Thoughts on entheogenic substances? + Story time!

[NeoCortex]

I personally life in a country where some of these substances are attained thought stores, legally. 

 

A psilocybin [a substance found in fungus, magic mushroom and alike] induced trip I did a few years ago was a truly profound experience. At first I was very scared, which you should be. But once I let all my fears go and stopped resisting it was beautiful. I went trough a fire growing up which nearly killed me, had recurring nightmares for a little longer then a year. I never had them after said trip. Much later, one day browsing reddit, I found out that psilocybin actually had great healing powers for people suffering from PTSD. This was very intriguing to me because of my own anecdotal experience. Unsurprisingly, many other ''love drugs'' seem to do the same thing, healing very damaged individuals by temporary changing their conscience. Anyone else on this forum with experiences concerning entheogenic substances? 

 

In other words, I self medicated not with amphetamines; but with something that has to power to heal you substantially in one setting.

 

 

It might actually not be the experience alone, but it might be that the substance itself repairs the physiological mutations caused by trauma.

[Kevin Beal]

Have you done any psychotherapy to work through other traumas?

 

I'm always curious about how people are using the word "healing" when talking about stuff like this.

 

I know people who've had very traumatic experiences of the drug, and I have tried it a half dozen times or so trying to see what all the fuss was about. I kept getting way too overwhelmed to get anything out of it, and when I wasn't overwhelmed, it was interesting with the tracers and melting wood panel, and the artificial sense of profundity. I've asked lots of people what they got out of the experience and every time it's something either super vague or completely unverifiable. So, I remain skeptical.

 

I've written down epiphanies that I've had on the drug that were underwhelming the next day when I read them. As far as I can tell, the aha moments people have on hallucinogens are artificial. It's like Einstein said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". And maybe it's just the crew I was hanging out with.

 

It took some digging, but the actual study is here. The abstract does look like it does help treat learned fear responses at low doses in mice, but I have a hell of a time finding the full study on Pubmed on their abstract page. It's like the worst page layout in the world.

 

If someone could link me to the full text, I'd appreciate it.

 

The link you gave makes it clear multiple times that the dose is an important factor (below what would likely cause "illusionations"). I actually wonder if the dose high enough to alter your perception of the world to be less reflective of reality is a sign that it's "too much". Like how drinking a glass of wine can be good for the heart, but drinking too much can make you drunk as hell and do damage to your body.

 

The study seems really interesting and I'd be interested to see some double blind human testing, but I don't think this is the same thing as saying that taking enough shrooms to illusionate is a positive and therapeutic thing we should recommend to people. Do you know what I mean?

 

Also, have you heard this podcast?

 

FDR866 Drugs

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_866_Drugs.mp3

[StylesGrant]

My thoughts- as per Mr. Rogan, that politicians should try it. More on this later.

[NeoCortex]

Have you done any psychotherapy to work through other traumas?

 

I'm always curious about how people are using the word "healing" when talking about stuff like this.

 

I know people who've had very traumatic experiences of the drug, and I have tried it a half dozen times or so trying to see what all the fuss was about. I kept getting way too overwhelmed to get anything out of it, and when I wasn't overwhelmed, it was interesting with the tracers and melting wood panel, and the artificial sense of profundity. I've asked lots of people what they got out of the experience and every time it's something either super vague or completely unverifiable. So, I remain skeptical.

 

I've written down epiphanies that I've had on the drug that were underwhelming the next day when I read them. As far as I can tell, the aha moments people have on hallucinogens are artificial. It's like Einstein said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". And maybe it's just the crew I was hanging out with.

 

It took some digging, but the actual study is here. The abstract does look like it does help treat learned fear responses at low doses in mice, but I have a hell of a time finding the full study on Pubmed on their abstract page. It's like the worst page layout in the world.

 

If someone could link me to the full text, I'd appreciate it.

 

The link you gave makes it clear multiple times that the dose is an important factor (below what would likely cause "illusionations"). I actually wonder if the dose high enough to alter your perception of the world to be less reflective of reality is a sign that it's "too much". Like how drinking a glass of wine can be good for the heart, but drinking too much can make you drunk as hell and do damage to your body.

 

The study seems really interesting and I'd be interested to see some double blind human testing, but I don't think this is the same thing as saying that taking enough shrooms to illusionate is a positive and therapeutic thing we should recommend to people. Do you know what I mean?

 

Also, have you heard this podcast?

 

FDR866 Drugs

http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_866_Drugs.mp3

 

 

Hey Kevin.

 

You said you are curious about the word healing in the context of psychedelics. This is not the only study done on psychedelics concerning mental well being. It is true that after the sixties the amount of research on these subjects dropped to virtually non existing levels, which was in line with government policy on these drugs. Luckily, tides are turning and a lot of countries especially in Europe are now researching these substances again. We can thank the anthropologists. I could dig up all the research for you, if you like, concerning the seemingly positive effects of alternate state of consciences. But lets first look at the cultural and anecdotal clues. Ayahuasca is a brew made of 2 plants, which has been used for literally thousands of years by indigenous people of South America. They believed in spirit worlds where one could meet mother nature in person. In this spirit world is where the healing occurred. You might as well replace the word ''spirit world'' with ''dreaming state''. Please do not take these words literal, I do not believe in supernatural entities. If you start looking you will see that using drugs which induce alternate states of consciences are pan-epidemic, crossing different cultures. Again, we have to credit the anthropologists. There was a Dutch psychotherapist that threated holocaust survivors with LSD assisted therapy. Results where that the man could sleep without nightmares again for the first time in 30 years.  This hits home for me personally, literally and figural. People in my country don't get thrown into jail for doing such an victim less ''crime''.

