Imagine you had a daughter..

[Three]

One of the most exciting and startling areas of growth for me is coming from Stef's more recent material on Men's rights/Gender Issues. It truly has been an unplugging moment which rivals when I was first breaking free from the propaganda of religion and statism, with all the outrage, fear, exhilaration, and energy that come with being liberated.What makes this material more valuable to me is the fact that it isn't merely abstract, it helps me to see the abuse I've been subjected to closer to home more clearly, which helps me to get in touch with my outrage and thus strengthens my immune system. And it's often the case for me that when I look back at disturbing moments in my life, when I've been abused, I don't feel as angry as I should since I've been trained to not to. For example, my mom used to do things like drive me around in the car while she was running errands and complain about how awful my dad was and then conclude that, "that's just how men are." And this hate speech didn't end with my dad, if a man forgot to give her a receipt, it wasn't an honest mistake, it was yet again another example of male incompetence.My mother would also do quasi-incestuous things to me. She would often try to suggest clothes for me and urge me to grow sideburns because it would be "so handsome!" One day, I was wearing skinny jeans, they weren't like tights, but since I have genetically large calf muscles, they would be really emphasized by the pants. When I stood next to my mom, who was on the floor ironing something, she turned and said to me, "ooo, muscle!" and rubbed my leg. It was so gross, so sickening, humiliating and dehumanizing.What helps me go one step further is none other than UPB, which Stef utilizes in various thought exercises wherein he asks the audience to picture the male characters as females and vice versa in a film. Imagine if a man were to say "kill all women" hashtag, like recent feminists have. The degree to which I feel shocked after simply reversing genders like this is the degree to which I'm susceptible to propaganda. So, what I do now is imagine if I had a daughter, how fucked up it would be if I drove her around in the car and proclaimed how women are incompetant. Imagine if I had a daughter and I suggested she wear her makeup a certain way or style in a way that she would be more sexually attractive to me. Imagine if I had a daughter and I had the nerve to put my fucking hands on her body after she shaved and said, "ooo, smooth!"You know those scenes(I saw this in a 90's commercial once) where a young man is between two old aunts and they try to smooch his cheeks. Imagine your daughter in  between two 60 your old men doing the same things, how appalled at the indecency of that image you would be.I could make the list longer, but I think you get the point. I'm also feeling really angry while writing this. But, if you're a guy and you've been trained to empathize and to feel more sorry for women or girls than to yourself. Maybe applying this exercise and reversing genders in your own memory twill help to break you free from the propaganda and to get in touch with that healthy outrage. I hope it helps. I'm going to go sit with my anger now.As always, Take care. 

[Demosthenes_]

What is causing you to feel so angry? I understand the frustration your are feeling in your life and about your mom, but you said you are going to sit in anger now. Is this a recent realization?

[Three]

Hey, demos.  I'm feeling aggravated after reading your post. Did I not just list plenty of reasons to get angry? I feel strongly after discovering just how harmed I've been by having my mom talk to me the way she did as well as what's been spoon fed to me by society.And it's not just about me, I'm mad at all of the hypocritical bullying mothers and who treat their sons this way and for fathers who, like my own say, "well, that's you're mother. getting mad i like carrying a ball and chain". I mean if I was a black guy who just talked about how angry he was after having people yell "white power" at him for most of his life, after being told that being black was something to be ashamed of and after being adopted by a white family where people in that white family made fun of my lips and nose would it be that much of a mystery why I'd be angry?Would you then say, "i understand your frustration, but what's causing you to feel so angry?"I mean no disrespect and I could be missing something but what the heck, man?

[Demosthenes_]

You have the complete right to be upset, but I'm not so much as asking why are you angry, but rather why are speaking on this topic right now?

 

I believe I understand you are angry because the lies of bias we are propagandizes while growing up. Your mother talked about how incompetent your father was and then generalized it to that is how men are. I see this as your mother also telling you that you are incompetent because you are a man. It didn't stop with just your dad but proceeded with other men in her life. Your mother lacked a distinction between common mistakes and male behavior. It wasn't just a behavioral issue towards men, your mom believed in how men are and not how people are, or specifically how ought to be.

 

You have naturally larger calf muscles and wore pants which would make those muscles distinct. Your mom acts in the persona that it is okay for women to be more touchy of men, including their sons or possibly younger men. However if men had that persona, the bias of men would be that he is a pedophile for touching his daughters legs, if the roles were reversed, or even his son's legs in that manner. Your have been criminalized through your life for being a man while women get the pardon.

