Why don't people try to be better parents than their's were?

[kahvi]

Hi everyone. I'm a newcomer here. This is more of a rant than anything. I found Stefan and this movement through his Truth About Elliot Rodger video (it sounds like that brought a lot of people here) and he has really struck a chord with me. I had already held a lot of the same philosophical views on life that he espouses, but especially on peaceful parenting. I started out using the Baby Book attachment parenting with my now 2 year old, but I think that term applies more to the first year. "Peaceful parenting" is a more appropriate term for what my husband and I do now. Fortunately, both of us came from parents who were against spanking, so it comes pretty natural to us.

 

I've been listening to a lot of his call-in shows and I find myself in tears and in rage over what so many people have gone through as children. So many people think, "I'm going to raise my child the way my parents raised me." Why would you not even think to question or research the optimal way to raise a child? Why do so many people just stick to what they've experienced? Even though I feel I had a great childhood (there were a few bumps), even I want to be a better parent than my parents were to me. We've all got so much information at our fingertips and so many just fumble their way through parenting. I'm constantly analyzing everything I do. Just a couple days ago, my daughter was hitting me while playing and I tried to give her a time-out. Right away, I realized she didn't understand what I was doing and my husband agreed. We decided to try a different approach. We've switched to modeling good behavior for her. "Please don't hit mommy, sweety. Be gentle. Like this." I then take her hand and show her how to gently touch my face. It has worked wonderfully in just a couple days!

 

I don't think that my most of my friends routinely hit their kids. Just one slaps her 3 year-old daughter's hand when she doesn't want her to touch something, and she's threaten to spank her in my presence, too.  I'm wondering what others here would say to their friend if they heard them threaten their child with a spanking. She and I aren't very close, so I want to be pretty tactful, but I don't think I can just keep my mouth shut next time.

 

Anyway, I'm really enjoying the forum and hearing different peoples' ideas. Stefan's shows are great. I'm coming around on the libertarian ideals, but I still have a lot to learn.

[Kevin Beal]

Hi Kahvi! Welcome to the boards

 

I share your frustration. My own parents said that line – that they wanted to be better parents than their own. Unfortunately, they used that to excuse their own behavior.

 

When I tried to talk about the neglect and indifference that had a terrible effect on me, they would talk about their own parents and how they were worse, and their own childhoods more traumatic.

 

So, in a way, I'm glad they did better than their parents, but I deeply resent my own trauma being minimized.

 

I don't think that my most of my friends routinely hit their kids. Just one slaps her 3 year-old daughter's hand when she doesn't want her to touch something, and she's threaten to spank her in my presence, too.  I'm wondering what others here would say to their friend if they heard them threaten their child with a spanking. She and I aren't very close, so I want to be pretty tactful, but I don't think I can just keep my mouth shut next time.

I don't have any friends (or acquaintances) who hit their children, or if they do, they won't mention it to me. I've asked a few and they've all said they do not hit, so far.

 

My only experience with confronting a spanking parent was with a woman who I had no interest in being friends with and had no real desire to use kid gloves with her. I decided to take the UPB (Universally Preferable Behavior) approach and it went something like:

 

Me: do your kids get to hit you when you do something wrong?

Her: I'm the parent!

Me: so what? Why does that matter?

 

And she got very upset with me, repeated that she was the parent without offering any justification at all beyond that, called me names, and huffed and puffed and ran out slamming the door. She is a very physically attractive woman and is probably not used to guys standing up for people and themselves like that. I didn't take any of her character assassinations and was very persistent, which she seemed to have no idea how to handle. I never called her any names or said that she was evil or anything like that, but neither did I budge.

 

I haven't heard from her since, but I hope that only had a positive effect on the kids. Unfortunately, she's immature and hostile enough that it's possible she would cement in her bigotry.

 

If it were someone that I actually liked (learning about the hitting might put that into question for me, tho), then I would probably immediately respond to the threat of spanking by looking her in the eyes and saying "there's got to be a better way".

 

I think most people will be shocked by such a simple statement, see that it is so obviously true and start to back pedal. That simple disapproval is important, I think, to get people to start to filter these kinds of thoughts, instead of acting so impulsively to threaten their own children. It's disapproving of a pattern of behavior, and not necessarily the person themselves, so you can look at it that way to feel your healthy resentment about that while feeling the compassion you might want to feel toward the woman herself. I don't really bother with the compassion part, but multiple people have told me that it's important, so, I thought I'd throw it in there.

 

I especially like those simple statements that let people know that's not okay. I've done that in other contexts multiple times and I've noticed a pattern:

 

1. Immediately switching topics because they suddenly feel uncomfortable

2. not bringing it up for a while

3. bringing it up in a way that shows they've given it some real thought, maybe in the form of a moral dilemma, or a way where they've done it differently

4. talking candidly about it

 

Sometimes 3 and 4 never happen. Usually with people who are too invested in bad behavior. And I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, it's just what I've done.

