Vegetarian/Vegan Questions?

[abcqwerty123]

Hey everyone! I recently posted about dieting and working out and how I was looking for what others did because I wanted to begin living a healthier life style as well. I learned a ton from all the replies. I have only been dieting for a short period of time so far and been going on long "fast" walks with my dogs. I will move up in working out but part of my diet consisted of dropping my calorie intake by A LOT and so I am exhausted after these walks, and no my calorie intake isn't too small, it is just I was taking in probably 4,000+ calories a day and that is far too many. Anyways, so far, I am down about 10 pounds, but again, just barely started so I am happy with it so far.

 

However, this post is about being a vegetarian/vegan. I have always had this problem with killing animals, whether on a farm or in the wild. However, like many people I am sure, I have grown up eating meat and even with my severe sadness and dislike for the slaughter of animals, I have ate meat anyways. Well, now in the process of bettering myself and trying to live the lifestyle I want to live, I gave up all meat and dairy aside from fish when I started my diet. I stuck with fish because I didn't want to stop cold turkey, and I wanted to make sure I was getting the vitamins I need before I completely stop.

 

With that being said, I have some questions for all of you:

-How many of you are vegetarians/vegans and what do you think about the lifestyle?

-Do you guys see eating meat as wrong even though morals can't be considered when an animal is involved due to their lack of capability to understand morals?

-Do the cravings for meat every go away because I cannot stop thinking about it?

-Is it even healthy for humans to go vegan/vegetarian because I literally hear two sides to all of it and being as uneducated as I am in the health department, I can't figure out which is correct and incorrect? I hear that grains and dairy are very bad and we shouldn't eat it, and vice versa. I hear that we have to eat meat for a healthy lifestyle. I hear more but can't think of any at the moment, sorry.

-If you are a vegan/vegetarian, do you have any foods/stores you can recommend?

 

My other problem currently is that I noticed a huge spike in my spending when trying to buy food. I unfortunately cannot afford to eat this way but when I google other stores that sell anything vegetarian, the few I have found have been more pricey then Stater Bros, where I currently shop. Is it wrong for me to eat meat simply because I can't afford the substitutes? And keep in mind, this is with the huge calorie drop, so I am essentially buying much less food for much more money.

 

Anyways, I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this please, as well as any other thoughts you may have. Thanks!

[Amelius]

I don't usually aproach non-human animals from a deontological perspective; rather, I do from a consequentialist one: If one can arguably live a healthy lifestyle without bringing unnecessary suffering unto sentient beings, then one ought to.

[abcqwerty123]

I don't usually aproach non-human animals from a deontological perspective; rather, I do from a consequentialist one: If one can arguably live a healthy lifestyle without bringing unnecessary suffering unto sentient beings, then one ought to.

 

Are you a vegan then? If so, may I ask what you think about it and how long you have been one?

[Mango]

Hi there,

I have been eating a vegetarian/vegan diet for around 5 years. My physical health improved after eliminating animal products, including weight loss, clearer skin & improved digestion. 

 

When I saw images of how animals were treated in farms, I felt sad, empathetic, and disturbed. I continued to support it with my actions for years, though, because I figured it was a "necessary evil". I am so relieved to find that I feel healthier on a plant-based diet, and I don't "have to" eat those animals that I generally find to be quite adorable! A vegan diet can be cheap; it costs me at least $150 less on groceries a month. The trick is to use whole, basic foods, instead of pre-packaged meals or meat & dairy substitutes. Besides, the meat & dairy substitutes are typically high in fat and salt, so you'll want to avoid them if your goal is weight loss, anyway. You can eat a healthy vegan diet with anything you can find at an average grocery store: fruit, vegetables, rice, pasta, beans, etc., you don't need to go to a vegetarian-specific store, you just need to be armed with some good recipes. Here are some of my favorite sources for recipes: 

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/recipes/

http://engine2diet.com/recipes/favorites/

http://happyherbivore.com/recipes/

http://www.vegetariantimes.com/recipe/lowfat/

http://potatostrong.com/

 

The flavors that you enjoyed on meat can also be used in vegan recipes. What other food do you like? Some of my favorite foods are banana + frozen fruit smoothies, baked fries, sushi, stir fries, tacos. 

 

There are so many diets out there & conflicting info out there but eating a low-fat vegan diet is the only one I've found where you can eat until you are satiated, and loose weight. The caveat is to keep it low fat and low salt. If you are craving something, you are probably hungry. You will find your cravings are easier to manage when you eat more. I was able to up my calorie intake to 4,000 a day, and loose weight on this lifestyle. My inspiration to try it was "Freelee the Banana Girl" and "Durianriders" who I watched on youtube.I follow Freelee's "Raw Til 4" diet. It might be too much of an extreme change for you at this point, but I will share that I have found it to be successful in achieving weight loss, satisfying to eat until I'm full, inexpensive, simple, and I feel very energized after eating. 

 

Now, if I may, a word of caution from my own experience...Food can be a great distraction. I lost 40 lbs by focusing on diet. It was only able to maintain it for about a month and then I gained it all back (and then some). I was focused on surface changes instead the WHY: what I was using food to anesthetize myself from, what pain & anger I was suppressing by overeating, what benefits there were to being overweight, why I needed intimacy with food, what bigger issues I needed to distract myself from, etc.One of the secondary gains I perceived from being overweight was I hoped to communicate I was in pain. I actually started to panic when I lost weight. Part of me was screaming, "but everyone will think I'm OK - I'm not OK!". It was impossible to maintain weight loss without validating the bigger issues that cause the overweight-ness in the first place. So, while I love this diet, I also have to say being in therapy, journalling, reading (I have found Alice Miller particularly helpful), watching Stefan's videos, and introspection have contributed more to my ability to reach a healthy weight long-term. I hope this helps. Feel free to ask me for any support if you need it. 

[Tyler Durden]

Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions.

 

-How many of you are vegetarians/vegans and what do you think about the lifestyle?

 

I became a vegetarian 21 years ago and I've been a vegan for quite some time now.

 

I think the lifestyle is great for 3 main reasons:

1. Animals don't suffer and get killed.

2. It's better for the environment. The production of animal products is extremely inefficient compared to plant products and it creates more waste.

3. It's better for your health. (see my answer to the health question for details)

 

-Do you guys see eating meat as wrong even though morals can't be considered when an animal is involved due to their lack of capability to understand morals?

 

Yes, I see eating meat as wrong and I see eating fish as equally wrong.

 

I understand the reasoning behind your statement but I don't agree that morality isn't involved. I would argue that being moral means that you don't cause unnecessary suffering and death. These animals have never hurt anyone so killing them is a completely unprovoked act of aggression which I consider highly immoral. 

-Do the cravings for meat every go away because I cannot stop thinking about it?

 

Yes. Most people that I've convinced to stop eating meat actually became quite disgusted with it in a matter of months.

 

There are actually 2 things you can do to make them go away as fast as possible:

1. Inform yourself about the meat industry. Read for example Jonathan Safran Foer's book "Eating animals", the more you know about the meat industry the less appealing their products become.

2. Learn to cook well without meat. Most people who give up meat are so accustomed to meat-centered dishes that they really don't know how to cook a great meal without it. As a result you end up comparing lousy vegetarian dishes to the most tasty meat dishes and that doesn't work. Actively learning a new of cooking helps because your meals will taste better and because you'll have something to focus on. I highly recommend you try out some of the recipes suggested by Mango or buy one of the easy everyday cookbooks recommended on this site and start trying out new recipes: http://www.vegan.com/cookbooks/

 

-Is it even healthy for humans to go vegan/vegetarian because I literally hear two sides to all of it and being as uneducated as I am in the health department, I can't figure out which is correct and incorrect? I hear that grains and dairy are very bad and we shouldn't eat it, and vice versa. I hear that we have to eat meat for a healthy lifestyle. I hear more but can't think of any at the moment, sorry.

 

You're certainly not the first to experience this. The problem with food is that it's a large and complex topic and there's a whole lot of money to be made from misinformation. So there are many conflicting stories going around, often very well presented, but also often incorrect.

