Real-Time Relationships and its values as a public school teacher

[aussiecorey]

Hello everybody, I am new to the forum and I have been listening to Stefan podcasts for the past 2 months, which has opened my eyes immensely on many issues that I never thought about before. I am currently reading his book 'Real-Time Relationships' and it makes so much sense on many levels, but I reached a chapter that is putting me in a tough spot. 

 

He states that ' Remaining in relationships with immoral people while complaining that they are immoral is one of the most subtle forms of abuse in the world. It is revoltingly hypocritical, insofar as it uses ethics to enable and justify corruption'.

 

I totally agree with this statement, and because I'm finishing my degree in education (to become a high school teacher in Australia), I will surely end up in an environment where I will work with teachers that could be deemed 'immoral'.

 

I actually already taught as a science and phys ed teacher in a public school last semester (before discovering Freedomain Radio), and I had a hard time adjusting to the values that were preached in that environment.

 

Now, the problem is that I know I will make a difference as a role-model and mentor to the kids I will teach, and I will not accept any corruption in my teaching methods as soon as I will be alone in a classroom with my students (which I couldn't do during my internship, as I had a supervisor for the entire time giving me feedback and whom had the power to fail me as soon as I went outside of the expected practices preached at the school).

 

But as Stefan explains in the book, would I be deemed immoral if I consciously decide to remain in a forced relationship with my colleagues? Staff room politics permeate any school and I will have to continuously juggle between principal, deputy principal and head of department in regard to 'what' and 'how' to teach the students.

 

What could be a philosophical course of action in this case? We need excellent teachers in public schools, and changing career right now do not make sense to me, especially because I could see the change I was making especially in my science classes, where the kids got used to questioning everything we were studying, without taking it for granted. But at the same time I want to pursue a moral life, and it will have to include my career as well.

 

Thanks for your help 

[MMX2010]

 

What could be a philosophical course of action in this case? We need excellent teachers in public schools, and changing career right now do not make sense to me, especially because I could see the change I was making especially in my science classes, where the kids got used to questioning everything we were studying, without taking it for granted.

 

I'm in no position to give you career advice, but I would challenge your statement "We need excellent teachers in public schools." by replacing it with "We need excellent teachers, period." 

[jpahmad]

You can't be a pubic school teacher and not violate the NAP everyday, all day.

 

If you're into Freedomain Radio and you work in one of the most coercive and disgusting environments on the planet, then get ready to experience a crisis of conscience.  I was there.

[cab21]

work as a private school teacher/educator

[Mister Hugz]

I would recommend taking a listen to a podcast where they go into detail about this exact subject.  Its called School Sucks Podcast http://schoolsucksproject.com/

[xSocrates]

You can't be a pubic school teacher and not violate the NAP everyday, all day.

 

 

Wow, how do you get around without roads?

 

 

 

On topic to the OP - Have you ever thought about calling into the show? You should! This would be a great topic!

 

No matter where you go, you'll be surrounded by immoral people. You need to make a living, you'll be surrounded by immoral people, and when you try to make a difference (which is exactly what you're doing with teaching *high five*), you WILL be surrounded by immoral people. It's perfectly fine from a moral standpoint to be in the presence of these people professionally. Real Time Relationships is more concerned with close, personal, relationships. Like friends, family, romantic partners, etc.

 

Unless we all buy up a bunch of land a live there, we'll all have to deal with assholes in our lives. That's not immoral, that's just reality.

 

Hope this helps! I really do admire you for your chosen profession, and it's good to know we have a school teacher out there. Please consider going on the show and talking about this. It would be a very interesting and useful conversation.

[aussiecorey]

I'm in no position to give you career advice, but I would challenge your statement "We need excellent teachers in public schools." by replacing it with "We need excellent teachers, period." 

 

You are absolutely right with the clarification, and the more I look around my cohort of future colleagues, the more I see brilliant people lacking the interest to inform themselves and search for ideas and perspectives outside of what we are taught at university. And given the fact that once a teacher questions the system, cognitive dissonance in his/her brain gets activated, because biting the hand that feeds you goes against what the indoctrination we receive for the 4 years of our degree. i recently started reading and listening to John Taylor Gatto and he is unbelievably fascinating to listen to about this topic.