 

I think it's awesome that you are so committed to peaceful parenting. My experience there is mostly theoretical, but you're actually doing it. That's way more important that writing articles or board posts. As the brits say: good on you!

[kahvi]

My only experience with confronting a spanking parent was with a woman who I had no interest in being friends with and had no real desire to use kid gloves with her. I decided to take the UPB (Universally Preferable Behavior) approach and it went something like:

 

Me: do your kids get to hit you when you do something wrong?

Her: I'm the parent!

Me: so what? Why does that matter?

 

That's a good way to handle it. Plant seeds of thought. Knowing her, she would just brush it off, "Oh, a little spanking from time to time is not going to hurt them." At that point, I would probably be cowed into not saying another word.

 

My problem is that I never really learned how to argue on my feet. I was a pretty easy-going child and my mom did not tolerate disagreement. She was more of a "because I said so, " type mom. While I prefer that to beatings and beratings, I feel robbed of a critical tool. It's one of many things that I want to do differently as a mom.

[Kevin Beal]

My problem is that I never really learned how to argue on my feet. I was a pretty easy-going child and my mom did not tolerate disagreement. She was more of a "because I said so, " type mom. While I prefer that to beatings and beratings, I feel robbed of a critical tool. It's one of many things that I want to do differently as a mom.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with you. Having to learn to negotiate and be assertive around my values later in my life was very difficult. Personally, I resent that very much.

 

In my opinion, the safest bet in dealing with people who might be slippery around these kinds of topics and where you might not have a bunch of facts and statistics memorized to use in debate, is to do a socratic dialog with them (which you've probably heard of or done before). So, if she says "Oh, a little spanking from time to time is not going to hurt them" or something like that, you can say something like "how do you know that?", which might become something like:

 

her: I was spanked and I turned out alright

you: but how do you know that you wouldn't have turned out a little or a lot better without the spanking? I don't understand how you can be so confident about that. Have you done any research into the effects of spanking?

 

The point being that you keep the focus where it belongs: on her rationalizations. And you're asking honest questions. The burden of proof is on her to justify hitting her kids.

 

In philosophy, positive claims, especially ones that involve logical contradictions (e.x. "me hitting you is good, you hitting me is bad") logically require the onus be put on that person to justify their claim. Otherwise, you don't know what you are arguing against or if you do, they can just claim later that you are arguing against something they weren't saying, when they actually were saying that.

 

Making them put their position out there explicitly means you know what the debate is in clear(er) terms and you'll be in a much better position to argue honestly and with confidence. Because most times in debate, people who are otherwise nice get,... well manipulative. And they can't get away with that as easily if you take the socratic dialog approach.

 

I don't know if that's helpful at all, but that's what I like to do.

[kahvi]

Great points. I know about the socratic method, but just don't have a lot of practice using it. It's time to start practicing.  I know I have to say something because, like E. Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[MysterionMuffles]

My God YES, kahvi! That's all it takes; a gentle reminder to BE gentle. When I read your post, I felt myself cringe remembering how my neice's mom yells at her saying "you don't hit mommy, THAT'S NOT NICE!" Without even realizing that my neice is picking up all these violent behaviours from her and her husband. That's all they ever do, they just say that's not nice, that's not nice, so the morality infliction has begun without them ever questioning their own code of ethics, or possibly lack there of.

 

Kahvi, reading posts like yours give me tremendous hope to know that there are quality women out there who logically understand spanking children is wrong without even having to come to FDR to learn that. We ALL know it was wrong, but there's only very few of us who are still able to be conscious of it and work to do different--and better--than with what we were raised with.

 

I was on a date recently with a woman who had no problem with her parents yelling at her and threatening to hit her with a slipper. She said that they never actually did hit, the threat was enough, and whether it's true or not, she was excusing hostility. Which was not so ironic that she also shared with me her history with ex-boyfriends, one of which yelled his lungs out at her and she was only smart enough to know to end the relationship, but not so much to do any self work to understand how and why she let a man like that in her life in the first place. I gave her absolute empathy for her history in childhood and romantic relationships, but then I told her of the abuse I suffered under my ex-girlfriend's impulsive fist, and this woman laughed. I knew I had to end the date very soon after.

 

The reason why I brought that up is because she was nearly as attractive as you are, (not quite, but I must say you are very pretty) and to me it begs the question as to how many quality women are out there? And how many of them have basic empathy and self knowledge, let alone have your level of physical attractiveness? I also bring this date experience because I want to know if you and your husband had these childhood and child rearing conversations before you got married. If so, how did that go? To me it looks like it went well, but I would like a few more details.

