Please explain the Israel/Palestine conflict

[pretzelogik]

 

Yes, but it is not their's to begin with.

 

If your neighbour steals your TV set 

and "homesteads" it by connecting it to XBOX

he doesn't become  a legitimate owner.

 

 

 

I don't really know

and it doesn't really matter.

 

Conversion in Judaism 

is both to the religion and to the nation.

 

I believe (but I don't really know) that in Islam it is also like that.

 

 

 

US covers about 4% of the Israeli government budget.

This is not a significant contribution

and it cost us a part of our indpendence.

 

For example, in the last Gaza operation

the US pushed for a ceasefire before Gaza strip was cleared of rockets.

This makes the next round inevitable 

which in turn means that all the IDF soldiers casualties died in vain.

 

Therefore, it is my personal opinion

that it would be best for Israel to stop receiving foreign aid from US

and have a relationships of equals with the US.

 

BTW, under anarchy 

it would be harder to exert inter-national pressure on Israel

as there would be no single contact point

and the various PDAs can shift the responsibility  for any action in a circle

(i.e. PDA 1 on PDA2, PDS2 on PDA 3 & PDA 3 on PDA 1...)

 

 

 

What evidence do you rely on to state that a particular parcel of land was in possession of a particular group of people at a particular time?  Was Abraham the first person to ever inhabit the entirety of what is now know as Israel?

 

In the case of a conflict between two Israelis, how is the highest claim decided?  Say if an American Jew were to emigrate to Tel Aviv , would he have an automatic right to beach front property if no one was living on it?  Is there such a thing as a real estate market in Israel?  How does one Jew have a right to "sell" land to another Jew if it is all owned collectively?

 

You have used the term "anti-Semitic" several times.  Can someone be opposed to the actions of a particular person of Jewish heritage without being "anti-Semitic"?

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

What evidence do you rely on to state that a particular parcel of land was in possession of a particular group of people at a particular time?  Was Abraham the first person to ever inhabit the entirety of what is now know as Israel?

 

 

I do not have to assume the existance of AVRAHAM to establish the jewish claim to ERETZ YISRAEL.

 

Israel was continuously homesteaded by the Israelite people from time immemorial until today.

Obiously, Roman, byzantian, arab & turkish persecutions have limited their number of roaming space

but at no point did the jewish people relinquished its claim on ERETZ YISRAEL. 

 

 

 

In the case of a conflict between two Israelis, how is the highest claim decided?  Say if an American Jew were to emigrate to Tel Aviv , would he have an automatic right to beach front property if no one was living on it?  Is there such a thing as a real estate market in Israel?  How does one Jew have a right to "sell" land to another Jew if it is all owned collectively?

 

It is only the allodial title which is owned in communion 

every particular piece of land may be held

by a specific set of people

(which may or may not be jewish).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

 

 

This is similar to the concept of tenet in common

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Tenancy+in+Common

The main differences are:

1. Tennancy should be replaced with allodial title

2. The set of owners is the whole jewish people.

 

There is a real estate market in Israel.

What I described above is my personal opinion 

and it doesn't reflect the legal state in Israel.

 

I believe that you'll find the property law in Israel

to be very similar in essence to the law in your own country.

 

 

You have used the term "anti-Semitic" several times.  Can someone be opposed to the actions of a particular person of Jewish heritage without being "anti-Semitic"?

 

My accusation, is that underlying anti Semitic leanings

cause some people to believe in half-troughts and/or outright lies

much more easily than they would

if those fallacies were ascribed to other poeple.

They would be less likely to double check the allegations,

blow them out of proportion and

be harder to be persuaded  to the contrary.

 

I believe that the reason is that it provides a rationalization

to their enmity they feel towards the jewish people. 

 

In a sense, this is my main point in the whole thread.

[pretzelogik]

These answers are non-responsive.

 

"time immemorial" is an assertion, not evidence.

 

Common ownerships is mutually exclusive of individual ownership.  Experience of siblings squabbling over a property bequeathed by inheritance is demonstration.

 

How is it possible to be "anti-Semitic" when the definition of Semite is so nebulous?  It cannot be determined by blood, it is conversion to a "nation" which is a concept, or a religion, which is interpreted in as many ways as there are people that presume to practice it.  I have Jewish friends who do not observe dietary customs, attend temple or dress in any manner that would indicate to anyone who does not know them that they are Jewish.  I often see others dressed in ways that identify them as such.  From your earlier statements, I could undergo some transformation process whereby I could be accepted as a Jew and would immediately have a right to emigrate to Gaza and forcibly remove someone from their house.

