acabobie Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 I wish to keep this short as I believe that my beliefs may influence other's responses to this topic. Is what a sentient being(human) believes in a choice? Please discus bellow and I will join in again later!
acabobie Posted July 8, 2014 Author Posted July 8, 2014 This topic has been around for awhile with no large discussion occurring so I will go ahead and place my views. Belief: Something an individual holds to be correct or true. For example: I believe that the world will eventually have a total human population exceeding 8 billion in the future. My particular definition is broad and can pertain to many things. The beliefs may or may not have observable evidence to support the belief. Examples: The belief that the Earth was flat came from limited knowledge, whereas the belief in a rounded Earth came from empiricism (ships gradually dissapearing from sight while sailing on the sea horizon, able to travel in the same direction and manage to sail back to where you started, satellite photography, etc... I feel like I may be too broad in my definition as when talking about something that has a lot to support it, as in a scientific theory, saying I believe in it makes it sound weak, or that I have doubts about it. At the same time I don't want to rule any conversation with an "iron fist" by laying things out what I believe as fact because I know that I know very little. So this is why I have a definition for this word that could apply to many things. It is a way of being humble and open minded to possibilities. I would be interested in hearing suggestions for improving the definition. On the subject of determinism vs free will- I do not believe in determinism. I pull up my earlier statement "I wish to keep this short as I believe that my beliefs may influence other's responses to this topic." lf I believed in determinism I do not see how I could also believe that I could influence anything because with determinism everything is already "set in stone, set in motion" and there would be no such thing as influence, just the illusion of it as we clack clack clack down the predetermined railroad track of the universe. I do not wish to discus this any further because Stefan does not think discussions on this topic is productive, and I agree. If determinism is true, what we do has no meaning or influence.. it was just all the way it was meant to be. Onto what I believe about my question: "Is what a sentient being(human) believes in a choice?" I believe that belief is not a choice (oh how so meta ). I believe that we are influenced by what is around us, our biological programming, and the decisions we make in life that determine what we believe in. Here is a claim; I believe that there is no god, however I did not choose to believe that there was no God.... It was just something that happened as I became exposed to more atheist arguments. I asked myself the question, "Is there a God?" and I responded mentally, "No, there is not." From that point in my life I was no longer a Catholic. If I happened to ask myself the same question just a year earlier without the the experience I had of that year my answer to the same question would have been a resounding. "YES!!" I also do not think that preferences are a choice. I like the color emerald, it is my favorite and I am glad that it is. There are a lot of green things in the world so I am glad I enjoy it. I like only females sexually.. If I were to chose my sexuality I would like to be bisexual or pansexual. Reasoning there is that I would find more aesthetic and erotic beauty in the world of people and it would greatly open up the dating possibilities. Alas I am straight my bros!
jpahmad Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I also do not think that preferences are a choice. I like the color emerald, it is my favorite and I am glad that it is. There are a lot of green things in the world so I am glad I enjoy it. I like only females sexually.. If I were to chose my sexuality I would like to be bisexual or pansexual. Reasoning there is that I would find more aesthetic and erotic beauty in the world of people and it would greatly open up the dating possibilities. Alas I am straight my bros! We have to define "choice" as well. I'll start. "Choice" is simply our reactions to our environment. I like this definition. It is simple, concise, and covers a lot of ground. To expand: to choose = to react choice = reactions to environment By that definition, we do choose our beliefs.
acabobie Posted July 8, 2014 Author Posted July 8, 2014 My definitions to choose= to make a decision. choice= a decision that can be consciously willed for. Example. I do not choose for my heart to beat, that is not a choice, but a biological imperative. Heartbeats are not something that I can will to stop beating just by will alone. I can choose to do other actions that will produce that effect. The heart example with your definition may also work in some form or another. As in the biology of species came from previous choice (selective breeding) I would argue that also natural pressures influenced as in it is hard to be a living large Eukaryota without a heart. With my definition I really doubt there was or is any sentient being(s) that will there to be natural pressures. Could you give an example of what you believe to be choice, and what you believe is not a choice by use of your own definitions?
