Does anybody have knowledge of transgenderism?

[MMX2010]

It is empirical.  They exist and they can be observed.  They are not a "medical" reality, but they are quite real and observable unlike a dream.

 

When MMX2010 wears a dress, that's NOT transgender.  When some individuals in this thread wear a dress, that IS transgender. 

 

I don't say that to be crass, but to assert that there is neither: (A) a consistently observed single-behavior, nor (B) a consistently observed cluster of behaviors which are present in transgender individuals, but absent in non-transgender individuals. 

 

Hence, transgender (as a phenomenon) is never directly observable.  What is observable are people who believe themselves to be transgender. 

 

 

 

 

You're continuing repeatedly to conflate biology with behavior.

 

No.  I'm arguing that it's philosophically inconsistent to simultaneously argue, "Transgender is a medical reality." and "No transgender individual needs to confirm their transgenderism with a medical diagnosis." 

 

That's all. 

 

Anyone can untangle that philosophical contradiction by accepting "one" or "the other" - but not both simultaneously.  Once you assert which of these you accept, I can outline the philosophical implications of choosing that argument.  (And I can also speculate why it's important for pro-transgender individuals to maintain belief in those two contradictory positions.) 

 

--------------------------

 

 

Oh for goodness sakes, are you going to answer my question or not?

 

It's like this.

 

Step One: Point out philosophical inconsistencies within a social movement.

 

Step Two: Invite people to rationally and calmly discuss those philosophical inconsistencies. 

 

Step Three: The larger percentage of people who CAN NOT handle such a discussion without losing their temper and/or advancing blatant double-standards, the lower the number I assign to the "Philosophical Consistency" score. 

[_LiveFree_]

It's like this.

 

Step One: Point out philosophical inconsistencies within a social movement.

 

Step Two: Invite people to rationally and calmly discuss those philosophical inconsistencies. 

 

Step Three: The larger percentage of people who CAN NOT handle such a discussion without losing their temper and/or advancing blatant double-standards, the lower the number I assign to the "Philosophical Consistency" score. 

 

Fantastic. Thank you.

 

So then it is accurate to say that this is based purely on your own subjective experience? How much experience do you have talking with people in the transgender community and spending time with them? How many doctors have you spoken to on the subject? Gender therapists?

 

edit: And numerically speaking, how do those experiences compare to experiences with members of the other 3 movements?

 

edit2: Do you take into account yourself as a variable in the equation? i.e. Your actions soliciting certain responses.

[iHuman]

Their are many things I could and would like to say in response, however in interest of not writing out an encyclopedia that likely will not actually get read I won't.

 

MMX, you honestly think it is a "social movement" ?

 

how did you come to that conclusion?

 

also one thing in interest of full disclosure and contrary to my preference to not talk about this in public forums, here goes.

 

I Personally have Gender Disphoria, I have been diagnosed with it more than once and and spent a VERY Long time in denial over it (it didn't go away and only got worse), later on I found out that in my case it isn't exactly a Transgender issue, something else I also spent a very long time in denial about and found out about quite by chance, I was born Intersexed and was half-assedly "Assigned" as male, and by half-assedly I mean that they left most of my female organs intact.

 

For Certain I did not want to have such a issue, but I do and I don't even view it as something being wrong with me, It's just the way I was born, I do however view having been forcibly "Altered" by others just so they could categorize me easier as a problem, but that is a different topic for a different post.

 

as some of you can imagine this gives me a somewhat different perspective than some on the whole issue.

 

MMX, so, what then in your mind does that categorize myself and others like myself as?

(their are far more like myself than you could likely imagine fyi) 

[MMX2010]

Their are many things I could and would like to say in response, however in interest of not writing out an encyclopedia that likely will not actually get read I won't.

 

MMX, you honestly think it is a "social movement" ?

 

how did you come to that conclusion?

 

 

 

I've posted this many times in the past two days, but no one has either commented on it, nor stated that a single thing I've said was non-factual: There's a philosophical disconnect between simultaneously arguing: (1) "Transgender is a medical reality." and (2) "No individual needs to have his/her transgender feelings confirmed by a medical diagnosis."  You can easily escape the philosophical contradiction by choosing to believe ONE of those, but you can't believe them both simultaneously. 

 

I don't mean to put words into Josh F's mouth, but he seems to have chosen Item Two and rejected Item One.  Nathan Diehl, (whether he's aware of it or not), has also adopted Item Two and rejected Item One.  (I only question whether he's aware of it, because he's questioning me about my "subjective experiences" without seeming to realize that, according to Josh F's answer, gender is also a subjective experience.) 

 

Declaring Gender to be a subjective experience has many philosophical consequences.  (1) To declare that your own feelings about your gender are subjective is to universalize that "Anyone's feelings about their gender are subjective."  (2) To declare that, "No one is allowed to look down upon my feelings about my gender." is to universalize that "No one is allowed to look down upon anyone's feelings about their gender."  (3) To declare that "Gender is purely subjective." is to declare that "No one has to scientifically explain, rationalize, justify their experiences of their own gender." 

 

Do you agree with all of these? 

 

If so, I experience pro-transgender as a social movement, because the majority of pro-transgender people simultaneously: (1) Argue that gender is purely subjective and (2) Violate every one of the blue-colored implications above. 

 

 

----------------------------

 

 

 

 

I Personally have Gender Disphoria, I have been diagnosed with it more than once and and spent a VERY Long time in denial over it (it didn't go away and only got worse), later on I found out that in my case it isn't exactly a Transgender issue, something else I also spent a very long time in denial about and found out about quite by chance, I was born Intersexed and was half-assedly "Assigned" as male, and by half-assedly I mean that they left most of my female organs intact.

 

For Certain I did not want to have such a issue, but I do and I don't even view it as something being wrong with me, It's just the way I was born, I do however view having been forcibly "Altered" by others just so they could categorize me easier as a problem, but that is a different topic for a different post.

 

Your words here strike me as adopting the "Transgender is a medical reality." position.  I actually like that position, because it has many strong points.  And its strongest point is that it moves completely away from the "Gender is purely subjective!" argument. 

 

Not to be crass or off-topic, but I very much like the artist Lorde.  I think her music is excellent and that her voice is beautiful.  South Park spoofed her and her music in the same episode that they spoofed the pro-transgender movement, and I experienced momentary annoyance and discomfort with the spoofing.  It got so bad that I was briefly tempted to stop listening to her altogether.  But then I realized that my appreciation for her and her music is purely subjective.  No one else is obligated to agree with my appreciation for her, but no one else can derive any reliable information about my personality or moral character based on it. 

 

Those are the rules for ALL subjective experiences: (1) You can never impose them on others.  (2) All attempts to deduce someone else's character or personality based on their subjective preferences is mostly BS. 

 

Once you argue that "Transgender is a medical reality.", those two rules are obliterated and replaced by: (1) You have to acknowledge the truth of transgender, because it is truth.  (2) Anyone's refusal to acknowledge this truth is highly revealing of their character.  (To the point where you can legitimately say, "Look dude.  I understand that this topic makes you uncomfortable, but your feelings of discomfort don't get to override the truth; that's a rule which applies to everyone on every topic." 

 

 

 

MMX, so, what then in your mind does that categorize myself and others like myself as?

 

Someone who truly has a medical condition, who shouldn't be made to suffer for possessing it.  I don't think people are positively obligated to like you as a person, but people are morally obligated to never let your condition form the major reason why they either like/dislike you. 

[Josh F]

When MMX2010 wears a dress, that's NOT transgender.  When some individuals in this thread wear a dress, that IS transgender. 

 

I don't say that to be crass, but to assert that there is neither: (A) a consistently observed single-behavior, nor (B) a consistently observed cluster of behaviors which are present in transgender individuals, but absent in non-transgender individuals. 

 

Hence, transgender (as a phenomenon) is never directly observable.  What is observable are people who believe themselves to be transgender. 

 

No.  I'm arguing that it's philosophically inconsistent to simultaneously argue, "Transgender is a medical reality." and "No transgender individual needs to confirm their transgenderism with a medical diagnosis." 

 

That's all. 

 

Anyone can untangle that philosophical contradiction by accepting "one" or "the other" - but not both simultaneously.  Once you assert which of these you accept, I can outline the philosophical implications of choosing that argument.  (And I can also speculate why it's important for pro-transgender individuals to maintain belief in those two contradictory positions.) 