 

None of this makes any sense to me.

[gausian]

They are entitled to claim their case in an Israeli court of law. I find it suspicious that Israelis would use a palestinian men as human shieldknowing fully well how little value life has in the eyes of Hamas.

Please answer my question, is or was the IDF using palestinians as human shields?The answer should be simple, yes or no.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Please answer my question, is or was the IDF using palestinians as human shields?The answer should be simple, yes or no.

 

How would I know?

 

I can only guess

and I guess not

from the reasons I've provided above.

If I'm wrong and there is evidence to the contrary,

than they will be trailed and punished.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

asdf

 

 

These answers are non-responsive.

 

"time immemorial" is an assertion, not evidence.

 

 

Do you deny the long jewish presence in Israel?

 

Some basic material on this may be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

 

Common ownerships is mutually exclusive of individual ownership.  Experience of siblings squabbling over a property bequeathed by inheritance is demonstration.

 

Common property does have its disadvantages.

 

 

How is it possible to be "anti-Semitic" when the definition of Semite is so nebulous?  It cannot be determined by blood, it is conversion to a "nation" which is a concept, or a religion, which is interpreted in as many ways as there are people that presume to practice it.  I have Jewish friends who do not observe dietary customs, attend temple or dress in any manner that would indicate to anyone who does not know them that they are Jewish.  I often see others dressed in ways that identify them as such.  From your earlier statements, I could undergo some transformation process whereby I could be accepted as a Jew and would immediately have a right to emigrate to Gaza and forcibly remove someone from their house.

 

None of this makes any sense to me.

 

excellent question,

but it should be addressed to the anti semites

not me.

 

I was surprised to learn that there even exist anti semitism in Korea!

http://thediplomat.com/2014/05/why-is-south-korea-so-anti-semitic/

 

Obviously, the jewish and Korean civilisations had no contact through history.

 

 

From your earlier statements, I could undergo some transformation process whereby I could be accepted as a Jew and would immediately have a right to emigrate to Gaza and forcibly remove someone from their house.

 

Well, this wouldn't be a very nice thing to do.

wouldn't it? :-)

 

I said that the allodial title belongs to the jewish people

The holder of the property may be anyone: a jew, an arab an alien from mars 

or any other sentient life form.

 

Everyone are allowed to hold property in Israel, and rightfully so.

There are even citizens of enemy states which own land in Israel.

[gausian]

How would I know? I can only guessand I guess notfrom the reasons I've provided above.If I'm wrong and there is evidence to the contrary,than they will be trailed and punished.

But you have no problem using this argument against hamas?

[PGP]

 

 

 

 

 

Do you deny the long jewish presence in Israel?

 

A reference once more to Prof Sand seminal work on the fiction of the jewish historical tie to the land currently called israel. Is he anti-semitic also?

BTW, you have almost exclusively refused to respond to my comments. The height of ignorance.

 

Found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

Book summary[edit]

Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply didn't happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Diaspora is essentially a modern invention. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued until Christianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE.^[23]

Jewish origins[edit]

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed, and that just as most Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Jews are also descended from converts. According to Sand, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion, and mass conversions to Judaism occurred among the Khazars in the Caucasus, Berbertribes in North Africa, and in the Himyarite Kingdom on the Arabian Peninsula.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt.^[23] The Romans permitted most Jews to remain in the country. Rather, the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."^[24] Following the Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, many Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the Arab conquerors. Sand concludes that these converts are the ancestors of the contemporary Palestinians.^[25]

Jewish peoplehood[edit]

Sand's explanation of the birth of the "myth" of a Jewish people as a group with a common, ethnic origin has been summarized as follows: "[a]t a certain stage in the 19th century intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people. From historian Heinrich Graetz on, Jewish historians began to draw the history of Judaism as the history of a nation that had been a kingdom, became a wandering people and ultimately turned around and went back to its birthplace."^[23]

In this, Sand writes, they were similar to other nationalist movements in Europe at the time that sought the reassurance of a Golden Age in their past to prove they have existed as a separate people since the beginnings of history. Jewish people found theirs in what he calls "the mythical Kingdom of David". Before this invention, he says, Jews thought of themselves as Jews because they shared a common religion, not a common ethnic background.^[23]

