My question, put another way is this; how many seemingly intelligent, normal, healthy, gorgeous, desirable, fertile, leggy chicks do you see walking around in dark parks at night with guys they just met? Outside of hookers, whores, players, and gangsters, would I be correct in saying zero? It was mainly joggers and other young attractive couples.
TheMatrixHasMe Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Nice park. If the rest of my points seem silly to you, then I am sorry for that. Just trying to be helpful in a world of baloney. In your original post, you said that the woman's family is successful and well educated. Then why do you think their daughter is getting involved in shitty relationships? Is that related to her alpha status in some way?
Omega 3 snake oil Posted July 2, 2014 Author Posted July 2, 2014 In your original post, you said that the woman's family is successful and well educated. Then why do you think their daughter is getting involved in shitty relationships? Is that related to her alpha status in some way? Yes, I think it's related to her alpha status.First, here's why I consider her alpha:- 26, six feet tall, blonde, thin, attractive. Not gorgeous, but attractive enough for 90% of men.- holds a PhD and just got a job at a good university- parents are highly educated, her dad's a CEO- Princess complex. Lives in a large house in the country. They don't seem wealthy but I'm sure are quite comfortable- Is focused entirely on her own success and comfort- Has never had a relationship last longer than a year. Her explanation: "I just get bored"In light of all this, how many men are there who are going to match up with her, let alone provide a sense of trading up, i.e. satiating her hypergamy instinct? We're talking at most five to ten percent of the male population, a demographic who themselves tend to be quite smart and selective.So, the odds of her finding a man that meets her fundamental needs (being protected yet dominated) are slim to nil, meaning her needs aren't being met. And a starving person can do some risky or stupid things.Ergo, the rational part of her mind (which is strong, hence her success) tells her she's not going to find a Prince/alpha male to commit to her, the irrational part of her mind (also strong) steps in and says, may as well go for a thrill. Think addict's mentality. Or: My take on her odd choice in men, which I have yet to share with her exactly, is that as an Alpha female she is somewhat limited in the number of men who appeal to her. To match up, let alone trade up, she'd need a man over 6'2" tall, very handsome, a PhD/similar level of education, holding a well respected position in society, and who comes from a happy/successful/intact family. So, her chances aren't the greatest. Knowing this, she allows the hypergamy instinct to run away with her, being drawn to men who act better than her. Men who put her in her place, mistreat her, make her feel small.No, she doesn't want to be abused. But she needs to feel the man she's with is above her, has power over her, is better than her. This is what the hypergamy instinct translates to in contemporary society, given most men no longer hold traditional provider/protector roles. This is a valid point about beeing to protected this is definitely a possibility but it does not seem very likely to me. I would more say she thinks she can get away with anything since she is the princess. Maybe she thinks that becuse everybody cuddles her nothing bad can happen even by associating with bad people. There will be always the white night to step in in times of trouble. But this are again just speculations. Also i see a big contradiction in her thinking from what you said. It is kind of illogical if she cals herself a princess that she would consider you to be too good for her. I would assume a princess would consider most men too bad for her. Princesses usualy marry the most high status males. Very good points. I do think that she downplays her physical attractiveness for reasons I couldn't fully understand. She may be rationalizing the fact she's resigned herself to Betas and assholes. Or maybe she's up-playing my looks to achieve the same kind of rationalization: "Ohhh this guy's so hot he can get away with anything, I wouldn't be surprised if he slaps me around and spits in my face like I'm secretly fantasizing about"...Just some possibilities.
cynicist Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 A bit. I know the surface stuff and her family sounds great. Educated, loving parents. A brother close in age who she's basically best friends with. I don't know her that well but I would be shocked if she was ever abused by her family. So she has a loving family, is practically best friends with her brother, and yet she has trouble with physically and verbally abusive boyfriends? Something does not compute. her lacking a sense of positive masculinity; although close with her father and brother Hmm...
TheMatrixHasMe Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 I'm not sharing this story just for the sake of sharing, but because for once I feel I have a partial answer to something that may have perplexed our own Wizard of Philosophy. It's probably me, but after reading, and re-reading your replies to me and to others on this thread, I realize that I have no idea as to what you are posting about. You talk about a woman you met online, then you close by writing "I'm not sharing this story just for the sake of sharing, but because for once I feel I have a partial answer to something that may have perplexed our own Wizard of Philosophy." What exactly are you referring to?
cynicist Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 He's talking about this: Stefan recently commented on the tendency of women to choose to be with men who are violent, abusive, or otherwise unsavory characters, stating that a lot of the violence in the world owes its existence to this tendency. I've had several experiences that have made me think about this in the past, but one quite recently that I think reinforces this idea more strongly than anything in my past. and his theory is No, she doesn't want to be abused. But she needs to feel the man she's with is above her, has power over her, is better than her. This is what the hypergamy instinct translates to in contemporary society, given most men no longer hold traditional provider/protector roles. An alternative theory would be that he doesn't know the truth about her and her family, and the real reason she is drawn to and accepts abuse in her personal relationships.
Omega 3 snake oil Posted July 2, 2014 Author Posted July 2, 2014 So she has a loving family, is practically best friends with her brother, and yet she has trouble with physically and verbally abusive boyfriends? Something does not compute. Hmm... Yes, you are spot on with that. It's honestly a mystery, I've simply offered one explanation based on everything I know about this individual and about humanity. An alternative theory would be that he doesn't know the truth about her and her family, and the real reason she is drawn to and accepts abuse in her personal relationships. Yes, bang on. I only found out the basics, but she told me one story that made me think her background is very loving and stable.Her parents both came from the same village in Eastern Europe. Her father left when he was nineteen and her mother was fifteen (I think). They wrote letters back and forth for about five years, then she came to Canada and they were married and have stayed married. That's a pretty strong-sounding marriage and love story.Another angle: Maaaaybe there was such pressure on her to succeed that she's never had that much real control over her life. Finding herself in a buttoned-down establishment that's wanting her for the rest of her life (to her, this will prove to be marriage). Resigning herself to this life of boredom and being doted on by the academic version of alpha males (not that exciting from what I hear) has built some pent up lack of masculine energy. Needing to cavort with a sexy bad boy. Which I'm not, but apparently she considers herself dreadful looking next to me.Anyway, who knows. I had the sense to pull the cord.... THIS time
Bel Rick Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I would suggest that whenever a female meets a new male, just assume that she is lying in order to protect herself or create an advantage for herselfThat is in this case, she wanted to see if your appearance (wealth + genetics) would engage her hind brain lust function.It didn't.So she lied about it being all about HER so as to not make you feel bad about it being all about YOU and therefor remove the chance that you react aggressively. ("Fuck you, you stuck up bitch judging me on my appearance")Move on.
Omega 3 snake oil Posted July 16, 2014 Author Posted July 16, 2014 I would suggest that whenever a female meets a new male, just assume that she is lying in order to protect herself or create an advantage for herselfThat is in this case, she wanted to see if your appearance (wealth + genetics) would engage her hind brain lust function.It didn't.So she lied about it being all about HER so as to not make you feel bad about it being all about YOU and therefor remove the chance that you react aggressively. ("Fuck you, you stuck up bitch judging me on my appearance")Move on. I really need to give you a thumbs down on this one. I think you're not engaging with the facts and arguments laid out in this thread, i.e. kinda trolling.
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