Intervention

[Ruben Zandstra]

I just did a full on intervention with an abuser. She's the mother of one of my youngest daughter's classmates.

For a while I've been wary of letting my daughter play over at her house, because on several occasions I've seen her acting in a punitive and heartless way towards her son, who is "rebellious" and "not listening". 

The other day the boy ( who is a great little guy) was playing at our place. When his mother came picking him up he was mad and dissappointed because she came by car instead of on bike as she had promised earlier.

He was angry, and after dismissing this fact offhandedly she told him to thank me for the play-over. He kept being angry (rightly so), and then she grabbed him, pulled him to the other side of her car where -out of sight- she had a one-on-one with him.

Then she picked him up, stashed him in the car and while driving off the boy frantically yelled "Thank you for the play-over", crying.

 

Today, entering the school, I told her that I had been shocked by the event; the pulling, the shoving, the obvious threats, the force involved. I asked her what her own thoughts were, and she rejected the idea of having hurt the boy.

I kissed my girls goodbye and walked outside, and then she followed me outside.

We had a talk for about five minutes, and nearing the end we were both crying. I could write the conversation down, but with the emotions shown I guess you could say I 've gotten through to her at least in the moment.

 

Even so, I'm a bit wary right now. Like her, I'll be visiting this school for another six years. If this continues to be a terrible mother I'm in for some trouble from now on, just like the kids. 

And I wonder how she will act the next time we come across. I also wonder what I'll tell my daughter who wants to go and play over there next week, because I made it quite clear to the mother that her behavior is not something that I want to expose my daughter to.

[TheMatrixHasMe]

This sounds like a difficult and complicated situation.

 

Is it possible for you to find /create a way for the boy to come over to your place instead of you sending your children over there to play?

 

Hopefully, he can experience a more peaceful, calm, and understanding environment on a regular basis, instead of you sending your children over there.

 

Any thoughts on my suggestion?

[Ruben Zandstra]

I agree, good suggestion. Practical problems though:

For some time I've been upholding the rule that it should be one play-over at their place, the next one at our place. Previously, since the boy much prefers playing at his own house, my daughter would ask me again and again if she could play with him at his house, until I got too uneasy about the mother. After I got adamant about it, they did not play for some time at all because the boy would not come over to our place. Which was quite hard to understand for my daughter. I ( and she) tried to find out why he would not come over and we got no real specific answers. I guess it's some variety of Stockholm syndrome. Whenever the boy finally comes over we always have lots of fun and I sense no anxiety or whatever. The woman really likes my daughter, in a sugarcoated fashion, adding to my uneasiness. I do not want my daughter to be treated like a little princess by a woman who treats her own son like shit at the same time.

 

This morning I made it quite clear that the halfway-rule I've been upholding is not based on any courtesy. It is based on my uneasiness of exposing my daughter to her behavior. 

By now I think I should probably have a talk with my daughter about the conversation I had with the mother, and explain to her how playing at the boy's house is not an option anymore. Which is going to be hard for her to understand even more. I should probably have done it right the first time I guess.

[TheMatrixHasMe]

I agree, good suggestion. Practical problems though:

For some time I've been upholding the rule that it should be one play-over at their place, the next one at our place. Previously, since the boy much prefers playing at his own house, my daughter would ask me again and again if she could play with him at his house, until I got too uneasy about the mother. After I got adamant about it, they did not play for some time at all because the boy would not come over to our place. Which was quite hard to understand for my daughter. I ( and she) tried to find out why he would not come over and we got no real specific answers. I guess it's some variety of Stockholm syndrome. Whenever the boy finally comes over we always have lots of fun and I sense no anxiety or whatever. The woman really likes my daughter, in a sugarcoated fashion, adding to my uneasiness. I do not want my daughter to be treated like a little princess by a woman who treats her own son like shit at the same time.

 

This morning I made it quite clear that the halfway-rule I've been upholding is not based on any courtesy. It is based on my uneasiness of exposing my daughter to her behavior. 

By now I think I should probably have a talk with my daughter about the conversation I had with the mother, and explain to her how playing at the boy's house is not an option anymore. Which is going to be hard for her to understand even more. I should probably have done it right the first time I guess.

 

How old is your daughter, and how old is the boy?

