MOTM Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Hi, does anyone have any insight or better yet wisdom on why I always sabotage myself when it comes to women. For a short background I grew up with an abusive dad in and out of jail, and a single mom who went on to marry a less abusive step dad. I wrote a summary of my failed relationships to give an idea of how I sabotaged myself. It has happened since high school but I'd have way too many stories If I included them all. 6th grade: I really liked this girl Kassy. She would gaze at me intermittently throughout the day. She complimented me constantly and was playfully touchy. (hitting/pushing) My teacher really took a liking to me for some reason and he must have noticed the flirting she was doing with me because he rearranged the class' seats and sat the two of us next to each other. I went on to never ask her out, flirt back or even show any interest in her whatsoever. Sixth grade ended, middle school started and some guy asked her out 7th grade: A couple girls flirted with me on a regular basis until I acted like an a-hole to them and turned them off. One girl actually asked me out and I turned her down because I had impossible standards for beauty at the time. 8th grade: I met this new girl. She was really nice but she wasn't particularly attractive. I liked her but objectively she was average. We developed a friendly relationship and she became attracted to me (we weren't friends outside of school). She would always come up to me and initiate conversation, she got excited to see me, fish for compliments and so forth. Again, I showed zero interest in her for some reason. She kept pushing. Freshman year came and we has some classes together and more of the same went on. Always starting random conversations with me, she took any excuse to talk to me. Sophomore year we had classes together and she showed even more interest in me. She also was getting progressively hotter throughout the years and by now every guy wanted her. She ran up to me in the hall and gave me a big hug and, in a panic, I responded with a one armed bro hug. As I walked away I saw her out of the corner of my eye throw her hands in the air. later that year I was sitting on the gym bleachers when I noticed her and her friend talking and looking at me. They walked over to me and she took a few baby steps towards me then her friend ran over and pushed her towards me. She got embarrassed, froze while looking at me, then jogged away. I did nothing and by now I was in love with this girl but too afraid to do anything. She must have gave up on me because by the end of the year she got a boyfriend and I overheard her and her friend talking about how she lost her virginity...Crushing to this day. After that we didn't have any classes together but she saw me in the halls a few months before graduation and tried to start a conversation and I cut the conversation short and blew her off. Not intentionally but I got so nervous it just happened. (I still haven't fully gotten over her. She is "the one that got away") 10th grade: My friend felt bad for me and basically told a slutty girl he knew to have sex with me. She walked up to me and asked me to go out and I declined because I wanted to lose my virginity to someone I knew. We also hung out with a girl I was into that told my friend She thought I was cute. I never made a move and she went on to blow a few guys and turned me off to her. 11th grade: This really pretty girl in my class was into me. She would stare, and compliment. Flirtatious eye contact. She would yell my name across the classroom and when I looked over she yelled "I love you" and make a heart with her hands. She made it so obvious that she liked me that I had a 100% chance of dating her if I asked. With those odds surely I'd ask right? Wrong. I worked up enough courage to walk up to her after class. I said "hey I was just wondering" At that point she locked her fingers together with fully extended arms, tilted her head down and gave me puppy dog eyes. I immediately finished with "why you looked upset today in class" instead of asking her out.
