Filip Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hello Board Members! I have a question that's been on my mind for a while, and I'd like to ask your help with it. I've been listening to the show for quite a while now, and I feel I've come a long in identifying childhood trauma's in myself and others. I've been trying to better myself and I feel I am making progress. Looking at my relationships with friends and family has revealed, quite predictably, that in the past I've been drawn to disfunction and amorality. Since almost none of them are courageous enough to follow the path of self-knowledge together with me, most of these relarionships have started falling appart - some of them violently, some of them less so. I feel I can see disfunction now, in myself and others, and it's all I see. My question is: how do I recognize a healthy, virtous person if I met him/her? Most people in my country (Romania) have never heard of this show, or of libertarianism, so I believe that I cannot filter based on ideas alone. Even if meet healthy people, or people with potential, they will likely be statists/relativists and I haven't yet met a single person with a normal childhood etc. How can then at least recognize potential? Also, where do I find these people? Because they are certainly aren't in my social circles or work colleagues. If you had similar experiences, I'd be very grateful to hear your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacbot Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hello Board Members! I have a question that's been on my mind for a while, and I'd like to ask your help with it.I've been listening to the show for quite a while now, and I feel I've come a long in identifying childhood trauma's in myself and others. I've been trying to better myself and I feel I am making progress. Looking at my relationships with friends and family has revealed, quite predictably, that in the past I've been drawn to disfunction and amorality. Since almost none of them are courageous enough to follow the path of self-knowledge together with me, most of these relarionships have started falling appart - some of them violently, some of them less so.I feel I can see disfunction now, in myself and others, and it's all I see. My question is: how do I recognize a healthy, virtous person if I met him/her? Most people in my country (Romania) have never heard of this show, or of libertarianism, so I believe that I cannot filter based on ideas alone. Even if meet healthy people, or people with potential, they will likely be statists/relativists and I haven't yet met a single person with a normal childhood etc. How can then at least recognize potential? Also, where do I find these people? Because they are certainly aren't in my social circles or work colleagues.If you had similar experiences, I'd be very grateful to hear your views. Hi Filip, nice to meet you, and greetings from Luxembourg, Romania is socialist, well thats mostly true for all European countries, And some think Europe is part of the "freedom club".. I guess in some alternate reality this might be true. Anyway...,IN any case you are young so best thing for you is vote with your feet. Switzerland is nice and kindof near libertarian (compared to most countries). Of course there is also singapore and Hongkong. You can also become a Romanian libertarian activist, there is a ludwing von Mises institute in romania http://mises.ro/ maybe hang out with them and see what you can do to promote the cause of liberty in your country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hi Filip, I have a good friend from the boards I've known for some years who also lives in Romania, so you're not entirely alone out there. I can forward this thread to him if you would like. As for meeting virtuous people, well I would say the first steps is recognising virtue in yourself, after which I would encourage you to try and meet people here from the boards and other FDR affiliated groups within Facebook or Google +. Where such people are much more likely to exist. One such option within Europe is a Facebook group with a burgeoning 120 members thus far and growing. We discuss philosophy, relationships, economics and virtue. I would encourage you to join, as a way to start interacting with folk with a view to eventually meeting those likeminds you enjoy the most in the flesh (so to speak). Well done for reaching out. https://www.facebook.com/groups/FDR.Europe/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bipedal Primate Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 As for meeting virtuous people, well I would say the first steps is recognising virtue in yourself, after which I would encourage you to try and meet people here from the boards and other FDR affiliated groups within Facebook or Google +. Where such people are much more likely to exist https://www.facebook.com/groups/FDR.Europe/ Great question (and great reply above). I have decided it is of paramount importance to remove active abusers and anyone who practices violent communication in order for me to remain on the path of self-knowledge in conjunction with surrounding myself with people of virtue. I am currently on holiday in the USA, but when I return to my home in Beijing, I am going to reach out to the few people listed on the FDR Beijing meetup group. If none of them are still in Beijing, I plan to start a group myself. Being around supportive, like-minded people, with shared lived experiences is what I want and need. Fulfilling my wants and needs is what I call self care. I hope you are able to connect with the people who deserve to have you in their life. :-) Anyway...,IN any case you are young so best thing for you is vote with your feet. Switzerland is nice and kindof near libertarian (compared to most countries). Of course there is also singapore and Hongkong.http://mises.ro/ "Vote with your feet" -- hilarious and so true. 