[Ruben Zandstra]

They're both five years old.

[TheMatrixHasMe]

Why do you think you were leaving your daughter alone in the home of a person who is apparently a complete stranger to you begin with?

Another question.

 

Why do you think you are leaving your daughter alone in a school filled with even more people who are complete strangers to you?

[TheMatrixHasMe]

Sorry, but I have a few more tough questions. I hope you will consider them, if only for the sake of your daughter.

 

 

• If you decide to cut your daughter off from her friend because of your "oversight," how do you think your daughter is going to feel about that?

 

 

• What do you think that is going to do her relationship with you?

 

 

• How do you think the boy is going to feel when he learns that he can never see one of his favorite friends again?

 

 

• Do you find the mother of your daughter's friend attractive in some way?

 

 

 

Here is one of many possible solutions to the situation you have inadvertently created.

 

Keep things cool for now, and there may not be any need to discuss the matter with your daughter. Start introducing the idea to her, and to the other parent that you would prefer that the children meet at a nearby park, or mall, or play center, or whatever is an appropriate place. You do not leave your daughter unattended with strangers hanging around. That way, you can supervise your daughters interactions with other children, and/or parents. 

 

 

Let me know what, if any of this is helpful, or if I've misunderstood anything. 

[Ruben Zandstra]

Tough questions, they fill me with some anxiety.

Where we live, I am forced to take her to public school. I guess that's the essential rabbit hole.

The school we picked is the smallest and least troubling one we could find, with teachers that I interviewed before we enrolled.

Still, you're right: I'm leaving her in the hands of people who are essentially strangers all the time.

I ask them about their experiences with these people every day, and it is a concern that continues to trouble me.

 

I was not planning to cut my daughter off from her friend completely. It's just that the play-overs would have to be at our house.

She already has been sad and frustrated about my rule of mutual play-overs, instead of her going over to the friends house each time whenever invited. If I now change the rule to play-overs only at our house, I imagine she will be even more sad and frustrated, and confused about these changing rules concerning who and where she is allowed to spend time with. As to the boy, I imagine that he is experiencing hell on a daily basis, and has resigned to not feeling most of it, except for the evident rage and defiance towards his mother. I imagine he feels rejected, lonely, scared and alienated. I try to chat with him whenever I can, and it keeps amazing me how agreeable his company is, if a little distant, and how he seems at ease as long as his mother is not around.

 

 

The mother struck me as attractive when I first encountered her, she vaguely reminds me of my own mother, especially once the emotional abuse became apparent. At which point I became actively repulsed, even when physically attracted to some degree. I really despise women that give no second thought to spilling their crazy and violence around, because, well, who is going to fight against pretty. When I had the conversation with her the other day I was quite surprised with how she was not simply dismissing me or lighting up in anger, but started crying and seemed willing to hear me out. I've been avoiding her as much as possible until now, and would have actually much preferred to keep on doing so. To be honest I have no expectations of her becoming less abusive except out in the open, out of shame and social pressure. And she might want to play the situation, and play me.

 

Thanks for your concern Steve. If my answers bring up more please let me know.

 

The playground is actually a good idea, thanks.

For now, I'm going to keep things cool as you mentioned, and not discuss this with my daughter.

[PatrickC]

Wow Ruben, braveheart indeed. I was curious how you started crying too. I seemed to miss a large chunk of what was going on for you up to that point.

[Ruben Zandstra]

Thanks Patrick.

I felt strong emotions when after I had told her of my anger and concern about how she treats her son, and told her how she is the deficient one and not her child, at some point she started to cry and talk about her childhood, how her parents were out of her life, and how she did not want to be the mother that she herself had had. I mentioned how she reminded me of my own mother, who is now long dead and how her death has been like a ton of bricks falling from my back, except that she is still in my head. That's what you're creating for your son. I guess we both felt each others deep sorrow for a moment. I told her how I had been in her position to some degree, and that I understand. And that there's things you can actually do, and stop doing, and how I've done a lot of that. How much it makes things better, and that it can be done.

I told her that therapy might help, how I've spent years in talk-therapy, and how it's affected my life. 

[PatrickC]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, the sorrow and empathy part makes a lot of sense.

[TheMatrixHasMe]

 

Tough questions, they fill me with some anxiety.