Heam Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Important for you to divulge the important metrics. Questions adjusted for 20 year old expectations: 1) how attractive are you on 1-10 scale? 2) how much money do your parents make? 3) are you in university? 1 2
Slavik Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 Hi rayamato, thank you for telling your story. Sorry to hear that, I can imagine how frustrating this must be. The common theme in all of your stories, seems to be your fear. Try reaching it, and let it "speak" what doe it say? When you imagine actually asking a girl out and then going out with her, what kind of a feeling do you get, and what are the thoughts behind it? Considering your unfortunate childhood, your parents are your template for how to be. It could very possibly be that what you saw at home, the negativity repulses you, as in you absolutely do not want to repeat the same. 1 1
MOTM Posted August 3, 2014 Author Posted August 3, 2014 Important for you to divulge the important metrics. Questions adjusted for 20 year old expectations: 1) how attractive are you on 1-10 scale? 2) how much money do your parents make? 3) are you in university? 1) 7 or 8. I'm tall (6'3"), nice bone structure, full lips. At least when I was 230lbs. I recently gave up and gained 20 pounds in 2 weeks. I used to be 320 2) not much 3) no women are attracted to me, I just can't close Hi rayamato, thank you for telling your story. Sorry to hear that, I can imagine how frustrating this must be. The common theme in all of your stories, seems to be your fear. Try reaching it, and let it "speak" what doe it say? When you imagine actually asking a girl out and then going out with her, what kind of a feeling do you get, and what are the thoughts behind it? Considering your unfortunate childhood, your parents are your template for how to be. It could very possibly be that what you saw at home, the negativity repulses you, as in you absolutely do not want to repeat the same. I'm really not sure how to answer this. If I imagine the approach I feel nothing. when it comes down to doing it I get anxiety like most people. Then I usually back out. I remember back in December I almost broke through. I thought a cashier at my local Target was cute so I made a wager with this guy I knew. I said If I didn't ask her out by that Friday I would give him $100. I memorized my lines because I knew I wouldn't be able to think on my feet. I went to the store and saw her lane was closed and she was checking out her last customer. I got in line, she didn't say anything. A group of teenage girls got in line behind me and she said "sorry I'm closed" to me and the girls. So I got out of line and pretended to browse on the shelf. I was going to ask her when she counted her register out. well she gave the customer the receipt and immediately walks away. then walks in the back room. She saw me creeping in the back and It was way too creepy for me to attempt it again with her. I have bad social skills. That's why I have no friends
Slavik Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I'm really not sure how to answer this. If I imagine the approach I feel nothing. when it comes down to doing it I get anxiety like most people. When you get anxious, what goes through your mind? What are the thoughts, try writing the down, which thought stops you from approaching? In another way "if the anxiety could speak at that moment, what would it say?"
regevdl Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I'm sorry for your troubles and thanks for being so honest in expressing some difficult experiences. Maybe I can put a 'woman's' point of view on the subject, for what it's worth. I don't want to make assumptions or accusations but it seems your mother doesn't have a really picky taste in men. This might have something to do with difficulty in finding 'the right' woman because you seem to be aware of this and not want to choose women like your mother, yet not sure what really fits your taste, maybe you haven't explored it. I actually respect how you stated your turned down certain opportunities in the reason that you didn't want to do it just for the sake of doing it, very honorable. So maybe look into yourself to explore qualities of a woman who you would want to date, attract, kiss, be physical with, etc. In each case it seems that the women were drawn or attracted to you and you either attempted to engage (or backed out) rather than you feeling anything towards them. May I ask in those cases if you would have noticed these girls/women had they not shown you that they were interested? So rather than just see who is interested in you and then decide, maybe figure out what qualities you would like in a woman (even if not perfect or wife material as you are still young) but just a starting point to build on once you acquire more experience. And once you have a sort of 'blueprint' then you might start noticing those women rather than them being invisible, if that makes sense. , if you haven't had to work hard to attract women then you are going to be more picky or it loses the 'chase' and you are possibly 'busy' in dealing with the women that are attracted to you to even sit and think what type of woman YOU would like to attract. It's like if I go shoe shopping and as soon as I enter the store, 3 saleswomen/men approach me with different shoes to try on and look I have had no time to browse or decide do I want sports shoes or heels or sandals, etc (cheezy analogy I know! lol) I am too caught up in saying NO to this sales person and telling another sales person ...sure...i'll try that on and then change my mind and such. So next time, I can think about what shoes I want BEFORE I go into the store and then browse the options, etc, try a few on that seem to match and maybe will maybe won't but will be much more manageable and I could be more confident in dealing with the 'sales people' drawn to me as far as politely declining or what-not. Best of success to you! 1) 7 or 8. I'm tall (6'3"), nice bone structure, full lips. At least when I was 230lbs. I recently gave up and gained 20 pounds in 2 weeks. I used to be 320 2) not much 3) no women are attracted to me, I just can't close 1