 

Again, since you seem comfortable repeating points again and again:  transgender is not a "medical" reality.  Thats an argument you made up.  And yes, if you started to wear a dress and put on makeup you would be transgender, absolutely.  Thats what it means. 

 

 

I've posted this many times in the past two days, but no one has either commented on it, nor stated that a single thing I've said was non-factual: There's a philosophical disconnect between simultaneously arguing: (1) "Transgender is a medical reality." and (2) "No individual needs to have his/her transgender feelings confirmed by a medical diagnosis."  You can easily escape the philosophical contradiction by choosing to believe ONE of those, but you can't believe them both simultaneously. 

 

I don't mean to put words into Josh F's mouth, but he seems to have chosen Item Two and rejected Item One.  Nathan Diehl, (whether he's aware of it or not), has also adopted Item Two and rejected Item One.  (I only question whether he's aware of it, because he's questioning me about my "subjective experiences" without seeming to realize that, according to Josh F's answer, gender is also a subjective experience.) 

 

I very clearly reject 1 and 2.  Transgender is not a "medical" reality, nor does anyone need their feelings confirmed through a brainscan.  The later point being quite unphilosophical, since no one NEED do anything to prove anything about themselves to someone else.  Being born physically with both sexes is called a hermaphordite or intersexed (since the prior might sound offensive to some).  

 

Did you at all understand or even read anything else I wrote?  I feel like it clearly refuted all your points articulately, and yet you just keep repeating them and not addressing the challenges.  This is not how philosophy works.  No comment on the white guy "acting black" metaphor, or any other point.  Just repeat and repeat... thats tautology not philosophy.  

 

And yes, obviously it is subjective, one can not have an objective identity.

[MMX2010]

Again, since you seem comfortable repeating points again and again:  transgender is not a "medical" reality.  Thats an argument you made up.  And yes, if you started to wear a dress and put on makeup you would be transgender, absolutely.  Thats what it means. 

I very clearly reject 1 and 2.  Transgender is not a "medical" reality, nor does anyone need their feelings confirmed through a brainscan.  The later point being quite unphilosophical, since no one NEED do anything to prove anything about themselves to someone else.  Being born physically with both sexes is called a hermaphordite or intersexed (since the prior might sound offensive to some).  

 

Did you at all understand or even read anything else I wrote?  I feel like it clearly refuted all your points articulately, and yet you just keep repeating them and not addressing the challenges.  This is not how philosophy works.  No comment on the white guy "acting black" metaphor, or any other point.  Just repeat and repeat... thats tautology not philosophy.  

 

And yes, obviously it is subjective, one can not have an objective identity.

 

I posted the following to iHuman. 

 

Declaring Gender to be a subjective experience has many philosophical consequences.  (1) To declare that your own feelings about your gender are subjective is to universalize that "Anyone's feelings about their gender are subjective."  (2) To declare that, "No one is allowed to look down upon my feelings about my gender." is to universalize that "No one is allowed to look down upon anyone's feelings about their gender."  (3) To declare that "Gender is purely subjective." is to declare that "No one has to scientifically explain, rationalize, justify their experiences of their own gender." 

 

Do you agree with all of these? 

 

If so, I experience pro-transgender as a social movement, because the majority of pro-transgender people simultaneously: (1) Argue that gender is purely subjective and (2) Violate every one of the blue-colored implications above. 

[Psychophant]

Again, since you seem comfortable repeating points again and again:  transgender is not a "medical" reality.  Thats an argument you made up.  And yes, if you started to wear a dress and put on makeup you would be transgender, absolutely.  Thats what it means.

 

 

Nope, I like to wear skirts and tights and like the colour pink but I identify as a freestyler. There are more extreme forms of freestylers out there who could be confused with a tranny. Who is the women folk to judge if they wear trousers suits, bow-ties and sneakers nowadays? Even if you put the objective nature of gendered clothing aside, they cannot criticise men for being freestylers themself without being hypocrites.

 

I also take an active stand against sexism against men by doing so. By not catering to the majority of women´s preference in men I also fight gynocentrism.

[Mister Mister]

  Wow this is really a fascinating topic.  A lot of good points being made all around, I have learned a lot.  Though I don't entirely understand the hostility about this subject from some people on this forum.  I have known a few trans people, most of them are very nice people, one of them violent and dysfunctional, all of them seem to show symptoms of some childhood trauma though causality is hard to pinpoint here, as the shame such people are subjected to can be quite severe.   I think from what I have read I am confident about the following: Sex is an obvious biological reality - a person grows from the synthesis of a sperm and an egg, and some humans make sperm and some humans make eggs.  Patterns of behavior associated with sex called gender seem to have SOME basis in biology, and SOME basis in irrational cultural beliefs primarily imprinted through parenting, and secondly through social pressure as the child grows up, spends time with other kids/families, goes to school, etc... At the same time, there ARE outliers, people who do not clearly fit biologically into either sex/gender.  They may not clearly have a particular set of genitals, or though they may have one set of genitals, they may also have the neurological characteristics associated with the other sex.  Depending on the parenting style, and to what extent the child's true self conflicts with certain cultural beliefs about gender, the child is likely to encounter abuse as a result of this conflict.

 

  So while I think there is scientific basis that there are people born with one set of genitals who might think/feel more like people with the other set of genitals, I think the issue is in separating the true self, identity, from the confusion around parental/societal shaming around not conforming to a set of behavior consistent with societies' fucked up ideas about gender to begin with.  The danger, and my concern would be that a person might seek external solutions to an internal problem. believing that sexy dresses, heels, makeup, (in the case of a trans woman for example), hormones, or genital-altering surgery, will ease their pain by making them appear to OTHERS in a way that is consistent with a social concept of sex/gender.  Because society already has confusion about gender, many of these gender-presentations along with the change in others behavior they may evoke, are already irrational, so I'm not sure that this is t.  So I think it would be important for such people to really be comfortable with who they are, to deal with any childhood trauma especially relating to sex and gender, and to love themselves, before seeking to alter themselves biologically or change shallow details in their appearance.

[iHuman]

I posted the following to iHuman. 

 

Declaring Gender to be a subjective experience has many philosophical consequences.  (1) To declare that your own feelings about your gender are subjective is to universalize that "Anyone's feelings about their gender are subjective."  (2) To declare that, "No one is allowed to look down upon my feelings about my gender." is to universalize that "No one is allowed to look down upon anyone's feelings about their gender."  (3) To declare that "Gender is purely subjective." is to declare that "No one has to scientifically explain, rationalize, justify their experiences of their own gender." 

 

Do you agree with all of these? 

 

If so, I experience pro-transgender as a social movement, because the majority of pro-transgender people simultaneously: (1) Argue that gender is purely subjective and (2) Violate every one of the blue-colored implications above. 

 

It is very late and I need to get some rest so I will keep this short.

(I will try to post more when i get the time to)

 

No, I do not Agree with all of that.

[Revanna]

  Wow this is really a fascinating topic.  A lot of good points being made all around, I have learned a lot.  Though I don't entirely understand the hostility about this subject from some people on this forum.  I have known a few trans people, most of them are very nice people, one of them violent and dysfunctional, all of them seem to show symptoms of some childhood trauma though causality is hard to pinpoint here, as the shame such people are subjected to can be quite severe. 

 

  I think from what I have read I am confident about the following: Sex is an obvious biological reality - a person grows from the synthesis of a sperm and an egg, and some humans make sperm and some humans make eggs.  Patterns of behavior associated with sex called gender seem to have SOME basis in biology, and SOME basis in irrational cultural beliefs primarily imprinted through parenting, and secondly through social pressure as the child grows up, spends time with other kids/families, goes to school, etc... At the same time, there ARE outliers, people who do not clearly fit biologically into either sex/gender.  They may not clearly have a particular set of genitals, or though they may have one set of genitals, they may also have the neurological characteristics associated with the other sex.  Depending on the parenting style, and to what extent the child's true self conflicts with certain cultural beliefs about gender, the child is likely to encounter abuse as a result of this conflict.

