Phuein Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 EDIT: Used smooching instead of mooching, originally. Fixed. I have watched many episodes on Dr. Phil, where they talk about a child, usually a young adult (18 - 30) who is living with their parents, and more often than not, living off of their money, as well. Both Dr. Phil and Stefan encourage young adults to get out of their (often abusive) homes, get a job, start small, and slowly grow bigger - professionally. I understand that both of them went through this, in their own lives; where they were forced to go and work in menial labour, as they did not enjoy funding from their parents, as teenagers and young adults. Now, about me. I am 27 years old. I live with my parents, and I live off of their money, including purchasing occasional goods. My childhood story, and even current story, is not a pleasant one. A lot of problems at home, which were partially opened for discussion during my twenties, but only partially solved, and mostly shoved under the rug, in shame. However, I am an autodidactic student and artist. Even as a young boy, I have felt that school was a waste of time, and that most people around me are entirely not inquisitive, interested, or curious about life and living; unlike myself. I have tried and quit 3D graphics, web programming, and book authoring. I am continuously working, without pay, as a blogger, short story author, and narrator. I am very happy doing these - as compared to my previous not creative & boring years, but I do suffer the obvious lackings of such a lifestyle: mostly physically alone, without my own funds, and no place of my own. Which brings me to my very personal question, to you, my fellow Freedomain community members. Am I missing out, or doing a mistake, or being naive, by staying at a dysfunctional house (although mostly empty and quiet), working alone, daily, in front of my computer, and trying different ventures and professions, as an entrepreneur?
DaVinci Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 That is hard to answer as I can see both sides of the situation. I lived at home until I was around 25 and had both a strict confining angry dad, and a strict confining angry step-dad. While paying for rent in your own apartment/house might mean you have to go get a job you don't want or isn't conducive to where you want to get in life you might find you have more freedom in the long run by doing so and getting away from toxic relationships. On the other hand you might have more freedom by continuing to live at home, but the price you pay will be having to endure the toxic relationships. So either way you will be paying a price. Ultimately I think the goal should be to leave their home, and you just need to weigh the option of staying longer against leaving sooner and figure out which one can get you out of there and in a financially stable way that you enjoy quicker. My own personal experience looking back is that I should have left home sooner. Even if leaving home meant living in a winnebago, or a storage facility with a hammock, or whatever it took.
Brentb Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 Look at the lives of the writers and people in general that you admire most. Did they live with their parents until their late 20's? If so, then maybe it's the way to go. Though I'd guess that it's not the case, and that the real life experience of supporting oneself is critical for development as a person and as an artist. Both Dr. Phil and Stefan encourage young adults to get out of their (often abusive) homes, get a job, start small, and slowly grow bigger - professionally. I understand that both of them went through this, in their own lives; where they were forced to go and work in menial labour, as they did not enjoy funding from their parents, as teenagers and young adults. I think you have the order mixed up a little. The first thing to do is to get a job. After highschool, I had no interest in going straight to college. There was no money for it anyway, so I got a job in a factory as a material handler. While still living with my parents, I worked as many hours as possible and took night classes at the local community college which kept me out of the house, and managed to save up about $12,000 in a year from making $10/hour. Then I moved out of my parents place to room with a friend in another state in an area that had lower cost of living, and got another menial job that paid a little more. A year after that, I decided to go to college and blah, blah, blah.
powder Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 You may like what you are doing with your self-directed occupation, but I am suspicious of the use of the phrase "I am happy" I have a friend, who is older than me, and he has a 40yr old son living in his basement doing exactly what you describe. He actually moved back home at your age after finishing his second degree, the last one in computer graphics. His idea was that he would work on his skill set and look for work but live at home until he was able to be self-sufficient - that was almost 15 years ago. His son has grown fat, lazy and clinically depressed with no social life and his ability to live an independent, self-sufficient life has all but evaporated with the dreams of his 20's. When I get together with my friend he laments about his son's situation and is burdened and conflicted over what to do about it and how to help him get a life that he knows will be good for him. We used to talk about what his son needed to do (counselling etc) and in recent years I have come to think that it is the parents that need counselling. The son is still in that situation because it somehow serves other peoples needs in the house. Otherwise, they would send him on his way for his sake. I had a dysfunctional home life, but my parents did have boundaries about this stuff. After the age of 18 you had to pay rent (unless you were still in school) to stay at home. If I was going to pay rent I would rather live my own life. I am old enough to be your father Phuein. Get out of there man. Don't wait for your parents to kick you out, it may never happen. I am a self employed artist making a good living so I get it on that level. what makes you valuable in the market is not what you can do or what you know, but who you are - work ethic, discipline, courage, integrity - you won't develop those qualities mooching off your parents.
