All Men Promote Rape

[Wanha]

Hey Choir,

[PREACH:]
I read this article because it was posted on a "friends" facebook page: A Gentlemen’s Guide To Rape Culture - Zaron Bumett III

 

Needless to say, I got upset after reading it and decided to respond to my "friend" ( quotes because I really don't think of her as a friend anymore, not because of this article ... but because I genuinely think she is an awful person in general ) -- See picture below w/ changed names and blurred faces. Also note that I barely stuck my pinky-toe in the FDR swimming pool at this point.

What is your thoughts on the article? What are your thoughts on "rape culture." If you are a guy are you guilty simply because your 23rd chromosome isn't as big as your 46th? Or because you happen to have testicles?

-Chris

 

 

[PatrickC]

Just to be clear I don't wish to be uncompassionate towards your experience here. But I'm really curious, why are you engaging with these ideologues?

[Wanha]

I don't take that as you being uncompassionate -- Good Question.At the time I thought of the girl who posted it as my friend, and after acquiring a little bit of self knowledge ( thank you FDR ) I no longer engage w/ her at all. I was sincerely bothered by the article and tried to bring up the points that bothered me, but was basically shot down for being like "every damned man"I still hang out with the "AFriendOfAFeminist," but this person seems to never take sides on anything and looks at happiness itself as her ideology.I haven't pruned out all of my abusive relationships yet, but I feel like I've come a long way in terms of being honest with myself and others. Frankly I'm a bit afraid of having no "friends" at all If I do that.

[PatrickC]

Well thanks for such an honest response Chris.. So these were past friends that attempted tp railroad you. I'm really sorry to hear that.

[Slavik]

Well from what I see, the whole "rape culture" is a pure fallacy, attempting to have men to self attack for being a man.  I personally always pass on others trying to make me self attack for being me (I self attack on my own just fine, no need to add to it) As far as rape culture (promoting ignoring rape) well where is the evidence of that? The opposite has gone to the point of absurdity, women get to falsely accuse men, and suffer no consequences, the rape of boys and men is largely ignored.  I simply fail to see the evidence of so called "rape culture" 

[Pleiades]

There's so much BS associated with rape culture. Just change what they've written to be about black people and post it. They won't think it's racist, but it's funny. They don't even understand the parallels.

[nathanm]

Some things are so stupid they don't even deserve a response.  The internet gives everyone a public voice, but it doesn't mean we have to listen to every one that passes by. Ignore, block user etc. the tools are there.

[MMX2010]

I have to go out and get food, so I can only blast a quick response. 

 

Later on I'll substantiate these points: (1) There is a rape culture.  (2) It's against men, not women. 

[JamesP]

People who start sentences with throwaway filler like "lol" and "um" don't often strike me as making good arguments or having much beyond ad hominems in their repertoire.

 

"Um" isn't an argument. It's insane that this would even have to be said.

And, dang, can I just say… you are engaging with people who approve of you being labeled as a rapist, and that rather unjustly.

 

That can't be good for you. People who make or approve of false accusations are thoroughly toxic.

[hannahbanana]

Hmm, sorry about the passive aggressive way your questions were treated; I didn't feel like you were attacking or writing off the article at all, you were just trying to clear up points that were a little fuzzy in it. Which, if I were the original poster, I would want to do so that people would be able to understand this apparently great message that I'm trying to put out there for people. It sucks when things don't make sense like that. But I digress.

I can say as a rational person that I'm still not quite sure what exactly rape culture is supposed to be, and I'm a woman who supposedly "inherently understands" it. I read the examples given in the article, but I'm not exactly sure that they are as prevalent as they are made out to be. Sure, maybe they were more prevalent a couple decades ago, but even in my short lifetime I've seen their occurrence go down drastically, at least in my personal experience. The fact that people are hostile towards explaining rape culture towards men seems very passive-aggressive to me (sort of like a "you should know why I'm angry at you" situation, which never helps anything), and it makes me worry about what sort of reception I myself would get if I asked what it was I was supposed to be mad at men about.