 

  So while I think there is scientific basis that there are people born with one set of genitals who might think/feel more like people with the other set of genitals, I think the issue is in separating the true self, identity, from the confusion around parental/societal shaming around not conforming to a set of behavior consistent with societies' fucked up ideas about gender to begin with.  The danger, and my concern would be that a person might seek external solutions to an internal problem. believing that sexy dresses, heels, makeup, (in the case of a trans woman for example), hormones, or genital-altering surgery, will ease their pain by making them appear to OTHERS in a way that is consistent with a social concept of sex/gender.  Because society already has confusion about gender, many of these gender-presentations along with the change in others behavior they may evoke, are already irrational, so I'm not sure that this is t.  So I think it would be important for such people to really be comfortable with who they are, to deal with any childhood trauma especially relating to sex and gender, and to love themselves, before seeking to alter themselves biologically or change shallow details in their appearance.

 

 

While I did not read the entire thread, I guess I'll give replying to these a shot.

Please keep in mind that I'm rather clumsy and uncomfortable with writing one-piece text posts and am much more of a chitty-chat person, so I might be missing some points to address or not make the conjunction as apparent as I should in some cases <_<

 

First off, I will obviously be speaking from my own point of view, as somebody who's affected by this and considers herself female: Now, this is my self-consideration and image, because I feel it resonates with me - how exactly, god knows (..or rather doesn't), but what I mean by it is that being referred to and viewed as female by people I know is the only way of reference that comes natural to me, read: "not forced in accepting as a reference to me and who I am", if that makes any sense.

 

 

Childhood Trauma:

 

Hostility is a very common thing towards anyone who's breaking out of the box that is considered "normal" or "proper", and a presumable guy raising their voice to be seen and treated as female will logically get a lot of frowns and, in many cases, distrust thrown at them and so people will natural keep their distance or show presumably-negative patterns around them, even though they may solely be wondering about what exactly is the matter; now, while in itself and for a moment, this doesn't do all-too much, people tend to get into that routine of "othering" one that is in such a situation, and walking up to them in an attempt to solve that will also often be taken as a rather offensive measure - keep in mind we're talking childhood or teenage here, so people are not exactly fond of being told that they basically got your entire point wrong and should please reconsider what you told them in another way that is practically "dictated" to them. They lack the understanding because it's an alien concept to them, because schools like to keep it in the closet and grave and whatnot else hidden wherever they can because it'd mean confrontation and -obviously- outraged parents, mainly religious ones at that, and as we all know religion is a very special good that the state seeks to pet and caress wherever possible and "no believe is wrong" and all the other relative moral crap.

Needless to say, many parents aren't exactly more educated than the other bullying children at school, so it shouldn't be a surprise that many a "trans"folk suffer from abuse at a consistent rate and all-around the clock; that is, speaking from my own and friends' and acquaintances' experiences - sure, there are ones that find themselves in a good place aswell but since we all know how practically neurotic our dear society and state are, that should come with no surprise; it's not like child abuse was a very unexplored ground around here, either, so you can simply see the "trans" aspect as an additional kicker for the already-pissed off parents and suddenly it all makes sense.. <_<

 

 

Gender/Sex and Patterning:

 

Firstly yes, sex is considered as only the physical reproductive and secondary sexual traits of one's body while gender is the "all around that society makes it" - we are given the sex and we are taught the gender, so to speak.

Now, does that mean that gender is a set framework that you have to strictly operate in in order to consider yourself either male or female? Obviously not - nobody would really consider an unshaven overweight tomboy as particularly feminine for as far as society's education goes, but yet you wouldn't argue that they are female, would you? For that there's mostly one common belief or form of reasoning behind it: people go by another's (obvious) sexual characteristics, simply refer to the person in question as female due to them apparently being equipped with a pair of breasts and a lack of a penis, then widening the "gender" aspect for themselves subconsciously due to their "sex=gender" belief, now including not only what education and media told them but also what they saw with their own eyes and inflating both categories.

With that natural inflation of to both of the classical sex and gender norms we'll eventually arrive at a point where ambigious or opposite-sex characteristics will still perfectly fit in what was originally "designed to be the opposite" (which is where I believe the entire agender/fluid comes into play), making categorizing people harder by the day and nurturing the common mindset that "trans"folk are "trapping" the average white male people around them into believing they are something that they "are not".

As a natural sign for those considering themselves "trans" you will also obviously find a heightened interest in what is considered the "exclusives" among the two classical genders of male and female, by your example, "sexy dresses, heels, makeup (for MtFs)" - where this motivation ultimately comes from varies by person, just as it would with the average "cis"people; I for one really enjoy relatively high heels because I actually find them natural to walk in (speaking 6-10cm), so implying it's "for the sex appeal to overcome internal issues" sounds to me like you'd question every sneaker wearer's running speed because they /obviously/ seek to overcome it by footwear (I'm not meaning this to sound offensive, I'm just trying to make a direct comparison for what I get from your post) - sure, there will be people that wear sneakers because they like to run or feel like it makes them better at it, but there'll also be people that do it just for the comfort, which I would argue makes up for the largest part of them, actually.

 

As far as "doing all those things to alter other peoples' perspective of them" goes.. no.

That's actually a rather uncommon thing, at least for the people I conversate with - for me it was this simple: I felt like things about my body were off at like, the age of 4, and I'd argue I was a rather intelligent child (then again, who wouldn't..). I didn't want to grow up and be tall like my father, I didn't want to grow a beard and I didn't want to have a penis - I wasn't exposed to the entire sex ED and whatnot or gender normes and behaviouristics at the time but I felt I needed those things to change and to prevent them if that was possible in any way, and I voiced those concerns. Needless to say, the feedback was rather.. discouraging, but I stuck with it, because that's how I honestly felt.

Another thing about hormones is also that they are not "just there to please others" (and really, hearing those things is like.. rather offensive to me, to be honest :/) - they do a whole lot of things; firstly, I really really love the farm and fuzzy feeling of growing breasts, knowing that my skin's getting softer and all that other stuff, and I really wouldn't want to miss it. Secondly, estrogen and testosterone are not just responsible for how your body looks and feels but also how you operate and feel - as an example, I always felt horribly lethargic while on testosterone (or, well, without HRT), and that's a very common thing for "trans"people - their birth-given hormones are doing exactly what they shouldn't to their psyche and while I do not have any scientific proof for that, I can say that is honest how it feels; getting on estrogen has made me feel a lot more at ease about my body, enabled me to work things out more calmly and whatnot. Sure, that's also not a thing applying to everybody out there, but so is for just about anything, isn't it <_<

 

 

 

Now, I'd like to give this a(n even more) personal note by saying that I honestly do not enjoy reading all the "scientizing" about the whole topic because I feel a lot of people take it too far and reduce "us" to just a pile of neurotic and delusional symptoms.. yes, there are delusions within the "trans" community, yes there are neurotic people, but so are they everywhere else in just the same relative quantity, so I do not think that that is what one should focus on; then again, I view this from an interpersonal perspective where I want people to pay an equally decent amount of respect to "us", so that's why I'm making all those comparisons - I honestly don't feel like "trans" people are any special or different from "normal" ones on any personal level whatsoever; people are people, whether they have a less common deficiency than the others or not..

 

** Sorry if I ended up writing a lot of unconnected jibberish, walls of text make me kind of wonky <_< ** Oh yeah, if you have any specific questions, go forth and ask them at any time, I guess **

[Mister Mister]

^  Thank you, I really appreciate your response, and I am embarrassed for speaking so confidently out of ignorance.  I have to read what you wrote again and think about it some more.

[iHuman]

Excellent post Revanna.

 

edit: Here is a old but good article I found on Gender Disphoria that may prove useful in explaining some things it does not cover a few aspects but does cover much.

 

http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

[Josh F]

I posted the following to iHuman. 

 

Declaring Gender to be a subjective experience has many philosophical consequences.  (1) To declare that your own feelings about your gender are subjective is to universalize that "Anyone's feelings about their gender are subjective."  (2) To declare that, "No one is allowed to look down upon my feelings about my gender." is to universalize that "No one is allowed to look down upon anyone's feelings about their gender."  (3) To declare that "Gender is purely subjective." is to declare that "No one has to scientifically explain, rationalize, justify their experiences of their own gender." 

 

Do you agree with all of these? 

 

If so, I experience pro-transgender as a social movement, because the majority of pro-transgender people simultaneously: (1) Argue that gender is purely subjective and (2) Violate every one of the blue-colored implications above. 

Well now we're getting into it, excellent points and thank you.  

