Mr.Anarchist Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 I am curious what you guys have to say about vasectomies. I searched around and couldn't find anything on this forum discussing the merits of vasectomies. This is also my first post, but I have been lurking for over a year. I am pondering the idea of having a vasectomy done. I wanted to hear any moral issues that might pertain. I understand I will be missing out of raising a child, that would be my child by blood, but as you'll see in the following points that may be a good thing for the unborn child and myself. I am only half way through "The Bomb in The Brain" series, but I'll tell you I am in the upper percentile of abuse that was inflicted on me as a child. I will do everything in my power repair the damage that was done and pursue a life of morality through UPB, but taking on the burden of a child is not something I can see myself taking on successfully. I am 22 (I figured someone would ask). Pros: 1. May ejaculate without pulling out (but puts you at higher risk of STDs) 2. Save ~$250,000 (one child with college, two children with college ~$500,000) 3. Procedure is covered by my insurance 4. No obligation to children = more experiences/opportunities in life 5. Won’t experience years of poor sleep 6. Can’t be enslaved for 18 years (more if two children) 7. Won’t have a piece of my heart out there able to be hurt that I’ll fret about 8. Can’t experience the possible devastation of burying my own children 9. Unborn child can’t become a hostage used against me 10. Unborn child can’t be kidnapped by Child Protective Services, abused, and indoctrinated 11. Unborn child won’t be born into debt/slavery 12. Unborn child won’t be born into a volatile and uncertain world Cons: 1. Limits my options of partners that might want to have their own children (but is that really a con?) 2. I won’t experience being a father (unless I adopt later on) 3. My “bloodline” ends (but what does that even mean?) 4. Possible pain in scrotum for rest of life (very small percentage) Questions for anyone who has had a Vasectomy: 1. Have you ever read “The Red Queen?” In it the opinion is propagated that biological life is merely a vessel and tool used to reproduce genes. Do you feel it makes the idea of a vasectomy less of big deal or is it irrelevant to the experiences you want to have in life since we are self-aware? 2. Do you regret not having options? 3. Opinion on “bloodline/legacies?” Is it just another selfish desire? 4. Experience pain from buildup of sperm in testicles or granulomas in scrotum? 5. Did you notice a drop of women you were able to date because the vasectomy disqualified you as a potential mate? 6. How do you feel about adoption later on, assuming the child in question is still only an infant (less likely abused)? 7. What do you think about the new male contraceptive RISUG that lasts 5 years, but is still in development? 8. Do you feel like a burden has been removed from your shoulders, knowing you’ll never have that liability (children) unless you decide to adopt?
ribuck Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 I had a vasectomy, but only after fathering two children. The vasectomy has been trouble-free, and I have no regrets. It's a much more serious decision for someone who is childless. I have heard of people who freeze their sperm before having a vasectomy, which gives them a good chance of fathering a child if they change their mind later (but success is not guaranteed). A vasectomy can sometimes be reversed by another operation, but again you can't count on success. The bloodline/legacy thing is interesting. I simply cannot see the point of those who are concerned about whether or not they pass on the family surname, yet lots of people do seem to care strongly about that. But one thing I did notice: after having children, I lost my fear of death. It makes no logical sense, because what "lives on" is some copies of my DNA rather than any part of myself, but my calm acceptance of death did arise from having children. Incidentally, "ejaculating after pulling out" (referred to in your post) doesn't guarantee against pregnancy. There are still some sperm floating around in the pre-ejaculate fluid.
shirgall Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 I got a vasectomy after I got married. I have had no problems with it, but sometimes I regret deciding not to have children of my own. It usually passes pretty quickly. And, yes, most of the time it's a feeling of a removed burden.