I'm always a little confused as to what the goals are of the people that post these sorts of articles, particularly feminist women. While reading the article, I felt a little put off by the sort of patronizing tone the writer had towards women. If I wanted to be strong and independent and free, as A Feminist says she wants to, why would I be approving of an article that seems to say that men need to tiptoe around women lest the vibrations of their footsteps crack their fragile porcelain bodies? It just doesn't really make sense to me.

I could go on about the amount of double-standards and conflicting opinions I see, but I doubt that's necessary here.

[tiepolo]

The idea of a 'rape culture' in the West is an absolute calumny. Most men regard rape as a hideous and unforgivable crime. Feminists are evil to promote the anti-male lies they do, and to lessen and the specific crime and the culpability of specific criminals by making it a generalised thing. The libellous notion of 'rape culture' appeals to feminists, as has been noted, because it allows them to imagine themselves both as victims and objects of desire. In fact they are usually both privileged and undesirable. 

[MrLovingKindness]

Well from what I see, the whole "rape culture" is a pure fallacy, attempting to have men to self attack for being a man.

 

Exploiting protective instincts in order to provoke self attack as well as attacks on each other.

"Rape culture" is a threat narrative.

 

Alison Tieman has a number of videos on this topic. A short, 7.5 minute video of Alison discussing this topic is linked below.

 

She defines threat narrative in the first 2.5 minutes, so if you don't have time for the whole thing just watch the first couple minutes.

 

Enjoy!

 

[tiepolo]

The existence of spurious threat narratives should not be taken to mean that there are no real threats or predatory or malevolent forces in the world, however. Reason and evidence should be deployed to determine whether a genuine threat exists. Just because someone cried wolf doesn't mean there is never a reason to be on one's guard for wolves. 

[MrLovingKindness]

The existence of spurious threat narratives should not be taken to mean that there are no real threats or predatory or malevolent forces in the world, however. Reason and evidence should be deployed to determine whether a genuine threat exists. Just because someone cried wolf doesn't mean there is never a reason to be on one's guard for wolves. 

 

I agree. Do you think the "rape culture" meme fits the definition of a threat narrative?

 

To be clear, the main reason I think "rape culture" is a threat narrative is because it strongly implies, if not outright demands, that women are the only victims of rape and that men are the only perpetrators of it. Secondarily, it blames all men for the actions of a few.

 

If "rape culture" meant that we were concerned about all victims (including men) and all perpetrators (including women), I would be all on board.

[PatrickC]

Exploiting protective instincts in order to provoke self attack as well as attacks on each other.

"Rape culture" is a threat narrative.

 

I thought this was a really interesting way to describe the underlying value (for feminists) of 'rape culture', thanks. Would you agree that this reaction seems to be accentuated in the white knight?

[MrLovingKindness]

I thought this was a really interesting way to describe the underlying value (for feminists) of 'rape culture', thanks. Would you agree that this reaction seems to be accentuated in the white knight?

 

Yes, and I think the main purpose is to activate the white knights. It is a rather explicit call to action.

[Wanha]

@hannahbanana, Thank you for your female persepctive!

@MrLovingKindness Interesting video, thank you for sharing! I wonder if that concept could be applied to the hyper-agency people give to the government as an oppressor, but consider it incompetent at anything.


ON RAPE CULTURE: I personally Didn't dismiss rape-culture instantly because in my head I was thinking:

• Do we have a hyper sexual culture?
• Is it plausible that a culture that elevates sex itself as a virtue may have a higher incidence of rape?

Of course this doesn't match the loose-bullet-pointed-"definition" of the article, or the definition supplied by "feminist.com"


So What should my take away from the conversation above be? -- Just don't surround myself with people like that? Or don't engage if I am? Or don't maintain a "nice" tone if it is unrequited?

[MrLovingKindness]

@MrLovingKindness Interesting video, thank you for sharing! I wonder if that concept could be applied to the hyper-agency people give to the government as an oppressor, but consider it incompetent at anything. 

 

Off the top of my head, I would say it would be hard to apply the concept to government. For comparison, here is an easy example to apply the concept.