 

I agree, in general, with all your points here with maybe a slight rewording. 1.  Your gender identity is subjective, 2. There is no reason to be hostile or bigoted towards someone for their gender.  To point 3, this applies to more than gender, as no one ever has to justify any choice they make which does not violate the NAP.  

 

The origins of a gender identity are complex.  Amongst them are biological factors, including your sex (male, female, hermaphrodite or intersexed), your brain chemistry, your hormones, birth defects, etc.  Additionally environmental factors, such as traumatic brain injuries, botched circumcisions, sexual or physical abuse.  And lastly, cultural factors, like how gender rolls are defined, which vary throughout cultures and time.  These observable (scientific) phenomenon can all contribute towards the determination of one's gender: including the one you submitted Paragon Male.  

 

To your last point, many supporters of queer theory might, for example, dismiss you as being a privileged heterosexual man.  I disagree with this practice and think it could use serious consideration.  I can understand how Queer Theory has been coopted by political ideologues and non-philosphical rhetoric, not unlike the Tea Party for example.  There are many people, however, who do not share these radicalized perspectives.  I've recently moved and for whatever reason a majority of my new friends so far have been gay.  Its been enlightening studying this subject and discussing these issues with them honestly, because these particular people are not from some lefty American University and haven't been politicized/brainwashed into the whole Social Justice Warrior paradigm.  

 

In fact, you would have loved this, two gay friends from S America and I were in an argument with an American "queer" woman (experimentally bisexual).  Very much your typical Social Justice Warrior LGBT Feminist, still in college.  And it was great to see these two gay guys disagreeing with her on almost every single point she made about the idea of privilege and special laws "protecting" people.  

[iHuman]

 

 

Josh F: The origins of a gender identity are complex.  Amongst them are biological factors, including your sex (male, female, hermaphrodite or intersexed), your brain chemistry, your hormones, birth defects, etc.  Additionally environmental factors, such as traumatic brain injuries, botched circumcisions, sexual or physical abuse.  And lastly, cultural factors, like how gender rolls are defined, which vary throughout cultures and time.  These observable (scientific) phenomenon can all contribute towards the determination of one's gender: including the one you submitted Paragon Male.

 

Just a friendly FYI Hermaphrodite & Intersexed are 2 words for the same thing, currently the word Intersexed is preferred due to the current association of the word Hermaphrodite being used in more of a negative/polarizing context by media etc.

 

 

 

Josh F: In fact, you would have loved this, two gay friends from S America and I were in an argument with an American "queer" woman (experimentally bisexual).  Very much your typical Social Justice Warrior LGBT Feminist, still in college.  And it was great to see these two gay guys disagreeing with her on almost every single point she made about the idea of privilege and special laws "protecting" people.

 

Most Intersexed and Transgendered have a strong dislike for Radical Feminists, they (Radical Feminists) tend view us as incredibly loathsome freaks of nature that are somehow encroaching on "Their Entitlements" (far worse than they view Males fyi).

[Josh F]

Just a friendly FYI Hermaphrodite & Intersexed are 2 words for the same thing, currently the word Intersexed is preferred due to the current association of the word Hermaphrodite being used in more of a negative/polarizing context by media etc.

 

 

 

 

Most Intersexed and Transgendered have a strong dislike for Radical Feminists, they (Radical Feminists) tend view us as incredibly loathsome freaks of nature that are somehow encroaching on "Their Entitlements" (far worse than they view Males fyi).

Yeah I've seen some of that stuff. My understanding is that LGBT is especially like on the 'T' as well. 

[iHuman]

Yeah I've seen some of that stuff. My understanding is that LGBT is especially like on the 'T' as well. 

Oddly enough the T (& I but we don't get listed) side often gets Ridicule from many on the LGB sides, particularly the feminist LB sides.

[Josh F]

Right.  That was a typo, instead of 'like' I meant 'light'.  The Irony is more than just annoying, its a kind of proof that 'privilege' emerges within any group and isn't limited to white men.  

[iHuman]

Indeed, yet the problem is trying to explain that to people (and actually get them to listen) whom have literally been brainwashed from infancy that one group or another are somehow "More Important" than another.

[maieesa]

We are not all female before we differentiate. We are BOTH, having Wolfian tubing and Mullerian tubing.  However, developing female genitalia is sort of a default setting, in cases in which something disrupts the normal levels of hormones sufficient to trigger the male genitalia development, the mullerian tubing atrophies and the Wolfian remains becoming a womb and falloian tubes, etc, to simplify.  There are so many anomolies and variations in genitalia/gendertyping that make the american dual gender system seem primitive.  It is dismissive, small-minded.

For example:  "Boys with an XY karyotype who are born with a cloacal exstrophy (where they are either partly or completely missing a penis) are typically changed surgically into “girls” just after birth, and are given female hormone therapy and counseling. However, about half of these new girls later determine that they are really boys, and change their social gender when they become teenagers or adults. (Bao, Gooren 2006)" 

This article is quite informative:

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

also please refer to:

http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

[iHuman]

We are not all female before we differentiate. We are BOTH, having Wolfian tubing and Mullerian tubing.  However, developing female genitalia is sort of a default setting, in cases in which something disrupts the normal levels of hormones sufficient to trigger the male genitalia development, the mullerian tubing atrophies and the Wolfian remains becoming a womb and falloian tubes, etc, to simplify. There are so many anomolies and variations in genitalia/gendertyping that make the american dual gender system seem primitive.  It is dismissive, small-minded.

 

 

 

 

For example:  "Boys with an XY karyotype who are born with a cloacal exstrophy (where they are either partly or completely missing a penis) are typically changed surgically into “girls” just after birth, and are given female hormone therapy and counseling. However, about half of these new girls later determine that they are really boys, and change their social gender when they become teenagers or adults. (Bao, Gooren 2006)" 

This article is quite informative:

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

also please refer to:

http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

 

Well Put.

 

And I Agree Completely that the Binary gender system is not only Primitive, but about as asinine as saying you know their are X number of Millions of color variations visible to the human eye, but you will only allow Black & White to Exist.

 

Not only is it Dismissive and Small Minded but it is also Forcing your own views on everyone else and usually via the government's monopoly on force. (Tyrannical to an extent if you will)

 

From what "Little" (and I do mean Little) Information I have been able to find out about myself, I was Born physically Both Male and Female, Yet as an Infant I was Surgically Altered to make me fit in 1 of 2 category's, quite possibly with little or no input/permission etc from my parents.

 

At the same time the Societal System has also nonsensically deemed that even discussing such "Abnormalities" should be considered "Taboo" and require Shame & Stigma for even mentioning or simply having been born that way.

 

Its as Idiotic as doing the same over Skin Pigmentation.

[MMX2010]

Article about 17 year old transgender who commits suicide by jumping in front of an 18-wheeler.

 

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/12/30/transgender-teen-death-means-something/21059923/

 

Transgender teen: 'My death needs to mean something'

 

Why we wrote about this: "As the mother of teenagers, my heart breaks for this family," said Enquirer Editor Carolyn Washburn. "But this suicide took place in a very public place and manner; we needed to explain what happened. And it raises important issues we hope will prompt conversations in families throughout our region."

 

In life, Leelah Alcorn felt alone. Born male, she feared she would never be the woman she felt like inside.

 

In death, the transgender 17-year-old - born Josh Alcorn - wanted to make sure others never felt that way she did.

 

"The only way I will rest in peace is if one day transgender people aren't treated the way I was, they're treated like humans, with valid feelings and human rights," Alcorn wrote in a post on the social media blog site Tumblr. 

 

"My death needs to mean something," she wrote in the post, which she scheduled to appear the day after her death.

 

That plea marked her final public words.

 

On Sunday, just before 2:30 a.m., Alcorn walked 4 miles from her middle-class Kings Mills neighborhood with its views of Kings Island to Interstate 71. There, she was struck and killed by a tractor-trailer. The highway was closed for more than a hour.

 

By Tuesday evening, Leelah's story had become a worldwide story - one of how transgender teens often feel alone and afraid. The hashtag #LeelahAlcorn was topping Twitter; news sites worldwide had picked up the story; and someone had even created a Wikipedia page for Alcorn.

 

The State Highway Patrol continues to investigate; no charges have been filed. Her body was sent to the Montgomery County coroner for an autopsy, which will take several weeks.

 

Alcorn's family declined to comment to The Enquirer. In a statement via the Kings Local School District, the family requested privacy.

