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Dayna Martin on Wife-Swap

Culain

By Culain
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Tyler Durden Newbie

Tyler Durden

Posted
Posted

I think Dayna did an excellent job at the other people's house, she actually brought the father closer to his kids and I don't see anything that she could have done better.

 

However, there were some problems at here house too.

 

For example the piercing, I'd say that it's quite irresponsible to let a 13-year-old get a hole pierced through the middle of his nose. Also, the reading, it's an essential life skill so you should teach it to your children as soon as they're capable of learning it. And the hygiene was a problem too, it doesn't have to be the same as in the other house but you don't let a dog lick the dishes, that's crazy.

 

Besides that, I didn't think they handled the other mom's rules very well. I mean, they voluntarily signed up for this show, and we can assume that the kids took part in that decision as well. So if you agree to live by somebody else's rules for a week then you should just keep your word and do it. And to say that you're not going to do it just because she stayed at a hotel is just lame, I mean, they specifically told here that there were no rules, so she could do whatever she wanted and she chose to sleep at a hotel.

 

Don't get me wrong, the other woman was batshit crazy and her household was nothing short of a prison. But some of her criticism on the Martin residence was correct and Dayna's excellent performance was somewhat undermined by it in my opinion

tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

I think Dayna did an excellent job at the other people's house, she actually brought the father closer to his kids and I don't see anything that she could have done better.

 

However, there were some problems at here house too.

 

For example the piercing, I'd say that it's quite irresponsible to let a 13-year-old get a hole pierced through the middle of his nose. Also, the reading, it's an essential life skill so you should teach it to your children as soon as they're capable of learning it. And the hygiene was a problem too, it doesn't have to be the same as in the other house but you don't let a dog lick the dishes, that's crazy.

 

Besides that, I didn't think they handled the other mom's rules very well. I mean, they voluntarily signed up for this show, and we can assume that the kids took part in that decision as well. So if you agree to live by somebody else's rules for a week then you should just keep your word and do it. And to say that you're not going to do it just because she stayed at a hotel is just lame, I mean, they specifically told here that there were no rules, so she could do whatever she wanted and she chose to sleep at a hotel.

 

Don't get me wrong, the other woman was batshit crazy and her household was nothing short of a prison. But some of her criticism on the Martin residence was correct and Dayna's excellent performance was somewhat undermined by it in my opinion

 

I couldn't agree with you more that Dayna did an excellent job at the other household. I nearly cried a few times watching the brother and sister react to being treated as equals in a partnership (my emotions were a mix of joy for the present and disappointment for their normal lives with their real mother).

 

But, Tyler Durden, you can't leave me hanging on the word irresponsible... in what way is it irresponsible to take your kid to a professional peircing shop to have his nose peirced if he's been thinking about it for a while and you've discussed it with him? By the way, I don't really like peircings as I've always perceived them as a vanity issue or a cry for attention. But after watching that family event, and learning more about the Martin family (reading their blog and listening to Dayna's Youtube channel), I think Devon was expressing his artistic creativity. He is actually a blacksmith now, so I would understand if he has a natural affinity for metal and was acting on his passion.

 

Also, I disagree that the Martin family had bad hygiene. They just aren't concerned with making it look like no one is living in their house. It's not like there was food rotting, mold growing everywhere, and people being sick all the time. The dog licked the dishes before they were run through the dishwasher anyways. It would be a whole other story if the dog was the dishwasher! In my opinion, their house is the house of a family who want to keep their living quarters reasonable without becoming slaves to cleaning it.

 

By the way, I have this perspective because my dad was more like the other mom... he made us spend our weekends cleaning, things like rubbing all the dog hair off the carpeted staircases with our finger tips until they were blistered, inspecting every room after we had cleaned it and pointing out a small speck on the window that was missed then demonstrating that the surface isn't clean until you can hear the cloth squeeking against the glass as you rub off the cleaning solution, etc. For him, cleaning was not about cleaning, it was about control. He felt out of control in every other aspect of his life, so he wanted to command us kids to keep his environment from reflecting his true inner life. So a little clutter here and there, for me, signifies a healthy life in which time is being well spent.

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Ashton Newbie

Ashton

Posted
Posted

I found Dayna's way of life extremely dangerous and extremely blazay. Its everything i dislike about unschooling.

