The morality of human shields and dealing with hostile borders

[mreyallior]

powder, don't worry, I bring Iron-Dome with me ;p

 

I didn't say "I want Israel to be free" you must have misread...

 

When I said "let's talk to Canada" I meant let's talk with the bureaucrats at the border calling themselves Canada. You as a local have surely a better chance at changing their minds or the minds that support what they're doing. Just as the Palestinians have a better chance to stop Hamas then Israelis. If I can't come to Canada because of the border police, it's not your fault, but you surely can do more than me about it.

[J-William]

I found this very disturbing

Not quite sure what you would have found disturbing about it. If you're doing something that doesn't accomplish your stated goal and you keep doing it, then you must be accomplishing some goal other than the stated goal.

 

In Israels' case they say they want peace and security. They frequently bombard and kill Palestinians to teach them a lesson, or something. So then what are they accomplishing? Bloodshed, suffering and destruction and the inculcation of hate in another generation of Arabs. Their current actions will ensure that the conflict will not end. The troubles in Northern Ireland lasted twenty years after Britain stopped heavy handed tactics to teach the Irish a "lesson".

 

The IDF knows where civilians are located. Especially if they're in hospitals, mosques or UN shelters. If they wanted to not kill civilians they could. They are not interested in peace and harmony, but punishment and murder.

 

Also... hey if someone swings a chainsaw around in a crowded room they can claim all day that they were going after some murderer or something, but that has no relevance to the people they kill and maim. 

 

Ergo the human shield line is propaganda.

 

 

Gaza conflict: Israel rejects John Kerry ceasefire

Israel's security cabinet has rejected a Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry, officials say.

Mr Kerry has been pushing for a halt to 18 days of fighting between Israel and Islamist group Hamas.

An Israeli official told Reuters that the cabinet wanted changes to the agreement before ending the offensive.

 

oops, looks like Israel rejected a temporary peace deal. I guess that means Hamas will now be justified in killing several hundred Israeli civilians.

[powder]

powder, don't worry, I bring Iron-Dome with me ;p

 

I didn't say "I want Israel to be free" you must have misread...

 

When I said "let's talk to Canada" I meant let's talk with the bureaucrats at the border calling themselves Canada. You as a local have surely a better chance at changing their minds or the minds that support what they're doing. Just as the Palestinians have a better chance to stop Hamas then Israelis. If I can't come to Canada because of the border police, it's not your fault, but you surely can do more than me about it.

the crap going on in your part of the world is horrific, but certainly nothing new, that is what states and governing bodies have been doing for thousands of years.  It is not about the people.  

 

Sorry, I don't make appeals to people who think they have authority to rule.  I really do wish you all the best with whatever you are able to do to make your life more peaceful.  

[Heam]

JamesP,

What name-calling? Pointing out lies and the people who spew them out and calling them barefaced liars?

 

How come you have a problem with my dishonesty, but not with Waleeds?

 

You didn't seem to care that member Agalloch called me "retard", or that Waleed called my ideas "projection from Israeli shills", or the straw-man ad-hominem by J-William "he's here for some sort of emotional thing to do with his religion"

 

J-William and Waleed have been caught lying barefaced. They keep flooding the thread in hopes to minimize the weight and visibility their lies. If you care about dishonesty, please ask them to stop.

 

Both Waleed and J-William are pulling a Red Herring in this thread, by asking whether it's horrible that babies die, rather then who's to blame?

 

 

To all the other hypocrites [pick your own politically correct, forum-guidelines-appropriate term] that still blame Israelis for not allowing people in Gaza to enter Israel freely... I have a challenge.. better then the previous one! Please wear a t-shirt that says "I'm proud to be gay" and take a walk around Gaza. Take your own medicine before suggesting it to me. Ok? I'm not advocating for democracy (a-la "the only democracy in the middle east" BS), I just don't want to see public executions where I live.

Sorry buddy, you don't get to call me a liar repeatedly and get away with it. You've long since reached the point of simply flinging shit at every user who disagrees with you, and dumping a bunch of YouTube videos with zero accompanying discussion of their intellectual content (not that there was any) doesn't fly as proof of your claims. If somebody took the time to make an actual argument, you don't get to substitute a reply by dismissing the opposition as liars, then posting 10 YouTube videos in rapid succession as if they are in any way addressing the contrary claims to your narrative. You're attempting to pretend I don't exist by having me argue against YouTube videos instead of arguing against you. I take this to mean that my posts and the others which you've lambasted repeatedly as "lies" are creating extreme anxiety in you; to the point where you're now in shill-bot overdrive mode.

 

RE "flooding": you have more posts in this thread and less intellectual content provided than any user here. There's nobody here other than you who's flooding the forum with links to propaganda smut that looks, sounds, and argues like it was crafted in a basement by an intern at Shin Bet's Negev Desert offices. It's gotten to the point where your posts are essentially pollution.

[jacbot]

Not quite sure what you would have found disturbing about it.

 

clear footage showing hooded men using kids (13-14 year old at gunpoint) as meat shields in street combat is disturbing to me personally.  You claim it is not disturbing to you , this is not good.

 

You Claimed Stalinist Russia/USSR fighting nazi invasion was "citizen self defense", ( Note: Surrender or retreat of Russian Soldiers invited extermination of family members by the Tjekka ) but somehow Poland defening against nazi invasion is glossed over as not valid.

 

I think this ( your WWII remark) is a clear case of a moral compass not working.

 

 

The troubles in Northern Ireland lasted twenty years after Britain stopped heavy handed tactics to teach the Irish a "lesson".

 

This is made up nonsense, the IRA was heavily funded by Americans who identified themselves with the Irish cause and Identity. After 9-11. The US government made financially supporting organisations on the terrorist-list a criminal offense (this included the IRA).  Basicly IRA funding dried up. Also after 9-11,. politicians identifying themselves with the Irish cause couldnt sell their allegiance to the American public.