Mr.Anarchist Posted June 28, 2014 Author Posted June 28, 2014 I had a vasectomy, but only after fathering two children. The vasectomy has been trouble-free, and I have no regrets. It's a much more serious decision for someone who is childless. I have heard of people who freeze their sperm before having a vasectomy, which gives them a good chance of fathering a child if they change their mind later (but success is not guaranteed). A vasectomy can sometimes be reversed by another operation, but again you can't count on success. The bloodline/legacy thing is interesting. I simply cannot see the point of those who are concerned about whether or not they pass on the family surname, yet lots of people do seem to care strongly about that. But one thing I did notice: after having children, I lost my fear of death. It makes no logical sense, because what "lives on" is some copies of my DNA rather than any part of myself, but my calm acceptance of death did arise from having children. Incidentally, "ejaculating after pulling out" (referred to in your post) doesn't guarantee against pregnancy. There are still some sperm floating around in the pre-ejaculate fluid. Every year that goes by, it gets harder to reverse the operation. Not too mention it costs thousands of dollars and is very unlikely to succeed. Storing my sperm is not an option to me. I'm going to change my last name anyway. My last name is a constant reminder of my abusers, not too mention an annoyance because it so so damn long. Interesting that you lost your fear of death once you had children. I cry at the thought of the my mortality and that of my loved ones; but if I had a child I know that I would be terrified of death, but not for my own sake but that of my child. My biggest fear in life is fathering a child and orphaning said child through my death or incarceration. It would be the fulfillment of my darkest fears. In the world as it is and as it will be for the next few decades, I don't see myself having the resources to properly insure my child's safety, the mother's safety, and my continued survival to look after said child. So the remaining rationale behind starting a family boils down to the experiences in life I want to have, which is a selfish desire. Being selfish is fine if it doesn't hurt anyone. But in this case it possibly would. And the chances of having a successful family with my history and abilities to acquire resources, the economy, the poor selection of morale women, etc, is quite bleak. My original statement pertaining to "ejaculation without pulling out" as a pro, was in regards to post-vasectomy. I don't know how there would be sperm in the ejaculate at all after a vasectomy once the remaining sperm is flushed out (~3 months). I believe you misunderstood what I wrote. I got a vasectomy after I got married. I have had no problems with it, but sometimes I regret deciding not to have children of my own. It usually passes pretty quickly. And, yes, most of the time it's a feeling of a removed burden. Another good case. When I searched around elsewhere online, quite a few bad stories. But you have to consider most of the time the only people that comment are the select few that had bad experiences and if I had to guess some of the negative experiences of vasectomies were pure propaganda. The status quo definitely doesn't want the tax cattle to cease breeding. For those of you that have kids, how is it that I rarely see you parents smile. You guys look so beat down, most of the time at least. I know some friends that have had children and upon asking if it was worth it they say "yes." I believe they are being honest. They have they warmth of serenity when they say it, but that's it. The other 99.99999% of the time they are just trying to survive the day and don't give me the impression they are truly happy.
ribuck Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 As you say, there is zero sperm in the ejaculate three months after a vasectomy so there's zero risk of pregnancy from that time onwards. ... For those of you that have kids, how is it that I rarely see you parents smile. You guys look so beat down, most of the time at least. I know some friends that have had children and upon asking if it was worth it they say "yes." I believe they are being honest. They have they warmth of serenity when they say it, but that's it. The other 99.99999% of the time they are just trying to survive the day and don't give me the impression they are truly happy. Before I had children, I heard a lot of older parents say "I'm glad I had children, but now that the children have grown up I would never contemplate going through parenthood again". So the decision seems to be a close one. Now that my own children are getting older (late teens), I am starting to experience a similar feeling. For all the expense and hard work, children can be intensely rewarding. But those who didn't have children will always be wealthier, less tired, and probably in better physical shape too. In the past, it was the children and grandchildren who stopped many retired people from being lonely. Nowadays no-one can count on their children being around, when they can move around the world so easily, so that reason to have children no longer exists (if it was ever a valid reason anyway).
Mr.Anarchist Posted June 28, 2014 Author Posted June 28, 2014 As you say, there is zero sperm in the ejaculate three months after a vasectomy so there's zero risk of pregnancy from that time onwards. Before I had children, I heard a lot of older parents say "I'm glad I had children, but now that the children have grown up I would never contemplate going through parenthood again". So the decision seems to be a close one. Now that my own children are getting older (late teens), I am starting to experience a similar feeling. For all the expense and hard work, children can be intensely rewarding. But those who didn't have children will always be wealthier, less tired, and probably in better physical shape too. In the past, it was the children and grandchildren who stopped many retired people from being lonely. Nowadays no-one can count on their children being around, when they can move around the world so easily, so that reason to have children no longer exists (if it was ever a valid reason anyway). Interesting how there is a swing of opinion once the child reaches late puberty. Yes, I can see children fleeing especially if they were not peaceful parents. However, with the internet, loved ones are a few clicks away (video chat isn't being there in person, but better than a handwritten letter). I expected criticism of getting a vasectomy. I thought there would actually be some good rebuttals to having a vasectomy done. In fact, it seems like such a clear decision now I can't help but feel I'm missing something.