 

I've done a decent amount of research on the topic and I've come to the conclusion that whole food plant-based diets are definitely among the healthiest diets possible, if not the healthiest. It basically means that you focus on plant-based food and you make sure that most of your food comes from the ground instead of from a factory. If you google "whole food plant-based diet" you'll find lots of information.

 

Eating like that decreases your chance at obesity, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes, and if you keep it up long enough it will also increase your life expectancy. (sources: http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677895 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.full )

 

The diet provides more than enough of almost every nutrient but there are a few that need special attention. This is what I advise to people who adopt a vegan diet:

-Take a vitamin B12 supplement (very important)

-Mix 1 tablespoon of ground flax seed through one of your meals once a day (this is for Omega-3, there are other sources as well but I've found this to be the easiest way)

-Drink 1 glass of soy milk with added calcium or use any other product with added calcium once a day (there are also vegetables like kale that contain lots of calcium, but this habit is easier to implement)

-Take a vitamin D supplement on days that you don't get into the sun (this is actually not a vegan thing, everyone should do this)

 

If you're interested you can find very extensive information on many more nutrients, that are unlikely to ever become a problem, here: http://www.veganhealth.org/

 

If you eat a whole food plant-based diet and follow these recommendations you'll be eating healthier than 9 out of 10 people.

 

-If you are a vegan/vegetarian, do you have any foods/stores you can recommend?

 

My other problem currently is that I noticed a huge spike in my spending when trying to buy food. I unfortunately cannot afford to eat this way but when I google other stores that sell anything vegetarian, the few I have found have been more pricey then Stater Bros, where I currently shop. Is it wrong for me to eat meat simply because I can't afford the substitutes? And keep in mind, this is with the huge calorie drop, so I am essentially buying much less food for much more money.

 

As Mango said before me, the problem is most likely that you're looking for the wrong products. Everything you need can be found in an average supermarket and if you buy whole, basic foods it should be quite affordable.

[NGardner]

Have you seen this 

 

[Gwen]

Hey,

 

I would highly reccomend checking out the Weston A Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org/ 

 

I'm a big believer in eating lots of animal fat and animal protein and staying away from modern Big Agriculture products including feedlot animals, highly processed food and food that is GM and/or sprayed with chemicals. 

 

We eat a lot of meat but it's almost exclusively grassfed and or free range. Animals do not have great lives in feedlots but grassfed and free range animals from farms that care about animal welfare have it pretty good until they get slaughtered.  Also, if you eat animals that grow up eating what nature intended them to eat, the meat and fat is very nutritious.  Look up Joel Salatin on YouTube, he runs a really awesome farm.

 

It's also a good idea to read some info. on the WAPF website about soy - I'd stay away from that crap unless it's used as a fermented condiment like the Japanese use it.  And for sure if you're going to have kids or have them, do not give them soy formula - it totally messes up hormones. 

[abcqwerty123]

Hi there,

I have been eating a vegetarian/vegan diet for around 5 years. My physical health improved after eliminating animal products, including weight loss, clearer skin & improved digestion. 

 

When I saw images of how animals were treated in farms, I felt sad, empathetic, and disturbed. I continued to support it with my actions for years, though, because I figured it was a "necessary evil". I am so relieved to find that I feel healthier on a plant-based diet, and I don't "have to" eat those animals that I generally find to be quite adorable! A vegan diet can be cheap; it costs me at least $150 less on groceries a month. The trick is to use whole, basic foods, instead of pre-packaged meals or meat & dairy substitutes. Besides, the meat & dairy substitutes are typically high in fat and salt, so you'll want to avoid them if your goal is weight loss, anyway. You can eat a healthy vegan diet with anything you can find at an average grocery store: fruit, vegetables, rice, pasta, beans, etc., you don't need to go to a vegetarian-specific store, you just need to be armed with some good recipes. Here are some of my favorite sources for recipes: 

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/recipes/

http://engine2diet.com/recipes/favorites/

http://happyherbivore.com/recipes/

http://www.vegetariantimes.com/recipe/lowfat/

http://potatostrong.com/

 

The flavors that you enjoyed on meat can also be used in vegan recipes. What other food do you like? Some of my favorite foods are banana + frozen fruit smoothies, baked fries, sushi, stir fries, tacos. 

 

There are so many diets out there & conflicting info out there but eating a low-fat vegan diet is the only one I've found where you can eat until you are satiated, and loose weight. The caveat is to keep it low fat and low salt. If you are craving something, you are probably hungry. You will find your cravings are easier to manage when you eat more. I was able to up my calorie intake to 4,000 a day, and loose weight on this lifestyle. My inspiration to try it was "Freelee the Banana Girl" and "Durianriders" who I watched on youtube.I follow Freelee's "Raw Til 4" diet. It might be too much of an extreme change for you at this point, but I will share that I have found it to be successful in achieving weight loss, satisfying to eat until I'm full, inexpensive, simple, and I feel very energized after eating. 

 

Now, if I may, a word of caution from my own experience...Food can be a great distraction. I lost 40 lbs by focusing on diet. It was only able to maintain it for about a month and then I gained it all back (and then some). I was focused on surface changes instead the WHY: what I was using food to anesthetize myself from, what pain & anger I was suppressing by overeating, what benefits there were to being overweight, why I needed intimacy with food, what bigger issues I needed to distract myself from, etc.One of the secondary gains I perceived from being overweight was I hoped to communicate I was in pain. I actually started to panic when I lost weight. Part of me was screaming, "but everyone will think I'm OK - I'm not OK!". It was impossible to maintain weight loss without validating the bigger issues that cause the overweight-ness in the first place. So, while I love this diet, I also have to say being in therapy, journalling, reading (I have found Alice Miller particularly helpful), watching Stefan's videos, and introspection have contributed more to my ability to reach a healthy weight long-term. I hope this helps. Feel free to ask me for any support if you need it. 

 

Thanks for all the great info man. I'll be checking out those recipes in a little bit. The reason I became overweight in the first place was because 1, I didn't have parents to teach me how to eat properly and 2, I was severely depressed and ate what I could as well as was basically locked away so I couldn't do anything. After that though, I gained weight faster and faster simply because I enjoyed eating. I didn't use eating as a distraction really, but I ate while I did other distractions. Like, I would watch tv and pick up some chipotle to eat while I watched. Or I would go to the move and grab snacks on the way there. Stuff like that, but I did it soooo much that I gained weight very fast.

 

I am currently working on improving my life in every aspect. I am starting up my own companies (kind of), beginning to learn and act upon eating healthier as well as eating vegan, and fixing myself mentally. I would like to speak with a therapist someday, but I currently cannot afford it. However, I realllllyyy am improving soo much mentally. I am because every time I do something, I think about what it. Every time I think about something or feel an emotion towards something, I think about it. I figure out why and what is causing everything I think, feel and do, and then I try to fix anything I see wrong with it. I know I am improving because I used to be extremely angry all of the time, always arguing and fighting with everyone, but I not only don't argue and fight with people as much anymore, but I really don't feel angry at them anymore. The only time I get angry is when they contradict themselves about something I feel to be important, such as spanking children, and an argument will ensue. I try to walk away at that point because I know that arguing and getting angry won't solve anything, and I have been getting MUCH better at this as well. Just about 6 months ago, my sister and I were arguing every single day about anarchy, peaceful solutions to life and all that, and now we don't argue almost at all.

 

Anyways, thanks for all the info man and it's great to see that you have enjoyed your lifestyle change! =)

 

 

Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions.

 

 

I became a vegetarian 21 years ago and I've been a vegan for quite some time now.

 

I think the lifestyle is great for 3 main reasons:

1. Animals don't suffer and get killed.

2. It's better for the environment. The production of animal products is extremely inefficient compared to plant products and it creates more waste.

3. It's better for your health. (see my answer to the health question for details)

 

 

Yes, I see eating meat as wrong and I see eating fish as equally wrong.