Return from exile, Zionism[edit]

Sand believes that the idea of Jews being obliged to return from exile to the Promised Land was alien to Judaism before the birth of Zionism, and that the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. On the contrary, for 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem because their religion forbade them from returning until the Messiah came. According to Sand, the ancestry of Central and Eastern European Jews stems heavily from mediæval Turkic Khazars who were converted to Judaism, a theory which was popularized in a book written by Arthur Koestler in 1976.^[26]

Overall intent of the book[edit]

Sand explained during a newspaper interview his reasons for writing the book: "I wrote the book for a double purpose. First, as an Israeli, to democratise the state; to make it a real republic. Second, I wrote the book against Jewish essentialism."^[27]

Sand explained in the same interview that what he means by 'Jewish essentialism' is, in the words of the interviewer, "the tendency in modern Judaism to make shared ethnicity the basis for faith."^[27] "That is dangerous and it nourishes antisemitism. I am trying to normalise the Jewish presence in history and contemporary life," Sand said.^[27]

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

But you have no problem using this argument against hamas?

There are independent evidence To Hamas use of Arab civilian population As human shieldsWhich I've already posted aboveBut anyway, here they are:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

PGP,

I liked the fact that you called Sand's work seminal

just because it suits your opinon.

I consider it to be garbage.

 

SUMMARY:

 

His main thesis is that the jews had descend from the Khazars rather than the ancient hebrews

and therefore they have no claim in the land of Israel.

 

This assertion is wrong from several reasons:

1. There is genetic evidence that modern jews descend from the ancient hebrews and not from the khazars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jewsa

2. A conversion to judaism is also to the nation and involves adoption by a jewish family

therefore converts also inherit the land of Israel,

just as if you owned a house you could choose to inherit it also to your adopted children.

 

I would like to stress that not even Sand denies that the ancient hebrews live in ERETZ YISRAEL

and homesteaded the land.

 

ELABORATION:

 

I have a lot of criticism for hist work

but first a little background on the person:

 

Sand is a an historian specialising in the history of France.

 He is also an avid communist.

In fact, he was expelled from the Israeli Communist Party

because he criticised it for lacking a concrete revolutionary plan

to establish a Communist regime in Israel.

After the expulsion he joined MATZPEN the most radical communist organisation

ever to be established in Israel.

Obviously, MATZPEN was also anti-zionist.

As you can see Sand is a real gem.

 

From a professional point of view, Sand is ignorant of any knowledge in biology in general and genetics in particular.

In fact, he can't even understand the articles on the genetic research into the roots of the modern jewish people

nor does he has the expertise in the history of the jewish people at ancient time.

This has not stopped him from writing a book on the topic.

Did I mention that he is a gem?

 

Sand likes to present himself as a myth beaker therefore he invents false narratives in his book only to "smash" them a few pages later.

Prof. Bartal from the hebrew university had criticised him on that.

 

Even more severely, the genetic evidence disproves his assertions

as I pointed above.

To this he responded by saying that he is an historian of ideas and not of facts.

That is, following the long communist tradition, why ruin a "nice" theory simply because it can't be settled with the facts?

Saind is a gem two point O.

[gausian]

There are independent evidence To Hamas use of Arab civilian population As human shieldsWhich I've already posted aboveBut anyway, here they are:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

You're still not answaring my question, is it yes or no?If you are interested in having a conversation it would be productive to address what other say else it's just a monologue.

[Phuein]

Let me step aside from the non-philosophical discussion with the zionist dude above me, and respond to the OP, with their original query... [DISCLAIMER: I am a born and raised Israeli, anti-zionist, anti-religious, Anarchist philosopher.]

 

Is there someone here that has a better grasp of what's going on and is able to explain this reaction?

 

Follow the money. The entire Israel situation had always been, and still is, funded by western powers. The same wealthy and maniacal people, who had waged the American wars in eastern Asia, and are now waging atrocious wars in the Middle East.

 

Israel was prepared and established with the might of the British empire, the same people working hand in hand with the Americans.

 

The Israeli population is, in more ways than not, imprisoned, and forced to continue these atrocities. We don't have the option to work in any other country, without a rare foreign passport, or very high credentials. We are forced to serve in the army, or get punished severely otherwise. We live in a tiny (for practical purposes, think Manhattan), polluted (some of the highest measurements in the world - land, sea, and air!), half-desert country, surrounded by maniacal murderous nations (The Arab nations are no better in this story.)