 

Now let me get into some of your points. 

 

''I know people who've had very traumatic experiences of the drug, and I have tried it a half dozen times or so trying to see what all the fuss was about. I kept getting way too overwhelmed to get anything out of it, and when I wasn't overwhelmed, it was interesting with the tracers and melting wood panel, and the artificial sense of profundity. I've asked lots of people what they got out of the experience and every time it's something either super vague or completely unverifiable. So, I remain skeptical.''

 

People can indeed, have traumatic experiences from these drugs. Environment, state of mind, and dose are factors which are so fucking important. We should treat these substances as we treat other controlled and regulated substances now. This will greatly improve the positivity that can be attained trough psychedelic assisted therapy for the most broken amongst us. 

I indeed, always focus on the melting wood panel and alike, one doesn't actually have to think about the atrocities one has been trough to help them overcome it. When you take these kind of substances it required a great amount of courage. Not initially, the ''hey i am dropping some acid guise'' part, but the part which comes after - the total surrender of ones mind. The studies done on psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms and alike, show that people strengthen ''positive'' personality traits like openness. This only occurs when people go trough 2 phases during their trip. The ''bad trip'' part comes first, then you surrender, ''then you reach a place where there is only love and no ego''. It saddens me that some people can't seem to break trough the first phase. You said that people will always explain these things vaguely. Well why might that be? It is because the person is trying to describe synesthesia, which is a daring task indeed. 

 

Just imagine how many people could stop using anti-depressants if they have had a successful session of psychedelic assisted therapy. 

 

I could tell so much more on this subject, but before I do that I would like to read your thoughts.

 

Edit: Listening to the podcast you linked, I already have some criticism on the way Stef uses language here. I will do that criticism in another thread when I have listened to it thoroughly. (I will invite you to the thread, I want you involved!) 

 

My thoughts- as per Mr. Rogan, that politicians should try it. More on this later.

 

I don't think if you ever used these substances and reached a state of mind which you deemed impossible, that you could ever want to be a politician. 

 

I am always reminded of this quote, as it reminds me of the ''revelations'' people describe they had on psychedelics. The revelations always bloom after the ''ego death'' , and they are almost always about love and care, a connexion between self and nature.

 

“Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what he loves.”

 

 

[Kevin Beal]

You said you are curious about the word healing in the context of psychedelics. This is not the only study done on psychedelics concerning mental well being. It is true that after the sixties the amount of research on these subjects dropped to virtually non existing levels, which was in line with government policy on these drugs. Luckily, tides are turning and a lot of countries especially in Europe are now researching these substances again. We can thank the anthropologists. I could dig up all the research for you, if you like, concerning the seemingly positive effects of alternate state of consciences. But lets first look at the cultural and anecdotal clues. Ayahuasca is a brew made of 2 plants, which has been used for literally thousands of years by indigenous people of South America. They believed in spirit worlds where one could meet mother nature in person. In this spirit world is where the healing occurred. [...]

I've also taken the active ingredient in ayahuasca NN-DMT. I am not saying the experiences weren't dramatically altered or that I didn't make strange counterintuitive connections while on these drugs. I would say though that I could have easily had any of the same thoughts and feelings sober.

 

I think an important distinction should be made here because I think two things are getting conflated: brain trauma and psychological trauma. I don't doubt that brain trauma can be changed substantially through the use of chemicals found in hallucinogenic drugs. This doesn't seem to require the altered state of consciousness from what I can tell. I hope to see it studied more and the exact parameters in which it may be helpful to people.

 

My hesitation is prescribing illegal and potentially harmful drugs to people to treat psychological issues that don't result from brain trauma, or psychological traumas which may simply come back after the brain half of the problem is treated (depression is one example).

 

Mental health problems are largely thinking problems that need to be treated by connecting deeply with all the parts of yourself and integrating them into a whole. To stop avoiding legitimate grieving, and ambivalence. By correcting the splitting of your personality along contradictory lines when you believe both sides need to be maintained. By exploring your own dissociated states and becoming connected to previously repressed information.

 

This is not something that gets fixed chemically. And that's why pharmaceuticals cannot really treat things like depression or anxiety.

 

 

I indeed, always focus on the melting wood panel and alike, one doesn't actually have to think about the atrocities one has been trough to help them overcome it. When you take these kind of substances it required a great amount of courage. Not initially, the ''hey i am dropping some acid guise'' part, but the part which comes after - the total surrender of ones mind. The studies done on psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms and alike, show that people strengthen ''positive'' personality traits like openness. This only occurs when people go trough 2 phases during their trip. The ''bad trip'' part comes first, then you surrender, ''then you reach a place where there is only love and no ego''. It saddens me that some people can't seem to break trough the first phase. You said that people will always explain these things vaguely. Well why might that be? It is because the person is trying to describe synesthesia, which is a daring task indeed. 

I've heard a lot of praise about this surrender, and the description always sounds like a broken personality, like Winston Smith at the end of 1984, or the guy from A Clockwork Orange, or some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, or that their vengeful god is love. Maybe it's just my ignorance speaking, but that scares the hell out of me and I kinda think that fear is a good thing.

