Matt H Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Hey everybody - I just started dating a girl I've known for a while, only been out a couple of times. Yesterday we were having a nice long "getting to know you" talk, and she confessed/confided/let slip (lol) that she is basically her mom's mom. Her mother is a helpless "victim" in her words, and although she says she hates that about her mom, she readily admits that she enables the behavior. Although they live in different places in the same city, she cooks meals for her mom, buys her groceries. Yesterday she told me she was going over today to set up a new bed frame for her mom's bed. Her dad was apparently quite controlling and abusive. The parents split when she was only 5, so she's never really known them together. He died a couple of years ago, and this seems to contribute to her need to provide for her mom. She has been to therapy at some point in the last couple years, and talks about all the great things that did for her. She comes across as a very strong, independent, and confident woman (which is what really attracted me). This thing with her mom sticks out even more as a red flag. I don't know if this should be a deal breaker, as in a Matt-sized hole in the wall of her apartment. Or I should just let it play out. I certainly feel grateful to Stef and the group here for helping achieve a level of self knowledge and awareness to catch something like this. I wouldn't have picked up on it even a year ago. Appreciate all your thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demosthenes_ Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 From an immediate point of view, this would be a red flag for me. She is an enabler because she does things which are, presumably asked of her, but has an opposite opinion of doing those actions. It is possible that she knows that she is an enabler but the idea eclipsed from any change in her life that may have come from therapy. If this problem was going on before she went to therapy and continues to, how much help did the therapy truly do? It would be like holding a painting and flipping it upside down. It is still a painting, but it is being seen from a different perspective. Would you imagine that a person who says they do not like the way hot dogs taste but then eats hot dogs could be easily determined as virtuous? To be more blunt, she has an opinion of something and does the exact opposite of what she says. Do you believe it is possible this woman would not do others things like this in her life? If her parents split up when she was five and the father recently died, what does the dad have to do with her mom and why she enables this behavior? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyD Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Thin-slice it. I bet you already know the answer. If this is a problem for you now, it's still going to be a problem in 10 years. Actually I bet in most failed relationships each person knew how it would fail within the first couple of times of seeing each other. If she never got the chance to have a mom how is she going to be around her own kids? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 If her parents split up when she was five and the father recently died, what does the dad have to do with her mom and why she enables this behavior?I have no idea. I certainly didn't put those two things together, but somehow she has managed to. To clarify - she acts like this behavior is a vice, like smoking or something. She gets embarrassed to discuss it, and knows I will potentially think less of her.Thin-slice it. I bet you already know the answer. If this is a problem for you now, it's still going to be a problem in 10 years. Actually I bet in most failed relationships each person knew how it would fail within the first couple of times of seeing each other. If she never got the chance to have a mom how is she going to be around her own kids?I don't view it as a problem "for me." But now, after gaining the ability to foresee future problems, with assistance from guys like you as well, I definitely see how I will see it as a problem for me down the line. It's obvious there would be boundary issues, knowing that her mom is so demanding of her daughter's time. I sure as hell am not going to compete with the mom for her time or attention. And the mom must have such control over her, at some point we would end up at odds with each other on some matter of importance. I couldn't deal with knowing she would choose her mom's opinion or desire over mine.So yeah - you are right. It's a big loud ugly siren going off. Life is too short! :)Thanks for your feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demosthenes_ Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I have no idea. I certainly didn't put those two things together, but somehow she has managed to.To clarify - she acts like this behavior is a vice, like smoking or something. She gets embarrassed to discuss it, and knows I will potentially think less of her. A few more questions for you... How good looking is she (1-10 it, if it helps you). Have you slept with her yet? How long have you actually known her, like seen her more than 2 times a week outside of work, if you do work with her. What were the dates with her like? Could you better explain why she feels like this is a vice? I get the impression she does this because she knows she shouldn't but does because she is holding onto something. Do you honestly think this sounds healthy? If this is something she blames on her father, such as she mentioned her father's death and now feels like she should help her mother even though she believes it is bad to, in what way did therapy help her get over he father's death? If she did start doing this once her father died, she still needs help. If that is true, would you believe you could tackle this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanT Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I certainly feel grateful to Stef and the group here for helping achieve a level of self knowledge and awareness to catch something like this. I wouldn't have picked up on it even a year ago. Eek yeah, I'd have probably even been like, 'aww that's caring of her' She seems to at least grasps that its pretty dysfunctional, but as Demosthenes said, 'she has an opinion of something and does the exact opposite of what she says.'