 

You can't be a pubic school teacher and not violate the NAP everyday, all day.

 

If you're into Freedomain Radio and you work in one of the most coercive and disgusting environments on the planet, then get ready to experience a crisis of conscience.  I was there.

 

So how did you cope with the crisis of conscience jpahmad? Were you surrounded by hostility? Because the rewarding experience for me was that at least with the students I built a good rapport, nowhere near what I know I can accomplish, but that will come the more I get near the 10.000 hours needed to master any profession/skill. The thing that surprised/angered/frustrated me the most is the disrespect and disinterest that teachers showed towards their students. After-school meetings where million technicalities and procedures were discussed ad nauseam, but almost no words on how to build a constructive and safe environment in and outside the classrooms. I know Stefan discussed few times in his podcasts about the issue, but I'm still a newbie on Freedomain Radio to have built a knowledgeable base to form a comprehensive and factual opinion.

 

work as a private school teacher/educator

 

This is a good advice, cab21, and I just had a discussion yesterday with my course coordinator at university because the Australian school system is divided in Public, Independent and Private schools. The problem is that private schools more often than not are linked to some sort of religious identity (Anglican, Catholic, Protestant), so working in a private school might present another set of problems. And from what I've seen, there is no correlation between private schools and more enlightened colleagues/teachers, as teaching graduates come all from the same source (university).

 

I would recommend taking a listen to a podcast where they go into detail about this exact subject.  Its called School Sucks Podcast http://schoolsucksproject.com/

 

Thanks for the link, I started reading and listening to some of the articles/podcasts in that website, and it looks a potential good source of ideas.

 

Wow, how do you get around without roads?

 

 

 

On topic to the OP - Have you ever thought about calling into the show? You should! This would be a great topic!

 

No matter where you go, you'll be surrounded by immoral people. You need to make a living, you'll be surrounded by immoral people, and when you try to make a difference (which is exactly what you're doing with teaching *high five*), you WILL be surrounded by immoral people. It's perfectly fine from a moral standpoint to be in the presence of these people professionally. Real Time Relationships is more concerned with close, personal, relationships. Like friends, family, romantic partners, etc.

 

Unless we all buy up a bunch of land a live there, we'll all have to deal with assholes in our lives. That's not immoral, that's just reality.

 

Hope this helps! I really do admire you for your chosen profession, and it's good to know we have a school teacher out there. Please consider going on the show and talking about this. It would be a very interesting and useful conversation.

 

Thanks for your kind feedback xSocrates, I am actually planning on calling in a couple of months time. I just want to do enough research (e.g. reading each one of Stefan's books, and listening to his philosophy series) that I will be prepared to go into a fulfilling discussion with him, as I have noticed that many people don't really arrive prepared to the call, and they struggle to identify the important issues that they want to discuss.

I am Italian and even though I have no problem to verbalize my thoughts, philosophy is really challenging my ability to communicate at such a deeper level and I welcome this struggle very happily.

 

Thanks for the clarification about RTR's target (relationships with friends, family, romantic partners), it is the second book I read, after UPB, and I just felt pushed to take action by reading some passages that seemed tailored to my experience with my future colleagues even though probably they are more of a satellite target of the book.

[Jer]

Now, the problem is that I know I will make a difference as a role-model and mentor to the kids I will teach, and I will not accept any corruption in my teaching methods as soon as I will be alone in a classroom with my students (which I couldn't do during my internship, as I had a supervisor for the entire time giving me feedback and whom had the power to fail me as soon as I went outside of the expected practices preached at the school).

 

What could be a philosophical course of action in this case? We need excellent teachers in public schools, and changing career right now do not make sense to me, especially because I could see the change I was making especially in my science classes, where the kids got used to questioning everything we were studying, without taking it for granted. But at the same time I want to pursue a moral life, and it will have to include my career as well.