 

From the horses mouth:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/how-911-gave-the-ira-an-exit-route-from-war-28654323.html

On October 18, just six weeks after 9/11, the IRA began destroying its weaponry with barely a peep of protest from its rank-and-file. Fear of isolation had done the trick.

 

Wow, check out this poll: link Younger american, non-whites, are less likely to support Israel.. also more educated people and people who watch more news are more likely to support Israels' actions. aka propaganda works!

 

You do realize that you actually are saying: "Younger, American non-whites" are on average not well educated.

[J-William]

 

What name-calling? Pointing out lies and the people who spew them out and calling them barefaced liars?

 

...snipped cuz it's kinda long...

Both Waleed and J-William are pulling a Red Herring in this thread, by asking whether it's horrible that babies die, rather then who's to blame?

 

This right here is thee best part of the thread!

First off I'm glad that I'm a liar and I love palestine so much I can't keep my head on straight (if you'll take a glance at my picture over on the left you'll see I'd fit right in there).

 

 

 

better then the previous one! Please wear a t-shirt that says "I'm proud to be gay" and take a walk around Gaza. 

You changed your T-shirt example. Is that because of incidents like this where Palestinians are getting beat up just for being Arab?

 

 

Two Palestinians reportedly assaulted by Jewish mob in Jerusalem

Two Palestinian youths were reportedly assaulted by a Jewish mob in Jerusalem on Friday evening.

The two were seriously wounded, and were hospitalized in the Hadassah University Hospital, Ein Karem in Jerusalem.

The two, Amir Shwiki and Samer Mahfouz, both 20-year-old and from Beit Khanina, were walking to a Light Rail station after the Ramadan dinner to look for Shwiki's worker ID when they were attacked.

"A man came from the direction of Neve Ya'akov (a Jerusalem neighborhood)," Mahfouz told Haaretz. "He said give me a cigarette. I told him I don't have any, and he heard I'm Arab and went away, coming back with his friends, maybe 12 people. They had sticks and iron bars and they hit us over the head," he said.

Or are those just more lies?

 

You do realize that you actually are saying: "Younger, American non-whites" are on average not well educated.

I'm fully aware of that fact. I'm reporting on what others have found out.

I'm confused as to why you would even mention that. The fact itself isn't new or a focus of the survey I linked to. 

[jacbot]

I'm fully aware of that fact. I'm reporting on what others have found out.

I'm confused as to why you would even mention that. The fact itself isn't new or a focus of the survey I linked to. 

 

I dont see why their skincolor is relevant.. for being anti or pro-israel.  Or even why you see it as beneficial for colored people on average are not well educated (as they are less likely to support israel?)))))

 

Anyway...., the next point is just weird,..,lack of education (what kind?)  makes for critical thinkes?))))

[PGP]

Hi, my second post!!!

Hi to everyone.

I had a curious notion the other day on the issue of human shields in the context of the Palestine war.

I will lay it out and I welcome critique.

Firstly, some groundwork on the situation.

It has been said that Hamas uses human shields in Gaza, siting rockets and other munitions in or near residential areas and schools, hospitals etc. Let us assume that this is their intention, to use the death of the civilians through provoked attacks to garner international attention and put pressure on israel etc.

Hamas is the elected admin of Gaza, so I think it is safe to venture that the Gazans approve of this tactic in achieving the common aims of Hamas including the destruction of the state of israel.

 

Israel was founded as a zionist ideal. A homeland for people of the jewish religion with a justification for location in Palestine based on biblical and other text. It has been proclaimed as a jewish state in recent times by the gov of israel and the legal status of non-jews in israel seems differential to that of jews. Throughout the history of israel, the gov has expanded the geographic extent of the state in the face of aggression from neighbouring states including Egypt, Lebanon etc.

In recent times (carrying on the practice from the est of the state) there have been a number of settlements in the West bank in actions that are illegal even under the Oslo accord that israel agreed to. 

Israel has never established or set out final settled borders since it's creation.

 

In this context, I think it is fair to say that est settlements in the West Bank (and previously Gaza) with jews is by very definition placing these jews in danger of attack from Hamas and other forces such as Hezbollah. As a people, Palestinians believe they are justified in attacking these illegal settlements. This is resistance of an occupying force from their perspective.

 

So, the question here. Is there a strong or indeed direct equivalency between the above accepted Hamas action of using human shields and the israeli action of settling illegally in the West Bank?

Hamas uses human shields in this context to further their aims.

Israel uses settlements to further their zionist aims and objectives, otherwise why would they do it?

In the most recent and continuing escalation, the murder of three israeli teens from a settlement was, I think it is fair to say, utilised as a justification and rallying cry for retaliation if the media coverage in israel and elsewhere is anything to go by. An example of this is Bibi Netanyahu and his appeal for vengeance referring to jewish texts.

 

So, is israel using attacks on jews (that it, and the individuals involved, many as recent immigrants from Russia etc) has placed in danger as a justification of military and other intervention?

If so, is this not the use of human shields to further the zionist ideal and agenda?

 

Open question.

[jacbot]

I will think the most important question should be is.

 

Why do people/mainstream/ care about Isreal so much in contrast to say.....  tutsi/hutu conflict?  800.000 dead? or Chechen/Russian conflict or.... <fill in talking point>.

 

I mean, its bad and all that, but why the special attention?

 

I dont think a thread covering another conflict would gather the amount of pagebending post or votedowns/voteups as this one.

[labmath2]

read the first part of this Wikipedia entry explaining what happened in the 20th century that is the ongoing war between Hamas and Israel today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

 

It seems even the UN was part of the problem.

[J-William]

I just found a wonderful article for anyone still reading this thread.

 

 

 

Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked

 

 

This talking point is perhaps most relevant to the current thread..