 

Kevin, kudos to you for standing up to that woman and showing her that her looks aren't always gonna last. I got the impression that even if she has many years to go, at least you gave her the idea that her looks aren't always gonna get her out of everything. The compassion thing might be much more important for strangers because you should make a connection before you can make a change. Otherwise they'll just perceive it as you attacking them on their illusions instead of helping them understand that they ARE illusions.

 

I don't speak from a very high level of authority because I often forget the compassion component as well to these kinds of conversations with potentially abusive parents, but then again I DID try with my neice's parents for 2 years--and I've learned that they are fundamentally broken are damned to deal with the effects of their shitty parenting in the future. I did my best, I really did, when I took care of my neice for them for a year and a half. I showed her enough difference of interaction to let her know that it doesn't always have to involve threats and punishment to get compliance. Much like you kahvi, my neice only complied with me when I was gentle and understanding. And I don't mean to say that she had bow to my will all the time or anything like that, she has denied my requests and I did take those moments personally, but I knew had to give her the space to assert her individuality. I just now have absolute sympathy that that kind of "rebellion" is not appreciated where she lives and it makes me tremendously sad.

 

Sorry to make this about me, but that's just how well this thread has touched me deeply!

OOOOH and to add because I only read the first two posts before I felt compelled to reply:

 

Socratic Method might be better to short circuit people's thinking instead of throwing facts at them. It is my belief that for anyone to listen to you, you must empty their cups before you fill them. This method of questioning actually helps people undo their OWN illusions from simply hearing themselves reason out their thought patterns that may in fact turn out unreasonable. Compassion and the Socratic Method is what I think is gonna save the world, which is why I love the call in shows. Stef uses those two so effectively before going on his long rants and ultimately providing objective feedback. 

[MMX2010]

Playing Devil's Advocate: I think most parents strongly believe that they do parent better than their own parents, but they measure in terms of providing material goods / educational opportunities, rather than providing peace, stability, and emotional (non-violent) connection.  So peaceful parenting (in my opinion) has to downplay the importance of material wealth and education in order to be successful. 

[LovePrevails]

 My own parents said that line – that they wanted to be better parents than their own. Unfortunately, they used that to excuse their own behavior.

 

When I tried to talk about the neglect and indifference that had a terrible effect on me, they would talk about their own parents and how they were worse, and their own childhoods more traumatic.

 

So, in a way, I'm glad they did better than their parents, but I deeply resent my own trauma being minimized.

 

yup I got this from my mum too consistenetly, seems to be recocurring

 

apparently "I wanted to do better than my parents" excuses everything else

[bootoo]

I dont think you need to limit yourself to being better than you had, you can be as good as or better than the best - you arent limited to your own life experiences or your parents

[kahvi]

For some reason, my computer is not allowing me to quote someone, but this is a response to Rainbow.

 

Hey Rainbow. I'm sorry I took so long to respond. I haven't been on the forums for awhile. Thanks for the compliment.

 

My husband and I were together for over 10 years before we had our little girl and had had many conversations about parenting, both explicit and implicit. We pretty much agreed on everything. If we did have any disagreements, we were and are still both willing to here out each other's arguments. Sorry I can't go into more depth, but my girl is demanding my attention.

[NGardner]

Parents do not parent better than their parents because they condone their parents actions. Staying in contact with your abusers sets your ethical compass. If you split from your parents you are setting a standard in relationships. If you leave an parent that lied to you, you child has free reign to say 'you just lied to me and you left your parent for that, therefore i can leave you" 

[Magenta]

I was just browsing a stand-up comedy subreddit and came across a wonderfully relevant image:

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/standupshots/comments/1ce2nk/hit_my_kid/

[JSDev]

Speaking candidly for myself as a parent, before listening to Stefan, I prided myself in being philosophical. I was educated and I eschewed the religion of my parents. I thought I made it through my painful childhood history. I was a man now. Now I know that was all bullshit. I was angry and bitter, sarcastic, critical, and just mean to my kids at times. On the whole, and to most people who know me, I'm pretty laid back, and I thought that was the kind of parent I was, but it's the mean stuff my kids will remember the most. I became kind of fatalistic and depressed thinking about what I did. I recall feeling really selfish during a conflict and hurting one of my kids feelings, and thinking, what about my feelings. It was easy to just disappear into my home office and just do work, or stay late at my day job, to avoid being around my kids who probably hated me. Even though deep down I didn't believe it, I excused my behavior because it was how I was raised, and it felt like I had no control over what the universe had determined for our lives, so why even bother.

 

For the record, the last couple years of listening to Stefan, has changed the path for my life, irrevocably, and I work every day on having peaceful connected relationships with my kids. Not saying it's not without it's challenges and setbacks, but there's definitely a lot more joy in the house.