University and computer science

[FriendlyHacker]

I'm a self taught guy so I only really know about what people who did go to college tell me, and to my surprise they always tell me about the huge amount of focus being put into technologies that are no longer relevant, and in teachers who teach how to code with pen and paper or some other impossible to debug technique that has nothing to do with coding.

 

If this is a skill people develop by practice and a natural hability in math/language (genetics). Is there really any point in going to college to learn this?

[WorBlux]

Depends on where you go. It really shouldn't matter if an older language is used if the core principle in the course are solid. C++. Java, Python should just be means to show the big ideas. If you just want technique X, it may be better to teach yourself, if you want the deep how and why of computer science a formal eduction 4+ year programs are appropriate vehicles to that end.

 

As to the outdated comment, you do realize how much COBOL code is still out there and running? If you set yourself up right you can make as much or more with code maintenance as code development.

[jacbot]

I think it is helpfull to get away from the fact using programming as a benchmark to measure intelligence or if college works as advertised.

 

We might aswell use "liberal arts" as a  benchmark if you want to go there. You have to understand that a lot of nonsense degree are promoted because part of higher education is a scam.

 

The scam is to feed some ego of people who dont wnat to do the legwork doing any of the science disciplines.

Even then a lot of it you can do by yourself (especially the theoretical part).

 

Its important to not feed this scam by acknowledging certain course as totally useless.

 

For CS..I think their would be a few schools that would teach ( in an ancap environment) that would concentrate on compiler deisgn, networking protocols, os design,..,

[AlesD]

I studied computer science and finished it. I'm from Europe so probably here it is a bit different than there in the US. But I can say that here the focus was mostly on the theory so the studying does not really prepare you for real life work. More for an academic career if you are going to pursue that. There is not much coding if you do just the required projects you don't really learn enough coding because they are small very specific things. Still I think it is good to know the basic theory of computing and algorithms. It does not matter much if you learn it on older technologies the principles are still the same now. It can help you if you program more advanced stuff and need to optimize algorithms. Academic computer science goes in depth into this topics in some areas. Of course you can always learn this also yourself.

For me programming was also a hobby so I was doing it anyway on my own and writing my own programs. And I started working already before finishing the studies. In my home country student work is very popular so many people start working already as students especially in the computer science field because there is lots of demand for programmers.

For me personally I don't think the studying was a waste of time. To me also the theory is interesting and I was developing my skills also on my own. Still if you want to quickly start making money then it is better to go to work directly. I met with some classmates from my high school who did not study in the same work later and they were at the same position because of the years of experience.

[jacbot]

I studied computer science and finished it. I'm from Europe so probably here it is a bit different than there in the US.

 

"...I studied computer science and finished it..."  Funny why CS people are the only ones explicitly stating they finished a course... I wonder why that is. Nothing personal, just noting this is kind of a trend within CS community (my experience anyway).

 

CS in Europe is exactly the same as in the US. Schools may differ but the same goes for differences between schools withing the Euro space.

Added:

 

This whole college debate is a waste of time,.., I would like to see ancaps moving forward and designing DIY courses (in CS and others) online.

 

There is DIY for everything these days, from building jets, homes, ships, submarines,..,....., why not science/engineering learning?

 

A good start would be that several (in the case of CS) grads just post their entire 4 year curriculem online. with the books they have read, reviews, etc etc. etc  and take it from there.

 

We could have a online communities around DIY learning disciplines....

 

Free citizens should ban together and create solutions and alternatives to state-subsidized learning centers...,

[FriendlyHacker]

"...I studied computer science and finished it..."  Funny why CS people are the only ones explicitly stating they finished a course... I wonder why that is. Nothing personal, just noting this is kind of a trend within CS community (my experience anyway).

 

That happens exactly because of what AlesD said above, people go get a degree to learn how to code and end up learning how to be academic, so they quit half way. Advanced math might be useful in the off chance you end up doing compression algorithms and etc... but for every day coding you won't need it, what you will need is a good undestanding of coding logic that can only be reached by practice in code writing.I often see people getting out of CS and going straight to teaching, because they might not have learned how to do the actual code but did learn how to teach + have the degree to get a job in teaching.

Depends on where you go. It really shouldn't matter if an older language is used if the core principle in the course are solid. C++. Java, Python should just be means to show the big ideas. If you just want technique X, it may be better to teach yourself, if you want the deep how and why of computer science a formal eduction 4+ year programs are appropriate vehicles to that end.As to the outdated comment, you do realize how much COBOL code is still out there and running? If you set yourself up right you can make as much or more with code maintenance as code development.

Much of the banking system still runs on COBOL but for me maintenance is not nearly as satisfying as creating something new.

I think it is helpfull to get away from the fact using programming as a benchmark to measure intelligence or if college works as advertised.

 

We might aswell use "liberal arts" as a  benchmark if you want to go there. You have to understand that a lot of nonsense degree are promoted because part of higher education is a scam.

 

The scam is to feed some ego of people who dont wnat to do the legwork doing any of the science disciplines.

Even then a lot of it you can do by yourself (especially the theoretical part).

 

Its important to not feed this scam by acknowledging certain course as totally useless.

 

For CS..I think their would be a few schools that would teach ( in an ancap environment) that would concentrate on compiler deisgn, networking protocols, os design,..,

Yes, a very expensive scam, plus if you're good at teaching yourself you can always learn anything theoric from books when and if you need it.

"...I studied computer science and finished it..."  Funny why CS people are the only ones explicitly stating they finished a course... I wonder why that is. Nothing personal, just noting this is kind of a trend within CS community (my experience anyway).

 

CS in Europe is exactly the same as in the US. Schools may differ but the same goes for differences between schools withing the Euro space.

