The Conflict In Gaza

[ThoseWhoStayUofM]

Recently Stefan made a video about the truth regarding the Israel and Palestine conflict.  I was wondering if anybody, Stefan included, could make a reaction to the video below based upon the information presented in that video, as well as any outside information that may not have been covered.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0I may have a lot of bias, as Pat Condell almost certainly does, but I fail to see any faults in his reasoning here.  Perhaps the only fault is his failure to recognize Israeli aggression within the conflict, but at no point should that excuse the blatant immorality of Hamas.Although the truth videos are very informative, I find dialectical discourse to be the best form of achieving truth.

[jacbot]

I posted the same video in another thread, Pat is awesome,

[cab21]

that sounds statists

 

 

that because there is no "state" another "state" can just go in and take the land and have a socialist state where the state owns the land?

 

if people want the land, they can buy it in capitalism, rather that some statist takeover like a UN created state.

[LovePrevails]

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Recently Stefan made a video about the truth regarding the Israel and Palestine conflict.  I was wondering if anybody, Stefan included, could make a reaction to the video below based upon the information presented in that video, as well as any outside information that may not have been covered.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ugsv5u-sW0I may have a lot of bias, as Pat Condell almost certainly does, but I fail to see any faults in his reasoning here.  Perhaps the only fault is his failure to recognize Israeli aggression within the conflict, but at no point should that excuse the blatant immorality of Hamas.Although the truth videos are very informative, I find dialectical discourse to be the best form of achieving truth.

 

The cold shower of truth

may be unpleasant 

for the intellectually dishonest among us

but it is the best medicine

for their moral health.

 

 

that sounds statists

 

 

that because there is no "state" another "state" can just go in and take the land and have a socialist state where the state owns the land?

 

if people want the land, they can buy it in capitalism, rather that some statist takeover like a UN created state.

 

I'm glad that you point land acquisition as a legitimate source of gaining ownership

because this is exactly what happened.

 

Every piece of land settled by jews today was rightfully purchased

from its former turkish or arab owner

many times more than once as there were occasionally more than one claimnet tom the same piece of land.

[cab21]

I'm glad that you point land acquisition as a legitimate source of gaining ownership

because this is exactly what happened.

 

Every piece of land settled by jews today was rightfully purchased

from its former turkish or arab owner

many times more than once as there were occasionally more than one claimnet tom the same piece of land.

 

plenty of proof that is wrong.

plenty still with their ownership papers, but not allowed on the land

isreal settlements are being made on land not bought, they are making a wall inside land they have not bought

 

some land has been rightfully bought, other land has not.

 

there have been settlements isreal originaly even said was illegal, then they made legal without any buying of the land taken over

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

plenty of proof that is wrong.

plenty still with their ownership papers, but not allowed on the land

isreal settlements are being made on land not bought, they are making a wall inside land they have not bought

 

some land has been rightfully bought, other land has not.

 

there have been settlements isreal originaly even said was illegal, then they made legal without any buying of the land taken over

 

You are confusing things.

An illegal settlement is almost always built on rightfully owned property

The only problem is usually zoning laws.

 

All lawful land claims are respected in Israel.

You may wan to consult the relevant Wikipedia entry 

before launching false accusations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_land_and_property_laws 

 

There are a few arabs who had abandoned their property during the independence war

and their property was seized.

From the other hand there are many more jews of arab descent which were deported from their home countries

after Israel had won the war of independence and their property was seized.

I assume that as a part of a comprehensive peace treaty both groups will be compensated.

 

By the way the main reason for the exodus of arab residents from Israel

was to free the hands of the invading arab armies

to indiscriminately kill jewish citizens & soldiers alike.

 

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Israeli_position

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Property_losses_and_compensation

 

[LovePrevails]

Every piece of land settled by jews today was rightfully purchased

from its former turkish or arab owner

many times more than once as there were occasionally more than one claimnet tom the same piece of land.

 

 

What a blatant lie. When Israel was created 700,000 Palestinians were run out of their homes.

There are still jews living in houses that were taken by force from their occupiers.

 

You have already acknowledged that you believe Israel belongs to jews simply by right of birth, regardless of where they were born.

So your credibility is under question.

[J-William]

 

gee gosh golly, I guess he wasn't banned, he just disappeared for a while and pretended to be banned.....

 

[PGP]

http://memoirsofanamnesic.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/the-necessity-of-virtue-jordan-b-peterson/

"And it turns out that it’s not that difficult generally to put people in a situation, normal people, where they’ll do something that really doesn’t look very good. Those of you who are familiar with psychology know about the Milgram experiments, for example. You know about the Zimbardo prison experiments: you take perfectly normal college students and put them into a situation that they know is a dramatic farce, they know isn’t real, give some of them the power of prison guards and make some others arbitrarily into prisoners and in three days you have to shut the whole experiment down because the prison guards have turned into Nazis and they’re enjoying torturing the prisoners even though they know (whatever know means) that they’re innocent.