 

Alcorn's mother, Carla Wood Alcorn, wrote on Facebook Sunday, "My sweet 16-year-old son, Joshua Ryan Alcorn, went home to Heaven this morning. He was out for an early morning walk and was hit by a truck. Thank you for the messages and kindness and concern you have sent our way. Please continue to keep us in your prayers." The post has since been taken down.

 

According to the school statement, Alcorn attended Kings schools and was most recently enrolled as an 11th grader at the Ohio Virtual Academy, an online school.

 

"Joshua Alcorn was a sweet, talented, tender-hearted 17-year-old," the statement from Kings read. Counselors will be available when students return from winter break.

 

Before her death, Alcorn scheduled her note to post on her Tumblr blog at 5:30 p.m. the day of her death. A note titled "Sorry" came later. In it she told her younger brother and sisters she loved them. She thanked her friend Abby Jones for "dealing with my pathetic problems." And she told her mom and dad, "You just can't control other people like that."

 

Forty-eight hours after the first note was posted on Tumblr, it had 82,272 views.

 

There are no national statistics about how many transgender people commit suicide, partly because it's not always known.

In 2010, the National Center for Transgender Equality and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force reported 41 percent of 7,000 transgender people surveyed had attempted suicide.

 

An analysis of the survey responses by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and UCLA Law School's Williams Institute last January showed transgenders who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization or violence have a higher risk of attempting suicide.

 

Cincinnati City Councilman Chris Seelbach, the city's first openly gay councilman, has taken on Alcorn's cause.  In a post on Facebook - shared more than 4,700 times - Seelbach said Alcorn's death shows just how hard it is to be a transgender today in the U.S.

 

"By reading her letter, Leelah makes it clear she wants her death to, in some ways, help 'trans civil rights movements,'" he wrote.

 

A Kings Island caricaturist

 

Jones met Alcorn last spring when Alcorn, a talented artist, applied to work as a caricaturist at Kings Island.

 

Alcorn's work was the best of any new employee. They drew caricatures of each other and a friendship took root.

 

"She was super bubbly and upbeat, with a really brash sense of humor; she could make anyone laugh," said Jones, 17, of Milford.

Jones drew Alcorn as Elsa from "Frozen."

 

"It was her favorite thing ever," Jones said.

 

Living far from each other, they would get together before and after work. They saw "Fault in Our Stars." They got ice cream.

 

They texted. A lot.

 

During late-night texting in July, Alcorn wrote, "I have something to tell you."

 

She came out as transgender.

 

The whole story spilled. Jones recounted Alcorn's story, much the way Alcorn herself talked in her online note.

 

Freshman year of high school, Alcorn came out as gay as a way to transition. Her friends were kind. She wrote her family "wanted me to be their perfect little straight Christian boy, and that's obviously not what I wanted."

 

She had never really understood what she was feeling. At 14, she finally understood. But, she said, her family didn't understand.

 

"She would get really down, there was just no talking her out of it," Jones said. "She always said, 'Nothing is going to get better, I am never going to transition successfully, I am never going to be the pretty girl I want to be.' "

 

Shane Morgan, founder and chair of TransOhio, which provides education and advocacy, said 2014 has been a year filled with progress for transgender people.

 

"If we look back at 2014 there have been really incredible changes and liberation for trans people across the world," Morgan said. "There were prominent faces on TV and on the cover of Time and that is all fantastic. But there have been a lot of murders of trans people this year; trans people are still being victimized and still being disrespected.

 

"Nobody should commit suicide because of who they are," Morgan said. "With as much change as there has been, there is still much to do."

 

Help for the transgendered or those considering suicide

 

----------------------------------

 

I almost posted in the comments section, "Today, I'm going to imagine an alternate version of America where, in 1946, a 17 year old man whom no one in 2015 has ever heard of committed suicide by jumping in front of a train.  The next day, his suicide note was found, which read, 'The only way I can rest in peace is if the mistreatment of Blacks stops.  I need my death to mean something!  Fix society, please!'  Signed, Martin Luther King, Jr." 

 

Decided to post the article in this thread instead. 

[MMX2010]

Article reacting to Leelah Alcorn's suicide. 

 

The takeaway message is: "In the vast majority of cases, children who say they’re transgender and act that way change their minds about being the opposite sex—if you just leave them alone. According to a recent Hastings Center report, gender dysphoria does not persist into adulthood in up to 73 to 94 percent of cases  (citing the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, which noted dysphoria continuing in only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls.) Here’s just one testimonial on that experience."

 

 

-------------------

 

Link to full article here: http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/09/leelahs-law-is-bad-law-and-bad-medicine/

[iHuman]

Article reacting to Leelah Alcorn's suicide. 

 

The takeaway message is: "In the vast majority of cases, children who say they’re transgender and act that way change their minds about being the opposite sex—if you just leave them alone. According to a recent Hastings Center report, gender dysphoria does not persist into adulthood in up to 73 to 94 percent of cases  (citing the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, which noted dysphoria continuing in only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls.) Here’s just one testimonial on that experience."

 

 

-------------------

 

Link to full article here: http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/09/leelahs-law-is-bad-law-and-bad-medicine/

 

A Fallacy disproven more times than the author of it can likely count.

[MMX2010]

A Fallacy disproven more times than the author of it can likely count.

 

^^^^^  Not an argument. 

 

From the same article, "Heyer’s blog cites a national survey of more than 6,500 transgenders that asked the question, “Have you tried to commit suicide?” Forty-one percent answered, “Yes.” That’s astonishingly more than the national average of less than 2 percent. Virtually all people who attempt suicide are suffering from some form of mental disorder or depression. So it should seem clear that blaming society for that depression will not address the dysphoria and depression an individual feels."

 

Short summary: The national average of suicide attempts is less than 2 percent, and the mental health community (as well as common sense) accepts, "Those who attempt suicide are suffering from some form of mental illness."  The national average of suicide attempts among transgenders is 41 percent, so the mental health community (as well as common sense) should also accept that, "Those who are transgender are suffering from some sort of mental illness." 

[neeeel]

saying "I just knew I was meant to be X" is delusional thinking.

 

There is no plan as to what you will be or how you will turn out. sperm fertilises egg, and a human with certain characteristics is the result. There is no way its "supposed to be" . 

 

There is no little homunculus that was assigned a body, and sometimes this homunculus gets a wrong body. Its like, when you look at a tree, and some trees are straight and tall, others go all over the place. Was the tree meant to be straight and tall? No. That is the way the tree grew. 

 

 

I have no problem with someone who wants to put themselves in another box, if that what they feel they need. They may identify more strongly with one group than another, for various reasons. But its just like wanting to be called james instead of brian, or scottish instead of english. The vast majority of boxes and groups are socially constructed, made up things.

[Funkmaster_A]

This topic has always been confusing to me, because the politically correct crowd has done a complete 180 on this issue, but, to my knowledge, no one from the politically correct crowd has said anything like "oh, we were wrong and our opposition was right."

 

It wasn't that long ago when if you thought it was natural for little boys to like the color blue and action figures and dump trucks, and for little girls to like the color pink and dollhouses and tea parties, then you were labelled sexist or traditionalist.  However, now if I observe a kid playing with dollhouses, wearing dresses, and carrying a little purse, I'm supposed to understand that the kid is a girl, regardles of whether the kid has male or female anatomy?

 

It used to be sexist to think that the sexes have mental differences, but now if I observe someone with the "mentality of a woman," I need to think that the person must be a woman, or else I'm transphobic?

 

Again, science sometimes reveals new things or changes in understanding, I get that.  But the "crowd" hasn't remotely come out and said that they were wrong.  And that sets off my bullshit detector.

[iHuman]

saying "I just knew I was meant to be X" is delusional thinking.

 

There is no plan as to what you will be or how you will turn out. sperm fertilises egg, and a human with certain characteristics is the result. There is no way its "supposed to be" . 

 

There is no little homunculus that was assigned a body, and sometimes this homunculus gets a wrong body. Its like, when you look at a tree, and some trees are straight and tall, others go all over the place. Was the tree meant to be straight and tall? No. That is the way the tree grew. 

 

 

I have no problem with someone who wants to put themselves in another box, if that what they feel they need. They may identify more strongly with one group than another, for various reasons. But its just like wanting to be called james instead of brian, or scottish instead of english. The vast majority of boxes and groups are socially constructed, made up things.