 

And I'm not an expert on psychology, but I'm pretty sure the conscious ego that has a clear sense of self and location and judgment and all the rest is a pretty important thing. But you can get that feeling, it sounds like, from great sex with someone you love, no potentially dangerous drug necessary.

 

And no, it's not synesthesia. I've had that. And it is almost impossible to describe (and interestingly babies have it and future generations will likely have it). What people always tell me is that they have realizations, beliefs formed by the experience that they couldn't get without the drug. That they achieve some amount of enlightenment and see the world in a superior way which is more true. But so often these brilliant connections are complete nonsense like the people who say that reality isn't real, or the south americans who get absorbed back into the earth mother. But more often than that, people can't really seem to remember or can't explain it, and more so just remember the feeling of having profound realizations and not the actual content, which is why I think it's artificial.

 

The "aha!" can be triggered chemically, no? Especially considering the drug's activity in the hippocampus (memory).

 

I have noticed that a lot of people will claim to not need psychotherapy because they've got yoga or meditation or drugs, and while it may be the case that they are helpful in the short term, it only ever seems to be in the short term because it doesn't address the thinking problems.

[NeoCortex]

I've also....

 

(PAGING MR. BEAL)

 

I've also taken the active ingredient in ayahuasca NN-DMT. I am not saying the experiences weren't dramatically altered or that I didn't make strange counterintuitive connections while on these drugs. I would say though that I could have easily had any of the same thoughts and feelings sober.

 

 

 

 

>  I never said you didn't  . You can have the same thoughts, of course, this comes back to the point of that these substances only give you another perspective, not some kind of ancient knowledge. So yes, you can have the same thoughts - but certainly not the same experience.

 

 

 

 

I think an important distinction should be made here because I think two things are getting conflated: brain trauma and psychological trauma. I don't doubt that brain trauma can be changed substantially through the use of chemicals found in hallucinogenic drugs. This doesn't seem to require the altered state of consciousness from what I can tell. I hope to see it studied more and the exact parameters in which it may be helpful to people.

 

 

>  I would never confuse brain trauma with psychological trauma, I understand the differences very well. The link I posted in my initial post was just something I found intriguing, and I was not making the point that psychedelics cure actual ''physical'' brain trauma, I honestly do not know, although the research might imply something in that direction. I do know, and have empirical evidence of the fact that certain substances can be great mental tools, especially under professional guidance. 

 

> The fact that in most countries you can get jailed for experimenting with your own consciouses is pretty psychotic, indeed. So for people in those borders it it wise to take this into consideration when you take these drugs, absolutely agreed. Lets not look at man made rules, shove the law out of its way. Literally keeping fear out of the discussion. Let's look at the evidence suggesting that under the right circumstances these things have tremendous '''healing powers'' for victims of violence. There is a lot of anecdotal and empirical evidence. I think we've reached a point which is relatively (it'salwaysrelative) close to the metaphorical ''bullseye'' of knowledge; this shit works when you apply what we have learned from experimenting and evaluating these substances. This gained knowledge will not attribute to greater drug abuse, which is something we all want to prevent. If we learn people how to correctly use which I consider to be mental tools [entheogenics], they will be of more value. I am not talking about the popularity of said drugs. If I would go off and sell cocaine on the Internet right now, I would not actually increase the demand for it would I? I would fill the hole which is known as demand. Obviously this is only correct when I do not advertise my operation in any way (including friends and all other logical things..). Yes you could say that offering any good increases the demand for it in some way, but come'on. 

 

And let me be clear; we would not actually hand people a few grams of magic mushrooms with a note attached how they should be consumed after a simple doctor visit.. They are tools which can be used by the patient with an professional trained, empirical, rational psychologist to guide him. This could be considered modern, empirical Western Shamanism. The inducing of feelings, an journey trough our subconscious. Iraq veterans suffering from PTSD where given MDMA with significant results. Sometimes you just have to feel something which you did not feel for a long time, to help you get over your trauma. ​Or to think about the trauma consciously, without it hurting so much. Once again it is the experience that matters, the feelies. And whether these feelings where ''made'' by drugs, while they could also be attained without, is obviously correct. But does it matter? Wouldn't we want to heal the extreme traumatized, even it the feelings where made by drugs? We want to cure cancer right, even if the medicine/drugs helped them? Do we stick a band-aid to a kid with a small cut in his finger, while we might as well let the body do its thing? To me this point is totally futile. 

 

 

Mental health problems are largely thinking problems that need to be treated by connecting deeply with all the parts of yourself and integrating them into a whole. To stop avoiding legitimate grieving, and ambivalence. By correcting the splitting of your personality along contradictory lines when you believe both sides need to be maintained. By exploring your own dissociated states and becoming connected to previously repressed information.

 

 

 

 

''By exploring your own dissociated states and becoming connected to previously repressed information''. Funny you would say this, as this is the actual mechanism of mental healing, also true for these substances.

 

 

I've heard a lot of praise about this surrender, and the description always sounds like a broken personality, like Winston Smith at the end of 1984, or the guy from A Clockwork Orange, or some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, or that their vengeful god is love. Maybe it's just my ignorance speaking, but that scares the hell out of me and I kinda think that fear is a good thing.

 

 

I feel the opposite. The ego is a fantastic evolutionary trait, it drives greatness. I say this without a hint of doubt. But the ego is also something that sometimes forces itself to the foreground, which is not something you want in each scenario. Fear is a good thing, I never proposed a false dichotomy where fear was either bad or good. But letting go of fear, which on some levels you know is irrational, is great. I know someone who is fucking afraid of butterflies... see what I am trying to convey? 