That says something about the manner in which people conduct their existence. They’re very susceptible to malevolent action.

If you look at Genesis, a very old book, a very influential book. There’s a strange sequence of events that befalls Adam and Eve. It’s in two sentences. A snake gives them an apple. And that wakes them up. Well, there’s a good book by a southern California primatologist that was just published last year that suggested the reason that humans have such great vision, way better than most animals except for raptors (birds), is because our visual systems were designed to detect predatory snakes. And the way she discovered that was by comparing the populations of predatory snakes around the world to the visual acuity of the primate groups that lived in those areas. And what she found was essentially a one to one correspondence.

Our visual system, which is the ability to see, and to be enlightened let’s say (because enlightenment for example is associated with vision) – the snake gave that to us because we had to pay attention to predatory things that were after us for tens of millions of years."

[cab21]

 

Opening of archives

In the 1980s Israel and United Kingdom opened up part of their archives for investigation by historians. This favored a more critical and factual analysis of the 1948 events. As a result more detailed and comprehensive description of the Palestinian exodus was published, notably Morris' The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.^[5] Morris distinguishes four waves of refugees, the second, third and fourth of them coinciding with Israeli military offensives, when Arab Palestinians fled the fighting, were frightened away, or were expelled.

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

• Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
• The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
• Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
• Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].
• Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
• Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
• Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.
• The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.
• Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].
• Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
• Various local factors and general fear of the future.^[6]

"In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations (concerning the cause of the Nakba) triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”^[7]

 

 

so this report from that wiki, has a report attributing the number 1 reason people fled was because of direct hostile operations against arab settlements.

[LovePrevails]

anyone living under the conditions the palestinians are living under would have the kind of response the palestinians are having

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Normen Finkelstein makes a living from bashing Israel

while his patrons hope to use his jewish origins

in order to make his hate speech sound less anti semitic.

 

Here are the words of women which has everything to lose and nothing to gain from speaking the trouth

 

 

 

so this report from that wiki, has a report attributing the number 1 reason people fled was because of direct hostile operations against arab settlements.

 

 

It is written explicitly at that wiki 

that the weight of each reason is still distputed.

 

From what I know from personal experiences I've heard from veterans

in practice, each regional commander had its own policy.

For example, in Haifa the mayor (which was a hard core socialist/communist)

begged the arab residents to stay

but they preferred to leave to lebenaon 

and wait there for a few months until the arab armies will accomplish their plans

which also included NAZI-style physical extermination of jews.

 

 

In order to put the Palestinian & jewish exodus in context

I would like to note that every similar conflict involved population exchange:

1. The greek turkish conflict

2. The indian/Pakistani conflict.

 

 

anyone living under the conditions the palestinians are living under would have the kind of response the palestinians are having

 

This is essentially a communist/feminist style remark.

 

It alleviates the responsibility from the palestinians

and puts all the blame on the jews/Israelis.

 

Pat Condell is saying that it is the jews which are pro-peace, pro-democracy, pro-freedom.

 

It is the jews that set the world record in protecting civil population

in conflict zones.

 

It is time for the arabs to face the facts, recognise their mistakes and better their ways 

and as a by product, better their lives (& the lives of their neighbours).

[LovePrevails]

Recently Stefan made a video about the truth regarding the Israel and Palestine conflict.  I was wondering if anybody, Stefan included, could make a reaction to the video below based upon the information presented in that video, as well as any outside information that may not have been covered.

 

Yes, my response is: this guy is one of those ill-informed idiots who unfortunately thinks his opinion is the law without doing any research

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Yes, my response is: this guy is one of those ill-informed idiots who unfortunately thinks his opinion is the law without doing any research

 

I've listened to the initial 1:28 seconds of this video

and found two grave errors

so I stopped the video.

 

1. I've presented in the forum evidence that Hams uses its own population as human shields.

Hence, the video producer loses all credibility by denying that.

2. He mentones correctly that several ceasefires crumbled

but he fails to report that Israel had accepted and complied with all ceasefire

and the sole blame for their failure was Hamas 

which in fact fired both on soldiers and jewish civilians during the ceasefire.

 

CONCLUSION:

It is very easy to find people critical of Israel.

Jews were never the most popular kid in class.

What anti-zionist lack most is reason, evidence and only too often

understanding that jews are human beings 

and as such have rights to life, property and pursuit of happiness.

[PGP]

 

and as such have rights to life, property and pursuit of happiness.

Nobody has the right to life, property and the pursuit of happiness in this situation. It is win/lose. 

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Nobody has the right to life, property and the pursuit of happiness in this situation. It is win/lose. 

I rest my case.

[PGP]

I rest my case.

You didn't have a case in the first place. You had a justification for murder. To legitimise it. If you class this as "your case", then I am glad you have given it up. 

You can justify all of this stuff til the end of time if you want, it won't salve your conscience. It is your life and YOU have to live it. Trying to rationalise your hell as heaven will only delay the day, if it ever comes for you, when you can have any self-respect.

[LovePrevails]