Boyscouts: yea or nay?

[Existing Alternatives]

I’ve never been a boyscout (different culture, different time), but I was always fascinated with them: campfires, surviving skills, pocket knives, and even uniforms (yes, I know, para-military). At the same time I am quite concerned about the whole “God and country” and yes, uniforms. Weighing these for my own kid, are the benefits worth it? What was your personal experience? Is there an alternative that teaches kids all the good stuff without brainwashing them?

[Avocadogreta]

Hi!

 

There are a lot of other options, I suppose it's all about where you live though. In WA state there's a group called the Mountaineers https://www.mountaineers.org/ - a friend of mine participated for years - I was always jealous of her skills when we'd camp together. There are other types of outdoor 'schools' like another local one called Wilderness Awareness http://wildernessawareness.org/ which we've considered sending our LO to for a day or more a week.

Surely, there is something like these in your area? 

[philschneider]

I would advise against the scouts.  There is enough god and country loyalty involved that I would steer clear.  Avocadogreta is right though.  There are many other groups out there that are similar that you could look into.  You can also just talk to other parents in your area to create your own group/club and take your children out camping and build wilderness skills.  Joining a pre made group is easier, but is unnecessary.

[J-William]

I’ve never been a boyscout (different culture, different time), but I was always fascinated with them: campfires, surviving skills, pocket knives, and even uniforms (yes, I know, para-military). At the same time I am quite concerned about the whole “God and country” and yes, uniforms. Weighing these for my own kid, are the benefits worth it? What was your personal experience? Is there an alternative that teaches kids all the good stuff without brainwashing them?

Here's a little secret about the boyscouts... It can be almost anything you want, depending on the troop you're in.

 

So for instance, most scout troops are tied to churches... depending on which part of the country many of them just use the church space and don't have much god in their troop. But some churches (like mormons) use the scouts as a branch of the church and as a point of recruitment.

 

So, saying that... the real rub is if you live somewhere that has good alternatives like the mountaineers then I'm sure you can find some very good boyscout troops that don't push god and country. On the other hand, if you don't live somewhere like that... then your luck will be worse.

 

When I was a boy I was a member of two different scout troops. The first was in a not terribly conservative city, and the troop was attached to a church with very nice facilities and there was very little god in our troop (plenty of country...)

 

Our family then moved to Texas. In Texas I tried out several troops that were attached to various churches. the mormons were a big mormon club that would be happy to welcome me to their club... and other troops were heavily pushing the religion angle as well. 

 

The troop I finally settled on did not push the religion angle, and the church they were tied to did not interfere. In fact we were stuck out in a rundown building out back of the church and I never once saw the church open while we were there. The big problem we had from not being tied strongly to a church was that our facilities were lousy, and our troop was very small because it didn't have the supply of church members.

 

So, if you've got a kid... I strongly endorse camping and outdoorsy stuff. Boyscouts can be a way to do that, but go in with eyes open and shop around for a good troop. Or join another organization that isn't so questionable in their beliefs and practices.

[tasmlab]

Para military Christian organization that pushes patriotism and obedience.  What could go wrong?

 

I agree with J-William.  My boyscout troop was basically a poker club for the dads.  We'd go camping and all the dads would load up on beer, smokes and play cards throughout the afternoon and evening.  Us boys would run around in the woods and play war.  No badges, instruction, etc.  Completely secular.  Our weekly meetings were a recital of some of the scouting oaths and then furious dodge ball for an hour.

 

Later, a new scoutleader came in and stopped the drinking/gambling etc., and insisted on the scouts learning scouting skills and getting badges.  Very few dads ever showed up again and most boys I knew quit soon after.

 

Anecdote!

[Existing Alternatives]

Thank you all, this is very instructive. I kind of suspected most of it, but was hoping for some shining light that would instantly outweigh all the nonesense. 

Perhaps, my other question is whether they do anything else, besides camping and reciting oaths. Is there actual instruction on how to survive in the woods? Outside the scouting is there a book or a guide I can use to teach all this stuff by myself that you may recommend?

There are a lot of other options, I suppose it's all about where you live though. In WA state there's a group called the Mountaineers https://www.mountaineers.org/ - a friend of mine participated for years - I was always jealous of her skills when we'd camp together. There are other types of outdoor 'schools' like another local one called Wilderness Awareness http://wildernessawareness.org/ which we've considered sending our LO to for a day or more a week.