 

 

that is not how it works.

 

The 2 Biggest problems with Gender Disphoria are "Misconceptions" Created by Social Stigmas/BS as well as the Inability of many to be able to accurately describe it (in a way that will be understood) to people who don't have it.

 

for a long time similar was true of Depression, and in some respects Gender Disphoria is quite similar.

 

Rather than a biological malfunction in production or efficiency of the usage of vital chemicals needed to function properly it is a case of 1 (the Primary one) becoming toxic to you when it shouldn't have (*often caused by exposure of your mother to certain kinds of chemicals/medications before your birth).

 

The full effects of Gender Disphoria usually doesn't start until the body starts producing hormones at puberty, but in a number of cases has been proven to have started in at a much younger age (attributed to a heightened sensitivity & or early puberty).

 

It isn't a matter of "I just knew I was meant to be X" as you said, it's a matter of "Everything about myself  feels wrong, and I Naturally Behave & Think Like X and don't know why." the "I just knew I was meant to be X" part you mention is only ever said by those who have found out what is wrong and lack the propper language skills or drive to explain it in a way that others will understand.

 

even if you do have the ability and drive to explain it well, the vast majority to avoid using their grey matter will ignore what you say in favor of sticking with the "popular" misconceptions and societal/religious views/bs regardless of how wrong they might be.

 

* "Normally" during Pregnancy a fetus is exposed at a certain stage to the correct hormonal balance for their gender to synchronize the brain development with the body, when this happens correctly@ a balance in the opposite direction will have a toxic effect on the person, those who are transgendered for one reason or another were exposed to the wrong balance and end up with their natural hormone balance when it kicks in (puberty) begins having toxic effects on them, It often manifests in (one several or all of) Extreme Stress (without any reason/cause) Extreme Depression/Discomfort with themselves and an overall crushing feeling of "wrongness".

 

@ Exception being those born Intersexed (Physically Both Genders) very little modern research has been done on this/what causes it.

[iHuman]

^^^^^  Not an argument. 

 

From the same article, "Heyer’s blog cites a national survey of more than 6,500 transgenders that asked the question, “Have you tried to commit suicide?” Forty-one percent answered, “Yes.” That’s astonishingly more than the national average of less than 2 percent. Virtually all people who attempt suicide are suffering from some form of mental disorder or depression. So it should seem clear that blaming society for that depression will not address the dysphoria and depression an individual feels."

 

Short summary: The national average of suicide attempts is less than 2 percent, and the mental health community (as well as common sense) accepts, "Those who attempt suicide are suffering from some form of mental illness."  The national average of suicide attempts among transgenders is 41 percent, so the mental health community (as well as common sense) should also accept that, "Those who are transgender are suffering from some sort of mental illness." 

 

ok, for one, they don't "Blame" society "for" the problem, the only blame aimed at society is the misconceptions and outright bs (not to mention needless ridicule & stigma that is a result) that is popularized as "fact" regarding the issue.

 

two, It is not a "Mental Illness" it is a chemical imbalance/mismatch/allergy caused during fetal development.

 

three, it cannot be corrected with psychological therapies, and does not "go away" without correcting the chemical problem (if you are being given a toxin that is making you ill is it just a "Mental Problem"? and will having someone "talk to you" while you are still being given that toxin correct the problem?)

 

(see my above post for more information.) 

 

on the Suicide rates it is mostly due to the ridicule & stigma generated by the misconceptions that society popularizes piled on top of the problems that Gender Disphoria causes them.

 

now I know all to well that to dig up any credible information on this topic is very difficult in the sea of utter garbage their is out there on it, hence why I am sharing my own research on it.

 

This is not some pile of Politically Correct Nonsense, I have no time for that garbage.

[MMX2010]

on the Suicide rates it is mostly due to the ridicule & stigma generated by the misconceptions that society popularizes piled on top of the problems that Gender Disphoria causes them.

 

 

In a seemingly unrelated incident, "ShirtGate" happened when scientist Matthew Taylor wore a shirt depicting cartoon drawings of women in BDSM gear while being interviewed for landing a small space craft on a comet.  A feminist named Rose Evelith insinuated that his shirt was largely responsible for the relative lack of women in scientific fields.  (The headline that most exemplifies their complain read: I Don't Care That You Landed A Spacecraft On A Comet: Your Shirt Is Sexist And Ostracizing.)

 

Many women criticized Rose Evelith's message.  Foremost among them was Ana Kasparian, (the same one whom Stefan made fun of about three months ago), who said, "If a shirt was powerful enough to make you give up your pursuit of a job in a science field, then you weren't cut out to be a scientist." 

 

My reaction to your argument is similar to Ana's reaction to Rose's.  If you declare that society's ridicule and stigmas are sufficient enough to drive the suicide rate to over twenty-times the average, then I retort that perhaps transgender people aren't fit enough to educate everyone else about their plight.  Blacks in America during Martin Luther King's era faced far worse ridicule and stigma, but King reacted by protesting against the powerful institutions that created and supported those stigmas: the government and the police. 

 

Alcorn's suicide just strikes me as, "I want to accomplish what King did, but I don't want to do the work that King did."  That's extraordinarily weak, especially in this society that praises individual hard work for politically correct causes.  And I've no respect for anyone who refuses to make something of themselves.  

[neeeel]

that is not how it works.

 

The 2 Biggest problems with Gender Disphoria are "Misconceptions" Created by Social Stigmas/BS as well as the Inability of many to be able to accurately describe it (in a way that will be understood) to people who don't have it.

 

for a long time similar was true of Depression, and in some respects Gender Disphoria is quite similar.

 

Rather than a biological malfunction in production or efficiency of the usage of vital chemicals needed to function properly it is a case of 1 (the Primary one) becoming toxic to you when it shouldn't have (*often caused by exposure of your mother to certain kinds of chemicals/medications before your birth).

 

The full effects of Gender Disphoria usually doesn't start until the body starts producing hormones at puberty, but in a number of cases has been proven to have started in at a much younger age (attributed to a heightened sensitivity & or early puberty).

 

It isn't a matter of "I just knew I was meant to be X" as you said, it's a matter of "Everything about myself  feels wrong, and I Naturally Behave & Think Like X and don't know why." the "I just knew I was meant to be X" part you mention is only ever said by those who have found out what is wrong and lack the propper language skills or drive to explain it in a way that others will understand.

 

even if you do have the ability and drive to explain it well, the vast majority to avoid using their grey matter will ignore what you say in favor of sticking with the "popular" misconceptions and societal/religious views/bs regardless of how wrong they might be.

 

* "Normally" during Pregnancy a fetus is exposed at a certain stage to the correct hormonal balance for their gender to synchronize the brain development with the body, when this happens correctly@ a balance in the opposite direction will have a toxic effect on the person, those who are transgendered for one reason or another were exposed to the wrong balance and end up with their natural hormone balance when it kicks in (puberty) begins having toxic effects on them, It often manifests in (one several or all of) Extreme Stress (without any reason/cause) Extreme Depression/Discomfort with themselves and an overall crushing feeling of "wrongness".

 

@ Exception being those born Intersexed (Physically Both Genders) very little modern research has been done on this/what causes it.

 

If they grew up on a desert island, knowing no other person, would they still feel a crushing sense of wrongness? Wrongness is only in comparison with something else.  "I should be like that, but I am not".

I admit I dont know much about the subject.

[J. D. Stembal]

ok, for one, they don't "Blame" society "for" the problem, the only blame aimed at society is the misconceptions and outright bs (not to mention needless ridicule & stigma that is a result) that is popularized as "fact" regarding the issue.

 

two, It is not a "Mental Illness" it is a chemical imbalance/mismatch/allergy caused during fetal development.

 

three, it cannot be corrected with psychological therapies, and does not "go away" without correcting the chemical problem (if you are being given a toxin that is making you ill is it just a "Mental Problem"? and will having someone "talk to you" while you are still being given that toxin correct the problem?)

 

(see my above post for more information.) 

 

on the Suicide rates it is mostly due to the ridicule & stigma generated by the misconceptions that society popularizes piled on top of the problems that Gender Disphoria causes them.

 

now I know all to well that to dig up any credible information on this topic is very difficult in the sea of utter garbage their is out there on it, hence why I am sharing my own research on it.

 

This is not some pile of Politically Correct Nonsense, I have no time for that garbage.

