How to reply to 51%>49%?

[abcqwerty123]

Sorry for possibly confusing topic title. Every once in awhile I decide to debate my sister. I feel that over the past year or so, I have been getting pretty good at debating and usually when I debate people, they end up in a flaming tantrum by the end, just repeating their contradictions until they storm out of the room. Well, my sister is different.

 

My sisters argument is that she agrees with whatever the world is because at least 51% of the people agree with how it is and that no matter what, the majority should always have the say. I ask, what if 51% of the people believe that women should be enslaved or killed off, would you agree then? Her answer is yes because it is beneficial for the majority of people. I obviously completely disagree with her and believe in the value of each individual, but I don't know how to properly debate someone who basically agrees with slavery. Is there even a correct way to debate her or is all hope lost until she wakes up and realizes the value of individuals?

 

P.S. Sorry, I have been posting a few topics of the last week or so. I have random discussions/questions and this forum is where I receive the best information/advice, so when something comes into my mind, I enjoy getting responses from all of you because it allows me to improve my way of thinking.

[st434u]

All hope is lost with her, as with other people who act like that. You're just wasting your time and pretending like you're accomplishing something. I know because I used to do the same thing.

 

Ironically, once I stopped trying to argue with statists 1-on-1, a few of them started to come around and become interested in my views.

 

The only reason to debate a statist is for the benefit of third parties, i.e. spectators to the debate.

 

I would suggest considering Stef's "against me" approach. Don't just talk in the abstract with your sister, ask her if she's willing to support you being murdered to appease the mob.

[thelizardking52]

Well, I'd say check out the show Stefan did " why democaracies always fail" , that may help you  in an argument as she seems to be saying democracy has moral superiority over all decisions. Which I'd say is rather stupid. If you saw the show already you'll know what I mean.  I also have a couple of thoughts here on this. 

 

One, 51% to 49% having moral authority is like saying my 2% difference can mean night or day difference in decision making…. but not when there isn't a night to day difference of opinion amongs those polled, so that is an inconsistency one shouldn't overlook.

 

two, democracy is just mob rule.

 

three, what if 51% were going to vote to steal from the 49%…as is often the case in a real democracy.  

 

four, with such a slim margin there is easy chance that fraud determines the outcome as less fraud is needed to overcome the difference in the vote, outrightly stripping the result of an honest outcome or it being from those that voted.  

 

I hope something here helps but if your sister believes slavery and murder is ok with the consent difference of 2% then it's a good chance you are wasting your time and energy. Give it a try but don't compromise yourself and your efforts debating with someone who won't listen to reason and displays no respect for ethics in doing so.  Save them for people whose minds are open to change in the name of morality. 

[Brentb]

The simple answer is that truth isn't decided by opinion.

 

If 49% of people believe that people can hover in mid-air today, then people cannot hover today. 

if 51% of people believe that people can hover in mid-air tomorrow, then people will still not be able to hover despite the majority opinion.

 

If 80% of people believe that government theft can have positive results and boost the economy and take care of everyone, it doesn't mean that it has any bearing on reality.

 

I agree with st434u also. You're probably wasting your time.

[abcqwerty123]

Yah, I figured. I only do these debate/discussions when I am eating or have some extra time to kill, but like I said, from what she says, she believes that it doesn't matter what the decision of the majority is, as long as the majority decides on something, then it is the moral thing to do because it benefits the majority of the people. Oh well, sucks know that you have 1 sociopath sister, 1 ignorant sister, and 1 angry/depressed/ignorant dad. Where do all you cool people live. I need to move because southern California sucks. =P

[MrCapitalism]

TruthLogicFreedom, I'm really sorry to hear that you had to have this realization about your sister.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

American is an oligarchy, not a democracy:

 

 

“The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence,” the study found.

 

The study also found: “When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose.”

 

Looks like the world isn't the way it is according to your sister.

[hannahbanana]

You keep saying your sister agrees with the majority values because that is beneficial to the majority. But I wouldn't say that that's always true. The majority of people. The majority of people "want" taxes (even if because they are uninformed), but imposing taxes harms more than just the minority that don't want them, it also harms to people that wanted them in the first place. Maybe if you could disprove her main justification for agreeing with mob rule (that it is beneficial to the majority), then her idea would lose weight.

[Jeremi]

Yah, I figured. I only do these debate/discussions when I am eating or have some extra time to kill, but like I said, from what she says, she believes that it doesn't matter what the decision of the majority is, as long as the majority decides on something, then it is the moral thing to do because it benefits the majority of the people. Oh well, sucks know that you have 1 sociopath sister, 1 ignorant sister, and 1 angry/depressed/ignorant dad. Where do all you cool people live. I need to move because southern California sucks. =P

It does not even follow that what the majority of people choose would even logically benefit them. The majority votes quite often for things that harm them in the long term, or even short term.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

You could always bring a friend over to her house and start taking valuable stuff. When she gets upset, just say, "Woa! 66% > 33%. What's your problem?"

[abcqwerty123]

You could always bring a friend over to her house and start taking valuable stuff. When she gets upset, just say, "Woa! 66% > 33%. What's your problem?"

 

HAHAHAHA! I actually brought something like that up. I told her, so, you currently live with 3 people (my dad, friend and me) and as long as we 3 agree, you will agree? And she basically said no because this isn't a system and whether you like it or not, government is a system and blah blah blah. She is just another statist hypocrite. I was just wondering the best way of trying to convince her to use her brain, but after reading the comments saying basically the same thing I was thinking, I am pretty sure talking to her about it is pointless. =(

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

She is just another statist hypocrite.

 

Sophist was the word that came to my mind.

 

I would lead by example. If she wants to sick in the feces of moral relativism and claim its virtue, at some point or another she won't be able to handle the comparison of you on green pastures.

[abcqwerty123]

Sophist was the word that came to my mind.

 

I would lead by example. If she wants to sick in the feces of moral relativism and claim its virtue, at some point or another she won't be able to handle the comparison of you on green pastures.

 

Hahaha yup! =D