Surely, there is something like these in your area? 

 

I live in Ontario, I just started the search and Scouts was the first place I looked. Mountaneering and Wilderness Awareness sound like something I'd be interested in. I found a school here in Toronto that sort of looks like Wilderness one - called Gradale Academy

I would advise against the scouts.  There is enough god and country loyalty involved that I would steer clear.  Avocadogreta is right though.  There are many other groups out there that are similar that you could look into.  You can also just talk to other parents in your area to create your own group/club and take your children out camping and build wilderness skills.  Joining a pre made group is easier, but is unnecessary.

 

The piece that I am missing as a parent, that I hope something like scouting would provide, is the skillset. I don't know much about life in the woods and such. And scouting sounds just like and easy, as you said - a pre-made group.

Here's a little secret about the boyscouts... It can be almost anything you want, depending on the troop you're in.

 

So for instance, most scout troops are tied to churches... depending on which part of the country many of them just use the church space and don't have much god in their troop. But some churches (like mormons) use the scouts as a branch of the church and as a point of recruitment.

 

So, saying that... the real rub is if you live somewhere that has good alternatives like the mountaineers then I'm sure you can find some very good boyscout troops that don't push god and country. On the other hand, if you don't live somewhere like that... then your luck will be worse.

 

When I was a boy I was a member of two different scout troops. The first was in a not terribly conservative city, and the troop was attached to a church with very nice facilities and there was very little god in our troop (plenty of country...)

 

Our family then moved to Texas. In Texas I tried out several troops that were attached to various churches. the mormons were a big mormon club that would be happy to welcome me to their club... and other troops were heavily pushing the religion angle as well. 

 

The troop I finally settled on did not push the religion angle, and the church they were tied to did not interfere. In fact we were stuck out in a rundown building out back of the church and I never once saw the church open while we were there. The big problem we had from not being tied strongly to a church was that our facilities were lousy, and our troop was very small because it didn't have the supply of church members.

 

So, if you've got a kid... I strongly endorse camping and outdoorsy stuff. Boyscouts can be a way to do that, but go in with eyes open and shop around for a good troop. Or join another organization that isn't so questionable in their beliefs and practices.

 

Most troops I see here are tied to churches, which clearly is a red flag. But now I see that they could simply be renting space from them. So, based on your experience, they don't seem to be that bad. And if I can either shop around or maybe even mold it into something more outdoorsy and less "god and country"

Para military Christian organization that pushes patriotism and obedience.  What could go wrong?

 

I agree with J-William.  My boyscout troop was basically a poker club for the dads.  We'd go camping and all the dads would load up on beer, smokes and play cards throughout the afternoon and evening.  Us boys would run around in the woods and play war.  No badges, instruction, etc.  Completely secular.  Our weekly meetings were a recital of some of the scouting oaths and then furious dodge ball for an hour.

 

Later, a new scoutleader came in and stopped the drinking/gambling etc., and insisted on the scouts learning scouting skills and getting badges.  Very few dads ever showed up again and most boys I knew quit soon after.

 

Anecdote!

 

So, once again, not a complete write-off? As long as I find the right troop, right?

Btw, how do they actually push obedience (patriotism part is clear to me)?

[QueechoFeecho]

I highly recommend it.  If you're the parent, you can talk about the 'god and country' stuff with your kid so they navigate the issue.  It could be good experience for them to travel safely deep in enemy territory! haha

[tasmlab]

On obedience, there's several pledges and codes of conduct.  They have the boys stand at attention, make a symbol with their hand, and recite pledges to the flag. There's uniforms.

 

The scout oath goes:

On my honor, I will do my best 
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; 
To help other people at all times; 
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

From their website (not my interpretation):

 

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

• Duty to God and country,
• Duty to other people, and
• Duty to self

So, duty to god and country and other people isn't too atheistic/anarchistic.

 

The pledge goes:

 

A Scout is:

• Trustworthy,
• Loyal,
• Helpful,
• Friendly,
• Courteous,
• Kind,
• Obedient,
• Cheerful,
• Thrifty,
• Brave,
• Clean,
• and Reverent.

 

These aren't so bad, only obedient and reverent are a little dicey. 

 

There's also a ranking system (like in the military), but it's more about achievement than plain hierarchy. 