 

Transgenders don't blame society...

 

...except for social stigmas, bigotry, hatred, and idiotic primitive small-mindedness and a laundry list of negative descriptive words you used in post #160, which I downvoted and encourage others to downvote because all it contains in emotional manipulation.

 

What are these stigmas that are so damaging that transgender suicide rates are so high? I am stigmatized for being white, male and heterosexual. Does that mean society is compelling me to commit suicide? Don't you want to grant people free will?

 

I have great sympathy for what happened to you as an infant. I was also operated on against my will to have my foreskin removed, which has had deleterious effects on me, and probably more than I realize. Please don't get on a soapbox and preach about gender identity being a social construct and then contend that society isn't being blamed collectively. Blame the doctors, blame your parents, but don't unroll this blanket out on which to lay all of the miseries of the transgendered and gender dysphoric on the rest of society. It's unbelievably lazy.

 

What is your argument? What specifically casues transgendered people to be born? Is it a problem? What are some possible solutions?

[iHuman]

Alcorn's suicide just strikes me as, "I want to accomplish what King did, but I don't want to do the work that King did."  That's extraordinarily weak, especially in this society that praises individual hard work for politically correct causes.  And I've no respect for anyone who refuses to make something of themselves.  

 

fair enough, However I was not Defending the Suicide, I was only explaining why the suicide rate among the trangendered is so much higher, you will see more related to this if you read the rest of this post.

 

 

If they grew up on a desert island, knowing no other person, would they still feel a crushing sense of wrongness? Wrongness is only in comparison with something else.  "I should be like that, but I am not".

I admit I dont know much about the subject.

 

yes, the feeling of "wrongness" as I called it would still be there.

 

Transgenders don't blame society...

 

...except for social stigmas, bigotry, hatred, and idiotic primitive small-mindedness and a laundry list of negative descriptive words you used in post #160, which I downvoted and encourage others to downvote because all it contains in emotional manipulation.

 

What are these stigmas that are so damaging that transgender suicide rates are so high? I am stigmatized for being white, male and heterosexual. Does that mean society is compelling me to commit suicide? Don't you want to grant people free will?

 

I have great sympathy for what happened to you as an infant. I was also operated on against my will to have my foreskin removed, which has had deleterious effects on me, and probably more than I realize. Please don't get on a soapbox and preach about gender identity being a social construct and then contend that society isn't being blamed collectively. Blame the doctors, blame your parents, but don't unroll this blanket out on which to lay all of the miseries of the transgendered and gender dysphoric on the rest of society. It's unbelievably lazy.

 

What is your argument? What specifically casues transgendered people to be born? Is it a problem? What are some possible solutions?

 

ok, for one I was not even attempting any "Emotional Manipulations" as you claim, if It came across that way, then I apologize for my poor choice in wording.

 

to understand the the stigmas mentioned you first need to identify the root cause of them in this case it is 99% rooted in ignorance+fear of people whom, rather than on observing/encountering a Transgender Individual for the first time politely ask about it or go and do research about it, instead the ones attaching the stigma react by instantaneously attacking it verbally and or physically, and all to often with the "goal" of causing either severe mental trauma or severe physical damage or even death.

 

often some will go as far as to "stalk" them until the end goal of either the person becoming traumatized to the extent that they are terrified to go outside (often resulting in suicide) or until they get an opportunity to, try to physically abuse them or outright murder them (Murders happen more often than suicide fyi).

 

I would give examples of that but I do not want to be misunderstood to be "Emotionally Manipulating" again when I am not.

 

the general stigma is in the above mentioned small minded individuals being of the opinion that such a difference from their ideal of "Normal" is a "Freak of Nature" and thus must be either forced to conform, made to disappear, or must be Killed.

(Some use Religion as a vehicle for this)

 

the stigma is not the cause of the suicides, the harassment/terrorizing is, which takes its root in those stigmas.

 

"Why not report it to the police?" they do, but as the saying goes "when seconds count, the Police are minutes away" also many police (not all but enough to be a problem) take on the same small minded mentality, "get a gun/taser/pepper spray" many do, often the only one that has any effect as a deterrent is a loaded gun wielded by someone not afraid to use it.

 

"why don't we hear about any of this?" How many Self-Defense uses of a Gun does the Media actually Report on? if it isn't some massacre/other evil deed involving the use of a gun that can be used as a political tool to ban them, the media isn't interested.

 

Edit to add a couple of articles i found on some of the stigma associated with having Gender Disphoria

http://tgmentalhealth.com/tag/bias-and-stigma/

 

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/stigma-stress-transgender-women-men-0522132

 

On Blame, Transgendered & Intersexed Blame no one other than the small minded idiots i mentioned above and the parts of the medical industry that forcibly do the Arbitrary "Assignment" Surgeries on infants, I have said that many times, I don't know where you get the "Everyone else is being blamed" thought line from.

 

What is my argument? no argument per se, i'm only posting on this to provide as accurate information on the subject (in the hopes of lessening the ignorance) as I can.*

 

What Causes Gender Dysphoria & Transgenderism?

See: Post #167

 

On what Causes people to be born Intersex?, little modern research has been done on the "Causes" of it, and a large amount of what has been done up until now to research it is often hypothetical at best.

 

*personally i'm very concerned for the human race with the path it seems to be taking into mindless self-destruction (much like in stef's recent video) I am working to clarify this issue (and others) in an attempt to help steer us away from such a path.

[J. D. Stembal]

I would give examples of that but I do not want to be misunderstood to be "Emotionally Manipulating" again when I am not.

 

Examples would be great, as would statistics and anything else that is not emotionally charged. I specifically objected to post #160 because you used adjectives like tyrannical to describe the persecution of the transgendered and dysphoric. Is the government rounding up and disappearing the transgendered? Where are the gas chambers? You don't have evidence of any such event, so this is an emotionally manipulative statement.

 

You also are using words like small-minded, mindless, primitive, idiotic, and ignorant to describe us!

 

What is my argument? no argument per se, i'm only posting on this to provide as accurate information on the subject (in the hopes of lessening the ignorance) as I can.*

 

*personally i'm very concerned for the human race with the path it seems to be taking into mindless self-destruction (much like in stef's recent video) I am working to clarify this issue (and others) in an attempt to help steer us away from such a path.

 

The implication is that we are perpetuating ignorance in this thread. I posed a few questions to keep the conversaion going in a productive direction, as did MMX. Would you describe us as ignorant?

 

Edit to add a couple of articles i found on some of the stigma associated with having Gender Disphoria

http://tgmentalhealth.com/tag/bias-and-stigma/

 

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/stigma-stress-transgender-women-men-0522132

 

I've heard of men changing their gender to female after marriage and having children, but only two anecdotal examples. I've also heard of a woman taking hormore therapy to become masculine. I've never actually met a transgendered person, except I was once groped against my will by a man who may have been dressed as a woman in Bangkok. I didn't hang around long enough to chat about gender dysphoria, I'm sorry to say.

 

Can we say with any certainty why men decide to become women, especially after having a family? In the article you linked the unidentified man says he was living a lie, and must act to change despite the pain it will bring to his wife and children. Is it possible that he does not want to have a family any more? Perhaps this man never wanted to be tied down witha wife, three children and successful career, or he did not expect to receive so little compassion and appreciation from his family for his contributions. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but it's a possibility that men need to consider.

 

I propose that in some cases transgenderism and dysphoria is a reaction by men to a lack of emotional support offered to them by their families, then later on, everyone else. I recall sometimes wishing to be a woman for a day as a teenager. I sought out a sexual relationship with a male friend in high school. Of course, the rumor got out, and then I went back to dating women after this friend stopped talking to me. I don't feel that I am a gay man, but the thought of being a straight female was very appealing. I cross-dressed on Halloween and other occasions, and grew my hair out very long.

 

Even though I am sexually attracted to women, why did I behave like this when I was younger? Women flocked around me, and I had many female friends and lovers. Did they not want me challenging their womanhood? Was it because they felt I was more beautiful than them? Were they jealous of my subconscious attempts to emulate them?

 

This is total speculation, but I believe there is a strong desire for young men to want to live life as a woman instead, but we are shoehorned into a thankless role as beast of burden that cannot ever feel emotion at an early age.

