Practical Philosophical Question, Tipping

[Triumph]

When is it alright not to leave a tip at a restaurant where tips are expected?

 

Poor service

Terrible service

or

My waiter was a Statist Assassin sent back in time to kill me and stop my future revolution from taking place

[NotDarkYet]

It's not immoral not to tip.  It's an aesthetic question.

 

 

Personally, I hate the whole system of tipping.

 

In Asia, where I lived for 8 years, there was no tipping.  So no confusion (is this person making 40 dollars an hour?!) , no guilt (did I tip enough?), no rewarding people who didn't choose a good career.

 

So, I don't go to sit down restaurants or bars now.

 

 

I know a 38 year old guy, drug addict, flakey as heck, making double my wage (at many times) who is a server at a restaurant.  Something's wrong there. 

[AustinJames]

If by "alright" you mean "moral," there is no moral content in it.  As threebobs stated, it is an aesthetic preference.  You have not entered into any contract, and choosing not to tip does not violate UPB.  If by "alright" you mean "I won't be considered an asshole," that's a different conversation.

 

I don't usually rely on the traditional percent scale for tipping.  Instead, I just consider what the service staff has accomplished on my behalf, and pay them what I think it's worth.  Even if the service is terrible, I usually give them something, because at the very least they took my order, brought my food, and cleaned up my mess.  Even if they do a piss-poor job, I pay for whatever meager service I receive.  I would only stiff someone if I felt their contributions were a net negative to my experience.

 

One time, working as a server, I spilled an Italian soda on a customer's slacks.  He didn't tip me anything, and I didn't blame him; the dry cleaning would have cost about as much as the tip, so I can understand that.  One time I waited on James Cameron during Sundance and I ran my ass off for his snooty party, and he tipped me about 10%.  I think that's a little on the asshole side of things.

[Triumph]

It is a moral issue because society has made it a moral issue.  How many viral bullshit stories have ran in the last year directly concerning waiters not getting small tips or no tips.  Too many.  They've been so popular because it offends our moral sensibilities.

[AustinJames]

I didn't say it wasn't a moral issue.  I said it has no moral content.  Homosexuality is likewise a moral issue, because, as you said, it offends the moral sensibilities of certain individuals; yet homosexuality has no moral content.

[abcqwerty123]

It is alright not to leave a tip whenever you don't want to leave a tip. I always worked in the food and beverage industry and I lived on tips for a long time. I always hear people complaining, "I got shit tips", "I had such a terrible customer", and all that, and every single person I hear say stuff like that are extremely terrible workers. They are rude, no ability to converse, can't handle more then 2 tables without being completely overwhelmed and stressed, and to be honest, I wouldn't tip any of them either. For me though, I worked at 3 different places, each where I lived off of tips, and I can tell you that I very very very rarely ever had bad tippers. I won't say never because unfortunately you will get them from time to time, but I did have many many more extremely great tippers then I did bad ones. I was always complimented saying I was one of the best waiters people ever had and all that, and to be honest, I am not a social person at all. It is just, I went into work knowing it was a job. I worked my ass off and instead of going out to smoke or talking to people in the kitchen, I hungout with my customers and talked with them, unless they looked as though they wanted to not be bothered.

 

So yah, sorry for the rant. I just get very annoyed with this topic because I have soooo many "friends" on facebook that claim they are great servers who just never seem to have any good tippers. When I go out, if I have a good server, I give up to 50% of the check as a tip. If they aren't, I will leave a dollar. Most people I go out to eat with are very generous tippers as well and people like my sister will leave a decent tip even if the server is terrible because she feels bad. And none of us are well off at all. We all live pay check to pay check. So this idea that all servers suffer is ridiculous and just keeps promoting bad working habits.

 

The problem isn't tippers, the problem is servers.

[PatrickC]

I only tip great service

 

[Pepin]

I think people ought to tip 15-20% if the service was good. Less or none at all if it was terrible. The percentage does depend on the laws, as in Canada servers are paid a higher wage, which causes the tip range to be 5-10%.

 

Something to consider is that the server's wage is always paid for by the consumer, either directly through tipping, or indirectly through the purchase of food. People tend to focus on the fact that the restaurant pays their servers so little, but this isn't actually true as whether the compensation is coming directly from the customer or indirectly from the restaurant does not matter. If tips were banned and a server were to make the same amount of money in wages as tips, the price of food would increase, meaning the same amount of money would continue to come from the consumer. One reason for tipping is that it allows restaurants to advertise 10-20% lower prices, while expecting customers to pay the actual price for food an service. A restaurant that banned tipping and continued to pay their servers the same would simply increase their food prices by 10-20%, the customer would still be paying the tip, but indirectly.

