My relationship with assertiveness

[Yeravos]

I have problems with assertiveness. That includes when other people around me express assertiveness, and when I wish to be assertive.

 

I spoke about this just now with another FDR-member. We had talked for a while, when he said that while he really enjoyed our conversation, he had to go and get some sleep. This evoked a feeling of sadness and guilt on my part. I felt as if I had done something wrong in the interaction, that I had been inconsiderate. We took some time to talk about my experience, and turns out, suprise suprise, he said it had nothing to do with our conversation. If he could, he would have loved for it to keep going. It's just he had to get some sleep.

 

What I could gather from thinking about it and talking with my friend, is that before, other peoples needs have been negative to me. Especially with my mom. That she used to express, both implicitly and explicitly, that I was bothersome to her. That my existence was interfering with her needs.

What is a dependant child supposed to do in such a situation? Why, the logical course of action, is to reject yourself, by becoming critical of yourself and learning to please your parent, and in the end, please others. A people-pleaser. This is one side of the ''assertive-coin'' relating to me.

 

The other side of it, is to express needs of my own. I find it very difficult to express my needs. I will say yes to things, even though I want to say no. And if I have a need, I will most likely no bring it up, having a voice telling me ''You will bother that person if you do that! They'll get annoyed with you! You do not have any value to offer! Your needs are inferior to other people's needs''. And I bend to that critical voice, staying quiet when I have a need. It ties in with what I wrote above about my mother. Not only did I have to make sure I did not interfer with her needs, I also had to supress my own needs because they annoyed her.

 

The guy I talked to has similar problems. So we decided that we are going to work on getting more assertive with our needs, and deal with our feelings arising around the assertiveness of eachother.

 

Are there other people here who have experienced/experiences similar relationships with assertiveness? I'd love to hear other people's perspectives, as always

[Demosthenes_]

I want to give a quick summary of your two points just to make sure I understand.

On one side of the coin, when other people express their wants/needs which deter interaction from you, such as someone going to the bathroom while you and they are eating dinner, it makes you feel negative of yourself.

On the other side you have a hard time expressing your wants/needs so that you do not upset other people.

Am I correct in the interpretation?

[cynicist]

I have had this problem too and what helps me is being conscious of it and practicing with other FDR members. What I mean by that is when someone asks about my preference, rather than try to figure out what they want, I focus on myself and see how I feel about the request. If I'm excited/enthusiastic then it's an obvious yes, and if not then it's a no.

 

Keep in mind that your preference is just your preference, like what flavor of ice cream you enjoy, it's not an imposition on anyone else. (I like vanilla doesn't mean everyone else has to eat vanilla ice cream lol) If you slip up and say yes when you don't feel like it, then bring it up instead of hiding it. And the most important thing is to avoid self-attacking when you do slip or hide it, just recognize what happened and reaffirm your desire to act differently next time. 

 

I've noticed that I really do have to focus on my feelings, if I'm distracted by thoughts I fallback to the old habit automatically. Over time I'm sure the new habit will replace the old.

[Yeravos]

I want to give a quick summary of your two points just to make sure I understand.

On one side of the coin, when other people express their wants/needs which deter interaction from you, such as someone going to the bathroom while you and they are eating dinner, it makes you feel negative of yourself.

On the other side you have a hard time expressing your wants/needs so that you do not upset other people.

Am I correct in the interpretation?

Yes, that is spot on.

 

 

I have had this problem too and what helps me is being conscious of it and practicing with other FDR members. What I mean by that is when someone asks about my preference, rather than try to figure out what they want, I focus on myself and see how I feel about the request. If I'm excited/enthusiastic then it's an obvious yes, and if not then it's a no.

 

Keep in mind that your preference is just your preference, like what flavor of ice cream you enjoy, it's not an imposition on anyone else. (I like vanilla doesn't mean everyone else has to eat vanilla ice cream lol) If you slip up and say yes when you don't feel like it, then bring it up instead of hiding it. And the most important thing is to avoid self-attacking when you do slip or hide it, just recognize what happened and reaffirm your desire to act differently next time. 

 

I've noticed that I really do have to focus on my feelings, if I'm distracted by thoughts I fallback to the old habit automatically. Over time I'm sure the new habit will replace the old.

Thanks for chiming in Robert! I think I have come to the same conclusion.

[Demosthenes_]

Yes, that is spot on.

When a person leaves, do you feel like you want them to stay gone, you wish they came back, or do you wish that you were gone from the place that the other person left from i.e. a restaurant. When a person leaves, are there any other verbs or adjectives you feel/want to do?

 

How many people have you gone out with? Have you ever asked any of them out? How many people in your life would you consider a friend? How many jobs have you had and what is the typical length you hold a job? How many different places have you lived and were they because of a job/school or family/friends? How often do you interact with your family? 