 

But like wise i found the other families way of life far too structured and disconnected from each other.

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tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

I found Dayna's way of life extremely dangerous and extremely blazay. Its everything i dislike about unschooling.

 

But like wise i found the other families way of life far too structured and disconnected from each other.

 

Yeah, I understand. I felt that same way for a while, but I gave it a lot of thought and really dug into her family life (she has blogs, youtube channels, etc.) and realized that she is not causing her children any harm whatsoever, she and her husband are doing an excellent job supporting them as they grow into adulthood. I think I felt so concerned at first because of the fear that society and my own parents had instilled; the fear of disorder and evil if children are allowed to live without an authorative structure. So I encourage you to think, in what specific way did you find her actions/principles/lifestyle to be extremely dangerous?

PatrickC Newbie

PatrickC

Posted
Posted

I share some of Tylers and Jacks reservations and concerns, but the way Dayna treated those children, given the regime they were under was pretty awesome.

Ashton Newbie

Ashton

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Posted

Yeah, I understand. I felt that same way for a while, but I gave it a lot of thought and really dug into her family life (she has blogs, youtube channels, etc.) and realized that she is not causing her children any harm whatsoever, she and her husband are doing an excellent job supporting them as they grow into adulthood. I think I felt so concerned at first because of the fear that society and my own parents had instilled; the fear of disorder and evil if children are allowed to live without an authorative structure. So I encourage you to think, in what specific way did you find her actions/principles/lifestyle to be extremely dangerous?

 

I completely agree she is not causing harm to her children. But i would say she is being neglectful by providing no structure at all. Kids need guidance, not to be left free range in the whild.

 

While supporting them to have emotion, empathy and all the good things is very important, its also equally as important to learn maths, languages, science, geography and so on. And this is where you have to take the reins and say i know its boring, but its very important to learn this information. Like brushing your teeth, kids hate doing it, but if they want teeth they need to brush them.

 

She is not instilling the value of self respect in her kids, by allowing a hormonal and emotionally volatile tweenager to make decisions that can potentially damage them, is dangerous. What if the 13 year old decided she wanted to have unprotected sex with someone? I'm pretty sure the child hasn't thought through their actions and are instead acting upon hormones and emotion.

 

I understand that unschooling is about giving the child control of their own learning, but without structure, you end up with the podcast that stef did recently about the dangers of unschooling.

tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

I completely agree she is not causing harm to her children. But i would say she is being neglectful by providing no structure at all. Kids need guidance, not to be left free range in the whild.

 

While supporting them to have emotion, empathy and all the good things is very important, its also equally as important to learn maths, languages, science, geography and so on. And this is where you have to take the reins and say i know its boring, but its very important to learn this information. Like brushing your teeth, kids hate doing it, but if they want teeth they need to brush them.

 

She is not instilling the value of self respect in her kids, by allowing a hormonal and emotionally volatile tweenager to make decisions that can potentially damage them, is dangerous. What if the 13 year old decided she wanted to have unprotected sex with someone? I'm pretty sure the child hasn't thought through their actions and are instead acting upon hormones and emotion.

 

I understand that unschooling is about giving the child control of their own learning, but without structure, you end up with the podcast that stef did recently about the dangers of unschooling.

 

Ok, but why are these subjects important? And why wouldn't a child be able to learn about this in an unstructured environment? For example, working with the dad one day in his wood shop would be a good math lesson (measuring, etc.). The oldest boy is also into building structures, like forts, lodges and workshops... building involves advanced mathematics, so he is obviously learning. He also sews his own clothing, which involves math. And the family often travels the world; maybe better than sitting in geo class for 45 minutes every Tues/Thurs. Also, why do we waste our time learning things that we don't end up using in our adult life? The purpose of unschooling would seem to me to support the child in discovering his own passions and determining what knowledge and skill is necessary to effectively live out these passions, and pursuing those skills and knowledge.

 

There are dangers to unschooling, and that one call-in show was a prime example. I'm not saying unschooling is for everyone, but for the Martin family, these children are benefiting hugely. I've been working on building out a theory as to when unschooling can be most effective and when it is destined for failure.