 

There are some minor nuisances to this, such as the fluctuations in tip percentage per meal being different than the static price increase per meal, but whatever. This explanation is a bit repetitive because it isn't something people understand very well, if everyone stopped tipping and wanted servers wages to remain constant, what you would have paid for voluntarily through tip is now mandatory through price. Realistically, you'd likely pay a little less.

 

Servers tend to focus a little much on the instances where they were tipped little or not at all than all the instances they were tipped the average or more. This thought pattern is normal psychologically, but is not exactly rational.

[abcqwerty123]

I think people ought to tip 15-20% if the service was good. Less or none at all if it was terrible. The percentage does depend on the laws, as in Canada servers are paid a higher wage, which causes the tip range to be 5-10%.

 

Something to consider is that the server's wage is always paid for by the consumer, either directly through tipping, or indirectly through the purchase of food. People tend to focus on the fact that the restaurant pays their servers so little, but this isn't actually true as whether the compensation is coming directly from the customer or indirectly from the restaurant does not matter. If tips were banned and a server were to make the same amount of money in wages as tips, the price of food would increase, meaning the same amount of money would continue to come from the consumer. One reason for tipping is that it allows restaurants to advertise 10-20% lower prices, while expecting customers to pay the actual price for food an service. A restaurant that banned tipping and continued to pay their servers the same would simply increase their food prices by 10-20%, the customer would still be paying the tip, but indirectly.

 

There are some minor nuisances to this, such as the fluctuations in tip percentage per meal being different than the static price increase per meal, but whatever. This explanation is a bit repetitive because it isn't something people understand very well, if everyone stopped tipping and wanted servers wages to remain constant, what you would have paid for voluntarily through tip is now mandatory through price. Realistically, you'd likely pay a little less.

 

Servers tend to focus a little much on the instances where they were tipped little or not at all than all the instances they were tipped the average or more. This thought pattern is normal psychologically, but is not exactly rational.

 

I live in California and have always worked in California where servers have to be paid min wage. They have been changing a bunch of laws lately but as far as I know, California is one of the few states where servers must be paid minimum wage even when receiving tips. Most states can pay like 2.50$ an hour if they receive tips. However, even with my minimum wage pay being the full amount, I couldn't tell you a single full shift day that I came home with under 15% my sales in tips. It averaged probably closer to 25-30%. So yah, this idea that servers make crap money is absolutely ridiculous. It is just bad workers that make bad money.

 

See, we had a restaurant open up about an hour from my house that advertised how they raised food prices by like 30 cents an item or something like that and that they don't accept tips and servers make $12 an hour. My dad and I went there when we were in the area and I kid you not, the place was empty and our server was TERRIBLE! There wasn't a single person in the place (it was between lunch and dinner), yet they messed up both of our orders, told us that we would have to pay the 30 cents fee on the meals they messed up but they would take the meal charge out of the bill, but we still had to pay for our order that we eventually got about an hour and a half afterwords, all cold. The food, even though it was cold, was actually very good but the server was freaking terrible. When we had got the bill, our food had an extra 5$ charge called the "tip" charge on top of the 30 cent addons we had. Then when we finally got out of that place, we saw the 1 server out on the side smoking and our server walks out and picks up an already lit cig and starts smoking, as if she was smoking instead of helping us. I mean, this was a pure nightmare.

 

So, that place is proud to say they raised the prices of food a slight bit (with additional charges they don't tell you about) in order to better their servers. The servers were making $12 an hour. With my pay and tips, I was making about 24-27$ an hour. It varied slightly each year. On top of that solid wage with no tips, their service is complete crap. Some of the worst service I have ever had. I mean, there is almost no motivation to work hard for the customer when you get the same pay either way. And I know you will say, if they get complaints and all that, they will get fired. I can promise you that most managers do NOT care about the customer at all. They hired the servers so they will do their best to calm the customer down and as soon as the customer walks out, the manager will go back to talking shit about that customer with the server. The few places I ended up managing, I was fortunate enough to have hard working servers and the few complaints I ever received were things like "the steak was too pink", and I would ask, how did you order it, "medium rare", and yah, I couldn't punish hard working servers for customer stupidity, but again, that was very very rare.

 

Anyways, my rant is officially over haha. In the end, tips are great and no tips aren't. Don't trust me? Go to your local mcdonalds, taco bell, or other fast food chain where they get paid min wage and no tips and then go to a high end steak house where servers are more likely hard working badasses and let me know which you would prefer.