 

I understand the reasoning behind your statement but I don't agree that morality isn't involved. I would argue that being moral means that you don't cause unnecessary suffering and death. These animals have never hurt anyone so killing them is a completely unprovoked act of aggression which I consider highly immoral. 

 

Yes. Most people that I've convinced to stop eating meat actually became quite disgusted with it in a matter of months.

 

There are actually 2 things you can do to make them go away as fast as possible:

1. Inform yourself about the meat industry. Read for example Jonathan Safran Foer's book "Eating animals", the more you know about the meat industry the less appealing their products become.

2. Learn to cook well without meat. Most people who give up meat are so accustomed to meat-centered dishes that they really don't know how to cook a great meal without it. As a result you end up comparing lousy vegetarian dishes to the most tasty meat dishes and that doesn't work. Actively learning a new of cooking helps because your meals will taste better and because you'll have something to focus on. I highly recommend you try out some of the recipes suggested by Mango or buy one of the easy everyday cookbooks recommended on this site and start trying out new recipes: http://www.vegan.com/cookbooks/

 

 

You're certainly not the first to experience this. The problem with food is that it's a large and complex topic and there's a whole lot of money to be made from misinformation. So there are many conflicting stories going around, often very well presented, but also often incorrect.

 

I've done a decent amount of research on the topic and I've come to the conclusion that whole food plant-based diets are definitely among the healthiest diets possible, if not the healthiest. It basically means that you focus on plant-based food and you make sure that most of your food comes from the ground instead of from a factory. If you google "whole food plant-based diet" you'll find lots of information.

 

Eating like that decreases your chance at obesity, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes, and if you keep it up long enough it will also increase your life expectancy. (sources: http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677895 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.full )

 

The diet provides more than enough of almost every nutrient but there are a few that need special attention. This is what I advise to people who adopt a vegan diet:

-Take a vitamin B12 supplement (very important)

-Mix 1 tablespoon of ground flax seed through one of your meals once a day (this is for Omega-3, there are other sources as well but I've found this to be the easiest way)

-Drink 1 glass of soy milk with added calcium or use any other product with added calcium once a day (there are also vegetables like kale that contain lots of calcium, but this habit is easier to implement)

-Take a vitamin D supplement on days that you don't get into the sun (this is actually not a vegan thing, everyone should do this)

 

If you're interested you can find very extensive information on many more nutrients, that are unlikely to ever become a problem, here: http://www.veganhealth.org/

 

If you eat a whole food plant-based diet and follow these recommendations you'll be eating healthier than 9 out of 10 people.

 

 

As Mango said before me, the problem is most likely that you're looking for the wrong products. Everything you need can be found in an average supermarket and if you buy whole, basic foods it should be quite affordable.

 

Dang, 21 years, excellent job man! I agree with you in that I see eating meat and fish as wrong. The only reason I currently have fish in my diet is because I didn't feel educated enough to go completely vegetarian yet, so I didn't wanna screw up and harm myself, however, I haven't eaten fish the last couple days and only have a small amount left that I plan to eat within the next couple days and then remove fish from my diet as well.

 

See, I have always separated meat and the animal. I have always have problems with killing animals but when I ate, I looked at it as just food and not the animal. I have not been able to eat animals/fish that you can still see the animal, for instance, lobsters with the shell still on. It always freaked me out and even though I powered through it eventually and began doing it, I still felt that same disgust. I know that this isn't right in anyways, which is why I am trying to fix it and just sad I hadn't fixed it yet, but that was my thinking all along while eating meat/fish.

 

I actually currently eat ground flax seed almost every single day along with almond milk which seems to have a good amount of calcium. I usually have a bowl of some sugarless oat cereal, chop up a banana to throw in, put a nice layer of ground flax seed on top and some almond milk. That is my breakfast almost every morning. I do however need to get vitamin B12 supplements and vitamin D because no matter how much I want to go out on walks with my dogs and to play tennis and stuff, I find myself too busy often to get a chance every single day. Someone also recommended I take fish oil, but not to informed on that?

 

Yah, I need to find some good recipe's on vegan foods for sure. I want to become vegan, not vegetarian, but I found it hard to find foods that completely removed dairy/eggs. Anyways, I am going to keep working on it and I will keep you updated. So far, I have been doing great, feeling great (aside from cravings which seem to be going away slowly), and working on improving more and more! With you and everyone else's help and information, this life transition has been much smoother then I expected and that is really nice. =)

 

 

Have you seen this 

 

 

I have not seen it, but that is just another person saying that being vegetarian/vegan isn't healthy. Like I said in my original post, there is so much out there contradicting all the other stuff that it makes it hard to understand what is true and not. The only logical answer I can come up with is that every time people say that eating vegan isn't healthy because you need "X" nutrients that plants don't supply, I then see vitamins and other sources that claim to have those nutrients. So I am just not seeing what that side is saying. To me, in seems like they are ignoring the fact that these nutrients can be found in other areas as well, but maybe I am completely wrong. However, until I am proven wrong and it explained to me, I cannot accept that eating other animals is necessary.

Hey,

 

I would highly reccomend checking out the Weston A Price Foundation http://www.westonaprice.org/ 

 

I'm a big believer in eating lots of animal fat and animal protein and staying away from modern Big Agriculture products including feedlot animals, highly processed food and food that is GM and/or sprayed with chemicals. 

 

We eat a lot of meat but it's almost exclusively grassfed and or free range. Animals do not have great lives in feedlots but grassfed and free range animals from farms that care about animal welfare have it pretty good until they get slaughtered.  Also, if you eat animals that grow up eating what nature intended them to eat, the meat and fat is very nutritious.  Look up Joel Salatin on YouTube, he runs a really awesome farm.

 

It's also a good idea to read some info. on the WAPF website about soy - I'd stay away from that crap unless it's used as a fermented condiment like the Japanese use it.  And for sure if you're going to have kids or have them, do not give them soy formula - it totally messes up hormones. 

 

I am sorry but the problem isn't only the animal having a good life, it is also the problem of slaughtering them. I mean, are you okay with killing humans at the age of 50 as long as they had a good life? I understand that there are nutrients in animals, but every time I hear about one of these nutrients, I also hear about the solution, whether it be from a plant or vitamin.

 

I have heard a little bit about soy and how bad it is. I will need to do more research on soy, but I currently am not eating/drinking too much soy product. I just bought veggie burger patties last night and made one, and unfortunately it has soy, dairy and eggs in it, all 3 I wanted to avoid, but it was a very small patty and it was weighted down with avocado, onions and spinach.

 

As for the entire animal thing... The people in support of vegan diet have yet to say something that has been contradictory, while the people in support of animals have yet to say something that hasn't, so I must go with the side that isn't contradicting itself.

[AustinJames]

Yes, I see eating meat as wrong and I see eating fish as equally wrong.

 

I understand the reasoning behind your statement but I don't agree that morality isn't involved. I would argue that being moral means that you don't cause unnecessary suffering and death. These animals have never hurt anyone so killing them is a completely unprovoked act of aggression which I consider highly immoral.

 

I'm curious as to where this leads for you.  Are insects regarded similarly?  I go out of my way to avoid killing anything, but it seems there must be some degree in the matter.  On the moral spectrum, how does killing an animal for food rate compared to killing a human in cold blood?  Almost as bad? Just as bad?  I've considered going vegetarian for a long time, because of the inhumanity in the industry.  Maybe I just need to hear the right arguments for it.

[abcqwerty123]

I'm curious as to where this leads for you.  Are insects regarded similarly?  I go out of my way to avoid killing anything, but it seems there must be some degree in the matter.  On the moral spectrum, how does killing an animal for food rate compared to killing a human in cold blood?  Almost as bad? Just as bad?  I've considered going vegetarian for a long time, because of the inhumanity in the industry.  Maybe I just need to hear the right arguments for it.