Josh F Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 When I was a kid I would constantly tell my parents that I was out of there right when I turned 18. The reality was that it wasn't until I was 19, and went to college, that I moved out. Though only a year, I remember the same conflict. The comfort of abuse. At the very least, being inside a house with abusers you know prevents you from the unknown abusers "out there" waiting for you, and the comfort comes from the steady slow drip of emotional pain likely an improvement from how you described your life prior to your 20's. The truth is though that as you adopt the philosophy of voluntary adult relationships, there is no one in the world who can psychologically latch into you without your consent. In my own experience, I realized shortly after moving out that I would prefer homelessness to moving back in, though that moment never came. I can say, give it a shot. You really don't know yet and it is entirely worth it to figure out. And while computer skills or writing skills are useful, the world is in demand of people with job experience and the more of it you have now the more opportunities will arise in your future. Having now ran failed and successful businesses, worked boring retail and exciting jobs, this mix of failure and success IS my real skill, not my programming or graphic design or animating or construction or business management, which while useful, are refined through the trial and error of the real world. The real world is a forge, refining your edge; the comforting slow drip of abuse turns you gelatinous.
RyanT Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 trying different ventures and professions, as an entrepreneur? As the immortal line goes 'So, how's that working out for you?' Of course we can probably find the odd rare exceptions but occupation wise, you basically start at the very bottom and work your way up. Certainly I've never met anybody who's now earning any sort of honest living who didn't at some point have a really boring job they hated...or for that matter a successful entrepreneur who wasn't previously doing well for themselves as an employee. Indeed looking back at the kids I grew up with, in pretty much 9/10 of cases, regardless of intelligence, talent or even social skills those who were flipping burgers, waiting tables or stacking supermarket shelves at 16 are now well on their way in their chosen career, while those who didn't have a job by 20 ( myself included) are now flipping burgers, waiting tables or stacking supermarket shelves. powder nailed it, you've got to learn those skills and pretty much the only way to do it's to actually go out there and genuinely live off the value you provide the world.
ausppc Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 OP, are you objective enough to know the difference between working and indulging a hobby? Do you have any siblings? I ask because I'm curious about their opinion of your lifestyle.
Phuein Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 I'm glad to see so many responses, already. I should clarify a few details, first, then. I was raised by two neglecting parents, but the generally and mostly active abuser was my dad. Since the previous year, he had been away for work in another country, which means that the house had become quiet and comfortable, mostly. I am sure that I would not have been able to tolerate his presence this long, if he weren't away. Also, while powder's story sounds horrifying, indeed, it is far from my situation. I was kicked out of the house several times, already, by my dad. During my twenties, I had spent several years abroad, traveling, and even living outdoors entirely, before coming back here. What brought me back, was an interest in creating a professional life for myself, with an income (as opposed to volunteering.) However, I did get to work many different menial jobs, during my twenties. I worked little and rarely, and used the money for my previous travels. I have yet to find a workplace that felt like I could tolerate it, for more than a month or two. This is, partially, what had driven me into trying to be an entrepreneur. As a younger adult, I was actually interested in finding a place, where I could join and be a part [of]. I willfully decided to let that idea go, when I hit 25. OP, are you objective enough to know the difference between working and indulging a hobby? Do you have any siblings? I ask because I'm curious about their opinion of your lifestyle. I do know the difference between a hobby and a profession. I have many hobbies, and I have learned, the rough way, that the two are not the same. Programming used to be a hobby of mine, and because it is a lucrative profession, I tried to work in it. It went really badly, to say the least, for me. Sadly, my elder brother turned out to be psychotic and abusive, like my dad. As little kids, we used to play together and talk, but since our teens we are estranged, completely. He doesn't live at home. No one in my family, even extended, supports my ideas or behavior, at all. I have been attacked, for being different, ever since I was kid. So, I hardly expected to have them advise or guide me.
powder Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 the added info about your life and family makes it all the more interesting that you would be asking a question that you clearly know the answer to. good for you for asking the question though.
Phuein Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 the added info about your life and family makes it all the more interesting that you would be asking a question that you clearly know the answer to. good for you for asking the question though. Thanks for saying that. I was worried that people might attack me, for already having a well-framed opinion, while asking for their opinions. I'm glad that the responses are all considerate and practical.