 

You should easily be able to counter educate your boy.  I wouldn't call this stuff a deal-breaker.  My family might look into scouting as a social thing for our homeschooled kids.

[AustinJames]

I would tell the child the truth about the scouts (to an age-appropriate degree) and allow them to make their own decision about joining such an organization. 

 

I would NOT encourage my child to join any scouting organization, but rather try to provide them with whatever outdoors experience they desired without the aid of the BSA.  There is also the history of sexual abuse within the BSA to be considered.  I would require the constant watchful eyes of someone I trust dearly in order to let my child participate in lengthy camps, or even 'over-nighters' with other boys and men whose histories and abilities I have no way of knowing.

 

In Boy Scouts, he will be expected to memorize and recite the pledge, sing propaganda songs, and generally glorify war and the state.  If there is an organization that he can join that would take him hiking and teach him fun skills, without the massive mind-fuck of propaganda, that would be preferable-- and the family is a great organization for that.

 

I would discourage children from joining an organization like the Boy Scouts of America, and tell them exactly my reservations.  If my child wanted desperately to join the BSA, I would be very curious as to why they wanted to join, and try to meet their needs in a way we could both agree on.  Does he want to camp?  We can go camping.  Does he want to make friends?  We'll come up with a strategy for making friends with similar interests.  Does he want to learn skills to feel accomplished?  We can do a project together or attend a class.  If he is absolutely adamant that he wants to join the scouts, and presents compelling reasons, I don't know that I would blatantly deny him.  That is, I still may not allow it, but I would at least go to a few meetings, probe for creepiness; talk about what to expect, and what my stipulations may be in order to ensure his safety. I would prepare my child with many explanations of what to expect, how to make friends and, of course, how to identify predators; both the human and non-human kind.

 

I am an Eagle Scout (highest rank in the BSA), but my feelings for scouting are not strong.  It was a way to do some fun things, but if I had that time and those resources to myself, I would have found a way to make use of them in another (probably more constructive) way.

[Omegahero09]

On obedience, there's several pledges and codes of conduct.  They have the boys stand at attention, make a symbol with their hand, and recite pledges to the flag. There's uniforms.

 

The scout oath goes:

On my honor, I will do my best 

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; 

To help other people at all times; 

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

From their website (not my interpretation):

 

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

• Duty to God and country,
• Duty to other people, and
• Duty to self

So, duty to god and country and other people isn't too atheistic/anarchistic.

 

The pledge goes:

 

A Scout is:

• Trustworthy,
• Loyal,
• Helpful,
• Friendly,
• Courteous,
• Kind,
• Obedient,
• Cheerful,
• Thrifty,
• Brave,
• Clean,
• and Reverent.

 

These aren't so bad, only obedient and reverent are a little dicey. 

 

There's also a ranking system (like in the military), but it's more about achievement than plain hierarchy. 

 

You should easily be able to counter educate your boy.  I wouldn't call this stuff a deal-breaker.  My family might look into scouting as a social thing for our homeschooled kids.

As an Eagle Scout, and someone who has spent a long time in the scouts and their programs in the South West, I can tell you that it's not as bad as it sounds.

 

The camps and programs I have been a part of have always been very respectful of atheists. In fact- most of my troop were atheists, and Jews. So you never really know. They leave a lot to the different troops to have final say on what is really taken home about religion (it actually comes down the parents). If the camp or program is going to be really laced with highly patriotic or highly religious dogma- you will know ahead of time.

 

It comes down to the troop as J-William says.

[LanceD]

We tried it for a while and decided to stop it.

 

Way too much religion

 

Way too much extreme nationalism/collectivism

 

Not enough of the fun outdoor stuff and survival skills.

 

A good alternative is to get the Dangerous Book For Boys and learn the stuff together.

[QueechoFeecho]

That was the Scout Law, not the pledge.  Just an annoying little nitpick.  Sorry could have resisted, but didn't.

 

-----edited to add-----

 

I think the amount of religion and nationalism varies a lot from troop to troop.  The one I was in wasn't too heavy on the religion side at all.  There was almost no pressure to pursue the religious awards.

[J-William]

 There was almost no pressure to pursue the religious awards.

They have religious awards?

 

Wow... I was a scout for years and I didn't even know that (I may have seen it in their book and merely forgot about it...)