 

I think the difference with insects and animals/people is the knowing of doing so. What I mean is, we know when we eat meat, that an animal was killed for it. We know when we shoot a gun and someones brains are splattered over the wall, we killed someone. But for most bugs that we kill, I don't think that we know we killed them. We kill them when we are walking around, sleeping, etc... Unfortunately I don't think we can prevent killing things entirely, but I believe we can do our best to limit it as much as possible. Now, I know that there is the argument of like... When you see a spider on your wall and you squash it, or you get ants and/or gnats investing your house, people will kill them. I don't really know how to answer that. I want to use something like property rights, stating that it is my property and I want to be able to keep my property bug free, but bugs cannot comprehend property rights so it cannot apply to them. So yah, don't really have an answer for that.

 

As for animals and humans... I believe that knowingly killing either is the same as the other, except in self defense.

 

Lastly, as for you going vegetarian/vegan, here are my thoughts. I think killing anything is wrong and like I have heard Stefan say, if children were raised properly/kindly, then even though morality cannot apply to animals, they still wouldn't kill or harm them. So, in order to raise a child that way, you cannot be feeding them dead animals because there would be a contradiction and if you eat meat as the parent, then you are being a hypocrite in raising them that way... Sorry, probably extremely confusing because I was having trouble wording that. As for the health and how I feel... I have been not eating meat for about a week now, and I came from eating plenty of meat every single day. I would have ground beef in most things I ate. I would eat steaks almost every other night. I would eat fastfood between 1-3 times on average and everything I ate had meat in it. I mean, I age meat wayyyy too much, and instantly stopped, and so far for the first week, I really feel great. I have had some cravings but nothing like what I expected to have, and find a couple of foods I enjoyed actually helped remove those cravings A LOT! Physically though, I feel insane. For instance, I have trouble doing a situp. If I lay flat on my back, hands at my side, without using any swinging force at all, I would struggle to do a situp, all the way up. Last night, randomly, I was laying on the ground wrestling with my dogs and I sat up when I was done. I sat there for a second thinking about it, and then layed back down and sat up again. I did a few situps just like I used to, the only difference was, it was so insanely easy. I don't know what happened because I haven't been working out or strengthening my stomach. It just was soooo easy to do situps. Today, I went for a 20 minute walk in 104 degree temperature, came back a little sweaty but I wasn't tired at all. Just a week ago on the day I started eating this way, I did the exact same walk in 90 degree temperature, came home and almost passed out, was super light headed and my entire body felt so physically exhausted that I showered and fell asleep in the middle of the day. So from a health standpoint, I can vouch for it that I may not have ever felt this good, even when I was skinny. Anyways, let me know what you think about it. =P

[Gwen]

 

I am sorry but the problem isn't only the animal having a good life, it is also the problem of slaughtering them. I mean, are you okay with killing humans at the age of 50 as long as they had a good life? I understand that there are nutrients in animals, but every time I hear about one of these nutrients, I also hear about the solution, whether it be from a plant or vitamin.

 

 

I'm a big fan of humans, so I'm not ok with the slaughter of them.  With other animals, I feel much better knowing the cow I'm eating has lived in a nice environment and has been treated well. 

 

There has been research done on plants that indicate they respond to pain etc.  If this is true, are you still ok with slaughtering plants?  In order to live, you need to kill things and consume them.  If it makes you feel any better, you are a host to trillions of bacteria that are feeding off you....so with every life you kill and consume, you're actually feeding trillions more and making their existence possible. 

[abcqwerty123]

I'm a big fan of humans, so I'm not ok with the slaughter of them.  With other animals, I feel much better knowing the cow I'm eating has lived in a nice environment and has been treated well. 

 

There has been research done on plants that indicate they respond to pain etc.  If this is true, are you still ok with slaughtering plants?  In order to live, you need to kill things and consume them.  If it makes you feel any better, you are a host to trillions of bacteria that are feeding off you....so with every life you kill and consume, you're actually feeding trillions more and making their existence possible. 

 

I am not okay with killing anyone/anything that is living. With that being said, the object is to live in a way where you kill as little as possible and humans cannot live without eating plants. We can however live without eating animals.

[SueBee]

My advice for cutting down your food bill is to cut out the meat substitutes. They are "food-like products" and loaded with sodium, among other things! Feel free to message me for food/recipe ideas. I am also interested to hear about any challenges with choosing to avoid dairy.

[abcqwerty123]

My advice for cutting down your food bill is to cut out the meat substitutes. They are "food-like products" and loaded with sodium, among other things! Feel free to message me for food/recipe ideas. I am also interested to hear about any challenges with choosing to avoid dairy.

 

I would absolutely love some good recipes you recommend! The few meat substitutes I got was a mistake. I have only tried the veggie burger patty and it tastes pretty good, but it does have a bit of sodium in it as well as soy, dairy and egg, all which I want to remove from my diet. I just wasn't educated on them until after I bought them unfortunately and cannot afford to go for another store run for a little so I am going to eat them and then stop after they are gone. But ya, any recipes you can offer that you have tried and enjoy, I would absolutely love. Also, anything that can help cut down my bill will be very enjoyable as well. The other thing is, my bill was pretty high but I know its a lot because I bought many different things to try, some of which I don't care for and some of which I won't buy again like the fake meat. Lastly, if you know of any recipes where I can add my own hot sauce, that would be awesome! I really love hot sauces. One reason is because there isn't much in them so they are a good topping sauce (i pretty much like all topping sauces; ketchup, mustard, bbq, a1, all that), and because there are so many different kinds that all taste very different, and lastly because I enjoy spicy flavors. Anyways, can't wait to hear back from you! =) and thank you in advance!

[NGardner]

Just because veganism is healthier than the standard american diet of high fat high carb all trash doesnt mean it is healthier than a well constructed diet that contains animal products. This is essentially saying well I'm not as bad as Hitler, therefore I am good.

[abcqwerty123]

Just because veganism is healthier than the standard american diet of high fat high carb all trash doesnt mean it is healthier than a well constructed diet that contains animal products. This is essentially saying well I'm not as bad as Hitler, therefore I am good.

 

I didn't say it was or wasn't healthier?

[Brentb]

I don't believe that it is immoral to eat animals, so I'd say to try vegetarianism out if you're interested and pay attentions to how the diet change affects your body, mood, energy levels, etc.

 

Humans are not all the same biologically. We have not all evolved in the same ways. For example someone from an inuit heritage who has generations of ancestors thriving on whale blubber will likely have a digestive tract that handles animal fats better than vegetation.

 

I tried out being a vegetarian for a few months. It was great for the first 6 weeks. I had more energy, and my body felt somehow cleaner. After about three months, my energy level had dropped and I started having really strong cravings for chicken, so I listened to my body and started eating meat again.

 

I still go vegetarian every now and then for a few weeks. I've found water fasting for a week or two to be beneficial, and I'll usually go vegan for a week before and after a fast.

[Tyler Durden]

Someone also recommended I take fish oil, but not to informed on that?

 

Okay, I can clarify that for you:

 

There are 3 types of omega-3 fatty acids that are relevant to us. These are ALA, EPA, and DHA.

 

The omega-3 that you find in ground flax seeds and other plant sources is ALA. Your body can convert this to EPA and DHA itself, so under normal circumstances you don't have to worry about it.

 

However, there are two factors that should be taken into account. The first one is that not everyone's body is equally efficient at converting ALA and you don't know how efficient your body is unless you get it tested somewhere. The second one is that the same enzymes that are used for converting omega-3 are also used for converting omega-6. So if you have a lot of omega-6 in your diet (which many people have) more of the enzymes will be used for that and your omega-3 conversion will become less efficient.

 

One way to deal with that is to make sure your omega-3 intake is sufficient (one tablespoon of ground flax seeds a day) and your omega-6 intake is relatively low. You can keep omega-6 low by avoiding overly processed foods and by only using oil that's low on omega-6, such as olive oil.

 

The other way is to take a supplement for EPA and DHA, in that way you don't have to rely on your body's conversion because you just bypass the whole process. This is essentially what people who eat fish or take fish oil do since the omega-3 in fish is mostly EPA and DHA. What many people don't know however, is that fish get their omega-3 from algae and you can also get it directly from them. So there are vegan supplements for EPA and DHA that function exactly the same as fish oil.