[DrTruthiness]

I tip extremely well. Much over 50% if the service was great. If the service was very poor, I will leave roughly 25 cents with a note on the receipt explaining why the tip was low.

 

The reason is simple: I pay for what the service was worth to me, and I worked customer service for five years all the way through college. Finding quality people who stick around and deliver consistently is hard. If poor service is showing up on the customer end, it's 10 times worse on the morale of the crew on the business end.

 

Ultimately, I guess I don't see it as a moral issue. My money is representative of the labor and service I have generated. It's my pleasure to reward people by turning their quality service into money of their own.

[abcqwerty123]

I tip extremely well. Much over 50% if the service was great. If the service was very poor, I will leave roughly 25 cents with a note on the receipt explaining why the tip was low.The reason is simple: I pay for what the service was worth to me, and I worked customer service for five years all the way through college. Finding quality people who stick around and deliver consistently is hard. If poor service is showing up on the customer end, it's 10 times worse on the morale of the crew on the business end.Ultimately, I guess I don't see it as a moral issue. My money is representative of the labor and service I have generated. It's my pleasure to reward people by turning their quality service into money of their own.

 

Thankyou! =)

[fractional slacker]

Tipping is an interesting topic to me because it is generally a good indicator to gauge one's outlook, economic education, and degree of self self knowledge all within a transparent, simple, and everyday transaction.

 

The ingredients and circumstance of tipping are rife for philosophical discussion and differences: it's voluntary, it (usually) involves a stranger, there are no legal consequences, there are social implications (Reservoir Dogs vid does great job demonstrating that aspect). In a sense tipping presents an economic and ethical dilemma- something that scares the hell out of most people.

 

Can anyone come up with a simple and similar thing to tipping that causes as much worry and anxiety? 

[Triumph]

Good observations fractional_S

[luxfelix]

Tipping is an interesting topic to me because it is generally a good indicator to gauge one's outlook, economic education, and degree of self self knowledge all within a transparent, simple, and everyday transaction.

 

The ingredients and circumstance of tipping are rife for philosophical discussion and differences: it's voluntary, it (usually) involves a stranger, there are no legal consequences, there are social implications (Reservoir Dogs vid does great job demonstrating that aspect). In a sense tipping presents an economic and ethical dilemma- something that scares the hell out of most people.

 

Can anyone come up with a simple and similar thing to tipping that causes as much worry and anxiety? 

 

Would holding the door open for someone count (to a lesser degree), or maybe when receiving charity requests? 

[fractional slacker]

Would holding the door open for someone count (to a lesser degree), or maybe when receiving charity requests? 

 

Holding a door open is somewhat similar, IMO, albeit slightly influenced by chivalry as men are usually the ones going out of their way to hold a door for a lady, especially attractive young ladies. However, there is no economic dimension to complicate things.

 

When you mention charity, the same gender thing comes to mind. I'm sure you have noticed these car washes kids put on to raise money for school activities. They often have signs FREE CAR WASH being waved around by attractive young women. When you pull up they tell you the cause they are raising money for and suggest a donation amount. They wash your car but can't legally force you to pay. I'm sure there are very rare occasions people don't pay for whatever reason, but never out of principle. They may have forgot to bring money or they are upset with the quality of work. Nobody in their right mind would say "The sign said FREE."It's like a restaurant advertising FREE SERVICE, which would be technically correct, but it wouldn't negate the tipping practice. It would also seem weird to advertise what everyone already knows: the waiter extends to you a service and you decide what it's worth.On a side note. The car wash situation has me thinking. This is presented merely as a rhetorical question.  Since I have never seen young men out waving signs for FREE CAR WASH, is using attractive young ladies to be considered sexual exploitation? Would the car wash receiver be considered guilty of sexual exploitation? ATTN: Paul Walker 

[Triumph]

Would holding the door open for someone count (to a lesser degree), or maybe when receiving charity requests? 

 

I would say no.  The reason being, courting rituals and charity are common anywhere in the world.  Tipping to the extent we do in the USA, is not at all common. 

 

Holding a door open is somewhat similar, IMO, albeit slightly influenced by chivalry as men are usually the ones going out of their way to hold a door for a lady, especially attractive young ladies. However, there is no economic dimension to complicate things...

 

For sure.

[Slavik]

I think both scenarios are up to you.  If you thin that poor service was worth not leaving a tip, well then dont leave one.  On the other hand, if you think that there is a reason why the waiter wasnt all that great, maybe you can see he /she is tired so on and so forth (basically if you still want to leave a tip then leave a tip).