 

When I first read "#killallmen " on social media, I sat in silence for a long while. In one area of my head I was terrified, now understanding that if a man were to die, it is not that bad because he is a man. It is something a person thinks they can joke about because men lack value. In another place in my head I felt that if this statement were to be change or reversed to "#killallwomen" or "#killallblacks" that there would be nation wide out roars. But because this only includes men, it isn't a big deal. Deep inside me I felt like I could cry because it made me feel like I lacked value and that my death would not be such a big deal, especially since the #killallmen was a generally agreeable statement, though intended as a joke. If the joke were to be turned around to #killallwomen, it would certainly not be seen as a joke, but because it is a joke about killing men, it is culturally acceptable, and to me is disgusting.

 

I'm not trying to insult you by asking why are you expressing your feelings at all, but rather what stemmed you to make this thread at this time? I believe this thread is valid, but to you, Joel, why are you making it now and not yesterday or tomorrow? Is there a specific event which occurred which hurt you recently or was it just the last twig on the camel's back of cultural accusations/pardoning in our day to day lives which you are willing to tolerate?

[MysterionMuffles]

Both interactions with your mother and your hypothetical daughter creeped me the hell out.

 

The sexual predation of children is so fucked up, but to incestralize it triples, no it quadruples the creep factor. Thank you for sharing your experiences, it has reminded me of a revelation I've discovered in myself lately. My father, I don't think, has ever molested either me or my siblings, but the mere the fact that he is so open with his perversion with women in public has had an influence on me. He often greets a teenage cousin of mine by calling her beautiful and saying nice legs and stuff. Fuckin weirdo! Excuse my excessive french here but he really sickens me to my stomach. I even recall watching old home videos from when he used to record everything on camera. One of them started off with a shot of all the bare legs of my mom and her sisters, and her laughing away how she wanted him to aim the camera higher.

 

For years I've struggled with setting aside my own perversion when I see a beautiful woman in public. I used to be unable to help but stare, but since I learned where this disgusting behaviour came from, it's painful for me to even continue now that I have a counter-inner-father telling me to stop oggling that beautiful girl in the dress by the cash register. I know I can treat women with much more respect and dignity than my father ever has and ever will. The mere fact that I even took care of a little girl (my neice) for a year and a half has also denormalized my perversion because I've begun to just empathize with little girls and women. How hard it must be for them to dress comfortably in hot weather and to think that perverts out there oggle them--or worse, parents let them dress more than just comfortably in public, but to the point of near sluttiness when they haven't even developed yet. Shit, I was at a book store last week and I saw two prepubescent girls with short shorts that might as well have been undersized underwear. Then I saw their mother who wore like a pound of make up on her face. The apple of vanity, it seems, does not fall too far from the tree. I was so shocked by this that I almost had an axiety attack in public, had it not been for running unenexepectedly into a friend of mine. Because of the time I've spent with my neice, I always see the inner child in everybody, not just women, and it helps me empathize with them better, knowing that we were all once innocent children. The fact that I've treated her as an intelligible individual and not just a cute cuddly little girl like most of my family does, I think and I hope is going to help her understand her value beyond her looks. For a two year old, she is much more intelligent than her parents, I think, and the amount of conversation I'm capable of having with her, I hope sets her on a path of higher pursuits beyond feeding the narcissism of her mother who just parades her around as the pride and joy of attractiveness she no longer possesses.

 

I also have my own hypothetical daughter. In the young adult novel I'm writing, I'm writing through the perspective of a 14 year old girl who I treat like my fictional daughter. She has all the fiestiness and wit I would have for my own daughter, but unfortunately living under the roof of an abusive mother, and an immasculated father. Through her POV, it has helped me tremendously in just imagining how much more care and compassion young girls require. I started writing this book with the question of: my high school life sucked, and how much worse would it be if I was a girl? So far I think it has helped me undo the propaganda that teenage girls are evil harlotts. I always knew it wasn't true, but because of all the rejection I've received for them back in the day made me develop a deep seated hatred for them.

 

It wasn't until my adult life, most recently, Ive learned that my fear and hatred for some women has stemmed from the relationship with my mother. Surprise surprise huh? It should've been obvious all along, but it wasn't. I was blinded by all the things I was meant to see as positive from her, the whole hovering over my shoulder stuff  and using me as a pseudo husband to talk about vulnerable stuff in her life--where on the flipside when I came to her with emotional problems, I would just be gaslighted into thinking my concerns didn't matter. And I have just recently, within a year, have had dating experiences where in two women (and one platonic female friend) have all exuded destructive qualities my mother possesses. Especially the stuff you shared in your post about narcissistic mothers. Recognizing the parallels between these women and my mother was scary as hell, but man has it helped me to better shield myself. The art of penis negotiation has gotten strong in me now that I am able to reject the advances of such women, or in some cases, not to cling onto them despite the rejection. 

 

My new mantra: if I notice any similar destructive patterns in the women I date in parallel to my mother...I RUUUUUUUUUUN!!! RUN LIKE THE WIND!!!