 

5) Hamas hides its weapons in homes, mosques and schools and uses human shields.

This is arguably one of Israel's most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools, the schools were empty. UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.

International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true. It attributed the high death toll in Israel's 2006 war on Lebanon to Israel's indiscriminate attacks. Human Rights Watch notes:

 

The evidence Human Rights Watch uncovered in its on-the-ground investigations refutes [israel's] argument…we found strong evidence that Hezbollah stored most of its rockets in bunkers and weapon storage facilities located in uninhabited fields and valleys, that in the vast majority of cases Hezbollah fighters left populated civilian areas as soon as the fighting started, and that Hezbollah fired the vast majority of its rockets from pre-prepared positions outside villages.

In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel's incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

Even assuming that Israel's claims were plausible, humanitarian law obligates Israel to avoid civilian casualties that "would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated." A belligerent force must verify whether civilian or civilian infrastructure qualifies as a military objective. In the case of doubt, "whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used."

In the over thee weeks of its military operation, Israel has demolished 3,175 homes, at least a dozen with families inside; destroyed five hospitals and six clinics; partially damaged sixty-four mosques and two churches; partially to completely destroyed eight government ministries; injured 4,620; and killed over 700 Palestinians. At plain sight, these numbers indicate Israel's egregious violations of humanitarian law, ones that amount to war crimes.

Beyond the body count and reference to law, which is a product of power, the question to ask is, What is Israel's end goal? What if Hamas and Islamic Jihad dug tunnels beneath the entirety of the Gaza Strip—they clearly did not, but let us assume they did for the sake of argument. According to Israel's logic, all of Gaza's 1.8 million Palestinians are therefore human shields for being born Palestinian in Gaza. The solution is to destroy the 360-kilometer square strip of land and to expect a watching world to accept this catastrophic loss as incidental. This is possible only by framing and accepting the dehumanization of Palestinian life. Despite the absurdity of this proposal, it is precisely what Israeli society is urging its military leadership to do. Israel cannot bomb Palestinians into submission, and it certainly cannot bomb them into peace.

[jacbot]

Well terrorist organisations target civillians, why would Hamas, be different then say,, NRA, VietCong,..,Al Quada, ISIS... Che Geverra.

 

I would not make the argument palestinians = Hamas...  some would, but most will not.

 

In my old country there was a poll made by a leftist-liberal newspaper (trouw.nl) and even after the beheading youtube videos, mass executions of ISIS were posted on youtube. 73% of Dutch muslims were sympethetic to ISIS cause.

 

These are mostly 3rd generation muslim immigrants....,

 

To put things into perspective 100-73 = 28% of muslim immigrants was NOT supportive of ISIS,...,  I think its about the same order of magnatude as the percentage of Americans (34%) thinking Iraque invasion was injust.

 

So I will tend to support the argument that most people are  just tribal cliche monkeys who will march in lockstep and take orders of whoever (and this will be human shields, or suicide bombers, or cannon fodder in general) is viewed as having moral authority.

[Jer]

If you know somebody is shooting at you and force an innocent in the path of a bullet it's murder. If you know an innocent is between you and your target and pull the trigger anyway it's murder.

[OzTrAlien]

Well terrorist organisations target civillians, why would Hamas, be different then say,, NRA, VietCong,..,Al Quada, ISIS... Che Geverra.

 

The difference is Hamas was the Legitimately elected government of Gaza,  just as is the current Poroshenko government of Ukraine, no matter how illegitimate or legitimate both might be seen, Hamas is not a "terrorist organisation" as it is so often referred to as to undermine its legitimacy and its right to protect the people it was chosen by to serve. 

 

please watch :  http://youtu.be/hSPAm-ZWBAQ "The Blood of Palestine is on the Hands of the Bribe-Takers"  

[jacbot]

The difference is Hamas was the Legitimately elected government of Gaza,

 

I am ancap,.., "legitamate government" means as much to me as "pink fairytale unicorn dust".

 

"..no matter how illegitimate or legitimate both might be seen"

Ukraine has nothing to do with this and is strawman to this discussion.

 

"..Hamas is not a "terrorist organisation" as it is so often referred to as to undermine its legitimacy and its right to protect the people.."

Oh wait,..., now legitamcy does matter? contradiction!

 

Hamas being a "legitamate government" obsolve Hamas from culbability in targetting civilians?

 

It would be nice if you apply the same rule to the US government and the shear fact of being elected gives them the right do drone civilians or use depleted uranium or  cause 500k death by embargo,

I am sure you will use the same moral standard and call this all "righteous self defense of the American people".

[OzTrAlien]

Unfortunately jacbot, you have totally missed the meaning and the intention of what i presented,  

 

I tried to help by correcting the contextual view you used of Hamas being a "terrorist organisation" the same as those you listed it with as terrorists, by explaining Hamas is a Government, elected by the people.

 

It was hoped through expanding the view of Hamas as "terrorists" to the actuality of it being a "Government", this would enlighten you and those not aware of the distinction to gain an increased perspective as to the greater technicality and inherent complexity involved in this situation, through recognition of this distinction and classification.  

 

 

It would be nice if you apply the same rule to the US government and the shear fact of being elected gives them the right do drone civilians or use depleted uranium or  cause 500k death by embargo, I am sure you will use the same moral standard and call this all "righteous self defense of the American people".

 

It is unfortunate by misunderstanding the context of what was said, has lead to completely missing the fact i had applied the exact same rule distinction and classification of your concerns towards the US, to Hamas, which i had chosen to express in a simpler form with the use of Ukraine, maybe in doing so was my mistake which lead you to not see what was meant, which you chose to portray in the light of "strawman".  Possibly i should have used a greater amount of expression and presented the view through the inclusion of the Government of the US, GB, AUST, ISRAEL, CHINA, MALAYSIA, IRAN or of your own nation and every other nations elected or unelected government, no matter how illegitimate or legitimate the view applied of their claim to rule govern or decide what said nations people must adhere or comply to in any form.