[QueechoFeecho]

I might not be accurate to call them "awards", but they have these pins you can earn by completing a bunch of tasks related to learning a religion.  I earned one as a youth.  It was mostly about reading parts of the bible or other books and then answering questions in this workbook.  It was sort of like you probably experienced in reading class from third to seventh grade.

[Existing Alternatives]

Thank you all for these insights. Based on what I am hearing I will hold off getting him to join in just yet. At this stage it is simply me looking for ways to get my little one engaged in outdoorsy, survival-type of activities. I guess, we'll keep looking.

 

@QueechoFeecho, I almost feel that the energy spent trying to talk him through the "god and country stuff" could be much better applied towards me learning and teaching him all the good things that scouts may have. As far as navigating the enemy territory - perhaps, too young...

 

@tasmlab, this is exactly what I was afraid of. I want him to grow up being able to respect his own word. If you give an oath, you might as well mean it. If he pays lip service to half of the obligation, why would he take the rest seriously. At the same time, ranking, if I am not mistaken, is more merit-based, which is something I am ok with.

 

@AustinJames, I did not even want to get into the whole sexual abuse stuff. How prevalent do you think it is?

I particularly like your point on family being the best organisation to go camping and learning skills. We actually do have a fairly large extended family and we do get to camp maybe once a year. It has nothing to do with skills, but the foundation is already there. He is by no means adamant to join scouts, if anything he is somewhat ignorant of the organisation itself. I am afraid that I myself push him towards it too much.

 

@omegahero09, I am not looking for respect of atheists. It sounds more like "special accommodation." My biggest concern is indoctrination. If anything, I would consider it even worse, if the scoutmaster (or whatever they are called) would have to do things differently "because little Johnny is special." That won't score him any friends.

 

@LanceD, did you try just one troop, or any kind of comparison shopping? Or do you find the entire approach faulty? Thank you for recommending the book. I looked it up, sounds like a step in the right direction. Btw, here is what it says in the Amazon's description of the Canadian edition... "It includes stories of famous battles, such as the Battle of Vimy Ridge, and features legendary Canadians such as Francis Pegahmagabow, the heroic Ojibway sniper who fought bravely in World War I." I hope that's not all that's in there  

[Jeffrey Slater]

Hi,

 

Hopefully I can give some insight into this, as I myself am an Eagle scout (highest rank in scouts).  I would personally try to dissuade your kids from joining the scouts.  There were some positive experiences, but on the whole they were outweighed by the massive amount of propaganda and patriotism that were injected into everything we did.  It is a very militaristic structure, where you advance through ranks by demonstrating your abilities to recite the various mantras and creeds of the scouts (as well as various wilderness related survival skills like knots and first aid).  If my father had not been insistent upon my participation in this organization I would have stopped well short of reaching Eagle rank.  Loyalty and patriotism are BIG themes in the scouts, and a lot of the members of my troop who stuck it out with me ended up in various branches of the military.  In fact, one of the requirements to becoming an eagle scout is to earn various 'citizenship' merit badges, that basically ask you to tout the merits of democracy and paying taxes:

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/advancementandawards/eagle.aspx

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-CITC.aspx

 

 

As for the structure itself, each group of scouts is called a Troop, and is assigned a number.  These troops are usually sponsored by some organization- mine was sponsored by the church I went to as a kid.  Within the troops, each generation of boys is divided into 'patrols', who more or less advance through the ranks together.  I don't know how it is for other troops, but most of the boys in my troop were products of the public schools, and a southern christian upbringing, so there was a lot of angst.  Bullying / hazing was pretty common.  The added segregation of the patrols only exacerbated that aspect.  

 

We would start each meeting by lining up in our patrols.  Our scoutmasters and elected leaders from among the boys would then lead us in the pledge of allegiance, followed by the scout oath and the scout law.  All the while we would be saluting the American flag with the scout salute (same as the scout hand sign, only held to your brow).  Our troop chaplain would then lead us in a prayer.  After this, we would discuss upcoming events, campouts, etc, and would then move on to various activities such as working on merit badges, checking out our camping equipment, and practicing our knots and first aid skills.  After the hour for the meeting was up, we would gather back together, line up in our patrols, and recite the scout oath and law again.

 

I am not sure how common my experience was.  In the US south, it is probably pretty common, especially among troops sponsored by churches.  I have heard that there are troops out there that are more relaxed about the religious aspects, but I doubt there are any that downplay the patriotism stuff.  Even still I would bet these sorts of troops are the exception, and not the rule.  