 

I am asking these questions to understand the degree to which guilt and anxiety affect you.

 

I do not currently have the issues that you do, but I used to. I was anxious of what others thought of me and the results of my actions. This lead me to being very passive around the people I was around. It was sometimes okay because the people who got to know me often fought their way to get to know me, but in general I was an intimate person, at best. This changed because instead of seeing things from their point of view at my point of view, I just saw things at their point of view.

 

Say I walk up to you and ask if you can split a $5? In your case you may believe I am asking you to do something for me and do not want you to let me down, so you should it. If you say no, you've let a person who needed you down, so you cannot say no. If I look at it from their perspective, I am a person who is approachable and can likely help my situation. You feel guilt when there is no reason to feel guilt. All things are 50/50. If someone gives, you should give. If someone pushes, you should push. The only problem is knowing how to identify is someone is truly pushing or giving. What I mean by this is, if the FDR member went to sleep to get away from you, they are pushing. If the FDR member went to sleep so he could talk to you again later, they are giving. How to identify this is to know is the person rational, and if they are, which is the rational result. As of right now, I feel your issues are that you feel guilt when guilt is not warranted and you may have issues in understanding other people's intentions because of the guilt. For now it is to figure out what you feel guilty about. If you do not agree with my conclusion, please let me know why.

[Yeravos]

Thank you for the elaborate post Demosthenes!

 

When a person leaves, do you feel like you want them to stay gone, you wish they came back, or do you wish that you were gone from the place that the other person left from i.e. a restaurant. When a person leaves, are there any other verbs or adjectives you feel/want to do?

 

I'd like them to stay, at least when it's a person I enjoy spending time with, like the friend I mentioned before. Also, I believe there is a part of me that feels abandoned kind of?  That ''Well, that was enjoyable. But now it's gone.'' 

 

 

I do not currently have the issues that you do, but I used to. I was anxious of what others thought of me and the results of my actions. This lead me to being very passive around the people I was around. It was sometimes okay because the people who got to know me often fought their way to get to know me, but in general I was an intimate person, at best. This changed because instead of seeing things from their point of view at my point of view, I just saw things at their point of view.

 

The thing about passive strikes a cord in me. I also resort to being passive, fearing to act in a way that will cause people to dislike me. I am glad to hear that you have moved pass these issues. Can I ask, how severe they were, and how you managed to finally put them behind you?

 

That is actually a profound trait in me... That I dare not do things on my own if it is for example work-related. I will instead ask someone who knows, and ask them exactly how something is done, so that I do not screw up. It can be really insignificant, small things that I DO know what to do with. But I'll still ask ''How''?

That is very interesting... I haven't seen this in such a conscious way before.

 

 

Say I walk up to you and ask if you can split a $5? In your case you may believe I am asking you to do something for me and do not want you to let me down, so you should it. If you say no, you've let a person who needed you down, so you cannot say no. If I look at it from their perspective, I am a person who is approachable and can likely help my situation. You feel guilt when there is no reason to feel guilt. All things are 50/50. If someone gives, you should give. If someone pushes, you should push. The only problem is knowing how to identify is someone is truly pushing or giving. What I mean by this is, if the FDR member went to sleep to get away from you, they are pushing. If the FDR member went to sleep so he could talk to you again later, they are giving. How to identify this is to know is the person rational, and if they are, which is the rational result. As of right now, I feel your issues are that you feel guilt when guilt is not warranted and you may have issues in understanding other people's intentions because of the guilt. For now it is to figure out what you feel guilty about. If you do not agree with my conclusion, please let me know why.

 

I'd have the urge to do that if I knew you somewhat, yes. I am very quick to please others if they ask for help, going on automation practically.

 

And yes, I think you are right. I am mistaking needs in a healthy adult-to-adult relationship with a toxic adult-to-child relationship. And to get to the core of where that guilt is coming from will help me see that I do not have that kind of toxic relationship anymore.

[Demosthenes_]

Thank you for the elaborate post Demosthenes!

 

 

I'd like them to stay, at least when it's a person I enjoy spending time with, like the friend I mentioned before. Also, I believe there is a part of me that feels abandoned kind of?  That ''Well, that was enjoyable. But now it's gone.'' 

So what you're telling me is that you're a dog?

 

Jokes aside you only talked about your mother and say "...need to please your parent."

On what conditions did your father leave ie died, divorced, ran away, never knew him? What was and is the relationship between your parents if there is any?

 

You feel like your existence is to please people which you have become socially close to. I could be wrong about how expansive the guilt in your life goes, but you were saying you were enjoying the time with the FDR member, so you became socially close with this person. They left, so you felt abandoned. I feel it is safe to assume you do not feel the same way to people you have no become socially close to? I do not believe it needs to be positive or a negative relationship. You were socially close and dependent on your mother but you also feel your existence to her was a nuisance. I imagine it is like every time you are around her she is leaving you conversationally by putting you down or deterring you from what you know or believe.