 

Given the current applied and somewhat accepted interactions of Nations between each other, is derived and conducted through each Nations Government, representatives in respect to each Nation, not by free individuals or the "people" of the Nation in person with respect to their individual desires thoughts or aspirations, in recognition of this being the current structure and for now, TURE form, of how situations are handled, your stance of  "I am ancap,." is about as relevant as being a "rainbow colored unicorn, in pink fairytale unicorn dust land" no matter how you try to idealize it in respect of resolution in current FORM.

 

I absolve no one of their choice to harm or use force against another being, i have much empathy for those who have no choice in their current situations affected by the choices of those making the decisions which cause harm to others, i do realize change needs to be made, but i do realize one needs to have a correct view of a situation to be able to comprehend and assist in dealing with it in a manner to overcome it by not being pulled about by issues or consequences which are more relevant to distractions than recognition of the root cause in a situation.  

[LovePrevails]

no one has produced any actual evidence that Palestinians use their children as human sheilds etc.

 

this is just Israeli rhetoric to  dehumanize arabs and paint them as subhuman, which in my experience as a jew

jews love to do at every opportunity to legitimate Israel's outrageous behaviour in Palestine

[Jer]

The difference is Hamas was the Legitimately elected government of Gaza,  just as is the current Poroshenko government of Ukraine, no matter how illegitimate or legitimate both might be seen, Hamas is not a "terrorist organisation" as it is so often referred to as to undermine its legitimacy and its right to protect the people it was chosen by to serve. 

 

please watch :  http://youtu.be/hSPAm-ZWBAQ "The Blood of Palestine is on the Hands of the Bribe-Takers"  

How does an election make them not terrorists? Why do you think the distinction is important? I think the Israeli side is terrorist too fwiw.

[OzTrAlien]

Jer,  do you think there are differences in how actions and responses are handled with a distinction between a terrorist organisation like IRA or Al Qaeda and a Nation's Government? 

 

For example:  how the US attacked the terrorist organization Al Qaeda, in relation to how it handles situations and issues with Russia and the Russian Nations Government.

[jacbot]

Unfortunately jacbot, you have totally missed the meaning and the intention of what i presented,  

 

I didt miss anything , the beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name,  if you wanted to be intellectually consistant you could have said "Hamas is as much a terrorist organisation like the state of Israel" .But thats not what you said...  Anyway i will leave it at that as you seem to have explained your possision in subsequent posts.

no one has produced any actual evidence that Palestinians use their children as human sheilds etc.

this is just Israeli rhetoric

 

mmmmmmmm my youtube seems to work, maybe you should reinstall the flash plugin.?

 

iphone-HD-movie-selfies of 8 year olds sent in the streets to use kalashnikovs and fire mortergranades.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqizsl1Vx-g

[regevdl]

Oh lordy..... I have been at this for a long time, even before this particular war begun and it's exhausting and repetitive work.  I have lived in Israel for 3 years now so here I go. 

 

First: Look up Breaking the Silence and come to your own conclusions.

 

Second:  Israel propped up Hamas as a counter to Arafat.  Just as we propped up Bin Laden to counter Russia in the 80s (and subsequently many other terror organziations since then **cough cough...Syrian Rebels massacaring Christians and flooding into Iraq as ISIL*** But I digress.

 

Third:  Hamas is just as dangerous to the Palestinians as Israel so keeping score isn't helpful and only exploits the dead innocents.

 

Fourth:  While Israel 'hesitated to respond to the rockets landing in Israel, the global community to have demanded some sort of effort to evacuate as many civilians and transport them to West Bank or demand Egypt's participation or interim camps etc.  The global community failed the civilians in this way.

 

Fifth:  Gaza is about 25mi by 10 miles so the nice 'IDF text or phone call warnings' are really only to make Israelis feel good.  I have spoken to HUNDREDS of Palestinians and Gazans.  I quote, "In Gaza, living is dying".  Israel has banned school supplies, books, toys, etc to enter Gaza through Israel, so smuggling is the method of choice to get even reasonable things in Gaza and once you give them no option to smuggle, then it opens the door for more criminal/sinister things, no?

 

Also, to say, 'you have 5 minutes to evacuate your home'... and then condemning those who stay: hypocrite.  Their home will be destroyed in its entirity.  photos, keepsakes, everything.  So to just quickly decide that in 5 minutes with NO other SAFE option to go is a quick judgment and dehumanizing criticism.  

 

Should they stay in their home and risk being criticized by MSM or leave and be homeless in a WAR ZONE where they don't know where IDF will bomb next?  At least in their home, they KNOW IDF will warn them, on the streets, they have no idea who's home will be the next Hamas target, etc. 

 

Israel Is WAYYYYYYY over using the 'human shield' excuse.  I know in some cases, yes but it drastically glosses over the dynamics there as I tried to detail above.  Also, some are ready to die not for martyrdom but life there is so incredibly hopeless. There are whole areas destroyed.  where the hell can these people safely go?  I have found Israeli news AND Arab news BOTH using falsified photos and vidoes to push this war.  The 'kidnapped' solider was NEVER kidnapped, he died in a suicide bomb by Hamas that broke cease=fire...bad, yes!  But sending more troops to look for a non-missing solider is DANGEROUS and reckless.  Furthermore, last week the IDF claimed they completed their operation and was awaiting word from Netyanyahu to pull out of Gaza.  No word, no word then...oopsy..... fake kidnapped solider...better stay in.  People called out the lie and now he's finaly starting to pull out.  That's why you have to be objective and call out the truth when you see it so it protects soliders AND civilians.  