 

The last scenario was not realistic, if the waiter is a statist, then that society couldnt  possibly have developed time travel

[fractional slacker]

Not sure if a coherent argument with this hypothetical situation can be made, or if it is worth the effort, but this is what I have come up with.You have grown up in this place called America and you are fully aware of the culture, custom, and tradition of tipping.

(A) If you held the philosophical position of (Mr. Pink in video) of not tipping, or

(B) you didn't tip for practical reasons (didn't bring enough cash, or credit card is maxed out), the effect is the same ie no tip.

(1)  Could the non-tip be justified by either A, or B?

(2) Have you violated the NAP (property rights) by getting a service and not paying for it?

[J. D. Stembal]

I got into a disagreement with a service employee once when I emphatically stated that I do not factor the sales tax into the tip amount. She called my behavior stingy, which is hardly the case as I've tipped $50 on a $100 bill before. The service always has to warrant the tip, though. I feel that most people have largely been brainwashed by the industry (and the single mother/waitress stereotype) to tip 20% for mediocre service, which creeps up higher if you are tipping based on the total bill, including sales tax.

[cab21]

tip what you want, if you want.

 

so it's alright if you don't want to tip.

 

it's not like you are going to keep going to a place where you chose not to tip, when you choose to tip other place right?

[Aikenrooster]

I absolutely hate the cult of tipping.  The service industry has done a good job of bullying me into tipping, to be sure, and so has some of my family members.  I believe that restaurants are charging MORE than they would, for the food, than if there was no tipping.  Yes, prices would go up, but not as much as one might think.  They are making more of a profit by not having to pay their workers a competitive wage.

 

I get tired of the waiter/waitress getting down on their knees, acting like they're my best friend, and making fake conversation.  Hell, my father even lets the waitress hug and kiss on him, right in front of my mom(who has cancer).

 

I realize the guy is only making $2.50/hr..  Ok, I make about $15.00/hr., and I work a life threatening job.  So, I want to make sure the guy is making at least the same wage that I make.  OK, so if we're in there for less than an hour and he's waiting on us and another table, then, the 2 tables only need to tip him about $7 or $8, each, to bump his pay up to over $15.00/hour.  But, I always get pressured into leaving $15.00, or more, and I think it's utter bullshit that some kid is making $40/ hour, because of this stupid system in America.

 

To hell with this % system, and to hell with tipping on drinks and taxes, too.

[cab21]

I absolutely hate the cult of tipping.  The service industry has done a good job of bullying me into tipping, to be sure, and so has some of my family members.  I believe that restaurants are charging MORE than they would, for the food, than if there was no tipping.  Yes, prices would go up, but not as much as one might think.  They are making more of a profit by not having to pay their workers a competitive wage.

 

 

 

 

 

some people want to make all their money from tips

some want to make all their money from wages

if the restaurant wants to hire people that want to make money from tips, why should the restaurant not hire people that want tips instead of a wage?

 

if they were not paying  competitively , the people would not work there.

 

 a competitive wage is a wage that goes down with more supply or less demand.

 

so if one person takes more risk, and goes off commission, and another takes less risk, and goes off a wage, then both have decided what they want to work for, and can get compensated accordingly.

[Triumph]

I know I don't go to certain restaurants anymore because of tipping.  If a meal is only worth $10 to me, and I am expected to pay $10 + tip, I suddenly find an excuse to cook for myself or pack a lunch.

 

I guess that is the free market solution to things.  Less business for the restaurants because of the added expense for not looking cheap.

[Trivium_method_man]

I think people ought to tip 15-20% if the service was good. Less or none at all if it was terrible. The percentage does depend on the laws, as in Canada servers are paid a higher wage, which causes the tip range to be 5-10%.

 

Something to consider is that the server's wage is always paid for by the consumer, either directly through tipping, or indirectly through the purchase of food. People tend to focus on the fact that the restaurant pays their servers so little, but this isn't actually true as whether the compensation is coming directly from the customer or indirectly from the restaurant does not matter. If tips were banned and a server were to make the same amount of money in wages as tips, the price of food would increase, meaning the same amount of money would continue to come from the consumer. One reason for tipping is that it allows restaurants to advertise 10-20% lower prices, while expecting customers to pay the actual price for food an service. A restaurant that banned tipping and continued to pay their servers the same would simply increase their food prices by 10-20%, the customer would still be paying the tip, but indirectly.

 

There are some minor nuisances to this, such as the fluctuations in tip percentage per meal being different than the static price increase per meal, but whatever. This explanation is a bit repetitive because it isn't something people understand very well, if everyone stopped tipping and wanted servers wages to remain constant, what you would have paid for voluntarily through tip is now mandatory through price. Realistically, you'd likely pay a little less.