 

When I brought up the topic of blame, I intended to focus more attention on parents. Parents are to blame for gender dysphoria, not the general society. Parents aren't required to birth their child around doctors or in a hospital where there is a chance the butchers will start fileting genitals with or without parental consent. Circumscision is definitely not required, but it was done to me anyway. Parents have an obligation to support their children emotionally no matter what, and I believe that husbands and wives also have the same obligation to support each other.

 

Going back to the example you linked above, if after twenty years, a husband decides that becoming a woman is really the right path for him, his wife and family should listen to him, try to understand, and support the decision. It's a problematic scenario, to be certain, but why should men be so unheard, misunderstood, and unloved?

[iHuman]

 

Examples would be great, as would statistics and anything else that is not emotionally charged.

 

ok, Raw Statistics only then.

 

Murders: 1 in 12

Stalking & general harassment: 1 in 5

Kicked out of Rented Homes/Apartments for no other reason: 1 in 2

Disowned by Parents & Kicked out of their homes: 1 in 3

Workplace Discrimination; 1 in 6 M-F, 1 in 18 F-M

 

 

I specifically objected to post #160 because you used adjectives like tyrannical to describe the persecution of the transgendered and dysphoric. Is the government rounding up and disappearing the transgendered? Where are the gas chambers? You don't have evidence of any such event, so this is an emotionally manipulative statement.

 

Incorrect word use on my part in that case, which I apologize for it causing misunderstanding.

Was using the term in a non-goverment individual/group sense (thier are groups that are rabidly against Transgendered and Intersexed [most of them classify themselves as Radical Feminists]) 

 

 

 

You also are using words like small-minded, mindless, primitive, idiotic, and ignorant to describe us!

 

No, I was not, If I had I would have specified so, the "Small Minded" description is exclusive to the people who do not bother to even research things and prefer to either create false information or use popular beliefs to go on the attack of anything they deem outside of their view of "What is Normal".

 

 

The implication is that we are perpetuating ignorance in this thread. I posed a few questions to keep the conversaion going in a productive direction, as did MMX. Would you describe us as ignorant?

 

Did I specifically name either of you? No, i did not.

 

 

I've heard of men changing their gender to female after marriage and having children, but only two anecdotal examples. I've also heard of a woman taking hormore therapy to become masculine.

 

Can we say with any certainty why men decide to become women, especially after having a family? In the article you linked the unidentified man says he was living a lie, and must act to change despite the pain it will bring to his wife and children. Is it possible that he does not want to have a family any more? Perhaps this man never wanted to be tied down witha wife, three children and successful career, or he did not expect to receive so little compassion and appreciation from his family for his contributions. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but it's a possibility that men need to consider.

 

 

ok the ones you mentioned at the start are simple to explain.

 

Even Transgendered and Intersex desire to have children & a family, hormone therapy in transgendered usually results in sterility, and Adoption until recently was ruled out due to Gender Disphoria (Gender Identity Disorder as it was then) previously being wrongly classified as a "Mental Illness" as well as various stigmas often attached.

 

Gender Disphoria gets significantly worse with age, when it reaches the point of forcing you to do something about it varies with each individual, it can vary on both the severity and on just how much the individual can tolerate.

(Quite similar to Pain in this respect)

The "Living a Lie" Portion is in reference to their having forced themselves to portray false masculine personality traits for most of their lives when behaving in a way that is considered natural for a female is what comes naturally to them.

 

Not being Honest with a Marriage mate is common due to the way that most are raised to think that being that way requires Shame & Disgust as the primary reactions, It is not that they don't want their family any more, quite the opposite, many fight the Disphoria a good deal longer to save their family's the nightmare that usually is unleashed as a result.

 

 

I propose that in some cases transgenderism and dysphoria is a reaction by men to a lack of emotional support offered to them by their families, then later on, everyone else. I recall sometimes wishing to be a woman for a day as a teenager. I sought out a sexual relationship with a male friend in high school. Of course, the rumor got out, and then I went back to dating women after this friend stopped talking to me. I don't feel that I am a gay man, but the thought of being a straight female was very appealing. I cross-dressed on Halloween and other occasions, and grew my hair out very long.

 

Even though I am sexually attracted to women, why did I behave like this when I was younger? Women flocked around me, and I had many female friends and lovers. Did they not want me challenging their womanhood? Was it because they felt I was more beautiful than them? Were they jealous of my subconscious attempts to emulate them?

 

This is total speculation, but I believe there is a strong desire for young men to want to live life as a woman instead, but we are shoehorned into a thankless role as beast of burden that cannot ever feel emotion at an early age.

 

This has been the case on occasion, but most/all of those are weeded out by simple tests, one of which is a test dose of hormone(s), depending on the reaction they can tell with about 90+% certainty who genuinely has Gender Disphoria and who doesn't.

 

in my own case I was given that test 2 separate times (FYI I didn't always know I was born Intersexed) the first time I went into denial because my upbringing teaching me that having such a "abnormality" was wrong disgusting and shameful, the 2nd time I did as well but not as bad due to a discussion I had with a doctor on it and my "extra parts" having been discovered.

(A long story that I wont go into)

 

 

When I brought up the topic of blame, I intended to focus more attention on parents. Parents are to blame for gender dysphoria, not the general society.

 

Parents aren't required to birth their child around doctors or in a hospital where there is a chance the butchers will start fileting genitals with or without parental consent. Circumscision is definitely not required, but it was done to me anyway. Parents have an obligation to support their children emotionally no matter what, and I believe that husbands and wives also have the same obligation to support each other.

 

I will answer this in 2 parts.

 

well, at first some mistakenly blame parents etc, but they later realize their parents as little control over thier ending up with Gender Disphoria as they did, one kind of parental blame that does stick (and rightly so) however is in the cases of (these are not "usual", but still quite common) when a child/teen talks to thier parents about it and the only response they get varies from the "Disgust/Shame/Ridicule" level to being drug before a Priest, all the way to being Kicked out of the house and disowned (some have been kicked out as young as 12 fyi)

 

the 2nd part applies more to Intersexed but is indeed a glaring problem with the medical industry, and is linked with the close ties of parts of the medical industry to the government(s), and a common error of believing that children are somehow "property" of either parent(s) or the state.

 

Part of it is societally driven to force "Conformity" which is where my negitive comments about society come in, much of it originates in Brittan and before that in Jerusalem (though not necessarily the fault of their people), most other cultures viewed Intersexed (or Hermaphrodites/Two Spirits as some call(ed) us) with Respect rather than the fear that others did, that baseless fear is in my research where the drive to force conformity via surgical mutilations stems from.

 

It is interesting that you should mention Circumcision, that is what my parents told was done to me when I asked why things were "different" down there on myself (Possibly what they had been told as well).

 

 

Going back to the example you linked above, if after twenty years, a husband decides that becoming a woman is really the right path for him, his wife and family should listen to him, try to understand, and support the decision. It's a problematic scenario, to be certain, but why should men be so unheard, misunderstood, and unloved?

 

You have part of it, at least in the area of the "problems" related to the stigmas and so fourth that cause the break up of many family's with one member having Gender Disphoria link right back to what Stef has spoken on at length with regards to how men are treated and viewed, to add to that  female to male trandgendered also have "some" of the same problems, but FAR FAR Less severe and seldom gets tied to them like a ship anchor.

 

EG on that:

If  A Female Wears Male/Masculine Clothes what happens? She "Might" be Accused of being a Tomboy.

If a Male Cross Dresses in Public what is the Reaction? 

 

I'm not saying that their should be blind unconditional acceptance just "because", that would just be ignorance in the opposite direction from what it mostly is now (Also more or less the gist of the Political Correctness BS).

 

I was going to add more but my main goal in this post is to answer your questions, that and this one is getting quite long as it is.

 

please feel free to ask any other questions you have and I will do my best to answer them.

[MMX2010]

The following article discusses trans-racial people and trans-species individuals. 

 

Its primary thesis is that if trans-racialist and otherkin are delusional when they use the exact same justifications as transgender individuals, then transgender individuals have a major problem convincing people that they're legitimately transgender.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/01/16/not-white-in-the-head-the-tumblr-teens-convinced-they-were-born-the-wrong-species-sex-and-even-race/

 

Its secondary thesis is that transgender young people who voluntarily reject society and spend most of their time browsing pro-transgender blogs will be much more likely to identify as transgender than transgender young people who don't voluntarily reject society and therefore spend more time socializing off-line.