 

For me it was the fear of dying in another fire, resulted from almost dying in a fire. But it is irrational to believe that would ever happen again, and even if it did, I would probably have no control of it, hence irrational fear. Letting go of everything and descending into an ego death directly resulted in me losing my irrational fear of dying in a house fire.

 

 

 

And I'm not an expert on psychology, but I'm pretty sure the conscious ego that has a clear sense of self and location and judgment and all the rest is a pretty important thing. But you can get that feeling, it sounds like, from great sex with someone you love, no potentially dangerous drug necessary.

 

 

A lot of these things seem to relate to the dangerous act of buying and using illegal drugs. But they don't have to. I think sex with someone you love is wonderful, one of the best things I have ever experienced. You can have psychedelic experiences without ever taking ''illegal drugs'', like a session in a flotation tank. For me personally, the psychedelic experience goes on the same list as making love, having babies, seeing your child get born etc. Only because of the actual experience. And only because the experience was profound for the one experiencing it.

 

 

And no, it's not synesthesia. I've had that. And it is almost impossible to describe (and interestingly babies have it and future generations will likely have it). What people always tell me is that they have realizations, beliefs formed by the experience that they couldn't get without the drug. That they achieve some amount of enlightenment and see the world in a superior way which is more true. But so often these brilliant connections are complete nonsense like the people who say that reality isn't real, or the south americans who get absorbed back into the earth mother. But more often than that, people can't really seem to remember or can't explain it, and more so just remember the feeling of having profound realizations and not the actual content, which is why I think it's artificial.

 

 

It is partly synesthesia, partly Ideasthesia, partly other human described ideas related to the use of these substances. These are all the things that are hard to put in words and actually define any drug (esp. hallucinogenics). People always tell you that they got realizations that they couldn't get without the drug, are obviously retarded. All roads lead to Rome. They just had these realizations (we are all one, I love the world etc) on these substances, but that is not by accident. You have every right to call them artificial if you want to, but it doesn't change the effects they have.

 

 

The "aha!" can be triggered chemically, no? Especially considering the drug's activity in the hippocampus (memory).

I have noticed that a lot of people will claim to not need psychotherapy because they've got yoga or meditation or drugs, and while it may be the case that they are helpful in the short term, it only ever seems to be in the short term because it doesn't address the thinking problems.

 

 

Yes, we can also induce deja-vu's in people, does not actually change the experience of people having deja-vu's. People will always say stupid shit like they don't need all of that therapy because they got yoga or some shit. But that still does not mean that people cannot overcome a great deal of their trauma trough these methods. This argument revolves around value in certain techniques, which you or anyone else cannot really ever pin down. 

 

 

Now just some things we both agree on;

 

Points where we both agree on:

 

- The illegality of drugs enforces drug use

- No moral issues with the personal, ''not influencing other parties'', kind of drug use.

- No drugs are need to reach ''enlightenment''

- Drugs can lead to false conclusions

- Drugs do not give rise to knowledge which was not already ''somewhere in that persons brain''. 

- Pain and anxiety (emotions) are there to help you

 

 

Edit: Excuse me for the long post, I have done a great amount of research on the subject of ''drugs'', for me this also drives passion. I would also like to admit these stems from a lot of personal experience with drug use and users. My dad was an alcoholic, I have been to a lot of drug treatment centers, have been to a lot of conferences. And none of this makes my arguments stronger, I am very well aware of the authoritarian fallacy. I just wanted to inform you of my personal affinity. 

[CallMeViolet]

I have just thought drugs of any sort serve specific purposes for specific needs. I use THC to treat symptoms associated with crohns disease and mood disorders. When I was sick going through operations I used opiates to drug myself into a temporary state of physical and emotional numbness. I used THC to get away from the opiates. As I'm now using self work to get healthy completely so I do not need to rely on external chemicals.

Psychedelics I think help only in the fact they can for some people bring out beauty in the world they couldn't see because the horrors of their situation drowns it out. Sometimes that appreciation in life can drive someone to continue on and to change.

It isn't for everyone though. If you don't have good experiences I feel it's best to try other things. Like meeting better people is the best thing.

Personally I love chemicals. I will always try a psychedelic I'm aware about enough to feel comfortable taking. The guy talking about dosing and environment and state of mind is entirely correct. Also I would not suggest everyone immediately do DMT. It's a very serious psychedelic that needs to be treated as so..

My point is they CAN be helpful. It's not magic it's chemistry.

The best way to get better is something that actually fixes the situation also. So if you're souly taking drugs so you don't have to realize your reality that's a horrible situation. I'm not saying that either.

[NeoCortex]

I have just thought drugs of any sort serve specific purposes for specific needs. I use THC to treat symptoms associated with crohns disease and mood disorders. When I was sick going through operations I used opiates to drug myself into a temporary state of physical and emotional numbness. I used THC to get away from the opiates. As I'm now using self work to get healthy completely so I do not need to rely on external chemicals.Psychedelics I think help only in the fact they can for some people bring out beauty in the world they couldn't see because the horrors of their situation drowns it out. Sometimes that appreciation in life can drive someone to continue on and to change.It isn't for everyone though. If you don't have good experiences I feel it's best to try other things. Like meeting better people is the best thing.Personally I love chemicals. I will always try a psychedelic I'm aware about enough to feel comfortable taking. The guy talking about dosing and environment and state of mind is entirely correct. Also I would not suggest everyone immediately do DMT. It's a very serious psychedelic that needs to be treated as so..My point is they CAN be helpful. It's not magic it's chemistry.The best way to get better is something that actually fixes the situation also. So if you're souly taking drugs so you don't have to realize your reality that's a horrible situation. I'm not saying that either.