 

Thanks for your help 

Welcome Corey. I can relate. I was planning to teach also, but had decided against public school before I came to philosophy (mainly because I wanted nothing to do with unions). Then I became an atheist and that eliminated lots of the private choices. I have a problem with compulsory education in general and I don't want to try to teach people who don't want to learn, so I'm looking into private tutoring and/or language schools like English as a second language.

 

So the reason behind your plan to teach in public schools is that you want to be a mentor and role model for young people while earning a living, right? Can you accomplish that in a setting where the kids are not forced to be there and your salary isn't funded by taxes? If you believe that taxation is theft and theft is immoral, would it be easier or harder to have a positive impact on the people you teach if your salary is funded through theft?

[xSocrates]

 

Thanks for your kind feedback xSocrates, I am actually planning on calling in a couple of months time. I just want to do enough research (e.g. reading each one of Stefan's books, and listening to his philosophy series) that I will be prepared to go into a fulfilling discussion with him, as I have noticed that many people don't really arrive prepared to the call, and they struggle to identify the important issues that they want to discuss.

I am Italian and even though I have no problem to verbalize my thoughts, philosophy is really challenging my ability to communicate at such a deeper level and I welcome this struggle very happily.

 

Thanks for the clarification about RTR's target (relationships with friends, family, romantic partners), it is the second book I read, after UPB, and I just felt pushed to take action by reading some passages that seemed tailored to my experience with my future colleagues even though probably they are more of a satellite target of the book.

 

Have you already made arrangements with Mike? I think the wait list is around a month or two anyways. 

 

 

Welcome Corey. I can relate. I was planning to teach also, but had decided against public school before I came to philosophy (mainly because I wanted nothing to do with unions). Then I became an atheist and that eliminated lots of the private choices. I have a problem with compulsory education in general and I don't want to try to teach people who don't want to learn, so I'm looking into private tutoring and/or language schools like English as a second language.

 

So the reason behind your plan to teach in public schools is that you want to be a mentor and role model for young people while earning a living, right? Can you accomplish that in a setting where the kids are not forced to be there and your salary isn't funded by taxes? If you believe that taxation is theft and theft is immoral, would it be easier or harder to have a positive impact on the people you teach if your salary is funded through theft?

 

Do you feel a crisis of conscience for using the internet, which was created by a government, funded by taxes? Using roads? Buying government subsidized agricultural products? Of course not. 

 

If one wants to teach, this is the path he has to take because of state power. The kids would be forced to go to school anyways. They'd still have the same parents. Some other asshole would fill the position.

[Alice Amell]

I'd also recommend if possible some sort of private school. I remember one podcast Stef had a talk with a caller that had a similar problem, although she was already a teacher. Stef did say at one point that if a really great public school teacher exists, his or her students will use that as a reason why public school is good. It is giving them more evidence that the status quo is acceptable. However, on the other hand, they had a great teacher. Just a tiny consideration. I personally have had really great teachers and am still in contact with some of them. I think in some ways they showed me how awful some of the other teachers are because their classes were fun and enjoyable AND I learned a lot more than from the normal sleep-inducing, boring slime I was fed.

[Jer]

 

Do you feel a crisis of conscience for using the internet, which was created by a government, funded by taxes? Using roads? Buying government subsidized agricultural products? Of course not. 

 

If one wants to teach, this is the path he has to take because of state power. The kids would be forced to go to school anyways. They'd still have the same parents. Some other asshole would fill the position.

 

Do you see no distinction between driving on roads when there's no other reasonable means of transportation and actively seeking a position participating in the process of statist indoctrination? I'm not lobbying my representatives for road building contracts, I'm trying to develop a jetpack (in the metaphorical sense as it relates to public education).

 

Your second statement is not true. There are plenty of teaching opportunities outside of public education. You are posting on a free educational message board...

 

IMO soon it will be blatantly obvious even to bootlicking leftists that the state subsidized education is inferior to the free market alternatives. The fact that the best teachers (i.e. John Taylor Gatto and Stefan Molyneux) refuse to participate in public education will only help to accelerate this.