. Indeed for me It'd probably make this an even bigger red flag than if she thought it normal and was happy with the situation, if that makes sense? Kinda like, 'if this amount of self-knowledge and awareness hasn't effected her behavior....what will?' Can certainly empathize with her though, as I was in a very similar situation with my grandma, she raised me and after my grandad died became progressively more dependent. I really didn't want to live like that, knew I should've been free, out in the world building my own life, but equally I knew without me there she'd basically be one of those lonely old ladies with nothing left to live for. Besides which by that stage she couldn't have looked after herself even if she'd wanted to....that's some guilt trip trap, so in the end I just stuck it out till she died. So, how old is this girls mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 A few more questions for you...How good looking is she (1-10 it, if it helps you).Have you slept with her yet?How long have you actually known her, like seen her more than 2 times a week outside of work, if you do work with her.What were the dates with her like?Could you better explain why she feels like this is a vice? I get the impression she does this because she knows she shouldn't but does because she is holding onto something. Do you honestly think this sounds healthy? If this is something she blames on her father, such as she mentioned her father's death and now feels like she should help her mother even though she believes it is bad to, in what way did therapy help her get over he father's death? If she did start doing this once her father died, she still needs help. If that is true, would you believe you could tackle this problem?Purely from a physical appearance standpoint. I'd put her at about an 8. We haven't slept together. We have known each other about 3 years. We live in different cities about 2 hrs apart. We work for the same company, but in different locations. So before we started seeing each other outside of work, we would only see each other maybe twice a month. The dates have been very enjoyable. We have a great rapport with each other, and I am drawn to her because she really enjoys intellectual challenges, and sees my intelligence as an attractive quality. We can disagree on things, and debate different topics for hours. Our dates have been usually centered around a concert or sporting event that is really just an excuse to hang out and talk. We haven't yet been on a formal "date," like dinner and a movie or something. I think we both enjoy the interaction more than anything. She definitely has some unresolved issues around her parents and childhood. That's becoming more clear to me. I think characterizing her behavior towards her mom as a vice was based on the way she acts. It's a reaction that we both understand that she's better than this. She knows better, but for some reason she likes it. I don't know if she likes being needed, perhaps. From what she has told me, her relationship with her father (being that he was a controlling, abusive prick) was very strained, and they didn't speak for several years. Apparently he figured out he was going to die soon, so he reached out to her and tried to make up. She expressed a lot of guilt, because she rejected his attempts to make up in the end. They had gotten back to speaking terms, but not much more. I have shared a lot of thoughts with her around the "blood is thicker than water" fallacy, that de-FOOing is many times a healthy thing, and that her poor victim mom was responsible for bringing the abusive father into their lives. She's very receptive to these ideas and agrees with them in theory. But it's as though she just doesn't internalize it, or feel that it's a problem for her that she needs to address. It all boils down to "I like my mom, we're good friends, and I want to be there for her." The logical inconsistency doesn't bother her. Her mom is about 62 I believe. Her had was 74 when he died, so he was easily 15 years older. I certainly don't think I am the one to tackle this problem. I am more in the place of - is this a dealbreaker, or is this just a flaw in another human being who seems otherwise virtuous to me, but needs to return to therapy to get herself in the right place, before we made any type of long term commitment. I went to a therapist for several months, purely because I wanted to grow. Listening to Stef, seeing that I had a childhood that would be considered wonderful by most standards, but had some abusive elements to it, I took advantage of having access to sessions with a therapist covered via the benefits I have in my job and tackled that issue. So I understand that people have these pieces of baggage. She has demonstrated a willingness to seek help when she felt it was needed, so that's a huge positive in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealP Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 This is easier said than done, but I think it would be very productive to tell her about your concerns and how you feel about them, and then see what happens, how she responds. It will definitely give you more certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lians Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 What does your gut say? Also, how many red flags would she have seen in you had you not been exposed to FDR? I don't think I'd be able to count mine - there were that many. This is why I choose to focus on people's strength of character and commitment to principles (once exposed to them). There's a podcast I found particularly helpful when it comes to approaching non-FDR people: https://board.freedomainradio.com/files/file/57-fdr-graduation-the-calm-beyond-the-storm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMatrixHasMe Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Lemme guess..she's hot and she needs help putting the bed frame together? