"You Can't Fix Stupid" - the 2nd call brought me some revelations and questions

[Quadrewple]

I got very emotional during the second call, as soon as the second caller did (who was talking about moral responsibility and how he tormented his sister).  I started to feel defensive and angry when Stef attempted to uncover the caller's reason for tormenting his sister in the moment.  One thought that came into my head was "That's not important, just blame the parents" - a particularly disturbing thought because I realize that that is likely exactly how his parents likely justified their abuse of him (though they are obviously far more culpable for torturing him as adults), and is one of the first excuses my dad made for his sadistic behavior towards me as a child (he was quick to deflect his abuse towards me with how his parents treated him).  Also, a feeling of horror came over me as Stef empathized with his sister - it brought to mind all the images I have in my mind of me making my sister cry and yell, and all the times I mocked her and filled her so full of rage, she couldn't bear it and ran into her room, locked the door, and made gutteral sounds as a desperate attempt to get me to leave her alone - memories which I've tried in vain to disassociate from myself.  I started crying when listening to the podcast and felt immense sadness and anger.

 

I haven't even finished listening to the call, but I think for me the reason for seeking out and starting conflicts with her where I could cause her pain was obviously that I enjoyed causing suffering in others and was becoming a full-on sadist.  As I'm typing this I'm getting even more angry at my parents and I want to yell at the top of my lungs "YOU TURNED ME INTO A SADISTIC MONSTER!"  It is starting to make sense to me why I was so depressed from 11th grade onward - I no longer had anyone to unload my rage onto - I no longer had a helpless little sister and my brother became bigger than me (he is 2 years younger and she is 5 years younger) - I was one of the smallest kids at school.  So I had a brain wired for sadism in an environment which I had no power in - which explains why I became so withdrawn and anti-social and fearful of strangers.  My brain was telling me that the world was a win-lose environment, I was now in the lose category - the victim category, and so my actions reflected that of a victim.

 

It seems (based on Stef's actions during the call, and during the call with the guy who put other kids in the hospital) that in order to heal from having inflicted harm on others, you must give yourself responsibility for the damage you've caused others, no matter how old you were, and no matter what was modeled for you which led to that behavior being seen as an feasible option.  This is hard for me to accept emotionally, though obviously that has no bearing on the validity of that idea.

 

I suspect that my father and mother are both full-blown sadists, though neither of them were ever diagnosed (though my mom has been taking medication for schizophrenia for a long time).  I suspect that if I had been big and strong (I'm fully grown now and 5'8, 125lbs), I would have been a vicious and dangerous bully physically, like the second caller in "Shame-Based DNA Death," so it's hard for me to really look at myself as any different from him as I chose the means of sadism which I could get away with (verbal abuse, not just towards my sister, but towards a couple of easy targets at school) just as he chose the means of sadism which he could get away with. 

 

There have been plenty of times since I found out about this show (which was about 6 years ago) when I almost wished that I didn't have a conscience because it has been so unbelievably painful to uncover and explore the truth about my history and there have been so many times along the way when I've been unable or unwilling to face the truth about the things I've done and the things which have been done to me - thoughts came up of "How could this be true?  How could my parents have been so evil?  How could it have really been that bad?  How could I have done that?"  Even though I've done a lot of self-work through journaling and therapy so far, It seems like every time I explore an incident from my past, 10 more come to the surface and I push them away to a later date (I know this is not technically true, but I do feel overwhelmed by how much bullshit I have to slog through just to achieve a reasonable level of happiness, or at least not fearing punishment from others on a daily basis).  I know that I've done a lot of work so far and made a lot of progress from when I started therapy, but I can't rid myself of the thought that I need to work even harder and give myself less leeway to spend time on other things.  It's the same thing in therapy - every session I feel that I have to push important things to the side for the sake of time for the things which I perceive to be even more important (which has its benefits but obviously drawbacks as well).

 

I only have a couple of memories of my dad playing with me when I was a child, the other memories consist of him ignoring me, mocking me, and denying me the attention I needed from him and hitting me with on the bare-ass with wooden spoons, metal spatchulas, and a plastic pasta-stirring spoon with spikes.  My mom hit me with the same items, frequently sicked my dad on me because he could hit harder, and though she was not neglectful in the sense that she spent a lot of time with me in early childhood (stay-at-home mom who homeschooled me), I can see very clearly now that she was trying to turn me into her subservient little pet and only gave me affection for doing what she wanted me to do and the threat of punishment was ALWAYS there if I openly expressed disagreement or argued with her, whether that punishment was physical (hitting, washing my mouth out with soap, making me eat too much hot sauce) or withdrawal of affection.  She was unable to cope with reality by the time I was 9, and she now lives in a group home across the country, heavily medicated past the point of having humanity - she may as well be dead in my opinion.  My parents heavily indoctrinated me with fundamentalist Christianity and punished me very frequently for supposed immorality, so according to the argument Stef made in this podcast as I interpreted it, they hold a very high degree of moral responsibility for what they did to me and how it affected me (please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood or misinterpreted Stef).