 

Whether or not these supplements are necessary is another question. Some experts recommend them and some experts don't. I personally don't take them because I think the ground flax seeds combined with my low intake of omega-6 is enough. But if you're unsure I recommend you check out these 2 articles: https://www.mja.com.au/open/2012/1/2/omega-3-polyunsaturated-fatty-acids-and-vegetarian-diets and http://veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

 

I'm curious as to where this leads for you.  Are insects regarded similarly?  I go out of my way to avoid killing anything, but it seems there must be some degree in the matter.  On the moral spectrum, how does killing an animal for food rate compared to killing a human in cold blood?  Almost as bad? Just as bad?  I've considered going vegetarian for a long time, because of the inhumanity in the industry.  Maybe I just need to hear the right arguments for it.

 

Good questions.

 

I don't know where killing insects rates on the moral spectrum but I treat them the same way. I don't kill them intentionally and if I find a fly stuck to a window inside my home I catch it with a glass and set it free. There are of course other insects that are more hostile such as mosquitoes, they don't really target me so I just let them be, but I can understand that other people who get bitten a lot even when they use repellents feel the need to kill them.

 

With regards to killing animals for food I think it's important to realize that the meat industry is essentially not a food producing industry. This is because animals need a lot of food themselves, and most of that is simply used to maintain their body, only a small portion of it is used to grow. So for example if you have 5 pounds of plant based food and you feed it to a pig, the pig will turn that into 4 pounds of shit and 1 pound of meat.

 

In the past animals were hunted or only ate leftovers and people had little choice but now people are actually growing tons of food just to feed it to animals so they can turn it into less food. Of all the land used for food production worldwide about 19% is used to grow plant food for us and 81% is used either to grow plant food for animals or as grazing ground for animals. But plant products supply about 83% of all our energy whereas animal products only supply 17%. So killing animals for food doesn't make logical sense because we would actually have more food if we didn't eat animals.

 

Apart from land the production of meat and other animal products also requires more water and more fuel and it creates more waste. And since it's not necessary for your health either, the only reason for eating meat that people have left is that they like the taste of meat.

 

So to get back to the moral question. I don't know if killing an animal is as bad as killing a human. But I'd say that killing an animal simply because you like the way his flesh tastes is very bad.

 

I think it's really good that you're thinking about this and I hope that you'll go vegetarian. Maybe try it out for a month, see how it goes.

[FreedomPhilosophy]

With that being said, I have some questions for all of you:

-How many of you are vegetarians/vegans and what do you think about the lifestyle?

 

Going vegan 23 years ago is one of the best things I ever did, eating low fat high raw vegan since 1996 even better..

 

-Do you guys see eating meat as wrong even though morals can't be considered when an animal is involved due to their lack of capability to understand morals?Eating meat is not immoral, meat is dead matter, it is how it is acquired that raises moral concerns. Consuming road kill or naturally deceased animals would be technically compatible with vegan ethics.

 

I reject the contractualist account of morality based on the argument from marginal cases. (I reject Stephans attempts to dodge the argument from marginal cases as well.) 

-Do the cravings for meat every go away because I cannot stop thinking about it?

 

All cravings should go eventually, I found cheese and bread the hardest things to quit. With the exception of breast milk, all human tastes are acquired by habit. 

-Is it even healthy for humans to go vegan/vegetarian because I literally hear two sides to all of it and being as uneducated as I am in the health department, I can't figure out which is correct and incorrect?A considerable variety of evidence indicates that animal products are unhealthy for humans. The devil is in the detail though, a vegan diet must be correctly planned for optimal long term wellness.

-If you are a vegan/vegetarian, do you have any foods/stores you can recommend?

The produce isle.

 

If you wish to economise stick to some staples like pulses and rice or potatoes plus some fresh veggies and check out http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/vegan100/If you have a head for science visit http://plantpositive.com/.

I'm curious as to where this leads for you.  Are insects regarded similarly? 

 

Although I am vegan I don't have a moral issue with killing insects. Insects are not self aware, they are not like "people" - in contrast all mammals are self aware and express personality to some degree or other.

 

That said, if anyone had a habit of intentionally killing insects (other than that they were hungry without alternatives), I would suspect they had a mental problem.

[LovePrevails]

I have been a vegetarian for 6 or 7 years, a near vegan in the last few years but not strict on a splash of milk in tea or coffee

 

I love the lifestyle and could never see myself going back

I learned to make much more interesting food instead of relying on the quick fix of some animal product

 

I am also healthier, I am also much more satisfied with simple food like salads I really love them now instead of seeing them as an "add on"

my palate is much more sensitive to these foods I enjoy them more

 

I also love that I don't feed money into the factory farming or slaughter of animals

I am an animal lover and I know these pigs and lambs and cows are perfectly intelligent, sweet and gentle vegetarian animals

I don't want to kill them

[abcqwerty123]

I have been a vegetarian for 6 or 7 years, a near vegan in the last few years but not strict on a splash of milk in tea or coffee

 

I love the lifestyle and could never see myself going back

I learned to make much more interesting food instead of relying on the quick fix of some animal product

 

I am also healthier, I am also much more satisfied with simple food like salads I really love them now instead of seeing them as an "add on"

my palate is much more sensitive to these foods I enjoy them more

 

I also love that I don't feed money into the factory farming or slaughter of animals

I am an animal lover and I know these pigs and lambs and cows are perfectly intelligent, sweet and gentle vegetarian animals

I don't want to kill them

 

That's great! Good job! Yah, just started and been about a week now and I admit that I am feeling healthier for sure. I still have my cravings but I am sure they will go away eventually. I have however been eating the fake meat which I have to remove from my diet as soon as I can so I can officially be full vegan.

 

Can I make a recommendation to you though. Instead of using milk, try out Almond Milk. I don't know if all brands are similar or not, but the one I use has no soy, no dairy, none of that stuff. You can get it with or without sugar and I get mine with sugar because it really makes things taste amazing, like tea and cereal. The only thing I would say not do with almond milk compared to regular milk is straight drink it. I mean, it too tastes great, just it is completely different taste then milk. But ya, I only use almond milk and I love it, especially with sugarless whole grain cereals and tea.

[LovePrevails]

unfortunately I am allergic to almonds, I've tried soy but I hear bad things about its health properties, not I'm sure that milk is much better

I also don't do great with too much wheat or gluten in the diet so I have quite a lot of dietary limitations but it keeps me on the straight and narrow

lots of vegetables, fruits, seeds, lentils, chickpeas, and some nuts (I am allergic to others) --- all that good stuff

[abcqwerty123]

unfortunately I am allergic to almonds, I've tried soy but I hear bad things about its health properties, not I'm sure that milk is much better

I also don't do great with too much wheat or gluten in the diet so I have quite a lot of dietary limitations but it keeps me on the straight and narrow

lots of vegetables, fruits, seeds, lentils, chickpeas, and some nuts (I am allergic to others) --- all that good stuff

 

Oh gotcha, that sucks! =(

[LovePrevails]

It's fine on the whole, I love the food I eat in the end

[tastemaker]

-How many of you are vegetarians/vegans and what do you think about the lifestyle?

 

I have been on a primarily vegan diet for two years now.  I did it for health reasons.  Not only have the negative health symptoms I was experiencing largely subsided, but have noticed an overall improvement of digestion, complexion, and mood.  Please let me know if you would like more specifics.

 

-Do you guys see eating meat as wrong even though morals can't be considered when an animal is involved due to their lack of capability to understand morals?
 

Though I do feel it is more consistent ethically speaking, if I weren't convinced of it as being an optimal diet, I would work meat back into the mix.  I was convinced largely by the work of Dr. Michael Gregor, who runs the site www.nutritionfacts.org .  Highly recommended, as he sifts through peer reviewed research on the subject to compile in easily digestible videos (no pun intended).

 

-Do the cravings for meat every go away because I cannot stop thinking about it?