 

Also there was a time when some Gazan boys were playing soccer on the beach....they did as the IDF told them....stay out of the way and STILL two IDF missiles bombed and killed them.  the IDF admitted it was mistaken identity and the media spent all day (I'm not joking) saying repeatedly how 'well, it's a mistake...what can you do?  Afterall, people complain that IDF is not practicing precise hits and here is a clear example of a PRECISE hit.  I mean they saw the boys and only bombed that area and nothing around.  

 

This type of 'commenting' and thus public parroting back on FB and general conversations that can be seen/heard world wide IS one of the primary reasons people are questioning Israel's motives and intensity.  Like it or not, it's useful to know that, in my humble opinion because as it makes Israelis feel justified and good, to the rest of the world it really says, 'look...we make mistakes, who doesn't but even our MISTAKES are really not mistakes if you look at it 'this way.'.  it's sickening and heartless to conversate about a 'mistake' in such a way, to point out that even in the deadly error it was still done correctly.  THIS is what is pissing people off...even turning Israelis off, so just fair warning for anyone who wants to keep their head in the sand. 

 

the rockets (and one landed nearby me and my children this weekend) are NOT ballistic.  They are empty vessels.  Dangerous?  yes, but consider Israel has warning systems, bunkers on their side.  But Even IF Gaza had these warning systems, the buildings cannot obviously withstand the BALLISTIC bombs Israel is landing.  THAT is the difference people.  So Israelis say...well our gvt loves us and warns us.   Hamas doesn't warn their ppl and wastes money on tunnels rather than bunkers.  Those bunkers could not withstand the bombs anyway, so who cares about this silly argument....again...it's just a way to make Israelis feel good and gloss over reality. 

 

More than 80% of Palestinians oppose Hamas and oppose violence resistance against Israel but their voices are silenced twice and they are victimized twice.  With that said, I hear so many people say 'well they voted for them'.  Remember, Israel propped up Hamas and THEN we wanted to spread our democracy and guess who they voted for!  If Israel 'legitimized' them and people voted for them..... how can we complain about the bad results!  ? lol  ALSO.....the deeper message is...if Israel propped them up AND the people voted for them, then doesn't it show that the people used Hamas as a bridge for peace with Israel?  Too bad Hamas took it to another direction but that should be a clue.  If you and I are enemies and yet we agree on a similar group to represent us, then it shows we are one step closer to working together. 

 

But to blame now the civilians is like saying the Jews voted for Hitler and 'allowed' him to do what he did and it's up to them to take over the SS.  No one could EVER get away saying something so untrue and absurd.  

 

I encourage ALL of you to visit FB pages:

Seeds of Peace

Israel loves Palestine

Palestine loves Israel

Israel loves Iran

 

to join the REAL conversations with peopleon both sides of the conflict and looking to discuss civilly and compassionately and bridge gaps.  The people there do not believe the state has the answers and have had more than enough chances and fail.  So they are taking voluntary approaches to peace among citizens.  Please, I urge you to participate! 

 

Thanks everyone.  

[regevdl]

Jacobt: the bottom video you posted is not Hammas. It's the Syrian rebels the US is funding. The exact video was posted in February or March 2014 from Syria.

[jacbot]

Jacobt: the bottom video you posted is not Hammas. It's the Syrian rebels the US is funding. The exact video was posted in February or March 2014 from Syria.

 

Ah good,.., it seems jihadist will only use kids when the US is funding them,,,,,.anyway,,,. i will check source as the translation purely states "kids as human shields"  ... i agree  "kids as combatants" would be more accurate in this case.

 

Israel Is WAYYYYYYY over using the 'human shield' excuse

wot? The video showing a 9 year old (orso) kid sent out in the street with a K47 while the adult hids behind a corner is .....mmm not a human shield? or also also not HAMAS? (embedded in the video)?

 

More than 80% of Palestinians oppose Hamas and oppose violence resistance against Israel.

80% is double majority and HAMAS won the election so this 80% is highly unlikely, you have a link of the source?

 

Israel has banned school supplies, books, toys, etc to enter Gaza through Israel, s

Excuse me, my brain doesnt register this as even remotely rational.

 

1)Warzone=> first priority is food

2)existing books and toys just evaporated when the 1st bombs fell?

3)books and toys are a priority in a war?

[JohnH.]

Ah good,.., it seems jihadist will only use kids when the US is funding them,,,,,.anyway,,,. i will check source as the translation purely states "kids as human shields"  ... i agree  "kids as combatants" would be more accurate in this case.

 

Israel Is WAYYYYYYY over using the 'human shield' excuse

wot? The video showing a 9 year old (orso) kid sent out in the street with a K47 while the adult hids behind a corner is .....mmm not a human shield? or also also not HAMAS? (embedded in the video)?

 

More than 80% of Palestinians oppose Hamas and oppose violence resistance against Israel.

80% is double majority and HAMAS won the election so this 80% is highly unlikely, you have a link of the source?

 

Israel has banned school supplies, books, toys, etc to enter Gaza through Israel, s

Excuse me, my brain doesnt register this as even remotely rational.

 

1)Warzone=> first priority is food

2)existing books and toys just evaporated when the 1st bombs fell?

3)books and toys are a priority in a war?

 

Well now hold on.  Are you posting videos without verifying what they are showing?  You said it was a video of Hamas using children as shields but it turns out it's a video from Syria.  Are you searching for the truth or simply trying to confirm a bias?

[jacbot]

Well now hold on.  Are you posting videos without verifying what they are showing?

 

"Videos" is plural, maybe read more carefully? A claim was made that one of the 2 videos was about Serya.., the person making the claim doesnt speak Arabic but somehow she is speaking the truth? thats weird, as an extra curtisy I am having an arabic speaking person look at the video.

 

"...Are you searching for the truth or simply trying to confirm a bias?..."

wot? Complaining about palistinians having lack of toys during a war is not abnormally irrational? I dont know who is suffering from bias, but it is not me.