MOTM Posted August 3, 2014 Author Posted August 3, 2014 When you get anxious, what goes through your mind? What are the thoughts, try writing the down, which thought stops you from approaching? In another way "if the anxiety could speak at that moment, what would it say?" What goes through my mind is like the Louis CK bit. youtube.com/watch?v=UTULoJlD_V4 Especially when he goes "every thing in your body is telling you 'just go the fuck home and jerk off don't do this' " I don't want to make assumptions or accusations but it seems your mother doesn't have a really picky taste in men. This might have something to do with difficulty in finding 'the right' woman because you seem to be aware of this and not want to choose women like your mother, yet not sure what really fits your taste, maybe you haven't explored it. May I ask in those cases if you would have noticed these girls/women had they not shown you that they were interested? So rather than just see who is interested in you and then decide, maybe figure out what qualities you would like in a woman (even if not perfect or wife material as you are still young) but just a starting point to build on once you acquire more experience. And once you have a sort of 'blueprint' then you might start noticing those women rather than them being invisible, if that makes sense. , if you haven't had to work hard to attract women then you are going to be more picky or it loses the 'chase' and you are possibly 'busy' in dealing with the women that are attracted to you to even sit and think what type of woman YOU would like to attract. It's like if I go shoe shopping and as soon as I enter the store, 3 saleswomen/men approach me with different shoes to try on and look I have had no time to browse or decide do I want sports shoes or heels or sandals, etc (cheezy analogy I know! lol) I am too caught up in saying NO to this sales person and telling another sales person ...sure...i'll try that on and then change my mind and such. So next time, I can think about what shoes I want BEFORE I go into the store and then browse the options, etc, try a few on that seem to match and maybe will maybe won't but will be much more manageable and I could be more confident in dealing with the 'sales people' drawn to me as far as politely declining or what-not. Best of success to you! As for my mom's taste in men I overheard her talking with my half sisters in the other room one day about relationships. She said she loves bad boys and she'll take a bad boy over a suit and tie any day...yeah I would have noticed them even if they didn't show interest. Just like any guy If a female is present you notice her. But unlike most guys I typically don't fantasize about banging them, I usually fantasize about a relationship. Just admitting that makes me feel weird And as for my standards. I am attracted to reasonably attractive women. I'm even attracted to women that other men might not be. But I always have set my standards for women higher because I don't want to be embarrassed if she isn't hot enough for other people. I remember my mom would make fun of every flaw in every girl my older brother brought home. (after they left of course) I notice mostly every woman I see in a day. That's part of the reason I get so depressed. I see all these happy people and all I want to do is drive into oncoming traffic. (I wouldn't actually do it but I have fantasized about it.)
regevdl Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 I guess my suggestion on 'type' was geared beyond phyical attractiveness and should include the character of the woman, intelligence, humor, etc. other ways she would be attractive or desireable. Obviously if you have a range of 'looks' that are desireable to you, then great but you must also envision personality qualities, intelligence, etc that also fit into the overall. That might take more time and effort to ponder on the 'whole package' you are looking for, especially if you do think about relationship over just 'a bang'. With all respect, your mother probably felt threatened by those girls your brother brought home. If all she could do was criticize their looks but not their quality in character, then she (as in taste of men) has a poor judgment of character and then you and possibly your brother were not taught how to properly judge character in people, only focused on looks. You don't have to answer 'out loud' per say but maybe reflect back on those types of things your mom criticized about the women your brother chose....were they character or 'features' (physical or otherwise) that she lacked in herself? Also, if she criticized them after, and she whole heartedly felt that they were wrong for her own son whom she would seemingly care for his happiness and well being...why wait until after and not before/during to prevent him from being with 'bad' women? That seems a bit cruel...adding insult to injury. A loving mother would look after and warn her son of predatory women. If your brother chose a good woman but not 'pretty' enough or I am not sure what her complaints were, but then she's just being superficial and exposing qualities she lacks. She would feel threatened by strong assertive women, for example, if she is vunerable to manipulation by men and not standing up for herself. so it seems that you value her opinion too highly when she seems superficially critical and has less credibility in the choices she has made and not being able to prevent or reason with your brother in his choices (again..maybe they were good choices for him but she felt threatened by them my mirrioring qualities that she lacked). And by your valuing her opinion in high regard (knowingly or unknowingly) might be the cause in your severe hesitation with engaging in women to a certain level.
MrCapitalism Posted August 3, 2014 Posted August 3, 2014 My frame of reference is the United States. Would that schooling system be appropriate to judge your situation (eg.. 6th grade is about 11-12, 11th grade is 16-17)?