 

If a man and woman, both equally intoxicated have sex, then many people would say the intoxicated woman could not consent and therefore the man raped her. By that logic, the man was also unable to give consent, and was therefore raped by the woman. There are also many people (not necessarily the same set of people), and I think U.S. law is set up this way, who believe in this scenario that the man raped the woman but not vice versa. This would be a case of ascribing hyper-agency to the man, and hypo-agency to the woman. This is evident because, in the same scenario, the man is considered responsible for his actions and not the woman.

 

I can’t think of an example (which is not to say one does not exist) where we would ascribe more-or-less agency to the Government vs. “The people”, because I cannot think of an example where both the Government and the people would be in the same situation, if that make sense.

 

WRT Government incompetence, I think there are too many varied opinions and scenarios on this to make a definitive statement.

[J. D. Stembal]

You could really blow her mind simply by saying, "More men are raped than women," but I would first question what you are doing on FB battling with feminists or posing as their friends in the first place. Unplug, and move on, brother!

[500]

And, dang, can I just say… you are engaging with people who approve of you being labeled as a rapist, and that rather unjustly.That can't be good for you. People who make or approve of false accusations are thoroughly toxic.

 

James, I'd like to point out that you've made a false accusation / issued an unjust lable, if the 'people' you are refering to include 'A Feminist'.  'A Feminist' did not call the OP a rapist.  She did not say that she approved of Chris being called a rapist (at least within the screenshot).  To the contrary, she explicitly stated that, "[men] are a part of rape culture because they have been perpetuating it forever.  (Which, Chris, doesn't mean that they promote actual rape... The article doesn't "essentially" state that at all.)"

 

 

There is a lot of general confusion surrounding the parameters of the term 'rape culture'.  Here is a nice, gender-neutral video that outlines rape culture, without using the emotionally charged label.  I think a decent definition of the phrase encompasses "norms in society that increase the prevalence of sexual violence & agression".

 

[tjt]

This is a response to the original post.

 

Doesn't it take a mass of people who interact in some form or another to create a culture? And how many men are actually rapists? 0.01%? Who knows, but it can't be that high. And where is this city that they all hang out at? The rape culture is an illusion, it's quite ridiculous. The stance that "you're contributing to the rape culture because you are a man" is the same b.s. that "you are a sinner because you were born."

 

Yes there are some nasty freaking people out there, but they certainly don't make up what I would call a culture. And everyone else is not in any way part of their "culture" just for being a certain gender.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't read through everything and I could only read two paragraphs of the article before I felt like throwing up. I carry some form of protection if I needed to defend myself, however I hardly think about being raped. The guy who wrote this article, and anyone who promotes it is a moron. If I noticed this guy gently trying to approach me in a "friendly manner", or using his subliminal vibes to "make me feel comfortable" I'd be freaked the eff out. What an idiot.

 

And by the way, most rapes (outside of male prisons) occur between people who already know each other (co workers, friends, classmates)... not usually strangers on the street or in the elevator. Pure propaganda.

[andkon]

Can you imagine an article lecturing all black men on "crime culture" because a disproportionate number of criminals are black men? 

When I cross a parking lot at night and see a white person ahead of me, I do whatever I feel is appropriate to make the white person aware of me so that a) I don’t startle the white person b) the white person has time to make herself feel safe/comfortable and c) if it’s possible, I can approach in a way that’s clearly friendly, in order to let the white person know I’m not a threat. I do this because I’m a black man.

The completely reasonable and understandable fear of black men is your responsibility. You didn’t create it. But you also didn’t build the freeways either. Some of the things you inherit from society are cool and some of them are crime culture.

Since no white person can accurately judge you or your intentions on sight, you are assumed to be like all other black men.

Me neither.

[500]

This is a response to the original post.

 

Doesn't it take a mass of people who interact in some form or another to create a culture? And how many men are actually rapists? 0.01%? Who knows, but it can't be that high. And where is this city that they all hang out at? The rape culture is an illusion, it's quite ridiculous. The stance that "you're contributing to the rape culture because you are a man" is the same b.s. that "you are a sinner because you were born."