Added:

 

This whole college debate is a waste of time,.., I would like to see ancaps moving forward and designing DIY courses (in CS and others) online.

 

There is DIY for everything these days, from building jets, homes, ships, submarines,..,....., why not science/engineering learning?

 

A good start would be that several (in the case of CS) grads just post their entire 4 year curriculem online. with the books they have read, reviews, etc etc. etc  and take it from there.

 

We could have a online communities around DIY learning disciplines....

 

Free citizens should ban together and create solutions and alternatives to state-subsidized learning centers...,

 

You have any ideas for doing this?

[jacbot]

You have any ideas for doing this?

 

I have some ideas....

[FriendlyHacker]

I have some ideas....

 

Ok, I try to learn as much as I can about Pedagogy in my spare time, but so far what I found is that my method of self learning only works for me, and that I'm unable to understand the process in which other people learn. So I also have many ideas for doing educational software, and have done a few, but am still clueless about how to get the average Joe to be an independent learner, do you know how?Some of the education related stuff I've worked on:www.videoneat.comwww.thevenusproject.comwww.tromsite.com

[jacbot]

Ok, I try to learn as much as I can about Pedagogy in my spare time, but so far what I found is that my method of self learning only works for me, and that I'm unable to understand the process in which other people learn. So I also have many ideas for doing educational software, and have done a few, but am still clueless about how to get the average Joe to be an independent learner, do you know how?Some of the education related stuff I've worked on:www.videoneat.comwww.thevenusproject.comwww.tromsite.com

 

The sites are very interesting and media centric organised, venusproject, isnt that Peter Josef and RBE?

www.tromsite.com is my fav. more of a lecture format.

 

There will be a list to graduate books (buy at amazon and dover publishing). Some math books are expensive (100-300 usd) , in the future i will look for cheaper replacements. I cannot advocate the use of torrent although of course people  will use it .

 

There will be a hierarchy of dependancies (if you want to know about A you have to do C D and R first that kind of thing.)

First year cirriculem will go online soon. (study outlines, numerical simulation scripts,..,and worked out solutions will be github).

 

The material is top notch, better when what was presented to me during my studies, the books on the list is personally read and worked thourgh by me so i am not recommending something i halfhartedly read.

 

The site will be concentrated around working out solutions in said books. Or if there is a solution manual available (some textbooks have this) I will highlight wich solutions are difficult to solve (as these are the ones that increase your understanding the most).

 

Maybe in the future some ability like a forum where people can do homework together or ask questions. Or even the possiblity that more senior student can tutor beginners.

 

If you want to do this parttime going through one of the books will take you 1-2 month of your spare time, if you spend 4 hours a day studying, thats because I really concentrate on the problem solving to integrate this knowledge into the intuitive part of your brian.

[FriendlyHacker]

Peter Joseph got most of his ideas from the Venus Project, but he has his own organization. These organizations don't really support each other anymore, some 4 years ago Peter tried to steer the Venus Project into his own direction and was cut off. But yes, it is about a Resource Based Economy.

 

This is what you would probably find the most interesting:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/extras/tvp-tv

 

Am quite proud of having built that TVP-TV software in a single day.

[Pepin]

I taught myself how to program in high school, and in college I took a few classes during my first and only year. My skills were good enough to be hired as a programmer by a on campus company that received contracts from outside sources. Taught myself far too many languages in a short period of time, really my work was like another two classes.

 

A lot of the recommendations to step away from the computer were quite helpful. This came more from books than my teachers, but the teachers really stressed understanding what you were coding before you coded. One teacher talked about various high level military projects which needed to work first try, and how anyone working on these projects always writes everything out to make sure it works on paper before implementing anything.

 

A large issue with programmers is that they do not do enough planning, and tend just to code. There is the process of deciding to write up a part, writing it, and checking to see if it works. If it does, do the same thing again. If not, take the time to figure it out. This method is really looking for trouble on huge projects, as many complex issues start to pop up later. I've been there. A process of planning on paper helps incredibly in breaking down a project, figuring out algorithms, and so on.

[jacbot]

Peter Joseph got most of his ideas from the Venus Project, but he has his own organization. These organizations don't really support each other anymore, some 4 years ago Peter tried to steer the Venus Project into his own direction and was cut off. But yes, it is about a Resource Based Economy.

 

This is what you would probably find the most interesting:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/extras/tvp-tv

 

Am quite proud of having built that TVP-TV software in a single day.

 

There is no resource shortage,.., there is a technology /knowledge shortage ,.., .  you can have all the resources in the world but if you have no meaningfull amount of engineers,..., not good,.., its going to be a bit difficult..,

[jacbot]

I taught myself how to program in high school, and in college I took a few classes during my first and only year. My skills were good enough to be hired as a programmer by a on campus company that received contracts from outside sources. Taught myself far too many languages in a short period of time, really my work was like another two classes.

 

A lot of the recommendations to step away from the computer were quite helpful. This came more from books than my teachers, but the teachers really stressed understanding what you were coding before you coded. One teacher talked about various high level military projects which needed to work first try, and how anyone working on these projects always writes everything out to make sure it works on paper before implementing anything.

 

A large issue with programmers is that they do not do enough planning, and tend just to code. There is the process of deciding to write up a part, writing it, and checking to see if it works. If it does, do the same thing again. If not, take the time to figure it out. This method is really looking for trouble on huge projects, as many complex issues start to pop up later. I've been there. A process of planning on paper helps incredibly in breaking down a project, figuring out algorithms, and so on.

 

What would Stef think about  the idea of freedomain radio having an (akin to  odesk.com) forum where ancap can engage in economic activity with each other?

I think it would be a good community for that.