 

I agree with that you are saying. One thing though; it is a common misunderstanding that you either have a good or a bad trip. The real question is always how the person feels afterwards, or after a week. The best trips (with this definition I mean the most therapeutic) are the ones where you find light in the darkness i.e turning the bad trip around towards an experience which is preferable. A trip that goes from this ''darkness to light'' seems to be the actual mechanism which increases universally preferable personal properties like openness. Don't take my word for it, the research is there.

[CallMeViolet]

Yes someone as ourselves whom are open to the value understand that even a "bad" trip is a learning experience. Though if someone isn't even able to consider it's value I just think it's honestly kind of a waste for them to be convinced into doing it again.

Cause yeah my more horrifying sensations turned into interesting little happenings on psychedelics once the anxiety passes.

I think the "bad" and "good" is how I describe my general emotional state during the trip not the trip itself.

If it's how others view that terminology than they don't like it.. You don't like it don't do it until you're ready. I can't imagine you can get any true value from it unless you're aware of it's potential. It's nothing you can't find sober anyways. It isn't. It's just your mind working in an altered way..

Lol once my teeth tickled...

Not that that helped me think anything through. it was just odd. lol

[PatrickC]

There was a reason why LSD takers feared the 'Flashback'. This was a essentially a renactment of a terrifying experience. Some people never returned to their senses ever again. Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd being a case in point. So you take it at your own risk.

[NeoCortex]

There was a reason why LSD takers feared the 'Flashback'. This was a essentially a renactment of a terrifying experience. Some people never returned to their senses ever again. Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd being a case in point. So you take it at your own risk.

 

One can only use it at their own risk

 

I don't get the why's of posting such things. Everyone understands drugs can be dangerous. I don't know if you have been trough my posts here, but I admit this and also try to explain which are the positives of having a ''bad trip''. But seems like a lot of people here get violent images in their head every time they hear something about drugs. I think it has a lot to do with me living in Amsterdam and working in a nightclub for 3 years. I see people on drugs at least 4 times a week. Alcohol, MDMA, XTC, Ketamine, weed, hash, you name it. I am not defending the use of drugs, we don't need them. We truly don't. The true risk of taking these kinds of drugs is far, far below then which is generally perceived. People don't get hooked4life after using heroin once. They.generally.really.don't.This reminds me of Michio Kaku, the guy who is famous for string theory. Smart guy. He was on the Joe Rogan podcast and when Joe started to talk psychedelics, Kaku stated that magic mushrooms cause brain damage. There's no such research. This is like the old anti-weed propaganda, or the LSD makes you kill people put out by the government. Seems people always lose some rationality when talking about these subject, always drifting to the negative side of the subject. Please note, I am not condemning you personally. Just generalizing the conversations I had over the years. Does this (which to my mind, a little irrational) responses always sprout from the fact that we are actually anti-drugs? I find it interesting to talk about empirical evidence, without the fear that I am justifying the usage of the substances.

 

Also with drugs;Sedating over longer periods > badExperiencing something once > could lead to improvement of universally preferred behavior, thinking, personality traits. 

 

I'll be happy if you challenge my points. 

[PatrickC]

It's important to remind people of these dangers frankly. I have some fair experience in this area. I agree drugs rarely kill people and addiction is rare. But they can cause people to lose their minds. Sometimes this is short lived, other times it is long term and often irrepairable.

 

I took shrooms and payote for almost a decade. Frankly all I recall from that experience was pretty rainbows. Any insight I got was mostly wishful thinking and the horrors were far from pleasent or useful to me or those I saw experience similar. I'm sorry if my protest bothers you, but I think it needs to be re-iterated for those that might be thinking of using it.

[NeoCortex]

It's important to remind people of these dangers frankly. I have some fair experience in this area. I agree drugs rarely kill people and addiction is rare. But they can cause people to lose their minds. Sometimes this is short lived, other times it is long term and often irrepairable.

 

I took shrooms and payote for almost a decade. Frankly all I recall from that experience was pretty rainbows. Any insight I got was mostly wishful thinking and the horrors were far from pleasent or useful to me or those I saw experience similar. I'm sorry if my protest bothers you, but I think it needs to be re-iterated for those that might be thinking of using it.

 

It doesn't bother me at all. I just have a different view. I don't think people should be encouraged in taking drugs at all. But we should't let the fear of entheogenenic substances stand in the way of science. I just believe that the dogma that surrounds drug use and users is severely mis projected, even in these circles. The difference in environment and law is kinda a big deal.

[PatrickC]

I've never been interested in law, just reality.