 

HAMAS are good honerable people because Israeli are using heavy handed tactics...and we all know crazy religeous wackos would never do things like human shielding , using children as selfsuicide devices, and what not. riiight?

 

I dont think CGI was employed to make these vidoes.

[JohnH.]

"Videos" is plural, maybe read more carefully? A claim was made that one of the 2 videos was about Serya.., the person making the claim doesnt speak Arabic but somehow she is speaking the truth? thats weird, as an extra curtisy I am having an arabic speaking person look at the video.

 

 

I removed the nonsense.  Why are you having an Arabic speaking person look at the video?  Is it because you posted it without knowing what was going on in it in the first place?

[jacbot]

I removed the nonsense.  Why are you having an Arabic speaking person look at the video?  Is it because you posted it without knowing what was going on in it in the first place?

I dont see how making shit up about IDL or siding with HAMAS suiciders is helpfull.

The person (making the claim ONE of the vid is invalid) wich is i think total bullshit claim, is the same one making shit up on how bad IDF is because kids cant get acces to (literal quote)"toys","books", (seriously) during a warzone!

 

I dont think the jewish libertarian site i got the links from is dishonest.

So trying to move beyond "yes I am right"/"no you are wrong" statement is helpfull,..,but i guess you need to play silly attempts at shaming tactics. If you have telepathic ability about what is factual and what is not, please give me something usefull, like tomorrows oil price.

 

Added: I got back from site owner ...,It seems they confused one muslim terrorist group with another. Can happen!

[regevdl]

Ah good,.., it seems jihadist will only use kids when the US is funding them,,,,,.anyway,,,. i will check source as the translation purely states "kids as human shields"  ... i agree  "kids as combatants" would be more accurate in this case.

 

Israel Is WAYYYYYYY over using the 'human shield' excuse

wot? The video showing a 9 year old (orso) kid sent out in the street with a K47 while the adult hids behind a corner is .....mmm not a human shield? or also also not HAMAS? (embedded in the video)?

 

More than 80% of Palestinians oppose Hamas and oppose violence resistance against Israel.

80% is double majority and HAMAS won the election so this 80% is highly unlikely, you have a link of the source?

 

Israel has banned school supplies, books, toys, etc to enter Gaza through Israel, s

Excuse me, my brain doesnt register this as even remotely rational.

 

1)Warzone=> first priority is food

2)existing books and toys just evaporated when the 1st bombs fell?

3)books and toys are a priority in a war?

 

 

FEBRUARY 2014, Syria:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH3a87_29Lo

You passed it off as current-day Gaza.  

 

If you speak to Palestinians in Israel, in Gaza, In West Bank and abroad, you will get a better understanding of what's going on there than any MSM sources. But Will provide the sources I have found. Also, yes.  you failed to read or quote the other dynamics going on in this postage-stamp size area that is bombarded by huge ballistic bombs, so no....not all are being used as human shields and yet the ONLY thing you hear to 'excuse' the deaths are 'human shields'.  It's not accurate and I feel it's only fair and truthful to give all the explainations (not justifications) of how/why so many people are dying.  So feel free to argue while looking down a straw-scope but it will not solve anything in the long run. 

 

We are farmers and one of our clients who buys our produce is from Gaza and has been doing business with us and other farmers for many years.  He recently was in contact to continue business but now is nowhere to be found.  Some Israelis genuinely have concern for Gazans.  Before Israel left Gaza, many civilians worked in Israel with Israeli farmers and became very close.  When they closed the border and removed settlements and troops, those people slowly lost contact and I know more Israelis who live on the border who fled their villages more than a month ago who are more concerned about Gazans than themselves.  But I'm sorry I don't have a CNN, FOX, ALJazeera article to validate that fact.  

 

This was a Reuters source but for some reason I could not find it but the JPost picked up the story.  (keep in mind the Israeli media is ALL filtered and screened by the IDF.  There are 2 news major news  in Israel which are on gvt-owned channels.  There is a military radio station which gives the 'war' updates.  

 

Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians (since they receive brunt of blowback).  They won the election because Israel propped them up and then we gave the M.E. democracy.  But that was more than a decade ago and have you ever researched any recent data on the topic or just go off of 10 yr old information?  http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hamas-continues-to-lose-popularity-among-Palestinians-309372

 

The Israeli bans have been going on for years....before this particular war.  So could you agree that making it difficult for these 'non priority' things to even enter makes life a bit more dismal and more suceptible for violent outrage or grievance against the country who controls the border?.  http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/amira-hass-israel-bans-books-music-and-clothes-from-entering-gaza-1.276147

 

 

Well, you already posted  a video of a man shooting a mortar in front of kids, claiming it was in Gaza and that is false so you must prove that your other video is indeed in Gaza.  you only have about 50% credibility. The fact that 'your brain doesn't register that as even remotely rational' does not prove it is false.  Again...losing credibility while disagreeing yet not providing counter evidence.  Hamas usually has the signature green flag/band/scarf. Of course, I am sure some are fighting w/out these but you have no way of identifying if this is in Syria, Iraq, Gaza or otherwise.  Even PALESTINIANS think this is in Gaza and your 2nd video is proven to be out of Syria. See how in the video proven to be in Syria, the rebel fighter (US funded) is wearing all black and in your other video you are still sure is in Gaza...they too are wearing all black and usually Hamas....when on video ALWAYS covers their face and usually has their green scarves/bandanas/flags.  This man is wearing 'winter' clothes, it's freaking hot in Israel if you are unaware.  It's desert and Gaza in in the southern part of Mediterranian and borders Egypt, so clearly, this is not current day or remotely relevant to the type of clothing you typically see Hamas wearing.  you have to know the enemy to actually identify them, friend. 