MOTM Posted August 3, 2014 Author Posted August 3, 2014 My frame of reference is the United States. Would that schooling system be appropriate to judge your situation (eg.. 6th grade is about 11-12, 11th grade is 16-17)? yes. I'm from New Jersey I guess my suggestion on 'type' was geared beyond phyical attractiveness and should include the character of the woman, intelligence, humor, etc. other ways she would be attractive or desireable. Obviously if you have a range of 'looks' that are desireable to you, then great but you must also envision personality qualities, intelligence, etc that also fit into the overall. That might take more time and effort to ponder on the 'whole package' you are looking for, especially if you do think about relationship over just 'a bang'. With all respect, your mother probably felt threatened by those girls your brother brought home. If all she could do was criticize their looks but not their quality in character, then she (as in taste of men) has a poor judgment of character and then you and possibly your brother were not taught how to properly judge character in people, only focused on looks. You don't have to answer 'out loud' per say but maybe reflect back on those types of things your mom criticized about the women your brother chose....were they character or 'features' (physical or otherwise) that she lacked in herself? Also, if she criticized them after, and she whole heartedly felt that they were wrong for her own son whom she would seemingly care for his happiness and well being...why wait until after and not before/during to prevent him from being with 'bad' women? That seems a bit cruel...adding insult to injury. A loving mother would look after and warn her son of predatory women. If your brother chose a good woman but not 'pretty' enough or I am not sure what her complaints were, but then she's just being superficial and exposing qualities she lacks. She would feel threatened by strong assertive women, for example, if she is vunerable to manipulation by men and not standing up for herself. so it seems that you value her opinion too highly when she seems superficially critical and has less credibility in the choices she has made and not being able to prevent or reason with your brother in his choices (again..maybe they were good choices for him but she felt threatened by them my mirrioring qualities that she lacked). And by your valuing her opinion in high regard (knowingly or unknowingly) might be the cause in your severe hesitation with engaging in women to a certain level. Thanks. I think you are right on some of your points. My brother is 10 years older than me so I saw this at a young age. If he was 15 with a girlfriend I was 5 and that was my reference relationships.
MysterionMuffles Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 First of all I want to say that I'm really sorry to read that you've struggled with this a lot in your formative years. Second, thank you for sharing so openly for your first topic coming here so welcome to the FDR boards! I can totally empathize with how you're feeling because I've been there before. I can tell you more about my own experience later which I hope will be helpful, but for now I want to ask: What's your relationship like with your mother? What's your history with being vulnerable and affectionate with her? Have you ever told your friends about these instances? If so, what have they said, if not, why not?
KyleC Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Hi rayamato1, It sounds like you have a real ambivalence about getting into a relationship. One the one hand you have been in the position several times of having girls you are interested in either give you clear signals of their interest or ask you out directly. And you feel you want a relationship. But on the other hand, it sounds like you feel so much fear or anxiety in the moment of expressing your interest, that you haven't gone through with it. I read all your replies, but not the other posters, so maybe this has already been said, but I think I would explore what you are afraid of might happen if you ask a girl out, or accepted her invitation. It seems you are trying to protect yourself from some consequence of getting into a relationship or checking one out. That's what the fear would be good for. But whatever that danger is, probably lies behind the fear. I can personally relate to being disappointed that I was not better able to accept and risk a closer relationships with girls I like throughout most of my public school years, so I know personally it is a very painful thing to feel.
MOTM Posted August 6, 2014 Author Posted August 6, 2014 First of all I want to say that I'm really sorry to read that you've struggled with this a lot in your formative years. Second, thank you for sharing so openly for your first topic coming here so welcome to the FDR boards! I can totally empathize with how you're feeling because I've been there before. I can tell you more about my own experience later which I hope will be helpful, but for now I want to ask: What's your relationship like with your mother? What's your history with being vulnerable and affectionate with her? Have you ever told your friends about these instances? If so, what have they said, if not, why not? - I have a pretty close relationship with my mother as far as sons go. Were not attached to each other but I spend more time with her than the average 20 year old man. - In my first few years of life it was usually just me and my mom in the house. My older brother and sister went out with friends and my dad would go on week long alcohol/heroine binges without coming home. So she kind of held me close. - Back in high school (when I had friends) they thought it was hilarious that I was a virgin. Like I said earlier one of my friends tried hooking me up with "one of his hos". They also told the main girl I liked, the one I met in 8th grade, that I wanted to talk to her. Then they walked away and left the two of us alone. I stood through about a minute or so of the most silent awkward experience of my life and just walked away without saying anything and walked back to my friends. They were disappointed in me and couldn't believe I didn't make a move. I would be willing to hear your story as well. If you don't want to post it here you could DM me. thanks Hi rayamato1, It sounds like you have a real ambivalence about getting into a relationship. One the one hand you have been in the position several times of having girls you are interested in either give you clear signals of their interest or ask you out directly. And you feel you want a