Grizwald Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 What do you think happens to our consciousnesses after this life? I refuse to believe that it's just nothing. That just doesn't make sense. What I've learned from objectivist epistemology (and it's very little so far) is that our conscience is separate from the universe. If that is true then while we might die in our bodies, and while we do know about the physical decomposition of bodies, we do not know about the metaphysics and what happens to our "souls." I'm only speculating about all of this but here is my logic. If in the physical world there is a cycle of matter. And if the law of conservation of matter is true, then the metaphysical world must also have a conservation law. I just lost my dog today. She was very sick all week long and it's really been stressing me out. Today she died of cancer. We got her when she was about a year old. She was an abused dog and we've been taking care of and loving her for close to 14 years. Up until now I was an agnostic. But now I just can't believe the possibility that existence has no purpose or meaning. 1 1
ParaSait Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I'm very sorry about your dog. I know that losing someone who's dear to is always painful - even if it's "only" a pet. That being said, I remember nothing in objectivism that says consciousness is separate from the physical universe. What's your source on that? All aspects of consciousness are an effect of the brain, and only the brain, which is of course an entirely physical object. There is no such thing as a soul. I'm sorry to break it to you if your view on this gives you some comfort about the loss of your dog. But this is what I think is the rational view.
higginsp Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 There is no primary Objectivist source that describes consciousness as being 'separate from the universe.' The distinction that Leonard Peikoff makes is that it would be logically contradictory to argue that volition (which emanates from consciousness) can be explained through an analysis of antecedent causes. Instead, what he says is that human consciousness must involve an uncaused cause, and that this can not be disputed as volition is epistemologically axiomatic (in the same way that Stefan argues that self-ownership cannot be denied).
Seansoup Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 Consciousness is an effect of biochemical processes in the brain. Once the brain ceases to function so does consciousness.
Alan C. Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 ...I just can't believe the possibility that existence has no purpose or meaning. I don't believe in the supernatural, yet my existence has purpose and meaning. 1
Jason K Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I've thought about this a lot as many have, and I'm afraid I probably won't be able to give you a satisfying answer. I have been thinking about a hypothesis, and I'll let anyone critique it. Death results in a new randomizing of everything possible. If anything is possible given enough time, and seeing as the passage of time won't be of any significance to me, it would seem as if anything is possible after death. What happens to me is that I will be thrown into a new randomization in the truest sense of the word. Sort of like shuffling a deck of cards after a hand of solitaire or something.
Alin Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 Do you remember how things were before you were born? That's what you'll see when you die
Jason K Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Do you remember how things were before you were born? The problem with this is that we don't remember how things were before we were born. 3
_LiveFree_ Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I'm so very so for your loss, Grizwald. The loss of a loved one is by far the worst feeling ever. It doesn't matter if it's the loss of a dog, friend, sibling, parent, partner, or even the loss if the self. I'm so sorry what you are going through. What has helped me get through those times is to think about the things I loved so much about the one who was lost. Then work to incorporate those qualities into my own self, thereby making my life a continual monument, remembrance and honoring of who they were. I have found that this greatly increase my joy overtime and the pain of loss is enveloped in a blanket of warm thanks and appreciativeness. But foremost, allow yourself to break down, lose your emotional control and just grieve the loss. I'm so sorry man. Warm wishes to you. 1
SamuelS Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I'm so sorry for your loss, Grizwald, I lost a dog to cancer a couple years ago and it's just awful. It sounds to me like that dog of yours had a great purpose in this life -- to make you happy. In my case, I got another dog rather quickly and in a lot of ways that was really helpful for coping -- it was devastating to walk in the house and be so alone -- and giving me an outlet for playfulness and affection that I don't get so much with people... I think of death like turning off a TV, there's just nothing, but that doesn't make the experience of existing any less valuable, quite the opposite. I still bawl about it sometimes, she was a great dog and didn't get to experience nearly as much life as she ought to have.
Pepin Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I still have painful thoughts about a cat of mine dying. Loved that cat. It is really just so sad when they get into the upper age range, worse when it is something like cancer. Really sorry for your loss, it must difficult to deal with. Hope you feel better.
KevinQCIL Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Because of the particulars of how our brains and senses evolved, it could be the case that there are aspects of reality that we cannot rationally comprehend or experience empirically. However, that possibility doesn't permit us to fill the unknown, or possibly unknowable, with any old thing our imaginations can concoct. The possible "unknowable unknowns" could be many and fascinating (if we could grasp them), or they may be nothing at all. I can't conceive of an individuated consciousness surviving death, and I know of no credible evidence that such is the case. So I think when we are dead, we are just dead. But, might the sum of reality be weirder and more improbable than we can even imagine? Yeah, sure. But I don't know that holding open that possibility gets us anywhere. 1
SovereignMan Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 It is something that cannot be known, unless some really profound discovery happens. I don't claim to fully grasp the concepts of string theory, super gravity, or m theory. However from the understanding I do have, there is the possibility for any number of things to be true.
J. D. Stembal Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I cried when my cat was euthanized a few years back, but I take comfort in the personal knowledge that I can choose the same for myself if I ever fall prey to a terminal illness. It doesn't make any sense to prolong suffering when it is avoidable. I was at a dinner party several weeks back and the topic of the "Rainbow Bridge" came up. I had never heard of it before so I asked for an explanation. It turns out that this is the bridge all your dead pet's souls inhabit while they are waiting for you to die and join them in the Kingdom of Heaven. I laughed and blurted out, "That's the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard!" Everyone was stunned into silence and one girl chastised me for "being a jerk" since the host's girlfriend had recently lost a dog. A lot of people made excuses and then left the party. It feels good to be the voice of reason in a world filled with delusion. As for consciousness, Hobbes discusses it in his lengthy philosophic treatise, Leviathan. Here is a link to some excerpts, relating to consciousness: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-17th/ Wthout working senses, and no material world with which to interact, we cannot be said to have consciousness after death. Why the hell would we want to live after leaving our bodies behind?
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