 

I'm sorry, I didn't read through everything and I could only read two paragraphs of the article before I felt like throwing up. I carry some form of protection if I needed to defend myself, however I hardly think about being raped. The guy who wrote this article, and anyone who promotes it is a moron. If I noticed this guy gently trying to approach me in a "friendly manner", or using his subliminal vibes to "make me feel comfortable" I'd be freaked the eff out. What an idiot.

 

And by the way, most rapes (outside of male prisons) occur between people who already know each other (co workers, friends, classmates)... not usually strangers on the street or in the elevator. Pure propaganda.

 

Define "mass". It doesn't take a whole lot of people to have an impact on cultural trends.  FDR, for example, started with one person who was able to influence thousands of people. Behavior has network effects that lead to propogation of thought patterns and behaviors.  .01% of 3.5 billion men in the world (or 150+ million men in the US) is still a huge number, which would definitely be enough to be defined as a culture / sub-culture, even if we are only counting rapists (using your estimate).  However, people who discuss rape culture repeatedly state that people who are not rapists perpetuate sexually aggressive or violent behaviors.  Obviously, the problem is bigger than rapists congregating in an imaginary city.  Everyone with sexual power has the potential to propogate sexually aggressive behavior.  This applies to females as well; the article in the OP targeted men, because many, if not most men, are ignorant of some of the ways in which their behaviors are percieved as sexually aggressive. 

 

It's nice that you don't think about getting raped on a regular basis.  Many people are not as lucky.  To call someone an idiot or a moron for trying to bring attention to the struggle that many people face regarding sexual aggression is a logical fallicy (ad hom), and doesn't do anything to improve the conversation.

 

As for the point regarding rape via acquaintances, this was explicitly dealt with in the article, which you would have discovered had you been able to read the entire piece.  The author's point was that since rape is initiated so frequently by accquaintances, many people might have an elevated fear of sexual violence from strangers.  He didn't try to say that this was a rational fear, or explain its statistical legitimacy.  Rather, he as pointing out that it was a fear that existed, and people in a position of power (in this case, the [male] reader) should take steps to allieviate this fear when possible.  Please don't lable statments as propaganda if you aren't going to make the effort to understand the context in which an anecdote or a normative claim is issued.

 

Can you imagine an article lecturing all black men on "crime culture" because a disproportionate number of criminals are black men?

 

Me neither.

 

Actually, criticism of how black men present themselves have been ubuquitous since well before Booker T. Washington's time.  Google searches of 'crime culture' and 'thug culture' each return millions of hits. Not all of those are directed at all black men, but the collection of such writings is quite large.

Edited July 5, 2014 by 500

[J-William]

Oh yeah, cuz you just know those gay men wandering around cities in assless chaps are promoting rape... Unless you mean man on man rape, and then you'd be saying "he asked for it" which is an argument feminists don't like.

 

Can you imagine an article lecturing all black men on "crime culture" because a disproportionate number of criminals are black men?

 

 

I  used to listen to Rush Limbaugh, and he used a term that I feel is more and more appropriate: feminazi. 

 

Anyhow, 

Somehow I don't think racial profiling would be something your average feminazi would approve of. Because even though black men are men, we probably should be sensitive to the racial issues of black men... Gender profiling on the other hand, they are all for that!

[PatrickC]

Define "mass". It doesn't take a whole lot of people to have an impact on cultural trends.  FDR, for example, started with one person who was able to influence thousands of people. 

 

FDR, a culture born out of reason and evidence. Who'd have thought that eh?

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, a great example of 'appeals to sophistication & complexity'. One simply cannot know how others might feel (appeals to emotions as well).

 

Great attempt at concern trolling 500.

[500]

FDR, a culture born out of reason and evidence. Who'd have thought that eh?

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, a great example of 'appeals to sophistication & complexity'. One simply cannot know how others might feel (appeals to emotions as well).

 

Great attempt at concern trolling 500.

 

I'd appreciate some clarification.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'concern trolling'. 