 

There are a lot of transition foods available (meat substitutes, etc.).  I think it is natural when switching any diet (especially those high in sugars or salts) to have some withdrawal.  When I first went vegan, I really didn't know what I was doing and ended up shorting myself about 1000 calories from where I should have been per day.  I was literally starving myself and lost 30lbs because I didn't realize how many more plant based foods I needed to eat in order to get a proper caloric intake.  I then began tracking my nutrition with a free tool called CRONOMETER.  Using this, I was able to not only ensure I was getting enough calories, but find balance in getting all the proper nutrition as well.
 

-Is it even healthy for humans to go vegan/vegetarian because I literally hear two sides to all of it and being as uneducated as I am in the health department, I can't figure out which is correct and incorrect?

Pick almost any issue and there are "facts" and "science" on both sides.  There are a lot of emotions and politics in the sphere of diet.  I have been more convinced that the vegetarian/vegan diet is closer to what the human body is designed for, but it is difficult to get unbiased information in this field.  Here is the video that convinced me to look deeper into veganism, something I hadn't really seriously considered prior.  It cites peer reviewed materials illustrating how the further one moves away from a plant based diet, the higher the chances of risk for the leading causes of death:

Uprooting the Leading Causes of Death

 

The results I've experienced have been consistent with what I've read, which is why I am still a vegan.

-If you are a vegan/vegetarian, do you have any foods/stores you can recommend?

You can eat terribly on a vegan/vegetarian diet, just like you can with any other diet (french fries and soda are vegan), but unprocessed whole foods are optimal.  I eat a lot of bean, rice, and veggie dishes.  A few favorite staples for me: rice with broccoli and avocado, chickpea tacos, curry stew served over quinoa, banana/date smoothies, and bean based soups and chili's.

 

As far as the cost, you can certainly eat vegan for cheap (I mean, Ramen noodles are vegan), but it can get pricey when it comes to eating whole foods.  I also try to do organic, so it's even a bit pricier for me.  If you don't go organic, I could see you getting by around $3 per meal.  For me, I try to stay under $5 per meal, but again that's going for all organic ingredients.  Here is the breakdown of a common CHEAP meal for me financially:

5 organic potatoes (1/3 of a $4/5lb bag) - $1.33
8 ounces steamed mixed organic veggies (1/2 of a 16oz bag) - $1.25

1 tablespoon of coconut oil (butter substitute) - .20 cents?

Pepper or other seasoning - negligible

Total cost: $2.75
Total calories: 950

 

That's one example of a highly nutritious, simple, and BIG meal that won't leave you hungry.  I buy in bulk my staples, such as rice, dates, or anything else that has a longer storage life.  I'm happy to discuss other budget meals common in my rotation if you want to PM me (Or if you have any further questions you think I might be of value in answering).  Otherwise, best of luck with your explorations of the diet

[J. D. Stembal]

You cannot cut out all meat and still have a healthy lifestyle. It's not how the human body evolved to live. We are omnivores; we eat meat and plants. See the research and medical practice of Volek and Phinney - http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/. Also, see Bob Atkins and his successful four decade career of healing sick people with high fat diets.

 

I have avoided rice, soy, corn, wheat, and sugar for the past two years and I dropped from 200 lbs to ~155 lbs in that span of time. Stay away from industrial agriculture because it will kill you.

 

That video linked above is ridiculous. Eggs are more lethal than cigarettes! 

 

Some other literature I would recommend:

 

Wheat Belly by William Davis

Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes

The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan

The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith (if you can stomach the pernicious feminism she spouts)

The Paleo Solution by Robb Wolf

The Paleo Answer by Dr. Loren Cordain

The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson

 

These books have changed my life, so give one or two of them a look-see if you are looking to alter your nutritional outlook for the better.

[LovePrevails]

You cannot cut out all meat and still have a healthy lifestyle. It's not how the human body evolved to live. We are omnivores; 

 

Humans have a vegetarian digestive system. It's a long digestive system, that isn't very acidic.

Animals that are designed to eat meat have short digestive tracts that are very intensely acidic. They want to process it and get it out of their bodies as soon as possible.

 

They also have claws and sharp piercing teeth for hunting. If you think you can catch prey without any tools then be my guest, try chasing after a rabbit and catching it. Try jumping on the back of a horse and biting into it. I don't think you'll have much luck because you aren't evolved for it. All our closest evolutionary ancestors are vegetarian.

 

Animals designed to eat meat salivate when they see corpses. People do everything they can to make their meat not taste like meat by cooking it, spicing it, putting unhealthy processed condiment sauces on it to hide the fact that it's meat. 

 

[dazed and confused]

-Humans have a vegetarian digestive system. It's a long digestive system, that isn't very acidic.

Its pretty clear to me that humans are omnivores. they are not strict meat eaters nor strict plant eaters. They seem to prefer high quality meat and animal fats but seem to do fine for periods of time on second rate foods. 

 

-Animals that are designed to eat meat have short digestive tracts that are very intensely acidic. They want to process it and get it out of their bodies as soon as possible.

This is just a guess but you seem like the type of person who would get a cat and then feed it a vegetarian diet. A lot of poor cats have been killed in this way. RIP

 

They also have claws and sharp piercing teeth for hunting. If you think you can catch prey without any tools then be my guest, try chasing after a rabbit and catching it. Try jumping on the back of a horse and biting into it. I don't think you'll have much luck because you aren't evolved for it.

You only think that hunting is difficult because you have never done it. And why exactly cant humans use tools for hunting? Yeah when living in a big city you probably have no idea how to catch an animal but for most of human history you couldnt go out without tripping over some animal or another

 

All our closest evolutionary ancestors are vegetarian.

Not true at all

 

Animals designed to eat meat salivate when they see corpses. People do everything they can to make their meat not taste like meat by cooking it, spicing it, putting unhealthy processed condiment sauces on it to hide the fact that it's meat.

This is a big reason why i was never able to see where vegetarians were coming from and i have stumbled upon quite a few popular veganism books. Describing meat like it is the worst thing they have tasted. Meat has always been a favorite of mine, no spicing or sauces required. It even tastes good raw. 

 

How can you so called rational people honestly believe in a diet that was unfeasible before the B12 vitamin pills were invented. 

 

Take a look of your own videos, you look emaciated. As do all vegetarians, atleast i can tell that you eat the what you preach so kudos for that. In this age of the internet still beleiving in that junk is highly responsible. Take a look at all the paleo vs vegan debates and you'll see that the vegans dont have a leg to stand on once they get out of their echo chambers. 

 

These boards used to be a lot more paleo but ever since stef went vegetarian all the paleo people have either left or been quiet. 

[LovePrevails]

 

This is just a guess but you seem like the type of person who would get a cat and then feed it a vegetarian diet. A lot of poor cats have been killed in this way. RIP

 

 

You only think that hunting is difficult because you have never done it. And why exactly cant humans use tools for hunting? Yeah when living in a big city you probably have no idea how to catch an animal but for most of human history you couldnt go out without tripping over some animal or another

 

 

Not true at all

 

 

This is a big reason why i was never able to see where vegetarians were coming from and i have stumbled upon quite a few popular veganism books. Describing meat like it is the worst thing they have tasted. Meat has always been a favorite of mine, no spicing or sauces required. It even tastes good raw. 

 

How can you so called rational people honestly believe in a diet that was unfeasible before the B12 vitamin pills were invented. 

 

Take a look of your own videos, you look emaciated. As do all vegetarians, atleast i can tell that you eat the what you preach so kudos for that. In this age of the internet still beleiving in that junk is highly responsible. Take a look at all the paleo vs vegan debates and you'll see that the vegans dont have a leg to stand on once they get out of their echo chambers. 

 

These boards used to be a lot more paleo but ever since stef went vegetarian all the paleo people have either left or been quiet. 

 

 

Ah jeez talk about philosophy

what's it got to do with what is clear to you?

And what is what I would feed my cat got to do with anything? Cats have teeth designed to tear meat, humans do not.