[Ady Sheerer]

I went through 30 years of my life without experimenting with any drugs (except alcohol, caffeine and nicotine). At 30 I got curious and since I felt like I was mature enough to handle these experiences in a responsible manner I started what you might call an investigation.I began with THC, which I still indulge in once every couple of months, but it took me a long time to get completely comfortable in that state of mind.Next on my list was psilocybin. Before I took it I read a lot about it, watched as many videos as I could and talked to a bunch of people that have tried it. 5 years later I felt ready for that trip. It was an absolutely wonderful experience but I am sure that if I wouldn't have prepared for it or if I would have been in my teens, it would have probably scarred me for life. I carefully picked the place, the music and the company to ensure the perfect trip. I also videotaped myself for later study. I narrated my whole experience for almost 4 hours, not because there was a camera there (I forgot about it actually) but because explaining an sharing what was happening to me gave me so much joy. It was an interesting video which I reviewed many times.  Next on my list was DMT. It was about a year after the psilocybin that I felt ready. A lot of reading and watching videos of other people's experiences during that year... Unfortunately, nobody that I personally knew had tried it. Again, I prepared carefully the place, the music, the camera and the company. Although I thought I was ready I got a little anxious right before the three hits that you are supposed to take. I also didn't have a vaporizer so I did it out of a pipe. I don't think I got the full DMT trip but I got enough to get a pretty good idea. Except for the initial anxiety right before the take-off, the trip was pure bliss. What benefits did I get out of these experiences? I can't say that my mind was able to produce anything that I could use or even understand later when I got back to normal. I do know that while I was under I totally figured out the mysteries of the whole universe though. But there was one thing that especially psilocybin did for me. It helped me develop an observing ego which I was completely lacking before. During that mushroom trip I was able to step out of the fluid reality and see myself in a clear way from the outside for the very first time. I grew my observing ego in the following years without the use of drugs and today I am able to access it anytime while completely sober. This helped me a lot on my path of self exploration.Psilocybin also carved one important question in my mind which stayed with me and helped me become a much more rational person. As weird as it might sound that question was "What is your purpose?". Although I asked myself that question before, I never really gave myself an honest answer. I did manage to honestly answer that question while on that trip and later on I was able to see the difference between being honest with myself or just making excuses. (I hope this makes some sense to you )DMT did not bring many revelations, only very powerful feelings from which I couldn't seem to draw any rational understanding later. I plan on trying it again with a vaporizer and get the full experience but I don't really feel ready to do it anytime in the near future.THC helps me be more creative and I often get some really good ideas while on it. I rarely use it but when I do, I usually like to combine it with various activities. 3D movies, float trips on the river or even ice skating (oh, yeah, you read that right  ). I consider all these experiences extremely beneficial to me. I think the preparation, but most importantly the intention behind taking these substances played a huge role in the outcome of my experiences. The age was also an important factor I think. I went on these trips looking for something specific, not just for fun. That something was self knowledge and I feel that the trips were worth it. Also videotaping yourself helps a lot. I plan to try psilocybin and DMT only once more before I die but I would like to be in a different stage of my life when I'll do it.  

[AustinJames]

The study referenced here may be of interest:

 

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_2-7-2014-18-11-12

 

 

 

“What we have done in this research is begin to identify the biological basis of the reported mind expansion associated with psychedelic drugs,” said Dr Robin Carhart-Harris from the Department of Medicine, Imperial College London.  “I was fascinated to see similarities between the pattern of brain activity in a psychedelic state and the pattern of brain activity during dream sleep, especially as both involve the primitive areas of the brain linked to emotions and memory. People often describe taking psilocybin as producing a dream-like state and our findings have, for the first time, provided a physical representation for the experience in the brain.”

 

Emphasis is mine.

 

 

If dream analysis is valuable in the pursuit of self-knowledge, it's hard for me to conceive how inducing a temporary, conscious, dream-like state can be any less valuable.

[RuralRon]

For any of you interested in further research into psychoactive substances you might want to check out Jan Irvin's Gnostic Media website & podcasts, in particular the Secret of Magic Mushrooms. He gets into some of the details of his experience with DMT in Peru in earlier podcasts.

 

He has changed his perspective over the last several years, saying people should have a solid foundation of critical thinking skills before ingesting these powerful drugs. He has mentioned several times he no longer believes in their casual use.

[Kurtis]

 

 

I'm always curious about how people are using the word "healing" when talking about stuff like this.

 

 

As an example of a substance and healing experience I would like to talk about Ayahuasca.  

 

For me, this is yet another tool in my kit that helps me on my journey, along with the usual ones that the FDR community will be well aware of (therapy, journalling, dream interpretation, learning, etc).  A main healing aspect of Ayahuasca is that it is able to focus the brain specifically on early traumatic experiences (e.g. childhood abuse) but from the present day (adult) perspective, which is one that knows this trauma is in the past, and not ongoing.  This allows the brain to create a new pathway as a result of knowing that the trauma is no longer occurring. Therefore, when events trigger that early memory (e.g. a phone call from a parent) the result is no longer a re-experiencing of the initial trauma.

 

Like most psychedelics, the main work begins after the experience, in integrating it into your life.  In this example, that can be to strengthen the new neural pathways through meditation, mindfulness, life choices, behaviours, etc.  I personally have processed traumas that were from 25-30 years ago, in one weekend of ceremonies and I remain free of these traumas to this day.  These experiences are something I discuss in my therapy sessions to help with the integration.  I think I could have got there with therapy alone, but I know that it would be nowhere near this fast.  I have a female therapist and I think of my shaman as my male therapist.  In regards to Ayahuasca ceremonies, I see the exact same importance in selecting a shaman as one would in selecting a therapist.