relationship. But on the other hand, it sounds like you feel so much fear or anxiety in the moment of expressing your interest, that you haven't gone through with it. I read all your replies, but not the other posters, so maybe this has already been said, but I think I would explore what you are afraid of might happen if you ask a girl out, or accepted her invitation. It seems you are trying to protect yourself from some consequence of getting into a relationship or checking one out. That's what the fear would be good for. But whatever that danger is, probably lies behind the fear. I can personally relate to being disappointed that I was not better able to accept and risk a closer relationships with girls I like throughout most of my public school years, so I know personally it is a very painful thing to feel. Are you talking about a fear of success? I've heard of that before but don't really understand it. If I imagine being with a girl it seems amazing so I'm not consciously afraid of it. Maybe subconsciously but I wonder what would cause that
MysterionMuffles Posted August 6, 2014 Posted August 6, 2014 Hmm how does your mother feel about you pursuing romantic relationships? Have you talked about women with her? I don't want to assume things, but your kind of relationship with her would usually breed a co-dependance in her that makes you hard to let go of. Which in turn would make you feel like you're obligated to have her as the only woman in your life. I could be wrong, please correct me if I'm wrong. That could be what makes you fear succeeding in creating a relationship with any other woman. It certainly has been my experience that my mom clings onto me like a surrogate husband. My dad is all out of touch with his emotions, so out of all my siblings, I used to be the only one she can talk to about personal and emotional stuff, and when I would talk about women I wanted to pursue, she would have this underhanded way of trying to discourage me. She always tells me to just stay friends with them because pursuing them romantically will ruin things, but I already know that she does this because she's irritated by the fact that if I do get into a relationship and get married, I will not pass down the religious dogma she inflicted me and that I would ultimately be a better parent than her because I've completely removed the threat of violence in my future parenting toolbox. I've talked to her about my problems with my childhood and she's only proven to be unempathetic so I've stopped trying and no longer open up to be vulnerable with her. When I was a kid, I was almost like you in that I had girls I liked, but in a way I was a bit worse because they didn't even have an interest in me like they did for you. (Yeah I'll try not to make this a victimization competition). And how could they when every time I was around pretty girls, I would just goof off and act all zany to get attention instead of being authentic? Actually...when I was in grade 3 I started watching Sailor Moon and somehow a girl in my class and I started talking about it and became friends. It was too uncomfortable for me to experience a reciprocal relationship with a female because my mom had given me a bad modeling for what a relationship with a female would entail: shaming, guilt tripping, diminishing of self esteem. I didn't experience any of those from the girl I became friends with and we would even play jump rope together at recess. All until of course I wanted to assert my boyhood by beating up kids that were younger than me and I lost that girl's respect. When I was a teenager I started becoming a bit more comfortable around girls and was able to have them as friends at least. There was one that I liked, let's call her Kelly. She was a year younger than me so when she came to my school, I'd see her around the halls and develop a crush on her. I was always too afraid to go up to girls and just talk to them unless they were already friends of friends. Otherwise, I had no problem because I could just drop into the conversation smoothly instead of trying to come up with a topic. Anyway, her and I became friends because a mutual friend set me up on an MSN chat with her. I gained some comfortability in talking to her through instant messaging and then soon started hanging out with her in person. And oh just like my mother instilled the self fulfilling prophecy in me, I started pursuing Kelly romantically and I just became different. I goofed off and acted weird to show that, but really that was just a way of ensuring that my mom's bomb in my brain would go off and when it would detonate, it would reinforce the idea for me that I shouldn't go for girls romantically because it'll ruin the friendship. It wasn't until I was in grade 12 where I had the confidence to sit down with an attractive girl in my class, let's call her Stephanie. For the first few weeks of school I thought she was really gorgeous, but she was often chatty with the boys surrounding her so I would step off. At some point the teacher made her sit on her own because of being too chatty, and since I didn't like anyone in that class, I sat alone too. One day I decided to just go over to Stephanie and strike up a conversation and it was an instant connection. We made each other laugh, she became my best friend, and although she was the one I was highly attracted to, I settled for her friend who was shy and a bit of an emotional trainwreck. Let's call her Elizabeth. Elizabeth came from a very abusive household and very very long story short, I used her to avoid myself as I found myself sacrificing my time and energy to make her happy instead of doing that for myself first. I would bet a million dollars I don't have yet that if I was a more emotionally healthy place, I would have asked Stephanie out instead. She was bubbly and energetic as opposed to sad and depressing. She was also a whole lot more whacky fun to talk to. I used to be madly in love with until we broke contact almost completely due to natural circumstances. So the point I'm trying to get at here is...do you feel like you deserve it to begin with? My problem was that I didn't think I was enough in order to deserve the romantic gestures of a woman. I mean I've had flings throughout high school up until grade 12 where I finally hit my stride by dating 3 different girls within that year, but those flings didn't turn into a relationships because I was taught that I wouldn't deserve it, and that in fact I would ruin it. I don't know if my story is of any help to you, but recounting these things have developed some questions for you: Do you feel that you're enough? Do you love you? Are there any bombs in your brain that your mother have planted in there that might contribute to your fears? Do you know what you're looking for in a woman? Do you know what you want to offer to a woman? Do you even feel like you can offer anything? Does your level of authenticity change when you're around women? What is your level of authenticity in general? 1