 

The difference I would imagine between positive and negative relationships with you is if it is positive you are more engaging because you know the person's interests. If it is negative you are passive. If this is true, you assume people have negative feelings rather than neutral or positive feelings towards you. This would be a rational response because if you were dependent and close with your mother, she would be the primary source of learning and interacting. Please let me know if any of this isn't true or off base.

 

 

 

The thing about passive strikes a cord in me. I also resort to being passive, fearing to act in a way that will cause people to dislike me. I am glad to hear that you have moved pass these issues. Can I ask, how severe they were, and how you managed to finally put them behind you?

 

That is actually a profound trait in me... That I dare not do things on my own if it is for example work-related. I will instead ask someone who knows, and ask them exactly how something is done, so that I do not screw up. It can be really insignificant, small things that I DO know what to do with. But I'll still ask ''How''?

That is very interesting... I haven't seen this in such a conscious way before.

When I was nine my mother went to jail. She was an alcoholic and physically abusive, but compared to what would happen after she went to jail, I felt a lot more protection when I was with her. The short story is I lived with my father in a less desirable neighborhood. Seeing prostitution, hard drug use, and being physically abused much worse than my mother from older kids and some other adults became a regular thing and I never became content to it. Have a 20-something guy, and a lady a bit older than him, break into your house, go into your bedroom, push you off your bed and tell you to get out. Having to then witness the man on my bed ripping the woman's cloths off and she is laughing in some drunken stupor, until I barged out of my house in tears. My parents would not call the police because break-ins were common and the police would typically ignore them unless someone died or was injured.

 

After six months of this I never felt safe anywhere. For a while I wished I was a mute so that I could not talk and then no one would want attention from me. Any interaction for almost two years with anyone else was a negative one; in school, at home, or on the streets, it only got worse and would be any better until I got out of high school. When I was in high school, I would only talk if I was spoken to and purposely kept the conversation as short as possible. In some cases I would purposely be boring so that people would not want to talk to me.

 

The pain I felt for a long time no longer came from others around me, but generated it in myself. A lot of people were friendly to me but I was too afraid to see that and made myself afraid to be around them. I often though that it was them tricking me like I had been before, so it was best I stayed away. It was understanding the current environment that helped me get past it all. I used to be in a justified state if terror because my environment was not safe. I moved to a place which was safe but I was still terrified. Right now you are in a safe place -- I like to imagine so -- but you still act in in your previous environment when you were dependent on your mom. There is no equation to stop feeling guilty about your existence immediately or even soon. I started to understand other people's intentions. I questioned if they were rational people. If they were rational, then I must think if their intentions would be the result of someone who is rational. So, when the FDR member wanted to leave, if they are rational, you must think of rational reasons why he'd want to leave. If there was no point in the conversation which the person acted deterred from you, but the only reason he would leave were for positive reasons like he actually needed to sleep.

 

I am putting it in an over analytical point of view just for understanding the motions. The reality is that you must understand where you are right now, which is not in a place where you must feel guilty to survive. When you were dependent on your mom, you were justified to feel guilty, but you no longer are because you are not in that environment. Realizing what environment you are in will not come easily. It would be like living in Alberta, Canada for your entire life and then one day living in Panama. It only makes sense that you are having a hard time adapting, but you must adapt. And how to adapt is to realize and understand your environment.

[Yeravos]

Jokes aside you only talked about your mother and say "...need to please your parent."

On what conditions did your father leave ie died, divorced, ran away, never knew him? What was and is the relationship between your parents if there is any?

 

 

My father was distant. He'd never engage me in conversation, and I always felt like I was a disappointment to him. The relationship between him and my mother was basically no romance, no closeness, and she was dominating him. He'd have nothing to say against her, and when he did, she'd become extremely passive aggressive, and would shout a lot.

 

 

You feel like your existence is to please people which you have become socially close to. I could be wrong about how expansive the guilt in your life goes, but you were saying you were enjoying the time with the FDR member, so you became socially close with this person. They left, so you felt abandoned. I feel it is safe to assume you do not feel the same way to people you have no become socially close to?

 

Hm, that isn't exactly it. I can feel the abandonment with people I do not know well, but want to get to know better.