 

Perhaps you are familiar with these ideas, or the work of Gabor Mate, but in case not (or for anyone else) then I recommend a CBC documentary that is a pretty good introduction and basic overview of these concepts:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DTEGrB5_ZE

 

To say that you have tried DMT is really in no way a comparison to an Ayahuasca ceremony.  The benefits of Ayahuasca require the ceremony (a healer/shaman and the icaros).    

 

And as always, these are tools that have worked for me and certainly are not for everyone.

[Forknight]

I agree quite a lot with Kevin, so I'll try to avoid a duplication of effort.

I personally life in a country where some of these substances are attained thought stores, legally.

 

A psilocybin [a substance found in fungus, magic mushroom and alike] induced trip I did a few years ago was a truly profound experience. At first I was very scared, which you should be. But once I let all my fears go and stopped resisting it was beautiful. I went trough a fire growing up which nearly killed me, had recurring nightmares for a little longer then a year. I never had them after said trip. Much later, one day browsing reddit, I found out that psilocybin actually had great healing powers for people suffering from PTSD. This was very intriguing to me because of my own anecdotal experience. Unsurprisingly, many other ''love drugs'' seem to do the same thing, healing very damaged individuals by temporary changing their conscience. Anyone else on this forum with experiences concerning entheogenic substances?

 

In other words, I self medicated not with amphetamines; but with something that has to power to heal you substantially in one setting.

 

 

It might actually not be the experience alone, but it might be that the substance itself repairs the physiological mutations caused by trauma.

I'd like to start out by saying that I used these substances extensively throughout my youth. LSD, Psylocin, MDMA, and many of Shulgin's PiHKAL / TiHKAL research chemicals. It certainly seemed like it was beneficial at the time, but now I think it's probably not the most productive route for attaining the self-knowledge that is really going to help you improve your life. In my experience, these substances work by confusing the brain so profoundly and flooding it with an unusually high amount of sense data that is then distorted by foreign chemicals that cause your synapses to misfire.

 

There is a well-known feeling of "spiritual transcendence" that I think comes from a combination of simultaneous suppression and hyperactivity of certain areas of the brain. I've found that since I've embraced atheism and can explain all of these feelings in a rational manner even while hallucinating, it really just makes me feel "insane" for lack of a better word. I tried a dose of Psylocin about 6 months ago for the first time in years out of curiosity and it reminded me of why I gave up on these substances. I felt the sense of "spiritual oneness" but it annoyed me because I knew it was just my brain reacting to these chemicals and acting on the parts of my brain that caused me to feel like I was having a "spiritual experience." This made the experience frustrating, stressful, and tiring for me and I just wanted it to end already.

 

You mentioned "letting your fears go" which is the mantra for beginners. I've considered this carefully over the years and I don't think it's true or useful. I think it's more about letting go of any rational objections and riding the wave of insanity until it finally stops and you can regain your ability to think straight. The other alternative is to try to cling to rationality while your brain is operating in an altered state, which anyone who has tried to do knows is very frustrating because your brain is constantly being bombarded with random data.

 

As Kevin basically stated, I would be very careful about equating taking a recreational drug with healing of any type because we're still learning about the brain and we simply don't know. I feel like all that is happening is that you're replacing a physically traumatic experience of being in a fire, with a potentially more immersive mentally traumatic experience that is more recent. Sort of like breaking a finger and then cutting off your toe to redirect the pain to your foot. Then again, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I could be wrong here as I'm just speaking about my own experience. We need YEARS of studies and then meta-analysis of those studies before we can even begin to talk about this stuff empirically.

I agree with that you are saying. One thing though; it is a common misunderstanding that you either have a good or a bad trip. The real question is always how the person feels afterwards, or after a week. The best trips (with this definition I mean the most therapeutic) are the ones where you find light in the darkness i.e turning the bad trip around towards an experience which is preferable. A trip that goes from this ''darkness to light'' seems to be the actual mechanism which increases universally preferable personal properties like openness. Don't take my word for it, the research is there.

I've had extremely bad trips before that had me curled in a corner vomiting, thinking I was dying, wishing it would just end already with another 5-6 hours on the clock. Bad trips are very real and I know that for a fact because I've experienced them more than once. They still remain highly unpleasant memories to this day, so time didn't seem to make a difference. I'd like to see whatever research you're using to support this argument.

The study referenced here may be of interest:

 

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_2-7-2014-18-11-12

 

 

Emphasis is mine.

 

 

If dream analysis is valuable in the pursuit of self-knowledge, it's hard for me to conceive how inducing a temporary, conscious, dream-like state can be any less valuable.

This is a good point. My only objection would be that dream analysis doesn't occur while you are dreaming, it occurs after the fact. Supposing for a second that a person could have the same experience in a dream that they had while hallucinating, how would the intoxicating effects of the drug cause you to describe the experience in a way that might cause your therapist to react differently? I think the dream analysis path would probably yield a more accurate result personally, but I could be wrong.

As an example of a substance and healing experience I would like to talk about Ayahuasca.

 

For me, this is yet another tool in my kit that helps me on my journey, along with the usual ones that the FDR community will be well aware of (therapy, journalling, dream interpretation, learning, etc). A main healing aspect of Ayahuasca is that it is able to focus the brain specifically on early traumatic experiences (e.g. childhood abuse) but from the present day (adult) perspective, which is one that knows this trauma is in the past, and not ongoing. This allows the brain to create a new pathway as a result of knowing that the trauma is no longer occurring. Therefore, when events trigger that early memory (e.g. a phone call from a parent) the result is no longer a re-experiencing of the initial trauma.

