Culain Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Hopefully this won't come off as a rant. As I understand it, the government (state) is a reflection of the populace. It's not that the government is corrupted as I am the government of myself, but rather that the people in society are corrupted. But how does this manifest? I've been thinking about "The Button" thought experiment, it's an idea that by pressing this magical button somehow a problem will be solved. The specifics are never explained nor can they be. An example, "If you could press a button to end the government would you press it?" When one talks about how the idea is simply not possible they are usually criticized with a lack of abstraction. Do I lack an abstract ability? I decide to test out their abstractive ability "Please explain how this button could possibly solve the problem." No rational explanation is ever given, you will commonly hear things like it will remove all the corrupt people, which i persist with the 'how' over and over and over revealing that eventually they can not in any way visualize a realistic solution. Why? Because Magic, The word magic, it's the representation of everything we want but can not visualize how. Stefan has recently done a few video reviews on magic in movies and how it's related to insanity and I'm starting to see the relation. The more corrupt a government can be is inversely related to how much a society desires magic. The state cultists hammer the signs down in their yards; they perform their rituals and their chants begging to be saved but with no clear idea of how. This type of magic can be compared to alchemy, the ability to change the properties of one object to another. In this case they are trying to change the properties of their insanity to reality which is simply not possible. The conclusion is an inevitable failure, a monstrosity. The people attack the image of the monstrosity when it was their lack of image which created it. The Button is Magic, and Magic is Insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwain Dibley Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Individuals are just fine, it's those damn 'people' you gotta watch out for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGP Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Thats an interesting post. A couple things popped into my head. Firstly, govs and promises and the magic you speak of remind me of a parent telling a child "everything will be ok" in an obviously dysfunctional situation, based on absolutely no evidence. I think this might lead into how govs manage to promise all, with the inevitable results we have seen. Secondly, I am reminded of a line from Alan Greenspans book "An age of turbulence" when he says quite clearly that the democratic process acts as a pressure relief valve for the economic system. So, for example, boom, bust, protest marches, promises from the opposition, vote......wash,rinse,repeat. In this way, gov has become the constantly moving target for both public hope and ire, but nothing changes. The move toward fascism in this respect is perhaps something worth analysis, but not by me. I have had a curious notion lately that "citizens" in a socialist country such as my own have a push-pull relationship with gov. An example is tax and welfare. When they vote, they only see the tip of the iceberg or the tip of the spear in terms of tax paid and welfare received ie a family will receive childrens benefit while paying the tax that pays that benefit. A small movement up or down in tax or welfare is like the difference between paying 99c or 1 dollar for a candy bar. Very little difference except for the mind-trick of marketing. That's my brainstorm on this, don't know if I'm in the same ballpark o the issue, but there it is!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicist Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The Button is Magic, and Magic is Insanity. That seems harsh. Allow me to defend the button thought experiment Explaining complex ideas like how voluntary organization might work is difficult enough without extraneous details like, "but what about all the government services that already exist?!". When I say extraneous I don't mean it's not an important consideration by itself, just that it's completely irrelevant to this example, and so any attempt to address it just slows things down. We aren't Ents, time is finite, so allowing for gaps in some of the specific details can let you quickly get to the point you are trying to make. The example you provided ("If you could press a button to end the government would you press it?") is a really useful abstract tool in my opinion, even though it's impossible, because it lets you explore situations like how people might organize in its absence or whether corruption is inherent to it or human beings or something else entirely. No rational explanation is ever given, you will commonly hear things like it will remove all the corrupt people, which i persist with the 'how' over and over and over revealing that eventually they can not in any way visualize a realistic solution. Why? Why go into the 'how'? I would just accept the premise and ask why wouldn't another government just replace it? Asking them to explain the how when it's obviously a theoretical fantasy situation seems pedantic. Maybe they are just idiots lacking in creativity or very irrational people, but I don't think the button thought experiment indicates that by itself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepin Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Magic has many basises. There is the self-deceptive sort, which is generally known as superstitious behavior. There is the more harmful kind where there is the magician, and the the audience. The premise tends to be that the audience does not has access to such powers, while the magician gained such powers early on in life, or through years and years of training. The magic that "works" is far more dangerous than the magic that doesn't. Psychic readings for instance do not work as the psychic tends to give general and vague advice which the audience fills in. The magic that works is of the kind where the magician has knowledge of how to do something, but misdirects the audience into believing that the fix has something to do with the performance. If a computer technician gets you to believe that you need to execute a complex ancient dance that takes years to master, you will then never be able to attempt to fix your computer. If you spend years learning the dance, you have just wasted your time. In context to the state, laws are spells. Only politicians have the means of casting them. The political process is to give people the illusion of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. D. Stembal Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 The button scenario is a manifestation of people wanting something for nothing, in other words, general laziness. Why would you press the button to nuke the state even if you could? It totally usurps any credibility you will have in your life in the future. This is the same trap to which statists fall prey when they vote. If I only cast votes for the right candidate, all of my problems will go away. But it's even better than that - voting in democratic elections provides the illusion that is it the lowly individual that is in control of politics! That's the real magic! Magic doesn't really work and everyone knows it. That's why we call it magic. It's people paying a stage actor to con them for the purposes of amusement. Essentially, this is what we do when we drive to the polls to vote for democracy. We push our magic button then watch the spectacle on the evening news as they count the number of people who pushed the magic button. It's all very silly and when you point it out, people get defensive because they really like watching magic shows. Telling them the truth spoils their enjoyment of magicians practicing their trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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