 

Anyways thanks again Joel, your posts have been huge eye openers into my own life this morning.

[PatrickC]

Very well said Joel. This was a similar method I used when I first woke up to myself regarding this issue a couple of years back.

 

The degree to which we can have empathy for girls and not for boys, is the same degree in which we lack empathy.

[Three]

Demos, thank you for clarifying. You know usually before I write, it's when thoughts accumulate and come together after thinking about things for a long time. So, I've been mentally journaling this post for at least two weeks. It started with the "Truth about Maleificant" video and the memories of my mother that came to mind while watching it. The morning before writing this I rewatched it and felt an urge to write. Marlon- Right, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Good for you for the progress you've made, man. I wouldn't call it a perversion to want to look at beautiful women who dress in a way which emphasizes the beauty. Not that it's okay to stare, obviously, but the desire for me isn't disgusting and nothing to be ashamed of. I also don't see how your dad can say stop 'oggling' women when he makes videos of his family members legs. And thanks, Patrick. That's a powerful, accurate, and concise way of putting it. 

[MysterionMuffles]

right that's why I said "counter" inner-father--like the ideal type of father I wish I had as a child and the type of father I want to be who is a better influence than my actual one. Thanks once again for opening this topic up!

 

 

I know it's okay to notice beauty in public, and it's hard to quantify when my eyes linger for too long, but needless to say when I find myself desiring them too desparately, I know in that split second that I should look away and go about my business. At least now I do. 

[Three]

I also wanted to say, because this is important, that I don't feel frustration. Frustration at what somebody did to me is to say say they did a bad thing on accident. My parents willed what happened to me and repeatedly even after numerous attempts to get them to stop inflicting harm on me. That's enraging.

[MysterionMuffles]

Yeah this podcast came up the right time in my life. Because despite the anger helping create psychological defenses from other assholes, I am also losing some hope in life. 

[MysterionMuffles]

Until I realize that I am one of the few people who are living on principle. So many times I've been told to abandon my "ideals," because I think people sense that that's how I have more integrity than them. At least in terms of poison people. I still have a long way to go, but in comparison to the many dead people out there, I think they want people like us to believe that our ideals and anger are only going to destroy us. 

 

Now I understand how anger CAN be healthy if directed towards the right source. It does no good to hold onto of course, but it's very helpful while you're fleeing destructive environments. So I am really glad to have heard from you that you're out on your own now, away from your mother, and making a living and something out of yourself. Words cannot describe the tremendous pride I have for you for stepping up to the challenge and do well for yourself despite of your history.

[Three]

Joel,

 

I feel your anger and then some.  I recently became unplugged by listening to the comedian Bill Burr.  He had a whole skit on women and alimony.  There was also a skit on how he is afraid of kids now because 'only men molest and rape.'  He has more skits and opinions running along the same lines. 

 

About a month or two ago, I volunteered to chaperone for a field trip my daughter had (actual flesh and flood, for the record).  We were walking around in a museum and one of her class mates, a little girl, started complaining that her leg was hurting.  She looked to be genuinely in pain.  My initial instinct was to pick her up and put her on my back, a piggy back ride.  But as I started working out the thought, I felt fear and immediately started distancing myself from her.  I told her I would talk to the teacher or another chaperone (I was the only man in the lot) and see if they would wait with her on a bench or something.  I spoke with one of the parents, who I thought I was cool with.  I explained the situation and how I was thinking of giving her a piggy back ride.  Then she said, 'well you can't, you're a man.'  I was thoroughly offended, to say the least.  Fuckin' pissed, really. 

 

Later, when I recounted the story to my sister, she basically echoed what the other parent said.  Only difference was that she pointed out that I could get in trouble and shouldn't do things like that.  Seriously, it's terrible how men are treated.  I hate to disappoint my daughter, and on the same field trip, I kept on encountering that theme: only men molest and rape.  I would play with her, her little friends would see us and they would try to join, but I had to stop playing because I could get in trouble or play into that fucking stupid stigma.  Eventually, I didn't even play with my daughter for the remainder of the field trip, which made me feel awful.  I didn't even know how to go about explaining why I have to keep my distance from every child except her. 

 

-sophos

Hey Sophos, I can certainly relate to what you're saying. There have been countless examples where I've not waved and said hello to a little girl, have not opened a door, have not offered to carry something, or chose nto to be really friendly with women because of fear that I was being a "creep" or "insulting", that I'd be accused of being a "perve" for complimenting a woman ect. I'm sorry to hear about your experience and really sympathize. 

[marko]

Joel! I really like your cover photo!

I've also been going through your posts. They're are amazing! Please keep 'em coming! <3

[Three]

hey, Mark! I'm glad you've got some value out of what I wrote, however minor it might be.  It gives my life more meaning.