 

These men have no identifying emblem and why this video is convenient and can me labeled for anyone for any reason.  I do not AGREE with them doing this...don't twist my words, but unless you can prove this is Hamas, then you have no counter argument.  This could easily be in Syria or Iraq or anywhere where other radicalists are wreaking havoc on innocent civilians.  Furthermore, prove that this is currently happening.  Show me proof that this is relevant to today.  I see so many videos that appear to be 5-10 years old.  Not good, but times have changed, you have to keep up with the ebb and flow of ACTUAL people in these societies to know what is remotely happening.  Watching recycled videos that have no context of where, who and when serves no purpose. Can you distinguish Arabic accents from Gaza or Palestine from Syria from Iraq or from other Arab nations to validate this video and what they are saying?  Can I simply post a video of the SS military executing prisoners and tell people this is Germany in terms of today's dynamics?  Where's the cut off?  Can I post videos of KKK 20 years ago and push an agenda that America needs to wipe out KKK incursion?  No, times have changed.  Can I post a video of Rodney King or OJ Simpson riots and convince the world this is relevant to today's problems in America?  Can I do a mashup video montage of all the domestic bombings in the US and play it off as if this is a regular occurence in the US?   Absurd. 

 

Even during the war, water and food had been slowed or stopped (I don't know the reasons exactly if deliberately or tactically more difficult or what) but the fact is, some people (including many children) went days without clean water and food, some reports in certain, harder hit areas that children went more than a week without these necessities, they were drinking dirty/contaminated water.  Again, don't take my word for it.  Go to these facebook sites yourself and TALK to the people directly and hear their experiences.  If you don't believe them, tell them that and provide evidence so they will believe you that what they are experiencing is false.  

 

 

 

[jacbot]

I posted a correction,.., as i am interested in facts instead of stupid ego games.

 

Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians (since they receive brunt of blowback).

 

Didnt Obama recently give 400 million to Hamas? I think it seemed fair since Israel receives 3 billion in aid.

Anyway.

Yep,, pain resulting from bad decisions tends to make people think!

I dont think there is room for any good alternative in any election if the 2 major players in an election are PLO and HAMAS.

Its like choosing between Stalin and Hitler. (paraphrasing).

How you can twist this around to be Israels fault is funny...

 

Why excuse arabs for making a stupid decision in an election and not holding them to the same standards of accountability as jews? Because they are ....non-white? You see this alot with liberals...regarding colored people as subhuman not able to be held accountable at the same moral-standards with regard to choices they make.  It would be nice if the moral standard metric was the same for both cases... not seeing much of it here though.

 

posted  a video of a man shooting a mortar in front of kids, claiming it was in Gaza and that is false so you must prove that your other video is indeed in Gaza

 

Why are you being dishonest?

 

1) The man didnt shoot the morter

2) the kids pulled the wire firing the granade.

 

3) I posted 2 videos, and posted a rebuttel for the second one as it seemed to be another terrorist group (not HAMAS).

 

4)the one with the girl shooting an AK47 in streetcombat must be factual since you try your best to avoid mentioning it.

[regevdl]

I'm not making this Israel's fault anymore than aiding Bin Laden in the 80s brought him back to us on 9/11.....  so take it how you want.  Sometimes the blowback of bad policies can take a decade or more, we just need to admit it and move on and stop using those policies. So far, I haven't heard anyone openly admit this is 'how we got here'.  And so far we continue to use the same 'enemy of my enemy is my friend'... Israel isn't complaining about aiding these Syrian Rebels who are proven to have Muslim Brotherhood and Al Queda infiltrates!  We see they turned into ISIS and are slaughtering Christians in Syria and Iraq.  How am I excusing this if I am calling for global admission that this aiding of these unknown rebels is terrible?!  

 

Check out Breaking the Silence and then talk to me about moral standards on both sides.  

 

ROFL!  What?  The man shooting the mortar ---I apologize....the kids pulled the wire.  overall point: it wasn't in Gaza, it wasn't Hamas, it's Syrian Rebels in Syria whom the US is funding and I do NOT excuse that I am trying to educate and stop it. Seriously.... you posted the video on a topic geared about Hamas and Israel and your argument is who pulled the wire and NOT that this is falsely representated as Hamas? 

 

Look, I am in no way trying to make Hamas look innocent.  I know that's a convenient spin on people who are after accuracy.  But I don't believe in 'trumping up' and 'fogging up' facts and reality.  If Hamas is doing these terrible things, then it should be very easy to provide evidence.  but so far, you and many others provide obscure and clearly falsified videos that are of another terror group in another part of the world, possibly at a different time period. 

 

What do you mean I am avoiding the 1st video? The video is titled 'hamas war crimes'.    I said, it's terrible any group would do this.  Avoiding?  Excusing?  Show me proof it's Hamas and we will discuss from there, the point is that your 2nd video is not Hamas, so I am not going to quickly assume your first video IS Hamas as you have not shown me solid facts.  that is not avoiding.

 

.  My observations  is that it is in Syria and the rebels who the US is FUNDING.....TERRIBLE!!!  Even worse!  How is that avoiding exactly?  You need to prove to me that this is Hamas.  Either way it needs to stop, but if you say it's Hamas but it's actually in Syria, then our approach to solving the problem if we have misidentified them would be irrelevant.  It's like saying the bank robber is wearing a black shirt but actually was wearing a green shirt.... we would be chasing and punishing someone in black shirt and thinking we solved the bank robbery.  

 

Who are we funding in Syria that will be the Next Bin Laden or cross over into Israel?  No one knows but obviously the public doesn't want to speak up about these bad policies to stop them...only cry when the blowback occurs.    

 

I agree...they had a voting decision between a poop sandwich and spoiled eggs, neither will bring anything good.

