Can liars be trusted?

[GOLDENICE]

My 10 year old nephew asked me if he should trust people who lie to him. I said no and began thinking of a nuanced response. He smiled then asked if I ever lied. He got me. Said he had watched a Molyneax video. We discussed Stefan's site last week. He then said should he have said his sister looked fat in her new dress when she inquired. I did not have a satisfying response. Ideas please. Thank you

[RuralRon]

Interesting question, especially as it relates to young children.

 

The truth is we are all pathological liars, no matter how much we may argue to the contrary. Ask anyone these questions:

• Have you ever lied in the past?
• Have you lied recently?
• Are you likely to lie in the future?

If honest, people will answer yes to at least 2 of these, with the 2nd a possible denial depending on how you define recent. But even in that case people may not even be aware of how they might lie if it is subconsciously motivated. I believe we all lie to ourselves about a great many things. Hopefully those here are in the quest of self knowledge to uncover them.

 

As Stefan has said many times in various ways, children are highly sensitive to hypocrisy, a form of lying. So how should they be taught about this given the empirical evidence?

[MMX2010]

If you're looking for an evolutionary biological / scientific approach, these two books are my absolute favorites - (especially the second).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Lie-Evolutionary-Deception-Unconscious/dp/0312310404/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405180473&sr=1-1&keywords=why+we+lie+the+evolutionary+roots+of+deception+and+the+unconscious+mind

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Everyone-Else-Hypocrite-Evolution/dp/0691154392/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405180325&sr=1-1&keywords=why+everyone+else+is+a+hypocrite+evolution+and+the+modular+mind

[cynicist]

You could explain the difference between honesty and being mean

[TheRobin]

Well, there's a difference between omiting things at public gatherings (like, openly stating you're an Anarchist/Atheist, when surrounded by statists and/or are in a gathering for something entirely different) and manipulatively lying in order to gain something. Also, I'd say, it depends on the person you lie to. If you consider them to be a good friend or a close partner, then lying is certainly a huge problem, but not telling your most intimate thoughts to a stranger you see on the bus surely isn't. I'd even say, it'd be kind of intrusive telling a stranger certain things without warning or asking if he/she is okay with it.The question about his sister: First things that came to my mind: IS she fat? If so, why? Shouldn't you be in charge of givign her healthy food? But as Robert suggested, being honest doesn't mean being a dick, and IF the dress looked terrible on her, why wouldn't he say it? I mean, everyone else will see her anyway once she's out in the streets (or wherever), so in a way it'd be cruel not to.

 

Edit: Also I think one imporant thing is, if you're honest about lying in certain situations.

[PatrickC]

You don't owe anyone honesty, but expect those relationships that you do lie too, to take a nose dive whether intended or not.

[Mishelle]

What a great topic, bravo!

Patrick, I was just hearing this on an old call-in, and was a bit surprised actually, it was really a good thing to think about!  I really thought, you are truthful, always, or you are a liar, and this is not just "esthetic principle"  but part of first principles!  And on that note, RTR, as well, you are trying to practice it always, or you are a fake!  hmmm, so much to learn.

 

But, let me at least add something here. "Duping Delight" a term I recently learned and have now been able to easily see!  This is the unconscious "pleasure" at getting away with something.  Watch old videos of Clinton talking about his intern affair and you can see it plainly.  And just recently, I witnessed it on someone telling me a lie!  The question is though, then what do you do?!

[RuralRon]

I'm not sure we're addressing the OP's question directly, though it's all useful input. I myself did the same, and concluded my post with yet another question. tRobin's post was similar to mine and provides useful empirical examples to consider.

 

Yet the central question remains, how do you teach children about the nature of lying? One major factor that occurs to me is the child's age. The younger the child is the simpler must be the explanation. For toddlers "lying is bad, truth is good" seems appropriate, until you think about if the child might interact with a pedophile or predator, in which case lying is good. But that's where I think the parent's role should be primary and not rely on the child to protect themselves through lying. If the parents can't shield their children from such predators teaching them the nuances of lying is the least of their problems.

 

Seems to me as the child grows older they will become better at understanding the context of lying, be it social or to have a positive affect on someone else or for personal gain. It also seems it's important to guide that evolution, and that is the crux of the question, how best to do so.

 

Obviously it's crucially important to understand your children well enough to tailor your instruction about lying to what they're capable of understanding, and part of that will be hearing what the child reflects back to the parents, such as hypocritical behavior they may observe and see that as a growth opportunity for the parents rather than a behavior to repress or train out of the child.

 

The example of a child that reflects the truth about an overweight person is a very good example, and may be a perfect opportunity to teach the child about empathy. The capacity to understand empathy can be nurtured in the very young I expect, but does require some preparation, in the form of exposing the child (or recognizing opportunities when they arise) to feelings of hurt and the remedy or comfort from that hurt demonstrated with virtuous empathy.

 

Great question, worthy of much more feedback and thought.