'Voting with our feet' can be applied in every facet of our lives. I lived in Hong Kong for 7 years, before the Handover and also after the handover. So I witnessed what the country was like with civil liberties and then without. I also lived in Shanghai for 3 years, and have been in Beijing for a year. After living in Hong Kong, my political views morphed from Classic Liberal to 1/2 Libertarian, and then to 80% Libertarian. I agree with your view that Hong Kong's political system does have it's merits. This is when I saw the benefits of abolishing income tax all together:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hi Filip, I have a good friend from the boards I've known for some years who also lives in Romania, so you're not entirely alone out there. I can forward this thread to him if you would like. As for meeting virtuous people, well I would say the first steps is recognising virtue in yourself, after which I would encourage you to try and meet people here from the boards and other FDR affiliated groups within Facebook or Google +. Where such people are much more likely to exist. One such option within Europe is a Facebook group with a burgeoning 120 members thus far and growing. We discuss philosophy, relationships, economics and virtue. I would encourage you to join, as a way to start interacting with folk with a view to eventually meeting those likeminds you enjoy the most in the flesh (so to speak). Well done for reaching out. https://www.facebook.com/groups/FDR.Europe/Thank you for your tip! Do forward please.As far me being in Romania goes, yes, I have been thinking of moving. It might happen some time in the near future too.Until then, however, and even after then there remains the question of how to recognize people who are moral and rational, and with at least a potential for self-knowledge. What worries me is that if I would meet today the me of say 3 years ago, I would very much hesitate to build a relationship with past-me: a relativist, amoral statist with a complete lack of awareness of his childhood issues and how that was carried forward. Yet there was in me even then the potential of present-me, but currently I'd certainly miss it. So how do I know how many people with potential I miss? Given my current environment, it's unlikely that I will meet too many people who are already "on the way" of self- and world knowledge so as long as I stay here, I can only count on friendships of the people who will grow with me. At least that is how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Until then, however, and even after then there remains the question of how to recognize people who are moral and rational, and with at least a potential for self-knowledge. Sounds to me Filip, that you doubt your own capacity for virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Sounds to me Filip, that you doubt your own capacity for virtue.Interesting Patrick, why do you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Well, the whole point about philosophy and self knowledge is to recognize virtue in others and perhaps more importantly to recognize the lack of virtue in others. You have heard it said, 'that love is the involuntary response to virtue' right? So it seems that if you are concerned about missing the virtuous people you may meet in life, is probably because you don't really understand what virtue is, or you (unconsciously perhaps) doubt your own capacity for virtue. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filip Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Well, the whole point about philosophy and self knowledge is to recognize virtue in others and perhaps more importantly to recognize the lack of virtue in others. You have heard it said, 'that love is the involuntary response to virtue' right? So it seems that if you are concerned about missing the virtuous people you may meet in life, is probably because you don't really understand what virtue is, or you (unconsciously perhaps) doubt your own capacity for virtue. Make sense?Very interesting point. I am confident that I both am virtous and can recognize a lack of virtue (using NAP as a guide). Where I am uncertain is how to judge people who don't violate NAP in their actions, but they consider such violations wholly permissible in their personal philosophies. I can again give my own past example: my worst non-defensive act of aggression was stealing a bar of chocolate as a child. At the same time I would claim that murder and fraud were permisibble, since morality was nothing but a social construct. So was I virtuos even back then, because of my lack of aggression? Are immoral personal philosophies to be ignored in assesing someone's morality if they are never acted upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickC Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I detect that you consider not violating UPB or the NAP as being virtuous. Which is where I think you might be going wrong. UPB or the NAP are the very least a person can not violate before they reach virtue. Those are moral principles which I think (at least for us) are fairly clear to understand and generally not issues we often have to face violating if ever in our lives. I wouldn't call that virtue. I don't want to go all abstract particularly, but you might want to refer to Aesthetically Preferred Actions (APA) from the UPB book. From these actions springs virtue. Virtue is quite distinct from morality. Virtue is about your reputation, your ability to keep your word and follow through on your contracts. It's about ones ability to accept personal responsibility. To be honest with those we claim to love and cherish. Virtue is a whole lot more too, but you get the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacbot Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 This is when I saw the benefits of abolishing income tax all together:-) But who will pay for the roads?)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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