 

Servers tend to focus a little much on the instances where they were tipped little or not at all than all the instances they were tipped the average or more. This thought pattern is normal psychologically, but is not exactly rational. 

I agree. My little model goes like this:

 

Consumer>Deliverer/Liaison>Producer.    me             wait staff           resturant

 

I want olive gardens food

olive garden doesn't sell food directly to the publicolive garden hires people at low cost to sell and deliver the food to patrons, at a slightly lower cost (usually)

depending on how efficient, satisfying, and pleasurable the experience was (not just the food)

the customer can compensate the wait staff accordingly

because a portion of the wait staff's income comes from the customer, they have incentive to provide quality service

if quality service is produced, the restaurant becomes busier and profits increase all around

 

looking at it from that perspective, I like the concept of tipping. (slightly lower price on food and quality service)Is it immoral to not tip? I don't believe so. People voluntarily become servers.

They sign up knowing part of their income depends on others, but there is still no obligation to tip.

But if quality service is provided, and no one ever tips, the system falls apart.

Restaurants lose money, and close or fire people and raise the food cost and keep servers pay the same.

Ultimately forcing one server to do the work of three, which further lowers quality, and it just spirals down to destruction.

[jacbot]

USA has a tipping culture...., I dont understand why a salaried employee in a customer facing situation should be tipped just for doing her job.

If it was akin to a sales job , then she should just get a fixed commission on the food she sells, but that is of course not the same as tipping.

--

I was in the US 5x, but never tipped, I  avoided restaurants like the plague.

[J. D. Stembal]

I absolutely hate the cult of tipping.  The service industry has done a good job of bullying me into tipping, to be sure, and so has some of my family members.  I believe that restaurants are charging MORE than they would, for the food, than if there was no tipping.  Yes, prices would go up, but not as much as one might think.  They are making more of a profit by not having to pay their workers a competitive wage.

 

I get tired of the waiter/waitress getting down on their knees, acting like they're my best friend, and making fake conversation.  Hell, my father even lets the waitress hug and kiss on him, right in front of my mom(who has cancer).

 

I realize the guy is only making $2.50/hr..  Ok, I make about $15.00/hr., and I work a life threatening job.  So, I want to make sure the guy is making at least the same wage that I make.  OK, so if we're in there for less than an hour and he's waiting on us and another table, then, the 2 tables only need to tip him about $7 or $8, each, to bump his pay up to over $15.00/hour.  But, I always get pressured into leaving $15.00, or more, and I think it's utter bullshit that some kid is making $40/ hour, because of this stupid system in America.

 

To hell with this % system, and to hell with tipping on drinks and taxes, too.

 

It could be possible that your family may have more immediate issues to address than figuring out how much to tip the server. I've largely solved the non-existent problem buy refusing to go out to eat. Restaurants hardly ever serve quality foods that aren't adulterated with the products of industrialized agriculture, so why bother?

[luxfelix]

It's voting with your dollars. 

 

If people don't go out to eat, than the restaurants will need to change to compete with the alternatives (eating at home, etc.) or risk collapse (or... go to government and order off their menu...   ).

 

From what I understand, the restaurant industry (as we know it today) was largely a result of the French Revolution. Without their previous patrons (decapitated), chefs set up shop to serve the public. If restaurants fail, it's possible that we may see more home chefs in the future.

 

The history of tipping apparently goes back two hundred years or so before that (T.I.P. To Insure Promptitude as it were), and was later considered "the vilest of imported vices [from Europe]" in a New York Times article from 1897. Six states even tried to pass anti-tipping bills in 1915. William Scott wrote about how tipping "created a servile attitude" and was "democracy's mortal foe" in his 1916 book, "The Itching Palm"; his criticism is against employees, employers, and tippers alike, and Scott even compares getting rid of tipping to the abolition of African slavery.

 

(As a personal aside: When I could not leave a generous tip to show my appreciation for excellent service, I would find some other way to let the server know they did a superb job whether by telling them directly or, if they're really busy, by writing a note, leaving a drawing, and/or letting the manager know. I've even asked for a server by name in later reservations. As gratuity can show gratitude, I feel good leaving a tip for good service; if ever I meet a server whom wouldn't deserve a tip whatsoever, then I don't feel the need to be served by them and can either request another server or go somewhere else.)

 

And, since we vote with our dollars, perhaps, on a subconscious level, the anxiety and social pressures of tipping bad service is similar to voting for bad politicians (who wants to reward that...)?