 

So, why is there so much war and horribleness in this place? In this region, even.

 

Because that's what the rich fascists of the world are forcing on the locals. Just like the gov' and cartels in Mexico. Just like the USA gov'. Just like the North Korean gov'. Just like myriad of African cultures that still struggle against the abuse of wealthy Europeans and Westerners.

 

This will either stop when the fascists are naturally exhausted, or if the fascists' source of power is removed by force - their money and sources of income.

[gausian]

Let me step aside from the non-philosophical discussion with the zionist dude above me, and respond to the OP, with their original query... [DISCLAIMER: I am a born and raised Israeli, anti-zionist, anti-religious, Anarchist philosopher.]  Follow the money. The entire Israel situation had always been, and still is, funded by western powers. The same wealthy and maniacal people, who had waged the American wars in eastern Asia, and are now waging atrocious wars in the Middle East. Israel was prepared and established with the might of the British empire, the same people working hand in hand with the Americans. The Israeli population is, in more ways than not, imprisoned, and forced to continue these atrocities. We don't have the option to work in any other country, without a rare foreign passport, or very high credentials. We are forced to serve in the army, or get punished severely otherwise. We live in a tiny (for practical purposes, think Manhattan), polluted (some of the highest measurements in the world - land, sea, and air!), half-desert country, surrounded by maniacal murderous nations (The Arab nations are no better in this story.) So, why is there so much war and horribleness in this place? In this region, even. Because that's what the rich fascists of the world are forcing on the locals. Just like the gov' and cartels in Mexico. Just like the USA gov'. Just like the North Korean gov'. Just like myriad of African cultures that still struggle against the abuse of wealthy Europeans and Westerners. This will either stop when the fascists are naturally exhausted, or if the fascists' source of power is removed by force - their money and sources of income.

To the point!!Thank you.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

You're still not answaring my question, is it yes or no?If you are interested in having a conversation it would be productive to address what other say else it's just a monologue.

Obviously, I said yes.

[PGP]

PGP,

I liked the fact that you called Sand's work seminal

just because it suits your opinon.

I consider it to be garbage.

 

SUMMARY:

 

His main thesis is that the jews had descend from the Khazars rather than the ancient hebrews

and therefore they have no claim in the land of Israel.

 

This assertion is wrong from several reasons:

1. There is genetic evidence that modern jews descend from the ancient hebrews and not from the khazars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jewsa

2. A conversion to judaism is also to the nation and involves adoption by a jewish family

therefore converts also inherit the land of Israel,

just as if you owned a house you could choose to inherit it also to your adopted children.

 

I would like to stress that not even Sand denies that the ancient hebrews live in ERETZ YISRAEL

and homesteaded the land.

 

ELABORATION:

 

I have a lot of criticism for hist work

but first a little background on the person:

 

Sand is a an historian specialising in the history of France.

 He is also an avid communist.

In fact, he was expelled from the Israeli Communist Party

because he criticised it for lacking a concrete revolutionary plan

to establish a Communist regime in Israel.

After the expulsion he joined MATZPEN the most radical communist organisation

ever to be established in Israel.

Obviously, MATZPEN was also anti-zionist.

As you can see Sand is a real gem.

 

From a professional point of view, Sand is ignorant of any knowledge in biology in general and genetics in particular.

In fact, he can't even understand the articles on the genetic research into the roots of the modern jewish people

nor does he has the expertise in the history of the jewish people at ancient time.

This has not stopped him from writing a book on the topic.

Did I mention that he is a gem?

 

Sand likes to present himself as a myth beaker therefore he invents false narratives in his book only to "smash" them a few pages later.

Prof. Bartal from the hebrew university had criticised him on that.

 

Even more severely, the genetic evidence disproves his assertions

as I pointed above.

To this he responded by saying that he is an historian of ideas and not of facts.

That is, following the long communist tradition, why ruin a "nice" theory simply because it can't be settled with the facts?

Saind is a gem two point O.

You just make this stuff up as you go along. In the one breath you say there is genetic evidence to link with some mystical past right to property (any deeds?), but also that genetic lineage doesn't matter due to adoption. 