 

  • First, if the parents express any lack of commitment to the concept itself, it's probably going to fail. Like the caller, he admitted to being on the fence about it the whole time. He had commitment issues (which is interestingly what he was complaining about his daughter having as well)... and his daughter felt the repurcussion of it. The Martin family is guided by principles and believe 110% in the method and purpose of unschooling.

     

  • If the parents aren't both able to stay at home most of the time with the children to facilitate learning and balance eachother out, there is a greater risk of failure. I believe the caller had a full-time job while his wife stayed at home. Both of the Martin parents have careers where they are able to spend a healthy amount of time with their kids.

     

  • If the parents live a lifestyle of going to work, watching t.v. or playing vid games during their free time, going out to eat rather than preparing their own meals, and overall lacking a wide variety skills, interests and passions (other than those that make them experts in their own career) then unschooling is definitely doomed. (I got the impression that the caller was living a one-track kind of life, where he followed a simple routine where most of his time was spent at work or doing work -- nothing wrong with this by the way, just not good for unschooling). If the parents themselves are done learning or have become so focused in on one thing, then surely they will not be able to facilitate their children's learning. I would consider the Martin father to be a renaissance man or a "jack of all trades", and Dayna seems to be a passionate student of life regardless of her age.

     

  • The parents must understand their critical role as a facilitator and a resource in their child's learning (partnership is what Dayna calls it). The caller seemed to view unschooling as a completely hands off thing where you leave the kid alone and wash your hands of any responsibility. The Martins, on the other hand, are fully aware of what their children are up to, genuinely curious and interested in what interests their kids, and consistently provide encouragement and support through the journey.

 

When unschooling is successful, the child creates his own structure to accomplish his own goals. The parents are there as a trusted resource to the child. So structure is involved in a sense.

Ashton Newbie

Ashton

Posted
Posted

Ok, but why are these subjects important?

Are you confused as to why Maths, Science and English (If you're native) are important to learn? Or are you asking me why they are important? Because i'm confused at how you don't see these subjects as important. 

And why wouldn't a child be able to learn about this in an unstructured environment?

There is no reason why they couldn't, but without having a child with intrinsic learning and an attentive parent, children will do what they think is fun. Learning maths for most children isn't that much fun, so they'll play Minecraft all day and then when they are older, fail to understand why they can't build a house. 

For example, working with the dad one day in his wood shop would be a good math lesson (measuring, etc.).

Right, but you can't use trigonometry to understand 20% off at Walmart. 

The oldest boy is also into building structures, like forts, lodges and workshops... building involves advanced mathematics, so he is obviously learning.

I can go outside and build a fort and never use maths once. Lets say that kid loves building, he'll NEVER be allowed to build any structure because "he built forts when he was growing up." He'll need to understand much more then what he can learn from his environment and he will need to get a degree in Architecture to even build a building. 

He also sews his own clothing, which involves math.

Textiles is art and art requires less structure to learn. 

And the family often travels the world; maybe better than sitting in geo class for 45 minutes every Tues/Thurs.

Ok, now your confusing Culture with Geography. Unless the parents are teaching him about how the land works, he isn't learning Geography and is instead just going on holiday. 

Also, why do we waste our time learning things that we don't end up using in our adult life? The purpose of unschooling would seem to me to support the child in discovering his own passions and determining what knowledge and skill is necessary to effectively live out these passions, and pursuing those skills and knowledge.

The podcast by stef showed that a child left to make their own choices, will often never challenge their understanding and will only learn to a satisfy understanding. 

There are dangers to unschooling, and that one call-in show was a prime example. I'm not saying unschooling is for everyone, but for the Martin family, these children are benefiting hugely.

I completely disagree. When they go into the world and want to work doing their passion, they will realise they don't have the society demanded qualifications and they will struggle.
Tyler Durden Newbie

Tyler Durden

Posted
Posted

I couldn't agree with you more that Dayna did an excellent job at the other household. I nearly cried a few times watching the brother and sister react to being treated as equals in a partnership (my emotions were a mix of joy for the present and disappointment for their normal lives with their real mother).