This is just ad hominem and attack on my character, what is this crap you are spewing? you sound extremely defensive

Then you go on to describe my looks. I was not always a vegetarian and I was way skinny when I ate meat on a daily basis. I am healthier now than I've ever been before. The reason I don't hold fat is because I never bothered developing my muscles if I lifted some weights or did my press ups I'd bulk up in no time.

 

as for health vegetarians have much reduced risk of heart attack, stroke, cancer, and all forms of organ failure

 

Humans cannot outrun prey. They cannot catch them easily without tools. That is just a matter of fact.

Animals that eat meat can catch prey, their bodies are designed to catch prey without tools.

I would like some proper argument and scientific evidence to back up your position.

You don't even admit that other primates are vegetarian and that is a matter of fact.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/23/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

 

 

I am willing to be convinced by reason and evidence but not by this emotion-driven trash you are spewing.

[James Dean]

Just because veganism is healthier than the standard american diet of high fat high carb all trash doesnt mean it is healthier than a well constructed diet that contains animal products. This is essentially saying well I'm not as bad as Hitler, therefore I am good.

 

That's what always confused me too. I was a vegetarian for 10 years and hated it, although I pretended I loved it at the time because it was, and still is, a trend. That being said, the west eats too much meat, for a variety of economic and political reasons. In my experience, I felt much better once I was eating meat maybe 1 or 2 times a week, and making sure to buy really high quality meat. Serving size is a big deal with meat too, we eat too much in one sitting.

 

I guess that's where I loose the vegan crowd, I agree that our attitude towards meat has been turned totally back asswards, thanks for that, government subsidies. 

 

 

Humans have a vegetarian digestive system. It's a long digestive system, that isn't very acidic.

Animals that are designed to eat meat have short digestive tracts that are very intensely acidic. They want to process it and get it out of their bodies as soon as possible.

 

It's hard to classify animals as herbivores, omnivores, or carnivores when you look at all the factors in that organisms life; it's infinitely more difficult to classify them based on digestive tract alone. Take for instance the digestive tract of a bear, it is 40% shorter and more acidic than most herbivores. It fits the bill for a typical "carnivore" digestive tract, yet bears are omnivores. Bears will eat all kinds of fruiting bodies, the only consequence of their digestive system is a difficulty in digesting cellulose, they have no problem eating a whole bush worth of berries (trust me I've seen it!) A lot of lizards have primarily carnivorous digestive tracts, but a lot of lizards are omnivores. There are a bunch of examples for this. 

 

They also have claws and sharp piercing teeth for hunting. If you think you can catch prey without any tools then be my guest, try chasing after a rabbit and catching it. Try jumping on the back of a horse and biting into it. I don't think you'll have much luck because you aren't evolved for it. All our closest evolutionary ancestors are vegetarian.

 

Why is it valid for a cat to hunt with tools (their claws) but invalid for a human to hunt with tools?

 

And as was said before, although very unphilosophically, our closest evolutionary ancestors were not vegetarian. In fact, the process of encephalization in the species homo is linked with increasing meat in their (our?) diet. Over a long period of time, we have grown more omnivorous to better adapt. In other words, we owe our very large brain to steak. 

 

And if you've ever seen Man vs Wild, you'll know that rabbits are not the only meat you can catch with your hands. 7 days in the jungle and you'll eat anything that moves, beatles, snakes, termites, scorpions, any other animal's kill that you manage to scavenge etc. All of that meat is perfectly easy to catch with your hands (which are still tools by the way)

 

Animals designed to eat meat salivate when they see corpses. People do everything they can to make their meat not taste like meat by cooking it, spicing it, putting unhealthy processed condiment sauces on it to hide the fact that it's meat. 

 

I just wanted to point this out, as I run into this a lot, especially on this topic. It is very unphilosophical ( I think it's a religious hang-over, but that's just a guess) to say any biological organisms are "designed to" do anything. In biology, there is no design. This goes like 5000 times more for humans in particular. While a cat is not designed to hunt, it is largely slave to it's instincts to hunt and eat. Humans on the other hand have broken almost all biological constraints, we can change our habitat like it's nothing, we can conquer our base instincts with logic and reason, we can reject the perceived evidence of our senses, and we can choose what we want to eat. The fact that there are vegetarians, paleos, vegans, pescetarians and the rest just goes to show that the human digestive tract is not designed to do anything. 

 

I don't want to ad hom you here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you don't know a lot about human evolution. I gather this from the basic factual errors that you made in your post. Let me address another here by saying humans began to cook food, not because we didn't like the taste of meat, but because it was more efficient. when you cook food you can eat it much faster, as it takes a lot of chewing and gnawing to get all the nutrients out of a raw cut of meat (think of why dogs like to gnaw on bones, because they spent their evolutionary lives eating raw meat). All this free time allowed people to spend more time making tools, making clothes, and making babies. ;D

 

That being said, the human digestive tract is perfectly capable of digesting raw meat, I have eaten plenty of raw meat and I love the taste. Humans generally don't like vegetables either that's why we fry them, boil them, cover them in cheese, butter, bacon, the whole lot! Most humans would find it difficult to eat a raw potato, that doesn't mean we should never eat potatoes. 

[Tyler Durden]

*Intelligent response*

 

Thanks for bringing some sanity back to the meat eater side of the discussion James Dean, much appreciated. Now we can have an actual conversation.

 

You're right in saying that LovePrevails made some incorrect statements, but to be fair, he was triggered by a post that started with this sentence:

 

You cannot cut out all meat and still have a healthy lifestyle.

 

Which is ridiculous, it would literally mean that there is not a single healthy person among the millions of vegetarians worldwide.

 

After saying that EndTheUsurpation also was the one who started making evolutionary claims. And in my experience it's usually a meat eater who brings up the omnivore argument claiming that the ability to eat plants and animals means that you have some sort of obligation to eat both, which is simply not the case. Nonetheless, LovePrevails did make some mistakes in his response.

 

When we look at evolution I think the most probable theory is that our ancestors who lived in trees ate mostly or maybe exclusively plants. Just like our closest living relatives still do today (chimps eat meat a few times a year, orangutans hardly ever, and gorillas never). But once our ancestors got out of the trees they started eating meat as well and they started cooking their food, and that has helped them develop into the awesome species we are today.

 

I do think that cooking played a bigger role than meat eating, largely based on Richard Wrangham's book "Catching Fire - how cooking made us human". And if you compare our anatomy to that of herbivorous and carnivorous mammals you'll find that we still have more in common with the herbivores. (http://zh.scribd.com/doc/94656/The-Comparative-Anatomy-of-Eating)

 

But it is clear that we can digest both, especially since we can cook our food. And I totally agree with you that we are not designed to do anything. So I think we should take that idea off the table and look at our situation and arguments in the here and now.

 

From a health standpoint. I think there's a good case to be made for a vegetarian/vegan diet. I provided some links in my first post that show that people who don't eat meat have a lower risk at obesity, heart disease, cancer, diabetes and on average have a longer lifespan (even after other lifestyle factors are filtered out). (these are the links: http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677895 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.full )

 

Of course that doesn't mean that it's impossible to eat healthy with little meat. But it does mean that eating meat is not a necessity. You can leave it out completely and live in very good health. If you eat a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet then there is nothing in meat that will make you healthier.

 

Obviously you've given vegetarianism a serious shot if you've done it for 10 years. But if you felt much better after going back to eating meat once or twice a week than either what you felt was only psychological because you thought you needed it or your vegetarian diet was not balanced. You could have been missing nutrients that are present in meat, but you could have obtained those same nutrients from other sources as well. Simply because none of the essential nutrients are exclusive to meat.

 

So I'd love to hear it if you have any evidence to the contrary, but as far as I know the bottom line is still that we don't need meat at all.