 

Like most psychedelics, the main work begins after the experience, in integrating it into your life. In this example, that can be to strengthen the new neural pathways through meditation, mindfulness, life choices, behaviours, etc. I personally have processed traumas that were from 25-30 years ago, in one weekend of ceremonies and I remain free of these traumas to this day. These experiences are something I discuss in my therapy sessions to help with the integration. I think I could have got there with therapy alone, but I know that it would be nowhere near this fast. I have a female therapist and I think of my shaman as my male therapist. In regards to Ayahuasca ceremonies, I see the exact same importance in selecting a shaman as one would in selecting a therapist.

 

Perhaps you are familiar with these ideas, or the work of Gabor Mate, but in case not (or for anyone else) then I recommend a CBC documentary that is a pretty good introduction and basic overview of these concepts:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DTEGrB5_ZE

 

To say that you have tried DMT is really in no way a comparison to an Ayahuasca ceremony. The benefits of Ayahuasca require the ceremony (a healer/shaman and the icaros).

 

And as always, these are tools that have worked for me and certainly are not for everyone.

Anecdotal, as most of this post is, but I know a woman who went down to one of the South American therapeutic ayahuasca camps. She had revealed to me that she was sexually abused as a child and was hoping that the ayahuasca would help her get over residual feelings she had. She went and took a crash course where they drink it every day for more than a week. They had Shamans guiding her and everything and yet, I don't think it really was a positive experience for her despite what she claims. If anything, it gave her a false sense of security that she had overcome something that she stopped looking at self-improvement altogether and declared herself "healed" by this magical plant from the rain forest.

 

My experience of her is quite different though. She is clearly a fractured and confused human being underneath it all. In the years since, she has had her children taken away from her because she abused them, she abuses her boyfriend emotionally, and she clearly is still operating on pure survival instinct, rather than any sort of philosophical basis. I can't help but wonder how different she would be if she had sought therapy instead and actually followed the advice.

 

Anyway, my verdict is that they aren't really useful for the purposes that people tend to think they're useful for. They really just seem to confuse the issue and make it more difficult to strike at effectively.

[Forknight]

For any of you interested in further research into psychoactive substances you might want to check out Jan Irvin's Gnostic Media website & podcasts, in particular the Secret of Magic Mushrooms. He gets into some of the details of his experience with DMT in Peru in earlier podcasts.

 

He has changed his perspective over the last several years, saying people should have a solid foundation of critical thinking skills before ingesting these powerful drugs. He has mentioned several times he no longer believes in their casual use.

Wasn't Jan Irvin the one who broke the story that the Psychedelic Revolution of the 60's began as MKUltra Subproject 58 in 1957? It seems strange to me that, given that information, he might imply they're a positive in any context.  I wonder about the critical thinking bit as well.  It seems to me that in order to not have a bad trip, you have to mostly abandon critical thinking because your thoughts don't tend to line up in a way that satisfies any reasonable standard of rationality.  This is why after 5 hours of intensely introspective "searching" all I end up getting onto my notepad of everlasting hallucinogenic wisdom are the words "clothes scare."

 

 

[Carl Green]

 .... I went trough a fire growing up which nearly killed me, had recurring nightmares for a little longer then a year. I never had them after said trip.

 

I'm glad to hear it helped you out like this. It would be nice of we could find out more about it altogether for sure.

 

Vice is liberal as all get-out (and blocked from my work computer or I'd link the article. I'll add the title of the piece later if you wanna search it) but I did find a recent piece about a guy using the Bufo Alvarus frog (that's probably not spelled right) and its gland secretions as an entheogen to help with addictions.

Might be worth your time to watch if you can find it.

[Forknight]

I'm glad to hear it helped you out like this. It would be nice of we could find out more about it altogether for sure.

 

Vice is liberal as all get-out (and blocked from my work computer or I'd link the article. I'll add the title of the piece later if you wanna search it) but I did find a recent piece about a guy using the Bufo Alvarus frog (that's probably not spelled right) and its gland secretions as an entheogen to help with addictions.

Might be worth your time to watch if you can find it.

Ibogaine is another that's been touted to help with addiction problems.  I remain skeptical personally.  There are other ways to get clean without having to terrify yourself half to death.  It seems to work on the principle that "I'm going to make you trip so hard and that you'll never want to touch drugs again."  That said, I know people who have tried it for heroin addiction that ended up relapsing.

[FrankHuranku]

Haha, good amount of replies.

Well, I've been all over the mental psilocybin universe with this one. I've experienced oneness, megalomania, it broke me out of the most severe depression I've had in my life, I've been in a panic in my tent at a festival, constantly switching between thinking I peed my pants feeling for wet spots on the ground, & then seeing a flash of...achem, doodoo, like right in my vivid imagination center, & finally, I rarely meditate but I meditated for over 2 hours once, wild stuff.

[Carl Green]

Ibogaine is another that's been touted to help with addiction problems.  I remain skeptical personally.  There are other ways to get clean without having to terrify yourself half to death.  It seems to work on the principle that "I'm going to make you trip so hard and that you'll never want to touch drugs again."  That said, I know people who have tried it for heroin addiction that ended up relapsing.

 

It doesn't show you the guy's whole process, but I didn't notice them mentioning anything about the substance in the Vice video intending to scare you sober. Ibogaine might, but I didn't get that impression about what Vice was covering.

 

Regardless, if it helps people, even if only temporarily, I see that as a good thing.