 

I would say, if you really want to get your kids outdoors and camping, then just do it.  You don't need an organization for that.  There are lots of places with various types of camping, from cabins all the way down to empty plots for pitching tents.  There might even be camping meetups in your area that already do this sort of thing.  If you are new to it, you might grab a copy of the Boy Scout handbook.  If you ignore the first few chapters about all of the scouting rituals, the book is actually a pretty comprehensive guide to camping, with lots of illustrations to show you how to tie the knots and lashings, how to do first aid, how to recognize dangerous plants / animals that are common in America, and what kinds of equipment you will need.

 

I know this has been quite a long wall of text, but to sum it up, you would be better off dissuading your kids from joining the scouts, as it is very authoritarian, and the camping aspects are secondary to their teaching loyalty to god and country.

[Existing Alternatives]

 

Thank you for the information. And no, I don’t mind the wall of text, when it concerns my son’s well-being. There is definitely something evil about book-ending each “knots, firs-aid, camp prep” meeting with reciting pledges, oaths, and prayers. I could be wrong, but I assume that many kids pay a lip-service to most of that nonsense, which could be even worse, as most of that being unprocessed would go straight into a child’s subconscious. 

 

===========================================

 

Thank you all again for the information! As a follow-up, I am now fully in the “no-scout” camp. It seems like it would be so much more beneficial for all of us to learn and apply these skills together as a family.

[QueechoFeecho]

Despite almost entirely despising the rituals of the scouts, I loved my experience in it.  My experience largely matched what was described in Jeffrey Slater's "wall of text" above, but we were somewhat less ardent about the rituals.  We didn't recite everything at both the beginning and ending of the meetings.  We did one aspect at the beginning and the others at the end, or some such division of them between beginning and end. 

 

The aspect of being a troop and then further subdivided into patrols within the troops held.  That was the common structure throughout my area, which was more in the northeastern part of the country. 

 

There were some aspects of gang affiliation duplicated therein.  I.e. you got to be a part of a team/group/troop/patrol, and you'd compete against the other troops and their patrols.  We had twice-yearly camporees, one in spring and another in fall, where all the troops in the district (or was it council?  I don't remember it perfectly at this point, but it was roughly a geographic area) would congregate on a site, be it an official scout camp or a state park, and you'd spend the weekend there.  You'd build camp when you arrive Friday night, then Saturday morning and afternoon were spent in competitions that were centered around camping skills, first aid, nature aspects, some physical aspects, etc.  For example one was a tree identification course.  15 trees would be marked with ribbons tacked to them, and the patrol had to run through the course, write down what kind of tree each one was, and then get back to the adult leader running the competition.  The most correct would win, with ties being broken based on the time to complete.  I loved the competitions.  I lived for those.  I would never want to relive my life without them.  It was a pride thing.  There were rivalries involved, which I'll admit are superficial and stupid, but being the best at something was great for one's self-confidence, especially when you or your patrol got recognized in front of the other 20 troops, which could be 40-60 patrols, and named as the winner, the second place, or third place amongst them. 

 

Sometimes my cleverness got the best of me and my patrol would get eliminated from a particular competition because we completed it in a way that was "not in the spirit" of that particular competition.  That part annoyed the hell out of me, as I thought it perfectly rational to do precisely what I did in getting disqualified. 

 

For example, at one spring camporee, there was a competition that was supposed to exemplify fire-building skills.  The troops' leaders that were running it set it up as follows:  There were two posts in the ground, rising about 18 or 24 inches above the level of the ground.  They would tie a string between them, and the patrol members were supposed to construct a fire that would burn high enough to burn the string.  The patrol was timed from the second the adult said "go" and stopped when the string broke.  The winner was the patrol that had burnt the string apart in the least time.  I saw other patrols doing it by stacking sticks, tinder, kindling, etc, using their fire-building skills as contained in the Boy Scout Handbook.  The times seemed tough to beat.  5 minutes. 4.5 minutes.  One patrol came in at something like 3 minutes 38 seconds.  I knew my patrol wasn't particularly skilled at fire-building as it was taught in the Handbook.  So I looked around to see how we could gain an edge. 