 

With respect to 'appeals to complexity' (the subject is so complicated that not all answers are known, therefore, my guess is just as good as any) - I'm not sure where I engaged in that fallacy. 

 

With respect to 'appeals to emotion' - I'm assuming you are referring to the last paragraph I wrote regarding tjt's quote.  When I'm giving an account of the author's normative claim, that men ought to do 'x' because women might feel 'y', and men are in a position to alleviate 'y'.  If that's the point of contention, the charge of fallacious argument should be issued at the author of the article.  Additionally, even if a particular normative claim doesn't rise to the level of UPB, I think it'd be interesting to discuss the value of trying to alleviate someone else's discomfort, if you can do so at relatively low cost to yourself. 

 

I'm not sure that hailing random strangers in the street is the best way to apply that principle.  In a different case, if you had a surplus of water, and could treat someone for dehydration, you are not morally obligated to give him or her aid (unless you caused the dehydration), but it would still be a nice thing to do.

 

You are right to indicate that we can't a priori know how someone feels.  However, if we do become aware of someone's negative emotional state (whether the othe person volunteered that information or responded when asked), then we are in a position to act on it.  One of the basic steps to combatting aggression (sexual or otherwise) is to maintain the basic courtesy of curiosity.  Sometimes that will lead to great conversations, other times, people will respond aggressively as "A Feminist" did in the OP.  Those incidents are unfortunate, but hopefully we can raise the conversational bar.  I hope that addressed some of your concerns, and I look forward to your feedback. 

[tjt]

7 billion.

 

I admit, I was a little hasty in my response, but I still trust my reaction. Anyone who tells the men in my life to:

 

1. Take responsibility for someone else's actions (in this case, the rapists), and/or

2. Take responsibility for someone else's emotions (in this case, women's fears of being raped)

3. And change their behavior accordingly

 

is manipulative, and therefore untrustworthy and potentially harmful. For any of the men in my life that I care about, I must protect them from such manipulation.

 

The author of this article provides behavioral tips that a man should employ for "alleviating" womens' concerns of being raped. HIs stance is based on the fact that most rapes are committed by men.

 

What about this scenario? Blacks commit a majority of reported robberies in the United States. What if this author was writing to black people, explaining that white people are afraid of being robbed by a black person, and feel threatened and afraid because of this possibility when they encounter a black person on the streets. And what if the author explained that it was black peoples' duty to make the white people feel at ease. And he would go on to suggest black people follow his behavioral tips to achieve this: things like, "don't wear hoodies," "keep your hands out of your pockets when in public," "maintain a slight smile when you encounter a white person on the street," etc. What would your reaction to that be? I would call that racism and the ideas in the article would probably be rejected.

 

The small percentage of men who rape women do not do so  because they are men, they rape women because they are messed up in the head.

 

People must take responsibility for their own actions and their own emotions. If you have a nagging fear of being raped, you probably need to see a therapist or buy a tazer. Do not ask my boyfriend to change his behavior.

[500]

7 billion.

 

I admit, I was a little hasty in my response, but I still trust my reaction. Anyone who tells the men in my life to:

 

1. Take responsibility for someone else's actions (in this case, the rapists), and/or

2. Take responsibility for someone else's emotions (in this case, women's fears of being raped)

3. And change their behavior accordingly

 

is manipulative, and therefore untrustworthy and potentially harmful. For any of the men in my life that I care about, I must protect them from such manipulation.

 

The author of this article provides behavioral tips that a man should employ for "alleviating" womens' concerns of being raped. HIs stance is based on the fact that most rapes are committed by men.

 

What about this scenario? Blacks commit a majority of reported robberies in the United States. What if this author was writing to black people, explaining that white people are afraid of being robbed by a black person, and feel threatened and afraid because of this possibility when they encounter a black person on the streets. And what if the author explained that it was black peoples' duty to make the white people feel at ease. And he would go on to suggest black people follow his behavioral tips to achieve this: things like, "don't wear hoodies," "keep your hands out of your pockets when in public," "maintain a slight smile when you encounter a white person on the street," etc. What would your reaction to that be? I would call that racism and the ideas in the article would probably be rejected.