MOTM Posted August 7, 2014 Author Posted August 7, 2014 I may have been giving off the wrong impression. I don't think I have a codependent relationship with my mom. I live at home but I don't spend much time with her. Me, her and my younger brother go out to eat together maybe once a month and I'll watch tv with them a couple times a month. I spend the overwhelming majority of my time alone. As far as your story goes I can relate as far as my mom attaching to me at a young age. But I never talked to her about relationships or anything like that. But your story sounds terrible. It seems like every time I hear a story on this board or the call in show it's more horrific than the last. I'm not sure if everyone in the world had a bad childhood and I should just get over it or what. By the way, the girl you liked in 12th grade sounds a lot like the girl I never got over. Bubbly, friendly, fun, nice, beautiful and so forth. To answer your questions: - It depends really. Some days I feel optimistic and others I feel like my life is going nowhere but down from here and I'm already in a low place. I always have this underlying feeling like everyone is older than me. If a 15 year old kid has had sex before I look at him as if he is older than me. I don't let it show but I do feel less than. - In the past I hated myself. Now after I lost a lot of weight I hate myself less. - Not sure - Ideally I want a woman who has the ability to let me be the man, can cook, is kind, is on line with my level of geekyness, and who is a virgin. (yes I know women my age are not virgins and usually can't cook. At least not in the tri-state area) - I used to want to be all mushy and lovey dovey but after so much time has gone by I've become cold and now I want to offer them a more dominant personality. Let me be clear, that does not mean abusive, It means treating her like she wants to be treated. Like I'm better than her and I have a plan. Being assertive and sure of myself. What I call the Patrice O'Neal system - Usually I get weird around women. Like I said, I'm working on not letting myself get too soft because that's my natural tendency. But the usual awkward stuff. When I was in High school I used to be a pizza maker. One of the counter girls (my age) said "hey Ray, whats up" and I responded with a shrug and a very slow raise of my hand that turned into a wave. No words. She responded with a confused "heeey". Might be the most awkward thing I've done in my life and that's saying something. - I'm quiet when I meet someone. Once I get to know them I talk a bit too much, to compensate for something I don't know. I become annoying and they don't want to be around me. I know I do it but in the moment I can't help it. 1
cobra2411 Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 First let me say hats off for sharing your story. One of the things I don't think was touched on was the concept of virginity. In my opinion it's an outdated idea. The idea that you're a lowly virgin then after one specific sexual act you're not. It doesn't make sense. As you get older you loose the naivety of youth and you begin to understand in an adult way what sex is. So if you're worried about being a virgin, don't be. When the idea of sex enters into the equation you can simply say you don't have a lot of experience. Later you can say that you actually don't have any experience; but you look forward to learning.
Bouncelot Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Thanks for sharing your story! About you comment on "It seems like every time I hear a story on this board or the call in show it's more horrific than the last. I'm not sure if everyone in the world had a bad childhood and I should just get over it or what." I think allot of people have had issues, and each case is unique, but we can learn from others experiences, and maybe help our own lives make sense to us. Like you have done here. Don't swallow, don't bury, because to you its real, and its important. I had similar experiences, I was in my early 30s when I had my first "date". Unlike you I was never chased, I was not unattractive or anything, just never caught the interest of women around me. Other then the drunk groping and surprise kisses from older, very drunk women in random bars. I spent allot of years trying to understand "what was wrong with me(?)", I had normal drives and interests, and a very active libido, but could not form that connection. I was confident, had no issues talking to women, and had many female friends; but still nothing... Over time I came to realize a few things and made peace with it all. - In some cases quality of the women I was meeting did not match my own. On the one side I had my hormones raging, and I desperately wanted to make a connection, and find someone. But in truth, there was always a little voice that knew they were not for me, and kept me from going further. - I had allot of shit going on, my parents were dragging me down, I was trying to start my life with 0 support (in any capacity). If anything it was like being a 20yo parrent of 2 50yo teenagers, and a younger sibling that also needed help. so my plate was "full". And even though I wanted a relationship, I think on some level I would not be able to finish anything I started... Not until I shrugged. - Wrapped up in all this was the fact that even though on the outside I looked like I had my shit in order, I felt great about my self, I was making my way in the world, I was moving up and out..... It was in part a lie, and deep down I knew it. I knew I could not start anything real until I got my head strait. Friends used to tell me I was too picky, that my criteria were too high. The truth was; I wanted something "real", I did not want an endless series of meaningless relationships, and in truth, with everything going on in my life, I understood that the that I could not handle the emotional roller coaster that is inevitable with "bad matches" I did not have the benefit of Freedomain. I ended up de-foo'ing almost 10 years before I found this sight. And spent the the time since then bringing balance back to my life. This place is absolutely wonderful, and with its help I am sure you can discover what is holding you back. We are here for you!