 

The camporee was being held at an official scout campground in its parade field, which was a large flat area spanning several acres.  The entire area was skirted by trees on three sides, a slope that reached a river on the fourth side, while the parade field itself was largely grass of varying heights and in varying stages of life.  I took one other patrol member aside that I knew was the best at using flint and steel and sent the others off running to scoop up as much tall, dead grass as they could wrap up in their arms.  Then I and the flint-and-steel guy walked up to the adult running the competition, and I announced, "Troop NNN, Rat Patrol, ready to enter the fire-building competition."  The adult leader nodded and asked if it was just the two of us.  I told him the rest of the patrol would be along shortly and we didn't need to wait more than a few seconds.  He tied the string between the posts.  Then he got in his chair, several feet away from the posts, leaving room for a patrol of 4 to 8 boys to gather around it and work together.  My flint-and-steel guy held the objects in his hand, and I formed my hands in a cuplike shape, ready to put them in place to block any anti-fire-friendly wind.  The rest of the patrol started running up, clutching arm and chests full of foot-long dead dry grass.  The adult reset the stopwatch to zero, looked me, and asked if I was ready for us to start.  I nodded affirmatively.  He said "go" and pushed the button. 

 

I direct four other boys of my patrol to cluster all their dried grass in the center of the space between the two posts, with a small alcove spread apart on one side of the cluster.  I cupped my hands blocking most of the alcove, and the flint and steel guy put those items in the alcove and began striking and striking.  In a few seconds a spark caught a single blade of grass, which burned instantly and caught a few others afire.  It spread from there, both upwards and outwards.  I directed the two last members of my patrol grasp vertical bundles of grasps and place them on the top of the existing, now burning, bundle of grass, and lean them against the string.  The flames grew quickly and ran up these recent additions to the pile of grass.  The flames reached the top and started browning, then blackening, and finally breaking the string.  The adult called "complete" and pushed the stop button then called out our time.  43 seconds.  We were nearly three minutes faster than every other patrol that had attempted it and would attempt it throughout the day. 

 

However a few hours later some of the adult leaders of the troop running that competition walked over to our troops' leaders and talked with them.  I found out later that that was them declaring the Rat Patrol disqualified because our fire-building technique wasn't one that was typically taught and wouldn't yield a fire that could be used to boil water or cook food or most any other task. 

 

When I found out, I approached the leaders of the troop running that competition and told them that if they wanted patrols to build a fire that can boil water, then the competition should be to boil water.  Don't ask us to burn string and then disqualify us when we do.

 

I had several similar disqualifications over the years.  In one, which was stated as a lashing competition, the patrol was supposed to take three longish logs, lash them in the shape of an A-frame, has one patrol member stand inside, and have the other tie ropes to the A-frame and "walk" it from a starting line across a finishing line.  They didn't say it had to touch the ground the whole time, so as soon as I we have the A-frame lashed, I told the lightest smallest kid in our group to grap the A-frame and hang on, then told the other to take the ropes, loop them around the three corners of the A-frame, and life it and simply carry it from line to line.  We got disqualified for that one as well, despite our time being faster than all other patrols. 

 

Other times we'd get disqualified because for a certain competition, say for example, blindfolded knot-tying, I'd walk up to the event, say I'm the Rat Patrol, and join, because I was the best knot-tying kid in our group.  I'd tie the 8 knots, be amongst the fastest if not the fastest, and then get disqualified, because the dimwitted adults running it said we didn't have each and every member of the patrol participating (they wanted all patrol members to go through the eight knots and then take the average).  I thought that was foolish, because in any real world situation where you need knots tied, you don't have all the people tie it and use the average quality knot.  You have the people skilled at the task complete it.  Same for first aid, or swimming to save a life.  You don't send everybody.  You specialize. We had one guy that was amazing at tree identification.  For that competition at least we didn't get disqualified, because we'd line up at the first tree, hear the word "go", and he'd start running.  The rest of the patrol would each have a notebook, and everyone else's job was just to write down the names of the trees as the skilled tree identifier called them out.  Everyone participated, so we didn't get DQ'd, and as long as that guy was in our troops, we won first place in tree identification. 

 

In general I enjoyed the heck out of it, because I got to do things I wouldn't have been able to do if relying solely on my parents (whitewater rafting, backpacking in the winter, all these competitions, etc).  I just learned to tolerate and work around the irrational parts, like the ceremonies, the pledges, the adult leaders that weren't so bright, etc.

Wow that was a long post.