 

Hopefully it is clear to anyone reading this why it is so emotionally hard for me to take responsibility for the way I treated my sister for YEARS, I'm talking 6 or 7 years of making her life hell, even though I logically accept it to a certain extent (I think my parents are even more to blame than I am).  I felt angry when Stef said he couldn't understand why other children in abusive environments don't stick up for each other.  The first thought that came to mind was, "Because you (meaning me) didn't side with your sister over your abusers, you are/were evil or at least morally inferior to Stef - who faced lots of abuse and neglect and was a good enough person to not hurt others when he knew how much he hated being hurt."  On the other hand, I also have the thought that "If I was morally inferior, it was the fault of my parents, and my childhood must have been worse and/or at least I must have had some genetic predisposition towards sadism which Stef did not have."  I later had the thought that "Comparing how good of a person you are to how good of a person Stef is is not productive or useful - how you deal with your wrongdoings moving forward is the only thing that matters."  I'm a bit lost on how to reconcile these thoughts into some kind of emotional clarity, and I also suspect the caller may have been dealing with the same types of thoughts.  Though, now that I've kept listening to the podcast, I can see that the alternative to me taking my anger out on my sister was probably worse - likely killing my parents or going on a shooting spree (something I've had a fantasy about doing several times in my life), or killing myself.  That gives me some comfort, but it doesn't change the fact that I did those things and have to live with those memories which is still horrible.

 

I apologize for the wayward nature of this post, but I fear that if I don't write this now, it will be a LONG time before these thoughts return to my mind and desperately want some discussion with rational and empathetic people about what I've written here.

[RachelAnn]

That was powerful, thanks for sharing. I am so sorry about the disgusting abuse from your parents. I don't really have much to say other than I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. My brother 4 years older than me used to physically attack me all the time. I have memories of him beating my face against the floor by my hair. He was a very smart, energetic kid who challenged my parents often and would get spanked for it. He then took all his frustration and aggression out on me. After he became an avid FDR listener a few years back he has apologized profusely to me. It is sickening how parents can turn their children on each other by their careless acts. Now my brother is my greatest influence and supporter. I don't blame him for the damage he has done, I place the blame on my parents for not nurturing who he was as a child and turning him against me, his innocent little sister who always looked up to him. Have you talked to your sister about this?

[MMX2010]

I later had the thought that "Comparing how good of a person you are to how good of a person Stef is is not productive or useful - how you deal with your wrongdoings moving forward is the only thing that matters." 

 

First of all, I'm very sorry for what you had to go through. 

 

Secondly, I'm glad you've chosen to open up to everyone here about this, rather than trying to figure it out alone. 

 

In one of the Gold-level podcasts, a caller suddenly realizes that there's a difference between: (1) accepting moral responsibility for your mistakes, and (2) attacking yourself with punishment / verbal abuse while accepting moral responsibility for your mistakes.  So you don't need to get mad at / verbally abusive towards yourself while realizing that your abuse of your sister was wrong, caused her much pain, and robbed yourself (for now) of a close relationship with her. 

 

If you've read RTR, I think you have the ability to properly express your regret and heartache to your sister.  Whether you should do this is up to you. 

[Jot]

Great post...I felt the same way and I was initially triggered by the podcast some weeks ago where he talks to someone who bullied children (Shame-based-DNA death). It resonated with me because I also have a sister whom I used to tease when we were younger, the extent to which I did was not so extreme as the caller's but I would go after her and videotape while she was watching TV and she always got upset and started to scream badly. Some day I hope I'll have the guts to apologize to her ;( 

That was powerful, thanks for sharing. I am so sorry about the disgusting abuse from your parents. I don't really have much to say other than I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. My brother 4 years older than me used to physically attack me all the time. I have memories of him beating my face against the floor by my hair. He was a very smart, energetic kid who challenged my parents often and would get spanked for it. He then took all his frustration and aggression out on me. After he became an avid FDR listener a few years back he has apologized profusely to me. It is sickening how parents can turn their children on each other by their careless acts. Now my brother is my greatest influence and supporter. I don't blame him for the damage he has done, I place the blame on my parents for not nurturing who he was as a child and turning him against me, his innocent little sister who always looked up to him. Have you talked to your sister about this?

At what age did he come out to you?

Did you live together at the time?

What was your reaction?

What was your and his relationship with your parents at the moment he did come out?

 

I hope I am not being annoying...I am in a similar situation as your brother and the thought of opening-up frightens me.

[Quadrewple]

That was powerful, thanks for sharing. I am so sorry about the disgusting abuse from your parents. I don't really have much to say other than I know what it's like to be on the receiving end. My brother 4 years older than me used to physically attack me all the time. I have memories of him beating my face against the floor by my hair. He was a very smart, energetic kid who challenged my parents often and would get spanked for it. He then took all his frustration and aggression out on me. After he became an avid FDR listener a few years back he has apologized profusely to me. It is sickening how parents can turn their children on each other by their careless acts. Now my brother is my greatest influence and supporter. I don't blame him for the damage he has done, I place the blame on my parents for not nurturing who he was as a child and turning him against me, his innocent little sister who always looked up to him. Have you talked to your sister about this?