Free Will Posted August 8, 2014 Posted August 8, 2014 Hi Ray! Thank you so much for sharing. I fully empathize man. I had almost the exact same experience in school. My situation may be worse by your standard, because I am a 24 year old virgin and in the past I also had that feeling of being less of a man or less mature for not having sex with the girls who offered it to me. You posted in the right section. Self Knowledge is the method to get your answer..I have been pondering this exact question since I was 14 maybe even younger, but I never came to any accurate conclusions until I found the FDR conversation on youtube...I'm new here too! After listening for about 3 years now, to me, the answer seems so clear as to why I sabatoged my romantic relationships. But I also would like some feedback in this regard just in case I am totally off base. I Haven't trusted anyone I know to talk openly about this, so I may be missing something. I was also going to post on this exact topic, but I dont want to Hijack your thread...so please somebody let me know if I should start a new one I think Rainbow Jamz's questions are the type that should be asked. My questions to you Ray that I hope will be helpful: Have you read On truth the Tryanny of Illusion and or Real time Relationships? What is your definition of love? I also noticed a contradiction when you answered Rainbow's questions and then responded to his next comments and questions. I think this may be relavent and a connection to your self sabatoge..I can point it out if you like...can you see it? Have you listened to many listener call in shows? Somebody please correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the method for learning about the self to ask questions and either be honest or then try to find contradictions in thinking? I am a newb. Last thing I will say for now is that your virginity makes you more valuable as a partner not less of a man. This could be my own bias though. ; )
MysterionMuffles Posted August 9, 2014 Posted August 9, 2014 What was the contradiction to the answer of my questions, Free Will?
Free Will Posted August 9, 2014 Posted August 9, 2014 First he said - I have a pretty close relationship with my mother as far as sons go. Were not attached to each other but I spend more time with her than the average 20 year old man. Then he said.. But I never talked to her about relationships or anything like that. . I live at home but I don't spend much time with her. Me, her and my younger brother go out to eat together maybe once a month and I'll watch tv with them a couple times a month. I spend the overwhelming majority of my time alone. 1
MrCapitalism Posted August 9, 2014 Posted August 9, 2014 I had asked the question about the ages of the girls involved because I had a theory that some of these sexual experiences were happening at way too early of an age to be healthy, but I don't think I can really make that case on further thought. Some of the stuff is easy, like you having crappy friends which tried to hook you up with an obviously damaged sexually promiscuous girl. Some of the girls in your history also have been, in my experience, unusually aggressive in their pursuit of you.My new theory as to why you are so shy around these girls is because you are afraid of their sexuality, and of yours. Thanks for giving the important bits of your family history, as this I think supports that hypothesis. For a short background I grew up with an abusive dad in and out of jail, and a single mom who went on to marry a less abusive step dad. I think you quickly recognized that your mother's sexual choices have been completely destructive to your upbringing.So when you see young girls expressing their sexuality towards you, you immediately see just how incredibly dangerous that can be, and retreat in fear. If the targets of your mothers lust were criminals and abusers (don't know what 'crimes' your father supposedly committed, or why your mother left him), you could perhaps believe that these young girls must judge you as that type of man. Also, your stories didn't include any of these girls expressing any curiosity or empathy for you shutting down when subjected to their advances. They seemed to all just quickly give up in frustration, none of them put any effort into ",getting you in the mood." I'm sure you've all been taught that all men are closet rapists who will exploit any attractive women for sex whenever the opportunity arises. So they basically get pissed off and assume that you're 'broken' because you don't respond in this way, when their advances were met with fear and suspicion. I think you've taken the position that any women who you have the hots for is a potentially shitty mom, until she proves to you otherwise. Good for you for not kissing them!