jpahmad Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Example. I do not choose for my heart to beat, that is not a choice, but a biological imperative. Heartbeats are not something that I can will to stop beating just by will alone. I can choose to do other actions that will produce that effect. Good point. There are two ways I can fix my definition to include involuntary body functions. choice is a conscious reaction to our environment. Or, Our involuntary body functions are actually part of the environment we're born into, so my initial formulation could still hold. Although I think I prefer the first one. Could you give an example of what you believe to be choice, and what you believe is not a choice by use of your own definitions? Choice = I'm hungry, I see an apple, I choose to eat the apple. (I simply reacted to my environment) To explain a little further: My environment makes me hungry (expending energy to deal with gravity) My environment has an apple in it. I can potentially attain the apple and consume it. I choose to eat the apple. Choice = I meet two black people in my entire life, both of whom mugged me(my environment). I then choose to avoid all black people in the future on the belief that they will harm me (this is the reaction). Am I responsible for these choices? Of course I am. I chose them. Not a choice = my environment. (earth, gravity, the elements, having to breath, dealing with other people, etc...)
acabobie Posted July 8, 2014 Author Posted July 8, 2014 Good point. There are two ways I can fix my definition to include involuntary body functions. choice is a conscious reaction to our environment. Now with this new definition that I will accept for now I will invent a hypothetical to put it to the test. Lets say that I put myself (or any other straight man does really) into an environment of gay bars. Here I meet gay folk who I talk to and make friends with. Now when I do something recreational, I am exposing myself to homosexuality more and more as I hang out with my new friends. Is it possible for a straight man to turn gay? How long would you speculate? I am putting myself(consciously) into a "gay" environment, so after Y amount of time would I start to become sexually attracted to males?
jpahmad Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Now with this new definition that I will accept for now I will invent a hypothetical to put it to the test. Lets say that I put myself (or any other straight man does really) into an environment of gay bars. Here I meet gay folk who I talk to and make friends with. Now when I do something recreational, I am exposing myself to homosexuality more and more as I hang out with my new friends. Is it possible for a straight man to turn gay? How long would you speculate? I am putting myself(consciously) into a "gay" environment, so after Y amount of time would I start to become sexually attracted to males? If you are straight then I don't see how you could magically become attracted to the same sex. At least, I've never heard of this happening. What does this have to do with choice? I'm a little confused
cynicist Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Sorry for not responding sooner, but I actually agree with you. I find that my beliefs come about the same way you described: I have certain values (truth being chief among them), experiences, thoughts, etc, and my beliefs are derived from them and are fluid in exactly the same way. As my thinking and experience are updated, so are my beliefs. Even when you might say something like, "He is choosing to believe in god rather than accepting the truth", what you actually mean is that he is avoiding certain knowledge and his belief in god is a consequence of that avoidance. I could be wrong but this is how I see it currently.
acabobie Posted July 8, 2014 Author Posted July 8, 2014 If you are straight then I don't see how you could magically become attracted to the same sex. At least, I've never heard of this happening. What does this have to do with choice? I'm a little confused I said nothing of magic. Magic doesn't exist, I was even a witch once and nothing astounding happened. Straight person gets repeated exposure to gay lifestyle (His new environment he puts himself in) and then after awhile of that life experience the person might become something other than just straight. Bisexual lets say. OR maybe the confusion arises because you do not believe that sexuality is something that is chosen?? Sorry for not responding sooner, but I actually agree with you. I find that my beliefs come about the same way you described: I have certain values (truth being chief among them), experiences, thoughts, etc, and my beliefs are derived from them and are fluid in exactly the same way. As my thinking and experience are updated, so are my beliefs. Even when you might say something like, "He is choosing to believe in god rather than accepting the truth", what you actually mean is that he is avoiding certain knowledge and his belief in god is a consequence of that avoidance. I could be wrong but this is how I see it currently. Finally someone understands where I am coming from with this! I have been talking with some family members about this and they all believe that it is a choice. In my mind if we could choose all of our beliefs at a whim and moments notice we could always be extremely happy. Maybe you don't like oatmeal right now.. But will it enough and then voila, there is nothing in the world that is better than the oatmeal that you are having right now. Same with school, work, chores, etc.. However I find that is not the case. Beliefs and preferences take time and experience to form and cannot be forced or willed upon yourself in a small amount of time.
jpahmad Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Straight person gets repeated exposure to gay lifestyle (His new environment he puts himself in) and then after awhile of that life experience the person might become something other than just straight. Bisexual lets say. OR maybe the confusion arises because you do not believe that sexuality is something that is chosen?? O.k., so a straight person is in a new environment (gay lifestyle) and as a result, chooses to have sex with another man. Sure, this is a perfectly good example of a choice.