ribuck Posted June 28, 2014 Posted June 28, 2014 Interesting how there is a swing of opinion once the child reaches late puberty. I don't see it as a "change of mind". Rather I see it as a realization that raising children did provide great value, but that doing it a second time would not bring further value. I doubt anyone here will criticize you for considering a vasectomy. It's a big decision (because it's probably permanent), so it's not a decision to be undertaken lightly. But you're obviously not doing that - you have considered the issue and worked out the pros and cons based on your situation. Incidentally, you may have difficulty finding a surgeon to perform the operation given your age of 22. In the UK it would be virtually impossible. If you are in the US, I guess it's not a problem.
thelizardking52 Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 My wife wanted to have kids (biological children) before 30 or none at all, so I had the operation done. Just after the operation, the first couple months I would sometimes have some pain in the area coming and going throughout the day but nothing excrutiating. On occassion I still get sharp pains down there but they generally go away after a few moments and the incidents occuring are few and far between. I'll adopt once I've become ready to be a father if my wife and I decide to do that. I'd rather take a child away from the state than bring a new one into the world anyways. Whether you have the "blood lineage" or not is completely absurd, unless you think you are royalty (joking). The only downside I can think of is that you may not know the child's genetic preconditions. That said, I know if I had a biological child there would be a higher chance of mental illness and that was a strong reason for me to have the operation.
AustinJames Posted June 29, 2014 Posted June 29, 2014 Welcome Pros: 1. May ejaculate without pulling out (but puts you at higher risk of STDs) 2. Save ~$250,000 (one child with college, two children with college ~$500,000) 3. Procedure is covered by my insurance 4. No obligation to children = more experiences/opportunities in life 5. Won’t experience years of poor sleep 6. Can’t be enslaved for 18 years (more if two children) 7. Won’t have a piece of my heart out there able to be hurt that I’ll fret about 8. Can’t experience the possible devastation of burying my own children 9. Unborn child can’t become a hostage used against me 10. Unborn child can’t be kidnapped by Child Protective Services, abused, and indoctrinated 11. Unborn child won’t be born into debt/slavery 12. Unborn child won’t be born into a volatile and uncertain world Cons: 1. Limits my options of partners that might want to have their own children (but is that really a con?) 2. I won’t experience being a father (unless I adopt later on) 3. My “bloodline” ends (but what does that even mean?) 4. Possible pain in scrotum for rest of life (very small percentage) This list is flawed. You say that these are pros and cons of a vasectomy, but they are conflated with the pros and cons of having children, and having biological children. For the sake of clarity, it may be helpful to make a list of pros and cons of each category (children, adopted children, no children). The only pros that are exclusive are #1 (with the caveat that you can ejaculate without other birth control, without the concern of consequences) and #3. All the other pros are not unique to having a vasectomy; you can achieve all those things without a vasectomy, by utilizing other birth control methods. The flaw in this list reveals more than the list itself. The way you have gone about posing the question indicates to me that there are forces from your past that are driving this decision. I don't know your situation or your history, but I would make sure these are dealt with before even approaching such a life-altering decision. You should add to your list of cons (of not having any children): -The next generation will have at least one fewer well-developed, peace-loving, philosophically-inclined individuals (I assume you would be a peaceful parent) - You are less likely to have people around to take care of you in your old age -You are less likely to have a positive impact on future generations -You may experience chronic regret - Surgery always involves risk and recovery - Someone with a knife messes with your fun bits 1
Mr.Anarchist Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 I don't see it as a "change of mind". Rather I see it as a realization that raising children did provide great value, but that doing it a second time would not bring further value. I doubt anyone here will criticize you for considering a vasectomy. It's a big decision (because it's probably permanent), so it's not a decision to be undertaken lightly. But you're obviously not doing that - you have considered the issue and worked out the pros and cons based on your situation. Incidentally, you may have difficulty finding a surgeon to perform the operation given your age of 22. In the UK it would be virtually impossible. If you are in the US, I guess it's not a problem. Are you referring to diminishing returns? Okay, I understand now. Yes, it might be challenging to find a surgeon willing to respect my well thought out decision, assuming I go that route. My wife wanted to have kids (biological children) before 30 or none at all, so I had the operation done. Just after the operation, the first couple months I would sometimes have some pain in the area coming and going throughout the day but nothing excrutiating. On occassion I still get sharp pains down there but they generally go away after a few moments and the incidents occuring are few and far between. I'll adopt once I've become ready to be a father if my wife and I decide to do that. I'd rather take a child away from the state