Jeremi Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 Am I missing out, or doing a mistake, or being naive, by staying at a dysfunctional house (although mostly empty and quiet), working alone, daily, in front of my computer, and trying different ventures and professions, as an entrepreneur? Putting aside for the moment the issue of being inside the Lion's den so to speak, are you comfortable with being 27 and having no income or mounting work experience that would eventually leave to you achieving independence (at least not that I gathered in your post)? This I think is the more pressing question, since the issue is more than just you continuing to live there, but you continuing to live there with zero apparent mechanism for reversing that. You are 27, time is not your ally in this equation.
Phuein Posted July 2, 2014 Author Posted July 2, 2014 ...are you comfortable with being 27 and having no income or mounting work experience that would eventually leave to you achieving independence (at least not that I gathered in your post)? This I think is the more pressing question, since the issue is more than just you continuing to live there, but you continuing to live there with zero apparent mechanism for reversing that. You are 27, time is not your ally in this equation. That's the first thing that I had in mind, some years back, when I decided to go on this path. As a kid, I was always told to just do the next thing, so I will "have all those doors open" for me, in the future, for whatever I would want to do. But that sort of attitude never worked. It just led me to wasting my time doing things (schools, jobs) I was not interested in, and gaining opportunities (for example, working in high-tech, which I did for a bit) that I did not want. I'm encouraged by Stefan and other independent professionals, that say that gaining experience as an entrepreneur, doing your thing regularly, is much more valuable, than being an employee - obeying others well. It's experience for what I want to achieve, instead of experience for what others want from me. But nobody really talks about/with those entrepreneurs that haven't gained massive success, and are still doing their thing, quietly. Right? I've actually already decided that I'd rather be a poor menial worker, working part time and living like some older hippies I know, than be a normal employee. But that's only if I utterly fail in making money as an entrepreneur. Which is tricky.... When does one give up? When's "old enough", to stop trying to achieve my dreams and the occupation that I want? So far, the only reason I see for giving up is, if relying on my parents becomes too shaming, with age. But I've never been a bashful person.
Brentb Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 Wouldn't an entrepreneur have a plan and a timeline in place for making enough money to support his business and himself?
Phuein Posted July 7, 2014 Author Posted July 7, 2014 Wouldn't an entrepreneur have a plan and a timeline in place for making enough money to support his business and himself? I don't know. I have nobody in my life who's an entrepreneur. The only examples I know are online, and from other very different countries. The problem with this very valid question is that I don't have a clue what I would need to do, to make up a plan and a timeline. I just have no references for this.
powder Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 I don't know. I have nobody in my life who's an entrepreneur. The only examples I know are online, and from other very different countries. The problem with this very valid question is that I don't have a clue what I would need to do, to make up a plan and a timeline. I just have no references for this. I have long thought that mentoring is the best way to learn just about anything. If I were in your place I would seek out the most successful person(s) I could find who are engaged in what I wanted to do and learn as much as I could from them.
leslie Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I think the word you are trying to say is "mooching", not "smooching". I'm not pointing this out to ridicule you, but because I think that error is what happens when we get too isolated. There is no one around to tell us these things. The way you express yourself in writing makes me think that your communication is mostly one way. Again, it appears that you have a deficit of interaction with people.
Phuein Posted July 8, 2014 Author Posted July 8, 2014 I think the word you are trying to say is "mooching", not "smooching". I'm not pointing this out to ridicule you, but because I think that error is what happens when we get too isolated... Whoa, it is "mooching"! Actually, I'm not a native English speaker, so such a slang word could easily go bad with me. Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate the learning. Now, my thread's title looks so awkward haha (Help? Admins?) I actually chat regularly with many different people, from around the globe, both voice and chat. But, due to things being global, it's rare to find high quality English conversations. Not to mention slang. [Visiting England was an educating experience, with their English slang!] I have long thought that mentoring is the best way to learn just about anything. If I were in your place I would seek out the most successful person(s) I could find who are engaged in what I wanted to do and learn as much as I could from them. I thought about that, too, when I was younger. Especially, watching shows like Dr. Phil. He always seemed like a great mentor, although a harsh one. The big difficulty in doing this is that being an anarchist is so much the opposite of what being an Israeli means, that even the "better" guys are usually army fans, or against sharing feelings and ideas [, because that would be a waste of valuable time]. I envy people in the New World. Yeah, I know nobody uses that term anymore, these days. But, it really does apply!