Where we live, I am forced to take her to public school. I guess that's the essential rabbit hole.

The school we picked is the smallest and least troubling one we could find, with teachers that I interviewed before we enrolled.

Still, you're right: I'm leaving her in the hands of people who are essentially strangers all the time.

I ask them about their experiences with these people every day, and it is a concern that continues to trouble me.

 

I was not planning to cut my daughter off from her friend completely. It's just that the play-overs would have to be at our house.

She already has been sad and frustrated about my rule of mutual play-overs, instead of her going over to the friends house each time whenever invited. If I now change the rule to play-overs only at our house, I imagine she will be even more sad and frustrated, and confused about these changing rules concerning who and where she is allowed to spend time with. As to the boy, I imagine that he is experiencing hell on a daily basis, and has resigned to not feeling most of it, except for the evident rage and defiance towards his mother. I imagine he feels rejected, lonely, scared and alienated. I try to chat with him whenever I can, and it keeps amazing me how agreeable his company is, if a little distant, and how he seems at ease as long as his mother is not around.

 

 

The mother struck me as attractive when I first encountered her, she vaguely reminds me of my own mother, especially once the emotional abuse became apparent. At which point I became actively repulsed, even when physically attracted to some degree. I really despise women that give no second thought to spilling their crazy and violence around, because, well, who is going to fight against pretty. When I had the conversation with her the other day I was quite surprised with how she was not simply dismissing me or lighting up in anger, but started crying and seemed willing to hear me out. I've been avoiding her as much as possible until now, and would have actually much preferred to keep on doing so. To be honest I have no expectations of her becoming less abusive except out in the open, out of shame and social pressure. And she might want to play the situation, and play me.

 

Thanks for your concern Steve. If my answers bring up more please let me know.

 

The playground is actually a good idea, thanks.

For now, I'm going to keep things cool as you mentioned, and not discuss this with my daughter.

 

 

Glad to hear that you found my questions helpful, Ruben. To reconsider your experience of a women(the little boys mother) who unconsciously/subconsciously reminds you of your mother is no small task. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Xelent, it was brave of you to jump in there. That can be really hard to do especially if you have had a childhood similar to the little boy and mother who is triggering recollections of —what sounds like—a really painful past.

 

 You mentioned that you have an appreciation for the little guy. That stood out for me.

 

What is amazing about your current situation is that the woman—who reminds you of your mother in some way(s)—has a son who also happens to be one of your daughter's best friends.

 

What I mean to say is that there is something beautiful about that coincidence. Do you know what I mean? It's as if you daughter is showing you, (albeit unconsciously, perhaps) that you might be missing something about yourself with regard to what you suffered when you were a little boy.

 

Does this make any sense? 

I have to ask another question. It revolves around an earlier sentence you wrote; "Where we live, I am forced to take her to public school."

 

My question is who is forcing you to take your children to public school, and by what means are they doing so?

[Ruben Zandstra]

 

What is amazing about your current situation is that the woman—who reminds you of your mother in some way(s)—has a son who also happens to be one of your daughter's best friends.

 

What I mean to say is that there is something beautiful about that coincidence. Do you know what I mean? It's as if you daughter is showing you, (albeit unconsciously, perhaps) that you might be missing something about yourself with regard to what you suffered when you were a little boy.

 

Does this make any sense? 

I have to ask another question. It revolves around an earlier sentence you wrote; "Where we live, I am forced to take her to public school."

 

My question is who is forcing you to take your children to public school, and by what means are they doing so?

 

Yeah I have that quite a lot actually. We have two daughters (and an eldest son). Both girls are drawn to playing with boys, and quite often I identify strongly with their guests. I remember having girlfriends when I was very young, and even if I can't remember much perhaps they helped me pull through more than I am aware. 

 

About school:  In the Netherlands school attendance is required by law from the age of five. Non compliance will get you into a lot of trouble ( though in some cases you get a clearance when you're religious and / or file objections before the child reaches the age of five). Once your child is registered in school there's really no way out, unless you are willing to get a criminal record, seek legal help, face court and be under a lot of permanent stress. After gaining the insights / empathy we now have concerning public school some years ago we've seriously considered taking them out, but also given the fact that our children themselves want to keep attending school, we've decided against it. We did take them to one that's less awful than the initial one.