acabobie Posted July 9, 2014 Author Posted July 9, 2014 O.k., so a straight person is in a new environment (gay lifestyle) and as a result, chooses to have sex with another man. Sure, this is a perfectly good example of a choice. I think there are misunderstandings between us and what we are saying in this particular hypothetical. I will try to clear things up once more and if that doesn't work we should move on to other things. Nothing was said about sex. Consider however that one of those gay friends gets drunk around you and in his stupor his inhibitions are down and he asks the straight man if he wants his dick sucked. If a straight man consents to a homosexual act does that mean automatically that he is at least then bisexual?
jpahmad Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Finally someone understands where I am coming from with this! I have been talking with some family members about this and they all believe that it is a choice. You're family members don't know what it means "to choose." If you define choice as a "reaction to your environment" then it is clear that when someone presents something nonsensical to you(god), you just ignore it because it is of no consequence. You have no reaction to it. Maybe I should change my definition to "our physical reactions to our environment?" Consider however that one of those gay friends gets drunk around you and in his stupor his inhibitions are down and he asks the straight man if he wants his dick sucked. If a straight man consents to a homosexual act does that mean automatically that he is at least then bisexual? Bisexual? I wouldn't think so. Maybe the straight guy just wanted to see what it felt like. Your scenario doesn't give us enough information. But, for the sake of the argument, let's say the "straight" guy really liked it. Well, then I think it would be fair to say that he is bi-sexual. But the label typically refers to a lifestyle, not just a solitary act based on a whim.
acabobie Posted July 9, 2014 Author Posted July 9, 2014 Maybe I should change my definition to "our physical reactions to our environment?" If the definition becomes one pertaining strictly to the physical then beliefs and preferences are not choice because beliefs and preferences do not exist in the physical world themselves, they are abstract. Intangible ideas arising from the process of neurological connections in our brains firing in certain patterns. Am I correct?
jpahmad Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 If the definition becomes one pertaining strictly to the physical then beliefs and preferences are not choice because beliefs and preferences do not exist in the physical world themselves, they are abstract. Intangible ideas arising from the process of neurological connections in our brains firing in certain patterns. Am I correct? Yes, I believe so. Therefore, choice only pertains to behavior. Looking at it this way, someone who says "you choose to not believe in god" is not making any sense.
acabobie Posted July 9, 2014 Author Posted July 9, 2014 Yes, I believe so. Therefore, choice only pertains to behavior. Looking at it this way, someone who says "you choose to not believe in god" is not making any sense. Yes this is the way I look at it. I can choose (behavior) to tell people my favorite color is blazing orange but that does not mean that my internal state or belief is what I say it is.
jpahmad Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Yes this is the way I look at it. I can choose (behavior) to tell people my favorite color is blazing orange but that does not mean that my internal state or belief is what I say it is. Yep. Picture a big circle that encompasses all our reactions to our environment, both external and internal. A "belief" would be a smaller circle within the big circle that consists of only our internal reactions, and a "choice" would be a different circle within that big circle, consisting of our external reactions. I think it's better to use "external" and "internal" rather than "physical" and "mental."
acabobie Posted July 9, 2014 Author Posted July 9, 2014 (-> Denotes influence) Premise: Environment -> Internal State -> External Action. Therefore external action is influenced by the environment one is in. Influenced is a key word as it does not guarantee 100% of a certain internal state or external action as people come from diverse environments (backgrounds, experiences, in which they have developed prior beliefs). We do not live in closed environment with no variation. There are many things and it is dynamic world.
tiepolo Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 I envy people who can choose what to believe. I'm stuck with believing what the available evidence (along with Occam's razor) seems to indicate is true. I would choose to like football, too, for similar reasons of better fitting into the crowd and having an easier life. One cannot chose things like that any more than ones existential beliefs, it seems.
jpahmad Posted July 11, 2014 Posted July 11, 2014 I envy people who can choose what to believe. I'm stuck with believing what the available evidence (along with Occam's razor) seems to indicate is true. I would choose to like football, too, for similar reasons of better fitting into the crowd and having an easier life. One cannot chose things like that any more than ones existential beliefs, it seems. We've come to the conclusion so far on this thread that choice must be an action; an outward or "external" action. For example, you don't choose to feel sad, but you can choose to go for a walk. We are theorizing that beliefs and feelings have nothing to do with choice, but something else
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