than bring a new one into the world anyways. Whether you have the "blood lineage" or not is completely absurd, unless you think you are royalty (joking). The only downside I can think of is that you may not know the child's genetic preconditions. That said, I know if I had a biological child there would be a higher chance of mental illness and that was a strong reason for me to have the operation. How would you describe the pain? Like getting kicked in the testicles or an awkward pinching of clothes? Well, my aunt has had schizophrenia for the past 20+ years along with the companion illnesses. My mother has had chronic depression, and I myself have had chronic depression. Considering what I know after watching the Bomb in the Brain series, I am very lucky to not have developed schizophrenia myself. I am skeptical of a genetic correlation, and instead believe the correlation is from the parenting. Nonetheless, I still have a predisposition for severe mental illnesses. In addition I also have bad genetics, that has reared it's head in the form of really bad eyes, back problems, auto immune disease, etc. I should probably add that to the list of reasons not to father a child. Welcome This list is flawed. You say that these are pros and cons of a vasectomy, but they are conflated with the pros and cons of having children, and having biological children. For the sake of clarity, it may be helpful to make a list of pros and cons of each category (children, adopted children, no children). The only pros that are exclusive are #1 (with the caveat that you can ejaculate without other birth control, without the concern of consequences) and #3. All the other pros are not unique to having a vasectomy; you can achieve all those things without a vasectomy, by utilizing other birth control methods. The flaw in this list reveals more than the list itself. The way you have gone about posing the question indicates to me that there are forces from your past that are driving this decision. I don't know your situation or your history, but I would make sure these are dealt with before even approaching such a life-altering decision. You should add to your list of cons (of not having any children): [1] - The next generation will have at least one fewer well-developed, peace-loving, philosophically-inclined individuals (I assume you would be a peaceful parent) [2] - You are less likely to have people around to take care of you in your old age [3] - You are less likely to have a positive impact on future generations [4] - You may experience chronic regret [5] - Surgery always involves risk and recovery [6] - Someone with a knife messes with your fun bits Thank you. Yes, your critique is spot on. I will separate it between the three categories. The point of the vasectomy is the finality of the decision. Having the vasectomy makes sure of those pros you are referencing. Could you be a little specific about these "forces from your past?" I have been quite forward explaining the extent of my childhood trauma. Those "forces from my past" is partly why I am considering getting a vasectomy. 1) I don't have to have a biological child to influence the next generation. 2) I wouldn't dare have a child with any intention of using that as a financial crutch later in life. That is harmfully selfish. Not to mention fiscally a poor decision. Spending ~$250,000 and 18 years of my life, to have someone stop by every few days for a few years is not a wise decision in my opinion. Think of the opportunity costs alone. 3) See #1; In addition saying that is like saying I'll have less of an effect on future generations if I don't become a public school teacher. 4) Possibly 5) True 6) Ties in with #5, but it is definitely worth the extra emphasis when discussing the "fun bits"
Mr.Anarchist Posted July 14, 2014 Author Posted July 14, 2014 I completed an excel sheet that explores the pros and cons of biological children, no children, adoption with vasectomy, and just vasectomy without any children. Let me know what you guys think. Perhaps I should try to objectify the decision more and assign numerical values to the individual pros and cons?
Frosty Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 I'm considering it, I consider myself a Man Going His Own Way (MGTOW) and in the UK the minimum child support payments for an adult earning an livable wage is about £50,000 over 18 years. I'm not risking paying that and I'm absolutely positive I do not want children. Even if that stance changed I certainly wouldn't want to bring another child into a world I don't consider very moral, full of debt and aggression, I'd consider raising a child who badly needs a home and was already born into a bad situation who needed out. The fact is that if you change your mind you have the opportunity to adopt, you can have the procedure reversed although it's expensive and not 100% guaranteed, you can also have some sperm frozen before having it done. It's becoming essential that men take control of their reproductive rights in the 21st century, most of the child suffering in the 1st world is coming from horrible broken homes and we basically need to be more careful what happens with our sperm in future, we cannot just leave it up to women to be responsible for their own birth control because we know that many are irresponsible or reckless.
Bel Rick Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 If you wait long enough to have a debate on whether having children is our purpose in life, there will only be one view point expressed.Life is like a game of pass the parcel, when it is your turn with the parcel, take your time unwrapping the present but always understand that when you are ready, you must pass the parcel along to the next generation so that they to, can have their fun.
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