 

 

When I was nine my mother went to jail. She was an alcoholic and physically abusive, but compared to what would happen after she went to jail, I felt a lot more protection when I was with her. The short story is I lived with my father in a less desirable neighborhood. Seeing prostitution, hard drug use, and being physically abused much worse than my mother from older kids and some other adults became a regular thing and I never became content to it. Have a 20-something guy, and a lady a bit older than him, break into your house, go into your bedroom, push you off your bed and tell you to get out. Having to then witness the man on my bed ripping the woman's cloths off and she is laughing in some drunken stupor, until I barged out of my house in tears. My parents would not call the police because break-ins were common and the police would typically ignore them unless someone died or was injured.

 

After six months of this I never felt safe anywhere. For a while I wished I was a mute so that I could not talk and then no one would want attention from me. Any interaction for almost two years with anyone else was a negative one; in school, at home, or on the streets, it only got worse and would be any better until I got out of high school. When I was in high school, I would only talk if I was spoken to and purposely kept the conversation as short as possible. In some cases I would purposely be boring so that people would not want to talk to me.

 

The pain I felt for a long time no longer came from others around me, but generated it in myself. A lot of people were friendly to me but I was too afraid to see that and made myself afraid to be around them. I often though that it was them tricking me like I had been before, so it was best I stayed away. It was understanding the current environment that helped me get past it all. I used to be in a justified state if terror because my environment was not safe. I moved to a place which was safe but I was still terrified. Right now you are in a safe place -- I like to imagine so -- but you still act in in your previous environment when you were dependent on your mom. There is no equation to stop feeling guilty about your existence immediately or even soon. I started to understand other people's intentions. I questioned if they were rational people. If they were rational, then I must think if their intentions would be the result of someone who is rational. So, when the FDR member wanted to leave, if they are rational, you must think of rational reasons why he'd want to leave. If there was no point in the conversation which the person acted deterred from you, but the only reason he would leave were for positive reasons like he actually needed to sleep.

 

God, that is a terrible story. I am at a loose for words. I am so sorry that was your childhood. Horrible. I commend you on surviving it, and making your way to FDR!

[Demosthenes_]

My father was distant. He'd never engage me in conversation, and I always felt like I was a disappointment to him. The relationship between him and my mother was basically no romance, no closeness, and she was dominating him. He'd have nothing to say against her, and when he did, she'd become extremely passive aggressive, and would shout a lot.

How old were you when you came to the conclusion that your father felt like you were a disappointment? 

 

 

Hm, that isn't exactly it. I can feel the abandonment with people I do not know well, but want to get to know better.

And you do not feel abandonment with people you do not want to get to know better/be close to? How do you know that you want to know them?

 

 

God, that is a terrible story. I am at a loose for words. I am so sorry that was your childhood. Horrible. I commend you on surviving it, and making your way to FDR!

Humans are like water, like the famous Bruce Lee quote; you pour water in a cup and the water becomes a cup. You put people in an environment and they will mold to it. I was put in a less desirable environment and acted in ways to protect myself. It is good if the story is recognized but more significant is knowing that people can overcome suffering. How to do that is through self knowledge, particularly in the environment around you and knowing its past to act in its the future. If you feel pain in an environment which may not justify those levels of pain, you are water pretending to be a cup when you're in a bowl. It is never learning how to be something which is important, it is learning how to change when your environment calls for it which is best for your self progress.

[aFireInside]

I remember you mentioned to me that you read RTR is it also hard to express you feelings in the moment.

I ask this because if you can share your feelings in the moment wouldn't you also share your preferences? And if you express your preferences wouldn't that be assertive ?

[Yeravos]

How old were you when you came to the conclusion that your father felt like you were a disappointment? 

 

Around... 7-8 I think. When I started to play a lot of video games (he never liked me playing video games).

 

 

And you do not feel abandonment with people you do not want to get to know better/be close to? How do you know that you want to know them?

 

That is a good question... Now that I think of it, I think it is more accurate to say that I feel abandoned if someone has interacted with me, I liked it, and they ''go away'' so to say.

 

Humans are like water, like the famous Bruce Lee quote; you pour water in a cup and the water becomes a cup. You put people in an environment and they will mold to it. I was put in a less desirable environment and acted in ways to protect myself. It is good if the story is recognized but more significant is knowing that people can overcome suffering. How to do that is through self knowledge, particularly in the environment around you and knowing its past to act in its the future. If you feel pain in an environment which may not justify those levels of pain, you are water pretending to be a cup when you're in a bowl. It is never learning how to be something which is important, it is learning how to change when your environment calls for it which is best for your self progress.

 

Agree 100%, very well put. The fluidity of man.

 

 

I remember you mentioned to me that you read RTR is it also hard to express you feelings in the moment.I ask this because if you can share your feelings in the moment wouldn't you also share your preferences? And if you express your preferences wouldn't that be assertive ?

 

Yes, it is difficult for me to share my feelings in the moment. I am working on it, but it is difficult. Feels like I have a huge wall in my mind that I have to climb in order to share my emotional state with others.