 

The small percentage of men who rape women do not do so  because they are men, they rape women because they are messed up in the head.

 

People must take responsibility for their own actions and their own emotions. If you have a nagging fear of being raped, you probably need to see a therapist or buy a tazer. Do not ask my boyfriend to change his behavior.

 

Thanks for the correction.  I meant 3.5 billion men.  Edited.

 

Your point about narratives regarding black men is interesting for a number of reasons.  As I mentioned before, these narratives advising black men to avoid appearing 'thuggish' actually do exist.  Some people criticize these narratives for being racist, which they often are / can be, depending on how sweeping the generalizations in any given presentation are.  The author of the rape culture article, Zaron Burnett, offered the most sweeping generalization possible on this topic.  "Man = part of rape culture" is both inaccurate and unjust.  There are people who discuss the issue of sexual aggression with better arguments / presentations (I'd be interested to hear what you think of the vlog brothers video I linked in an earlier post).  After acknowledging that the vast majority of people who are trying to express a grievance aren't philosophically trained, hopefully we can try to elevate the conversation and address each others' concerns. 

 

Sexual aggression is a problem that everyone can help alleviate.  The first steps would include awareness of our own views on sexual relationships, and taking responsibility for our own behaviors.  For all of his clumsiness and generalizations, Burnett does repeatedly call for self awareness, which I think is both a reasonable request and an admirable appeal.  The bulk of his recommendations regarding other people fall down to confronting them on their aggression. 

 

When you say that you want to protect people you care about, and are telling people off for inappropriate behavior, you are operating on the same activism principle that the author is recommending, i.e. people should intervene when they observe unjust or harmful behavior. Holding everyone to standards of non-aggression is consistent with UPB, whether or not you want to take on the additional steps of alleviating other people's fears.

 

I'm curious about your statement "when I care... I must protect".  When you use language tied to obligation (must), where does this sense of obligation come from, and how does it differ from your sense of obligation to strangers?

 

Regarding your last points - people can still experience sexual aggression after seeking therapy and acquiring weapons.  Writing off aggressors as being 'messed up in the head', which they are, doesn't do a lot to change their behavior, whether the source of being 'messed up' is cultural or psycho-neurological.  Prevention being more effective than cure, I instead prefer to engage in discussion that will hopefully raise people's self awareness, which then will have network effects that eventually reduce the acceptance and prevalence of aggression within the culture. 

[MMX2010]

Sexual aggression is a problem that everyone can help alleviate.  The first steps would include awareness of our own views on sexual relationships, and taking responsibility for our own behaviors.  For all of his clumsiness and generalizations, Burnett does repeatedly call for self awareness, which I think is both a reasonable request and an admirable appeal.  The bulk of his recommendations regarding other people fall down to confronting them on their aggression. 

 

 

 

On the one hand, you're saying that everyone can help alleviate the problem of sexual aggression. 

 

But on the other hand, you're not acknowledging that many (if not most) people who complain about (so-called) sexual aggression lack self-awareness. 

[TheAuger]

In her post about "tone policing", A Femanist is seemingly very disrespectful to you, Wanha, by saying that just because "rape culture isn't nice" and that "it doesn't need to be explained nicely [to you]".

 

I would ask her, ''why doesn't rape culture need to be explained 'nicely', if not civilly, just because the topic is about a horrible, horrible subject?''  If asserting a preference for civil discourse is dismissed as "tone policing", then she is obviously just wanting to control the debate and "railroad" you, and she's not worth debating with because no truth can possibly be uncovered in a debate with such a person on this topic.

[500]

 

On the one hand, you're saying that everyone can help alleviate the problem of sexual aggression. 

 

But on the other hand, you're not acknowledging that many (if not most) people who complain about (so-called) sexual aggression lack self-awareness. 

 

Not sure if you missed it, but I did say "After acknowledging that the vast majority of people who are trying to express a grievance aren't philosophically trained, hopefully we can try to elevate the conversation and address each others' concerns."