 

But, Tyler Durden, you can't leave me hanging on the word irresponsible... in what way is it irresponsible to take your kid to a professional peircing shop to have his nose peirced if he's been thinking about it for a while and you've discussed it with him? By the way, I don't really like peircings as I've always perceived them as a vanity issue or a cry for attention. But after watching that family event, and learning more about the Martin family (reading their blog and listening to Dayna's Youtube channel), I think Devon was expressing his artistic creativity. He is actually a blacksmith now, so I would understand if he has a natural affinity for metal and was acting on his passion.

 

Also, I disagree that the Martin family had bad hygiene. They just aren't concerned with making it look like no one is living in their house. It's not like there was food rotting, mold growing everywhere, and people being sick all the time. The dog licked the dishes before they were run through the dishwasher anyways. It would be a whole other story if the dog was the dishwasher! In my opinion, their house is the house of a family who want to keep their living quarters reasonable without becoming slaves to cleaning it.

 

By the way, I have this perspective because my dad was more like the other mom... he made us spend our weekends cleaning, things like rubbing all the dog hair off the carpeted staircases with our finger tips until they were blistered, inspecting every room after we had cleaned it and pointing out a small speck on the window that was missed then demonstrating that the surface isn't clean until you can hear the cloth squeeking against the glass as you rub off the cleaning solution, etc. For him, cleaning was not about cleaning, it was about control. He felt out of control in every other aspect of his life, so he wanted to command us kids to keep his environment from reflecting his true inner life. So a little clutter here and there, for me, signifies a healthy life in which time is being well spent.

 

I used the word irresponsible because I consider it a parent's responsibility to make sure that nothing damaging happens to the child until he reaches adulthood. There are degrees of damage of course, and getting a piercing is not life threatening or anything, but you're still cutting through healthy tissue to make a hole in an important body part for no practical reason at all. So it definitely qualifies as damage and therefore I consider it irresponsible. I wouldn't forbid children to get weird haircuts, dye their hair, or wear alternative jewelry or clothing because that doesn't damage their bodies, but I place piercings in a different category.

 

As for the hygiene. I thought that the dog was licking it when she took the dishes out but I watched it back and I saw that it was in fact before they ran the dishwasher, so I take that comment about the dog back. I still think the house should be a little cleaner, somewhere in between the two houses is healthy in my opinion, you want it to be clean but you don't want to be neurotic about it.

 

Sorry about your dad man, what an ass.

MysterionMuffles Newbie

MysterionMuffles

Posted
Posted

As I mentioned in the original thread about this episode:

 

 

 

I really liked that episode, but for most people they wouldn't guage the value of unschooling philosophy and the touchy bondingness that Dayna brought to the other family because ya know...the average viewer is a sociopath  :P

 

I didn't enjoy the idea that Dayna let that crazy woman into the lives of his children. Devon and Tiff I understand, they were old enough to know what was going on, but for the younger kids whose names escape me, that was some serious trauma to experience all for the sake of unschooling getting some media attention. I hope she apologized to them profusely and made up for that since.

 

Other than that, it was very indicative of two great different extremes. What I got out of it was that the Avery family really did need a whole ton of freedom in their househould, but it's just too bad none of Dayna's work there remained after the swap. It was sad to see Naja's artwork get taken off the walls and Rory (was that the son's name?) probably not having his friends over again. It's sad the only good thing the Avery mother (sorry if I get the names wrong lol) took with her was Joe's breakfast smoothie. The only dysfunction, if you could call it that, in the Martin family is the lack of children helping out with the chores. It's alright if Dayna doesn't mind doing all the cleaning, but the smallest improvement they could adapt is having the kids help out with the cleaning. Other than that, I was scared for them with that other mother in their lives. Jeez...

tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

Are you confused as to why Maths, Science and English (If you're native) are important to learn? Or are you asking me why they are important? Because i'm confused at how you don't see these subjects as important.

 

I read over my original reply to your post and didn't find that I made the statement anywhere saying that these things are not important, so I'm trying to understand how you made that leap to an unsupported assumption. Sorry for the confusion, I was just trying to explore the basics of why we consider these traditional subjects to be important for children to learn. I was wanting to start a conversation about the fundamentals of why we teach children these subjects. Maybe they are important, maybe they are not. I know my parents and teachers always told me they are important. But I just wanted to discuss because I think we often just assume certain subjects are important without exploring the 'why' behind it all.