cab21 Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 so smooching is kissing mooching is living off their resources without payment. think of how you can trade with your parents for what you want, how can you add value to their lives that they are happy with the situation. if they are happy with it, it's a trade, not really mooching
Phuein Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 think of how you can trade with your parents for what you want, how can you add value to their lives that they are happy with the situation. if they are happy with it, it's a trade, not really mooching I've tried to "trade" with them, previously. Sadly, I realized that I can't negotiate with fascists. Bullies. Uninterested apathetic self-made idiots. They just continue to veto and insist on their opinions, while ignoring what I think and feel. "Just do it our way, and then you can do whatever you want." Any disagreement on my side results in continuous panic and attacks, without any room for negotiation. So, I just take what I can, and give them as little as possible back, without giving any heed to their irrelevant opinions. It's horrible, but it works.
powder Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 So, I just take what I can, and give them as little as possible back, without giving any heed to their irrelevant opinions. It's horrible, but it works. I agree that it is horrible, but I don't agree with your definition of 'it works'.
Phuein Posted July 21, 2014 Author Posted July 21, 2014 I agree that it is horrible, but I don't agree with your definition of 'it works'. And the obvious question is... Why not?
powder Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 And the obvious question is... Why not? Because it makes you into a whore.
Phuein Posted July 21, 2014 Author Posted July 21, 2014 Because it makes you into a whore. Are you trying to bait me, using those one-liners? How does it make me into a whore? Please, elaborate. I would like to get a clear view of your perspective on this.
powder Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Are you trying to bait me, using those one-liners? How does it make me into a whore? Please, elaborate. I would like to get a clear view of your perspective on this. because you said this: I've tried to "trade" with them, previously. Sadly, I realized that I can't negotiate with fascists. Bullies. Uninterested apathetic self-made idiots. They just continue to veto and insist on their opinions, while ignoring what I think and feel. "Just do it our way, and then you can do whatever you want." Any disagreement on my side results in continuous panic and attacks, without any room for negotiation. So, I just take what I can, and give them as little as possible back, without giving any heed to their irrelevant opinions. It's horrible, but it works. You are trading your dignity, pride, honor, courage, self-esteem, self-reliance, confidence, etc, by taking $ and letting yourself be supported by "fascists. Bullies. Uninterested apathetic self-made idiots." You are no longer a dependent and these people do not owe you a living. It is an exchange that you are willing to make so you claim it 'works for you', but that makes you a prostitute of some sort I suppose. If you are happy with that arrangement then why are you here asking for insights?
Ivann Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Dude. I moved out of home 6 weeks ago at the age of nearly 26. Best decision of my life so far. For me, I didn't realise until I moved out how much my parents are a negative drain on me. I had a intellectual knowledge that I should move out and that it would be better for me but until I actually did it, I then saw how it was more of a emotional drain. I've been back there 3 times in the last 6 weeks and I get a sick/sad feeling when I'm around the house. For me It was - how am I going to get married and have kids when I haven't taken control of all aspects of my life? Hence GTFO of parents home.
Phuein Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 If you are happy with that arrangement then why are you here asking for insights? I find it strange that you would, at first, say, "good for you for asking the question though," and then ask me the above. It's as if you sympathized with my curiosity and will to improve my situation, but then decided that I am somehow not worthy of your sympathy, any longer. I never said I was happy with this arrangement, and this might be where you are misconstruing me. I said I am happy with my occupations, but I do suffer the drawbacks of this environment. This is just like I suffer the drawbacks of living in my country, while not finding a way out that does not seem worse, or too risky (illegal immigrant), as compared to suffering the drawbacks. I have long ago noticed that people from larger and more liberal countries find this hard to sympathize with. Moreover, the idea that an adult child is necessarily not dependent on their parents is not evident. Many adults are either entirely or partially dependent on their parents, simply because those parents have the funds to support them. And I see nothing wrong with that. Utilizing the people who brought us into this world, while protecting our interests, seems reasonable. They are, after all, the people who chose to bring me into this world. Why should they simply stop being responsible for me, while I fail as an adult? When I am to choose between my horrible parents and my horrible society, for where I can get the best conditions to thrive and eventually become separate from them both, sadly, my society is actually worse than my parents, in my experience. I had started this thread to figure out, if I may be missing on another option that had worked for someone else, with similar ideals to my own.
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