I include self-awareness as a basic component of philosophical training.

 

I don't see these statements as mutually exclusive.  Those who lack self-awareness can help alleviate the problem of sexual aggression by working to become aware, and taking further steps to identify and halt problematic behaviors that they engage in. 

 

Can you clarify / provide examples of what you mean by "so-called sexual aggression'?

[MMX2010]

Those who lack self-awareness can help alleviate the problem of sexual aggression by working to become aware, and taking further steps to identify and halt problematic behaviors that they engage in. 

 

You haven't demonstrated that this actually works. 

 

Worse, you said, "As I mentioned before, these narratives advising black men to avoid appearing 'thuggish' actually do exist.  Some people criticize these narratives for being racist, which they often are / can be, depending on how sweeping the generalizations in any given presentation are." without offering your own moral opinion about them. 

[500]

 

You haven't demonstrated that this actually works. 

 

Worse, you said, "As I mentioned before, these narratives advising black men to avoid appearing 'thuggish' actually do exist.  Some people criticize these narratives for being racist, which they often are / can be, depending on how sweeping the generalizations in any given presentation are." without offering your own moral opinion about them. 

 

What kind of response are you looking for? Since you aren't exhibiting curiosity / asking questions in your posts directed towards me, it's hard to tell. 

 

I'm feeling pretty frustrated by your last two posts.  After the first one, when it was demonstrated that one of your claims was incorrect, you did not acknowledge that point.  You also ignored the question I posed regarding your phrase 'so-called sexual aggression'.  Your last post contains elements of moral judgement, without providing clarification or warrants.

 

I didn't feel the need to demonstrate a framework that we have examples of in literally every call-in show.  Thousands of people have written or called into the FDR community saying the show has changed their thinking, and they subsequently changed their problematic actions.  Whether the issue is spanking, toxic dispute resolution, or abusive romantic / sexual relationships, people have reduced the amount of aggression in the world through this mechanism. New inputs tend to lead to new outputs.  Are those examples sufficient to demonstrate "that this actually works", or were you looking for something else?

 

About other critical narratives; if someone is trafficking in sweeping generalizations to the point of being racist, then that is unjust and inaccurate (or bad, if you prefer more general moral identifications).  This position is easily induced if you processed my point that Burnett was unjust and inaccurate due to his sweeping generalizations.  I'm not sure why neglecting to point that out specifically, rather than allowing a reader to make a simple induction is 'worse' than a decision not to explicate a phenomenon that we have an abundance of empirical evidence for.  However, I'm going to induce that you think that it is some kind of 'bad'.  I don't accept that premise, but using your own standard, how would you compare that to your neglect at offering your moral opinion of rape or sexual aggression?

 

If your response is somewhere along the lines of, "normal people, or at least those involved in a philosophical community centered on logic and non-aggression, can be assumed to be against things like rape, racism, aggression, ect." then I'd appreciate a retraction of your previous moral labeling.

 

Lastly, your first post stated that you'd demonstrate that rape culture exists and targets men (exclusively, or just more than it does women?). If you had a chance to develop those points, I'd be interested to read them.

[tjt]

Stefan Molyneux speaking at A Voice for Men Conference... he does an excellent job (no surprise!) of addressing the "rape culture." Thought you all might be interested in watching it; I found it very relevant to this thread.

 

[Wanha]

@andkon @tjt I like how you universalized rape culture toward black men -- That would sound racist

 

"I would ask her, ''why doesn't rape culture need to be explained 'nicely', if not civilly, just because the topic is about a horrible, horrible subject?''  If asserting a preference for civil discourse is dismissed as "tone policing", then she is obviously just wanting to control the debate and "railroad" you"

 Wow, I never thought of that, or to ask that. If I generalize this to other horrible things it makes perfect sense. Thank you for the input!

@500 Am I correct in assuming you believe "rape culture" is a useful term and that "if you can do so at relatively low cost to yourself"" generally expresses how you feel about the topic? Also I appreciate your honesty even if you disagree with me or others, and I appreciate you arguing in a courteous manner.