 

I am not excusing Arabs for making bad decisions anymore than I am excusing ISrael for participating in that bad decision anymore than I am excusing the US for their bad policies and decisions. I don't think 1800 civilians should die and more than 10,000 injured on a 'bad election decision'.  That means universally that should be applied to AMericans for the illegal Iraq war, no?  that was US war crime terrorism and illegal occupation that we voted for since we voted for Bush or he won by a majority. So I should agree that millions of American civilians should lose their lives to pay for their error? 

 

How is that not clear?  I hear a lot of people say, 'they allowed this, they voted for them, etc'.  it's like saying the jews voted for hitler and alllowed him to carry out atrocities. it's absurd.   Hamas was not as radicalized back then.  and they used violence and intimidation so to treat it as if this was fully voluntary and compliant among the civilians is an exaggeration of the reality.  

 

 

Look, what Hamas is doing is terrible.  But also, you cannot bury your head in the sand when Israels in Sderot (a village very close to Gaza and it bombarded by rockets) go outside to 'enjoy' the bombing activity and then turn around and cry that they are running for their lives and live in a holocaust situation.  You cannot be the victim and the observer at the same time.  So, if they feel putting themselves in danger is more important, that's their decision, but let me make it clear.....it doesn't help their case and if you want to 'win' the moral war, rest assure the enemy is waiting to exploit these ideas and actions that weren't very well thought out.  Just an FYI. 

[regevdl]

I do not speak Arabic but I am not also making a claim on WHO, WHEN and WHERE this video is from...you are. 

 

you asked "didn't Obama give $400million to Hamas?".  I don't know.....you are asking so you must have heard that....why don't you provide a source?

 

What I have read was that in 2009, Obama sent $400million to Palestine (not directly to Hamas, ...although I am sure some got into the hands of Hamas) to loosen embargo with Gaza (what I showed earlier that you could 'not believe' regarding banning books, toys, etc to be brought into Gaza).

 

The $3Billion we give to Israel has been going on much, much longer than this $400million that was issued as a one-time in 2009/2010 to Palestine for non-military means.  You cannot equate $3biiilion plus another $225million in MILITARY aid to $400million in humanitarian aid which provides water, food, building supplies, etc.  They are two separate issues and transactions so I am not sure what the connection is

[jacbot]

1) Seriously.... you posted the video on a topic geared about Hamas and Israel and your argument is who pulled the wire and NOT that this is falsely representated as Hamas?

 

>>You made a false claim the children were not combatants, they were used as such. rectification accepted.

 

2)the point is that your 2nd video is not Hamas,

 

>> There is no "point", When you raised the issue , i immediatly verified this israeli blog site owner because i like facts instead of siding with sick islamist, he has 10-12 videos on Hamas (child rape following the islamic tradition of "Aisha", public executions, what have you)... and I posted CORRECTION : "they got their terrorist groups mixed up".

 

 3) I hear a lot of people say, 'they allowed this, they voted for them, etc'.

100% correct for assigning responsibility to voters!

 

4) it's like saying the jews voted for hitler and alllowed him to carry out atrocities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

#facts,..,In the last free multiparty election on 5 march 1933, only 33% of the Germans voted for Adolf,.., this menas 67% of the germans DIDNT VOTE FOR HITLER! a majority of the germans never voted for hitler in free elections especially not the jews.

 

Just to head you off at the pass, I know you gonna try some revisionist excuse like the as the election of 12 November 1933,

But at this time Germany was a single party dictatorship! single party dictatorships are not democrazies (pun intended).

 

5) Hamas was not as radicalized back then.

You live in some alternative universe where Hamas didnt immediatly executed and lynched the PLO right after the election victory?

Whats your excuse? Hamas was suffering from "sudden jihad syndrome" and execution of PLO members never planned ?

[jacbot]

Pat Condell, always awesome.

[regevdl]

I never claimed that Hamas is not committing atrocities. Point out where I have encouraged, approved actions of murders and jihadists. Please. Quote the exact words that led you to believe I approve of terrorists.

 

I did show that the videos you posted, at least one, was verifiably not Hamas. Far from siding with Hamas, no?

 

Ok. So what's the solution? Carpet bomb Gaza?

I dud not say kids could not get toys in war zone. I even sourced my words! Wow. Nice reading.

 

It shows that since 2009, Israel has banned import of books toys, and other items that would make life less dismal.

 

You took that as meaning during this war. None sense. Look at exactly what I wrote on the subject and the article I sourced.

 

Good day.

[jacbot]

1) I never claimed that Hamas is not committing atrocities.Point out where I have encouraged, approved actions of murders and jihadists. Please. Quote the exact words that led you to believe I approve of terrorists.

Strawman,..,Where did i accuse you of denial of attrocities? Please quote me.

 

only a daft person would twist historical fact and call HAMAS was a (your quote) "peacefull" organisation when it was elected by the palastinian people.

---

 

(your quote) "...Israel has banned import of books toys, and other items that would make life less dismal....

Not really. From your own link , and its in English so you have no excuse (note the bold)

 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/amira-hass-israel-bans-books-music-and-clothes-from-entering-gaza-1.276147

Gaza merchants are forbidden to import canned goods, plastic sheeting, toys and books,

although the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and other aid organizations are

permitted to bring them into the strip.

 

 

"...I did show that the videos you posted, at least one, was verifiably not Hamas..."

Silly immature drama,..i checked immediatly and posted a correction, thats not being dishonest  , thats being factual.

Normal people have difficulty differentiating between all the various kinds of islamic evil, so a singlular mistake is understandable.

 

Its funny how you can just lie about German Hsitory  (to avoid blaming Palastinian voters for voting for a terrorist group). Making stuff up about kids firing a morter granade (they did fire it as it clearly seen) and other just silly sophistic debating unfactual tricks to make the Isreali look more evil then....what? HAMAS?

 

People shoot guns/rockets, people will die,.., thats called war,..,because in the end its humans behind the trigger. and mistakes are possible.

thats something else then stating Israel is purposly targetting civilians with no proof whatsoever.