 

There is no reason why they couldn't, but without having a child with intrinsic learning and an attentive parent, children will do what they think is fun. Learning maths for most children isn't that much fun, so they'll play Minecraft all day and then when they are older, fail to understand why they can't build a house.

 

I agree that learning math from a textbook in a classroom setting where you must be lectured to for an hour (whether that's by a teacher in public or private school, or a parent in homeschooling) for many children is boring. But is it the math itself that's boring or is it the method of teaching it that is boring? I personally think that it's the parent's responsibility to demonstrate that learning can be fun and even create learning situations that intentionally try to make it fun for the child.

 

 

Right, but you can't use trigonometry to understand 20% off at Walmart.

 

So you take the kids shopping with you at Walmart and make it enjoyable to figure out multiplication with percentages and decimals. Focusing on showing transparency in your own thought process and making it fun for your kids to follow along with could be a good math learning opportunity. And why not create a budget before hand and have the kids help you keep track of meeting the budget as you shop?

 

 

I can go outside and build a fort and never use maths once. Lets say that kid loves building, he'll NEVER be allowed to build any structure because "he built forts when he was growing up." He'll need to understand much more then what he can learn from his environment and he will need to get a degree in Architecture to even build a building.

 

In real life, the boy built a blacksmith shop with the help of his father. His specialty is knife blades which he turns around and sells on Etsy. I don't really know what more to say. If he decides he wants to be an architect and build houses and work in accordance with governmental codes and requirements, then the next step would be to pursue a degree, I guess.

 

 

Textiles is art and art requires less structure to learn.

 

Hmm... I didn't know that. How so?

 

 

Ok, now your confusing Culture with Geography. Unless the parents are teaching him about how the land works, he isn't learning Geography and is instead just going on holiday.

 

Ok. Well I couldn't say what's going on during their travels.

 

 

The podcast by stef showed that a child left to make their own choices, will often never challenge their understanding and will only learn to a satisfy understanding.

 

Right, if their environment allows for that behavior and their parents model that behavior, then I suppose that's what's going to happen. But I don't know that it's true that children innately will not challenge themselves. If it is true, how did civilization make any progress? Like why didn't we just stop at the homoerectus stage because we were comfortable and naturally didn't want to challenge ourselves (I'm not an expert in evolutionary history, but I don't think homoerectus had a 'structured' learning environment).

 

 

I completely disagree. When they go into the world and want to work doing their passion, they will realise they don't have the society demanded qualifications and they will struggle.

 

When exactly is the transition when kids "go into the world"? These kids were born into the world. Some of the Martin kids are already running their own businesses. At the age of 15(?), the boy blacksmiths and sells his product online. At the age of 12(?) one of their daughters has her own pet-sitting business and is pursuing modeling. Which reminds me, I forgot to mention that I theorize that one of the criteria for successful unschooling is that you very seriously consider the possibility of your child becoming an entrepreneur. If you expect your kid to go work at Hewlett Packard or a hair salon, 'formal' education is probably the best path to get them there.

 

So you know, I am not a parent, I'm 26 years old and planning on becoming a parent with my partner in a few years when we are able to work from home. But I was a child once  :)   So I hope you don't discount my ideas.

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Ashton Newbie

Ashton

Posted
Posted

So you know, I am not a parent, I'm 26 years old and planning on becoming a parent with my partner in a few years when we are able to work from home. But I was a child once  :)   So I hope you don't discount my ideas.

I don't discount your ideas, but i think your treading a thin line between homeschooling and unschooling. They are both different ideals.I'm not going to continue the discussion here as i don't feel its the right thread for it, but if you want to carry this on, you could create a thread and we could carry it on in there.
tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

I used the word irresponsible because I consider it a parent's responsibility to make sure that nothing damaging happens to the child until he reaches adulthood. There are degrees of damage of course, and getting a piercing is not life threatening or anything, but you're still cutting through healthy tissue to make a hole in an important body part for no practical reason at all. So it definitely qualifies as damage and therefore I consider it irresponsible. I wouldn't forbid children to get weird haircuts, dye their hair, or wear alternative jewelry or clothing because that doesn't damage their bodies, but I place piercings in a different category.

 

Sorry about your dad man, what an ass.