[J. D. Stembal]

From a health standpoint. I think there's a good case to be made for a vegetarian/vegan diet. I provided some links in my first post that show that people who don't eat meat have a lower risk at obesity, heart disease, cancer, diabetes and on average have a longer lifespan (even after other lifestyle factors are filtered out). (these are the links: http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22677895 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/532s.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.full )

 

 

 

Cancer, obesity, heart disease and diabetes are all characteristics of metabolic syndrome, which is not caused by eating meat, but by eating too many products of modern state-subsidized industrialized agriculture: Soy, Wheat, Corn, and Sugar. These are the four horsemen of our health care apocalypse!

 

Don't believe the deliberately misleading nutritional propaganda disseminated by the USDA. Check out Gary Taubes. He will blow your mind.

 

[Tyler Durden]

Cancer, obesity, heart disease and diabetes are all characteristics of metabolic syndrome, which is not caused by eating meat, but by eating too many products of modern state-subsidized industrialized agriculture: Soy, Wheat, Corn, and Sugar. These are the four horsemen of our health care apocalypse!

 

Don't believe the deliberately misleading nutritional propaganda disseminated by the USDA. Check out Gary Taubes. He will blow your mind.

 

 

I certainly agree with you that there are multiple serious problems with the diet of the average American. We've been talking about meat because that's what this thread is about, but I think that aside from that we are actually in agreement on a great deal of those problems.

 

It's interesting that you bring up Gary Taubes because I have actually watched several of his videos before and I must say that in the first video I watched he really did blow my mind. He presented this completely different approach to fat and I was like "wow, I've never looked at it that way". And this feeling remained for most of the video but at the end of the video I realized that he hadn't really answered the mindblowing questions that he had raised at the beginning.

 

So I watched more of his videos, also debates with other people, and the more I watched the more unanswered questions came up. He's very slick so it's hard to see but once I started paying attention to it I noticed that he simply evaded every question that he didn't want to answer. For me, that's when he lost his credibility. And then I read this critical review of one of his books: http://thescienceofnutrition.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/good-calories-bad-calories-a-critical-review/

 

Obviously you're free to draw your own conclusions, but I found it impossible to trust anything he says after reading that review.

 

That said, I think we should move the topic of discussion back to meat and meat-free diets, since that is what this thread is about.

 

I think we can all agree that eating meat is a choice, not a necessity. Humans can live in optimal health without eating meat and I posted several scientific publications showing that not eating meat is actually beneficial to your health. If anyone can disprove those claims with actual science I am certainly open to hearing it.

[LovePrevails]

That's what always confused me too. I was a vegetarian for 10 years and hated it, although I pretended I loved it at the time because it was, and still is, a trend. That being said, the west eats too much meat, for a variety of economic and political reasons. In my experience, I felt much better once I was eating meat maybe 1 or 2 times a week, and making sure to buy really high quality meat. Serving size is a big deal with meat too, we eat too much in one sitting.

 

I guess that's where I loose the vegan crowd, I agree that our attitude towards meat has been turned totally back asswards, thanks for that, government subsidies. 

 

 

 

It's hard to classify animals as herbivores, omnivores, or carnivores when you look at all the factors in that organisms life; it's infinitely more difficult to classify them based on digestive tract alone. Take for instance the digestive tract of a bear, it is 40% shorter and more acidic than most herbivores. It fits the bill for a typical "carnivore" digestive tract, yet bears are omnivores. Bears will eat all kinds of fruiting bodies, the only consequence of their digestive system is a difficulty in digesting cellulose, they have no problem eating a whole bush worth of berries (trust me I've seen it!) A lot of lizards have primarily carnivorous digestive tracts, but a lot of lizards are omnivores. There are a bunch of examples for this. 

 

 

Why is it valid for a cat to hunt with tools (their claws) but invalid for a human to hunt with tools?

 

And as was said before, although very unphilosophically, our closest evolutionary ancestors were not vegetarian. In fact, the process of encephalization in the species homo is linked with increasing meat in their (our?) diet. Over a long period of time, we have grown more omnivorous to better adapt. In other words, we owe our very large brain to steak. 

 

And if you've ever seen Man vs Wild, you'll know that rabbits are not the only meat you can catch with your hands. 7 days in the jungle and you'll eat anything that moves, beatles, snakes, termites, scorpions, any other animal's kill that you manage to scavenge etc. All of that meat is perfectly easy to catch with your hands (which are still tools by the way)

 

 

I just wanted to point this out, as I run into this a lot, especially on this topic. It is very unphilosophical ( I think it's a religious hang-over, but that's just a guess) to say any biological organisms are "designed to" do anything. In biology, there is no design. This goes like 5000 times more for humans in particular. While a cat is not designed to hunt, it is largely slave to it's instincts to hunt and eat. Humans on the other hand have broken almost all biological constraints, we can change our habitat like it's nothing, we can conquer our base instincts with logic and reason, we can reject the perceived evidence of our senses, and we can choose what we want to eat. The fact that there are vegetarians, paleos, vegans, pescetarians and the rest just goes to show that the human digestive tract is not designed to do anything. 

 

I don't want to ad hom you here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you don't know a lot about human evolution. I gather this from the basic factual errors that you made in your post. Let me address another here by saying humans began to cook food, not because we didn't like the taste of meat, but because it was more efficient. when you cook food you can eat it much faster, as it takes a lot of chewing and gnawing to get all the nutrients out of a raw cut of meat (think of why dogs like to gnaw on bones, because they spent their evolutionary lives eating raw meat). All this free time allowed people to spend more time making tools, making clothes, and making babies. ;D

 

That being said, the human digestive tract is perfectly capable of digesting raw meat, I have eaten plenty of raw meat and I love the taste. Humans generally don't like vegetables either that's why we fry them, boil them, cover them in cheese, butter, bacon, the whole lot! Most humans would find it difficult to eat a raw potato, that doesn't mean we should never eat potatoes. 

 

So far as my research has shown humans are scavengers rather than omnivores, that is to say we developed the capacity to digest meat because it's convenient in scarcity but not to thrive on it. You have said a lot, and you are write I used bad terminology in saying "designed" perhaps "adapted" would be more accurate?  - I don't get how you can equate a cats claws with "tools" ---- claws are adapted into the organism itself for the purpose of eating meat. I acknowledge your examples of ambiguity animals, but the point remains humans are extremely ill adapted to eat meat without the use of man made tools which is almost unique in the animal kingdom. You can look into your dogs mouth and see teeth that were adapted to tear meat. Another point is that meat eaters don't chew their food at all, they tear it and swallow. Humans chew and chew and chew. That's what their teeth are designed to do, chew, not tear.

 

You are right that the western diet includes a lot of trash including corn-fed meat rather than grass fed, I think it would be interesting to see some studies done specifically to discern whether meat in general promotes cancer, heart disease, stroke, et al. or it is just the kind  of meat which people eat as I don't know if this has been distinguished in the studies. 

 

I find it interesting that you eat raw meat, and I wonder if that is healthier, but it is comparitively rare I have to say.

Why do you suppose that is? There is a lot of stuff out there saying raw foods are best these days because you don't cook out nutrients.

 

I have done a lot better on a vegetarian diet than I did substituting effort for grabbing a ham sandwich, which is what I used to do.

I don't think I would go back unless it was demonstrated to me that I had a specific health need for it and even then I'd just eat what I needed to because I don't like to contribute to unnecessary suffering of animals or monetize factory farming, I have taken cod liver oil supplements on occasion while being otherwise vegetarian.

 

If as you say, humans closest evolutionary ancestors were not vegetarian can you provide links?

A quick google leads to pages of articles that claim the contrary, that they were.

[Ray H.]

There is evidence that Australopiths butchered carcasses that they scavenged. I don't understand the objection to including scavenged meat as a legitimate part of an omnivorous diet. Hominids and pre-hominids have eaten meat in this manner for millions of years. It figures prominently in anthropological theory. Likewise, the objection to viewing tools as a legitimate way to obtain food. The hominid brain is the anatomical equivalent to tiger claws. Both allow the animal an advantage in the pursuit of survival. The brain counts, so, tools count. 

 

As for teeth, hominids developed smaller molars as their diet changed from one of low-energy plants to higher-energy sources like meat and fruit. Chimps show the same dental progression. And, yes, chimps eat meat.