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLovingKindness Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 We have a great rapport with each other, and I am drawn to her because she really enjoys intellectual challenges, and sees my intelligence as an attractive quality. We can disagree on things, and debate different topics for hours. If she were a he, would you have great rapport? Would you be debating with him for hours? And if someone could tell me how to quote correctly, I would appreciate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demosthenes_ Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I can go out and run 5 miles a day and tell people that I run and it would be true. But if I also eat 6 crispy creme donuts a day on top of a regular diet, the running doesn't do too much for me since I am not becoming any healthier because the bad food is combating the good I do to my body. It is a good thing that she was willing to go to therapy, but if she still has unresolved issues and cannot determine why the issues were there, the therapy did nothing for her. The effort was admirable but the problems in her life which pushed her to go to therapy were not solved from therapy. I know you know this because you recognize she has unresolved issues with her parents even after she stopped going to therapy. If her reaction to her father's death is her taking care of her mother, then it is blatant that she has issues. Many people, myself included, can hear advice but have a hard time acting on it. After hearing advice such as "this what you need to do to make it work", do you feel your are capable of acting on good advice and sticking to it? I will be blunt about your original question, do not go out with her. She is pretty and smart, but neither of these make it worth it if you are not capable of solving her issues, which is important because she is not able to either. You already recognize that you do not have the capacity to help her so the answer is clear. Just be friends and have a good time. You haven't slept with her yet or even went on a formal date. She is probably a good person, but is just as likely not the right person for you. If you are trying to credit who you are quoting, type < blockquote class =" ipsBlockquote" data-author=" MrLovingKindness "> so that it shows the name in the quote. To do it this way, you would need to enable html. The traditional way would just quote someone on the bottom right of their post or quote someone and copy/paste the quote into a post which you are editing. I hope that answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Demosthenes, you're a ball buster. But I appreciate it. I agree with all that you say. I most certainly will act on it. I've honestly been looking for ways to see changes manifested in my real life decisions and relationships. I don't want the work I have put in here to go wasted as a bunch of online BS that never gets put into action. I think based on all of your responses, it's obvious that the flags I saw that led me to post about it were in fact red in color....and I think Pablo has a good point. No reason that I cannot tell her about the concerns I have. We can be friends and keep it at that. Hopefully for her sake, the rejection may help her see how profound the problem can be for her if she doesn't address it. So it's the best for both of us. And Matrix - for the record, she's hot, but she never asked me to help with the bed frame. She just mentioned that she was going to her mom's to put together her bed frame for her. It didn't involve me. Had she asked me to drive 2+ hrs to help her do that, you guys would have never heard about this girl (either because my self-knowledge kicked her to the curb, or because I'd be horribly ashamed at having done so, and canceled my subscription so as not to tarnish FDR's good name...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jot Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Demosthenes, you're a ball buster. But I appreciate it. I agree with all that you say. I most certainly will act on it. I've honestly been looking for ways to see changes manifested in my real life decisions and relationships. I don't want the work I have put in here to go wasted as a bunch of online BS that never gets put into action.I think based on all of your responses, it's obvious that the flags I saw that led me to post about it were in fact red in color....and I think Pablo has a good point. No reason that I cannot tell her about the concerns I have. We can be friends and keep it at that. Hopefully for her sake, the rejection may help her see how profound the problem can be for her if she doesn't address it. So it's the best for both of us.And Matrix - for the record, she's hot, but she never asked me to help with the bed frame. She just mentioned that she was going to her mom's to put together her bed frame for her. It didn't involve me. Had she asked me to drive 2+ hrs to help her do that, you guys would have never heard about this girl (either because my self-knowledge kicked her to the curb, or because I'd be horribly ashamed at having done so, and canceled my subscription so as not to tarnish FDR's good name... ) May I ask you why do you feel the need to be in a romantic relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aFireInside Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 With my limited understanding of the situation only one thing would concern me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What would happen if she stops infantilizing her mother ? My guess is that the mother would break down in some sense, and this would be painful to your girlfriend because then she would have to face the fact that she was raised by this "type" of person. Basically by keeping her mother together she doesn't have to face the reality of her past (trauma). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just a theory, but besides that I want to say congratulations on the relationship I hope everything works out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 Thanks Ivan - that is a good point. I don't know if she knows why, but I think calling her "helpless" is not accurate, and even she knows that. There's something else there. It gets creepier the more we talk about it. Ferssitar - I really don't feel the "need," per se. I have been happily single since I got divorced in 2008. In fact, the lessons from Stef that showed me how bright the future is for a single guy is hard to pass up. I wasn't looking for a romantic relationship now - I just really hit it off with this girl, and I'm still a dude, after all! I think I generally do a good job passing on so many other damaged people that manage to wander into my life, male or female. This one just got passed my first line of defense. You guys are my backup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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