 

Yeah, she moved to a different city with a friend's family which was obviously the best thing for her.  I talk to her every once in a while, but it is very painful for me to see her for many reasons - I still feel saddened at times when I see how well she is doing compared to me at that age because it reminds me of how shitty my childhood was and I am reminded of all the stuff I put her through.  This is all still outweighed the care I feel for her and her amazing personality.  I apologized to her a little while after finding FDR, and we both enjoy the times we do talk so I feel lucky that the relationship was never damaged beyond repair.  I'm glad to hear the bond was never damaged beyond repair between you and brother as well!

[seanp3]

Your post really helped me Quadrewple . Like you i was a product of my culture regarding my behaviour towards those around me . I try to behave differently today which can be painful , but ultimately liberating . Keep hearing this with regard to self examination . The pain i feel when realisation strikes has proved to me to be the death knell of that particular behaviour ,  which is at least some good news for those around me . I've had ten years of this process now and for the sake of sanity i view it as if i were pulling a splinter .

 

My brother and three sisters are not in my life due more to my conversion to empirical reasoning than any incidence of sadistic behaviour on my part ; yet regularly i recall situations which have me squirming with shame . For a while i viewed their absence  as punishment , now i see it as their exercising property rights .

 

Hey , i blame my parents and rightly so . I also blame my grandparents and on and on .

 

A curiously comforting thought is that although i had a horrendous childhood followed by 20 years of drug and alcohol abuse , i do feel that the tide of pain is gradually receding . I can guarantee that as far as my wife and child are concerned , that shit really does stop here .

 

I'm kinda fucked but at least i've stopped infecting others .

 

Small victories baby ! 

[RachelAnn]

Great post...I felt the same way and I was initially triggered by the podcast some weeks ago where he talks to someone who bullied children (Shame-based-DNA death). It resonated with me because I also have a sister whom I used to tease when we were younger, the extent to which I did was not so extreme as the caller's but I would go after her and videotape while she was watching TV and she always got upset and started to scream badly. Some day I hope I'll have the guts to apologize to her ;( 

At what age did he come out to you?

Did you live together at the time?

What was your reaction?

What was your and his relationship with your parents at the moment he did come out?

 

I hope I am not being annoying...I am in a similar situation as your brother and the thought of opening-up frightens me.

 

You are not being annoying, I am happy to share. I'm guessing by "come out" you mean being violent. He started to hit me when I was 5 and he was 9.  We did live together with our parents at the time. My reaction was different than most would expect. I would hold my ground and go along with it at first because I wanted to impress him by being tough. It usually led to me crying out for my mother, who would stop him. He might have gotten a time - out or punished, but it didn't stop him because he was being spanked on the side for other non-compliance issues and had pent up aggression. My father was always working and was only called to discipline when it was really bad. It happened probably about a few times a month. I remember him banging my head against the ground by my hair, and sometimes he would just wrestle with me and was little too rough. My brother found FDR and confronted my parents about the violence and also apologized to me. We had already fixed our relationship and were close when he apologized though. All you can do is just be really honest with your sister if you want a relationship with her. If you are nervous about it, sometimes writing a letter is best. Best wishes!

Yeah, she moved to a different city with a friend's family which was obviously the best thing for her.  I talk to her every once in a while, but it is very painful for me to see her for many reasons - I still feel saddened at times when I see how well she is doing compared to me at that age because it reminds me of how shitty my childhood was and I am reminded of all the stuff I put her through.  This is all still outweighed the care I feel for her and her amazing personality.  I apologized to her a little while after finding FDR, and we both enjoy the times we do talk so I feel lucky that the relationship was never damaged beyond repair.  I'm glad to hear the bond was never damaged beyond repair between you and brother as well!

That's good that she is doing well. It sounds like you would like a better relationship with her still. Don't be afraid to open up to her and also ask her about her life. If my brother decided to never get to know me better I would have never been introduced to the wonderful world of philosophy. A great relationship between siblings is a beautiful thing. We are able to share and process our childhoods together. So I would say push for that. I hope that helps.

[Jot]

 

 

You are not being annoying, I am happy to share. I'm guessing by "come out" you mean being violent. He started to hit me when I was 5 and he was 9.  We did live together with our parents at the time. My reaction was different than most would expect. I would hold my ground and go along with it at first because I wanted to impress him by being tough. It usually led to me crying out for my mother, who would stop him. He might have gotten a time - out or punished, but it didn't stop him because he was being spanked on the side for other non-compliance issues and had pent up aggression. My father was always working and was only called to discipline when it was really bad. It happened probably about a few times a month. I remember him banging my head against the ground by my hair, and sometimes he would just wrestle with me and was little too rough. My brother found FDR and confronted my parents about the violence and also apologized to me. We had already fixed our relationship and were close when he apologized though.

 

All you can do is just be really honest with your sister if you want a relationship with her. If you are nervous about it, sometimes writing a letter is best. Best wishes!

 

Thank you for taking the time...I don't feel prepared at all plus there's a bigger impediment we're both 18 and we are still living with our parents and I will certainly be financially dependent on them the next few years and if I were to apologize to my sister that would mean that I would also have to confront my parents which is expected to cause nothing but damage.