MOTM Posted August 10, 2014 Author Posted August 10, 2014 thanks for sharing your story. I feel your pain on this issue I haven't read either of those. I'm not sure if I believe in romantic love anymore. It could be something that you have to experience before you can describe it. I've been infatuated before but I'm smart enough now to know I was in lust more than anything because I didn't really know them. And the first girl I ever "loved" was a pretty terrible person who knew I liked her but led me on and abused my kindness. I listened to almost every show since I started listening over a year and a half ago. I didn't contradict myself but I might have been unclear. I don't have a creepy overly attached relationship with my mom but I do have a closer relationship with her than other men my age. Most men my age are out all the time and never see their moms because they're busy with friends, girlfriends, school, work, and so forth. I spend more time than the average but that's not saying much. I think you should start a new tread so it is focused on you. It would be a lot less confusing and more people would probably read it. I'm interested in your story. I have to disagree with you on your last point. There is two different standards for men and women. Many feminists are quick to point out that women who have a lot of sex are "sluts" and men who have a lot of sex are "pimps". They fail to mention that women who don't have sex are "pure" and more desirable while men who don't have sex are "weird"and less desirable. Women want a man who is wanted. Its why so many men complain about women all of a sudden showing interest in them after they get married.
Free Will Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I highly recommend those books. They are about this topic. Here is the link to On Truth...I think I have heard Stef recommend reading it before RTR. I have never experienced it with a women, that is one of the reasons I think I have never had sex. What MrCapitalism said directly applies to me in many ways. What do you think of his theory? The contradiction is that, if you have a pretty good relationship with your mother, then why don't you talk with her about relationships that are important to you? why do you think you have sabotaged your relationships?
MOTM Posted August 10, 2014 Author Posted August 10, 2014 On some level I was afraid of their sexuality. I was afraid of sex at least but that was because I had never done it before so inexperience and anxiety go hand and hand. I'm not sure on this one because its entirely possible that I just don't realize it. I definitely don't feel that those girls looked at me like my father because I was a nice guy and my dad wasn't. He was an alcoholic/drug addict who would beat my mom. He didn't hit me (per se) as far as I can remember. I think you're dead on as to why the girls got frustrated in me and gave up. Though I probably wouldn't have asked them out no matter how long they flirted with me. Like I said, I was brought up by a single mother so I have female tendencies when it comes to relationships. I'm more emotional than most men and I look for a connection in a relationship like most women. I'm also not naturally the type to make the first move like most women. I think a good way to describe it is like I'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body. Because I'm still attracted to women but I act like a bitch. Thanks for the link. I'm pretty busy lately but I'll try to listen to it as soon as I get a 3 hour block of time open. I don't talk to my mom about relationships because that's awkward. Plus she has had nothing but bad relationship after bad relationship, I don't think she should be my mentor on this. I'm really not sure why exactly. I just don't think I ever had the verbal skills or self esteem
Free Will Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 . I just don't think I ever had the verbal skills or self esteem That might explain why you don't approach women now, but it doesn't explain why you rejected the girls in your past. Does it make sense to you that the anxiety and nervousness you experienced was telling you that you were in a dangerous situation? That the girls were likely only interested in you because of your looks? That by not showing empathy towards you or trying to get to know you, they did not exhibit the qualities of a caring partner or loving future mom? That by having sex with them, you would have been putting yourself and perhaps the life of a baby into a potentially abusive relationship? Have you gotten any useful insight from the responses so far? 1
MOTM Posted August 20, 2014 Author Posted August 20, 2014 I'm not sure I thought about it that deeply. In the case of the girl that I repeatedly rejected for years in a row as she kept trying, we had a friendly relationship where we had conversations before she showed attraction towards me and before I became exceptionally attracted to her. All of the responded have been helpful so far. Even if they weren't 100% correct it forced me to view this issue from some new angles.
MrCapitalism Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 I'm not sure I thought about it that deeply. I think his argument is that, yes, you did not actively think about these things; however you still experienced the lack of empathy and processed these conclusions, even if you didn't know that you were doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHDOgcOkDao
LandoRamone30 Posted August 27, 2014 Posted August 27, 2014 I would suggest you say what you feel. Yell it out. " I like you alot Mindy!!!!! " Yes, you will feel vulnerable. You just expressed your feels openly to someone you liked romantically and do not know if you will be received in kind. In my experience I just say it. I make my self emotionally vulnerable. Sometimes I will get a response like. “ Thank you for your candor but I am involved.” It is not the response I wanted but it was honest. I like to say in early before I get to attached it reduces the hurts from rejection.
MysterionMuffles Posted August 29, 2014 Posted August 29, 2014 OH! I just remembered the perfect podcast that got me on the path of valuing myself in terms of romantic relationships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuXO_zWLEbE I've listened to this one so many times. Hilarious intro and very valuable stuff!
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