 

I understand. And thanks for the sympathy.

I don't discount your ideas, but i think your treading a thin line between homeschooling and unschooling. They are both different ideals.I'm not going to continue the discussion here as i don't feel its the right thread for it, but if you want to carry this on, you could create a thread and we could carry it on in there.

 

I feel comfortable with where this is ending. Plus I'm sure there are already unschooling and homeschooling threads. Thanks for sharing all your thoughts and hearing mine!

J. D. Stembal Newbie

J. D. Stembal

Posted
Posted

I was asking a serious question. Would the brave individual who downvoted me care to explain why?

 

Oh, come on! Surely, you're not so sensitive about your online reputation to actually care why someone down votes you. I notice that some gracious member already up voted you to even the score.

 

As for the Wife Swap video, presenting the argument like this is framing the issue to viewers as a false dichotomy. Anarchism means living in a voluntary community without rulers, not total free-wheeling chaos without any rules, requests or expectations. Likewise, you can keep your house clean easily without being a Nazi drill sergeant.

 

I was a little upset when Cindy commented, "I'm very surprised that a women would keep a house like this [dirty]," as if women have a corner of the cleanliness market in the home. Women and men are equally messy and lazy. I have seen good and bad examples of both genders.

 

Also, it takes a total lack of curiosity and creativity to see how children could be educated properly without them stepping foot in a public or private indoctrination institution.

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cynicist Newbie

cynicist

Posted
Posted

Oh, come on! Surely, you're not so sensitive about your online reputation to actually care why someone down votes you. I notice that some gracious member already up voted you to even the score.

 

I'm curious what reason was, not sure how that makes me overly sensitive. I'd still like to know the answer. (even if I was the kind of person who cared about my reputation, do you think a -1 would make a difference when I'm over 200?)

J. D. Stembal Newbie

J. D. Stembal

Posted
Posted

I am suggesting that you are worried too much about reps, so much so that you are now bragging about how much you have (>200) in a thread, which I can see as easily as clicking on your profile, I'm awestruck by your rep, sir. There's no need to fish for more rep in this thread. As I understand it, if you contribute in a positive manner to a forum, the plus reps will follow. If they don't, perhaps it's a sign to change up the strategy, assuming you don't want your posts hidden from view all the time.

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MysterionMuffles Newbie

MysterionMuffles

Posted
Posted

I was a little upset when Cindy commented, "I'm very surprised that a women would keep a house like this [dirty]," as if women have a corner of the cleanliness market in the home. Women and men are equally messy and lazy. I have seen good and bad examples of both genders.

 

Oh man I didn't notice that before! That seemed like she was putting herself, and women in general, all into this box of how and what women should be. Yes I have a female friend, and even my sister, both have bedroom that look like tornadoes hit them lol. Meanwhile my brother keeps his place pretty nice and tidy.

tjt Newbie

tjt

Posted
Posted

Oh, come on! Surely, you're not so sensitive about your online reputation to actually care why someone down votes you. I notice that some gracious member already up voted you to even the score.

 

As for the Wife Swap video, presenting the argument like this is framing the issue to viewers as a false dichotomy. Anarchism means living in a voluntary community without rulers, not total free-wheeling chaos without any rules, requests or expectations. Likewise, you can keep your house clean easily without being a Nazi drill sergeant.

 

I was a little upset when Cindy commented, "I'm very surprised that a women would keep a house like this [dirty]," as if women have a corner of the cleanliness market in the home. Women and men are equally messy and lazy. I have seen good and bad examples of both genders.

 

Also, it takes a total lack of curiosity and creativity to see how children could be educated properly without them stepping foot in a public or private indoctrination institution.

 

And it takes a lack of curiousity to make an assumption like this about someone you don't know.

 

What I'm saying is, what is your evidence for concluding that Robert Rak is "so sensitive"? A simple "why do you care?" as a response to his post would have done the trick if you were curious. Instead you assume he's acting out of shallow concern for his reputation. Is it not possible that someone would want an explanation of why they got a down vote to gain a different perspective? You couldn't possibly know what's motivating him unless you ask.

 

I'm not trying to stand up for anyone, or put anyone down. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in what you are saying about the Avery mother, and how you are acting yourself.

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