[xSocrates]

Do you see no distinction between driving on roads when there's no other reasonable means of transportation and actively seeking a position participating in the process of statist indoctrination? I'm not lobbying my representatives for road building contracts, I'm trying to develop a jetpack (in the metaphorical sense as it relates to public education).

 

Your second statement is not true. There are plenty of teaching opportunities outside of public education. You are posting on a free educational message board...

 

IMO soon it will be blatantly obvious even to bootlicking leftists that the state subsidized education is inferior to the free market alternatives. The fact that the best teachers (i.e. John Taylor Gatto and Stefan Molyneux) refuse to participate in public education will only help to accelerate this.

 

Except he won't be actively promoting indoctrination, will he? 

 

Even in private schools, there are government regulations, not to mention religious propaganda.

 

Stefan Molyneux is not a teacher in the sense that he teaches kids in an organized manner. There is a clear distinction between this message board and a school. 

 

In order to have any sort of credibility as a "teacher" to anyone, one must have a government license, as they have a monopoly on the standards for teaching. So yes, if he wants to become a teacher, he'll have to jump thru all the statist hoops, just like I will to become a psychotherapist. How would I have any credibility to non-experts if I didn't have a license or degree? I understand you can be an expert in psychotherapy without those things, but how can a layman be the judge of whether you are? This is why we have certificates. And the government has a monopoly on them. 

[Jer]

In order to have any sort of credibility as a "teacher" to anyone, one must have a government license. 

nope

[Timur]

Hi Corey,

 

Have you looked at FDR Meetups in your area? I organise one in Melbourne and there's now one in Sydney too. Where are you located?

[MMX2010]

Corey, here's some "oddball" advice for you to consider. 

 

Why not go teach public school right until you have the epiphany, "THIS is why public school sucks, and I know how I can fix it!"?  Once this happens, you can sell your epiphany privately. 

[xSocrates]

nope

 Way to purposefully quote that portion of my post out of context and provide no argument whatsoever. 

 

 

I'm honestly quite disturbed by this. How can an FDR listener and donator do that with a straight face? 

[tasmlab]

 

 

But as Stefan explains in the book, would I be deemed immoral if I consciously decide to remain in a forced relationship with my colleagues? Staff room politics permeate any school and I will have to continuously juggle between principal, deputy principal and head of department in regard to 'what' and 'how' to teach the students.

 

 

 

I think you are going to have a really rough time!  From what I hear in the USA, teachers who bring any different ideas or approaches are forced to comply or are outed.  Those that comply despite their true feelings are typically spiteful and unhappy.

 

I'm just a stranger on the Internet reading your one post, but either it was terrible luck that you found FDR or it was terrible that you went into teaching.  There would be few things as difficult to reconcile.  Maybe soldiering.  Even being a FDR-following tax collector would be easier to put together.

 

Or just treat it as a job like any other.  Show up to work, do what you are told, collect your paycheck and do what's right and enjoyable on your free time. Like most everybody.  If you can turn a few kids onto the truth on the sly, more power to you.  You can maintain two distinct identities.  You only have to hold it up for 45 years or so, then you can retire, get your pension and then die.

 

It's interesting that you are reading Gatto. He's a delight and there's probably few who attempted to do good as a PS teacher as well as he.   But, by his own admission, he failed.  He couldn't do it.  He quit because he couldn't stand hurting children anymore.  Seemingly every chapter of his books ends with an admission of tired depression.  If this giant of education couldn't take it, I'm not sure what chances I'd give you.

 

Plus, if you are true-blue FDRer, you'll eventually need to homeschool your own children to keep them from the evils of public education.  What a pickle you'll be in!

 

Best of luck in whatever you decide!

[AustinJames]

I work at a public (charter) school in the U.S., and I relish the opportunities I have to introduce objective morality and real-time relationships to as many people as I do. While I lack knowledge of the Australian school system, I can give you first-hand experience of how I have used the state system to help kids, and expose my well-meaning coworkers to peaceful alternatives in methodology.