Just one part of the link you provided:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Palestinians[edit]

Further information: Palestinian people#DNA and genetic studies

Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians and other Levantines, like the Druze^{[12][13][17][39]} and Bedouin,^[12][13]are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews are to non-Jewish Europeans or Africans.^[12][13][94] One DNA study by Nebel and colleagues found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".^[94] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews and by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.^[94]

 

 

So, genetically, when is a jew not a jew?

Where do you draw the line? 

By their nomadic history jews have travelled far and wide. Some that were jews are now Palestinian or Christian or Druze and vice versa.

Surely the close relationship between "israelis" and Palestinians means the land should be shared between your mythical collective cultural contruct? So, not only has the state called israel been thieved from its owners and continues to be thieved but you are advocating thieving it from those whom you should call "brother" as part of your mythical "Eretz". 

 

Also, I see a common thread here. Anyone that disagrees with your cultural construct is anti-semitic, even if they are jewish. On top of this, if Prof Sand is by your definition part of the cultural construct, then surely you are committing crimes in his name also as an unwilling participant owing to his ancestry. As the cultural construct, whom does the decision fall to to utilise violence to reclaim a mythical property right? Was there a vote taken? Surely seeing as Palestinians and jews share such a remarkable genetic similarity, the colonisation of the land called israel was unnecessary. It was already supporiting "Eretz" before the zionist cultural collective construct was hatched in the 19th century.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

Let me step aside from the non-philosophical discussion with the zionist dude above me, and respond to the OP, with their original query... [DISCLAIMER: I am a born and raised Israeli, anti-zionist, anti-religious, Anarchist philosopher.]

 

 

 

Follow the money. The entire Israel situation had always been, and still is, funded by western powers. The same wealthy and maniacal people, who had waged the American wars in eastern Asia, and are now waging atrocious wars in the Middle East.

 

Israel was prepared and established with the might of the British empire, the same people working hand in hand with the Americans.

 

The Israeli population is, in more ways than not, imprisoned, and forced to continue these atrocities. We don't have the option to work in any other country, without a rare foreign passport, or very high credentials. We are forced to serve in the army, or get punished severely otherwise. We live in a tiny (for practical purposes, think Manhattan), polluted (some of the highest measurements in the world - land, sea, and air!), half-desert country, surrounded by maniacal murderous nations (The Arab nations are no better in this story.)

 

So, why is there so much war and horribleness in this place? In this region, even.

 

Because that's what the rich fascists of the world are forcing on the locals. Just like the gov' and cartels in Mexico. Just like the USA gov'. Just like the North Korean gov'. Just like myriad of African cultures that still struggle against the abuse of wealthy Europeans and Westerners.

 

This will either stop when the fascists are naturally exhausted, or if the fascists' source of power is removed by force - their money and sources of income.

 

The one point I agree with you is that

The jewish people serves as a scapegoat

for the ultra rich and powerful.

 

They only present themselves as jewish

in order to use the jews as a human shield.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

You just make this stuff up as you go along. In the one breath you say there is genetic evidence to link with some mystical past right to property (any deeds?), but also that genetic lineage doesn't matter due to adoption. 

Just one part of the link you provided:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Palestinians[edit]

Further information: Palestinian people#DNA and genetic studies

Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians and other Levantines, like the Druze^{[12][13][17][39]} and Bedouin,^[12][13]are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews are to non-Jewish Europeans or Africans.^[12][13][94] One DNA study by Nebel and colleagues found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".^[94] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews and by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.^[94]

 

 

So, genetically, when is a jew not a jew?

Where do you draw the line? 

By their nomadic history jews have travelled far and wide. Some that were jews are now Palestinian or Christian or Druze and vice versa.

Surely the close relationship between "israelis" and Palestinians means the land should be shared between your mythical collective cultural contruct? So, not only has the state called israel been thieved from its owners and continues to be thieved but you are advocating thieving it from those whom you should call "brother" as part of your mythical "Eretz". 

 

Also, I see a common thread here. Anyone that disagrees with your cultural construct is anti-semitic, even if they are jewish. On top of this, if Prof Sand is by your definition part of the cultural construct, then surely you are committing crimes in his name also as an unwilling participant owing to his ancestry. As the cultural construct, whom does the decision fall to to utilise violence to reclaim a mythical property right? Was there a vote taken? Surely seeing as Palestinians and jews share such a remarkable genetic similarity, the colonisation of the land called israel was unnecessary. It was already supporiting "Eretz" before the zionist cultural collective construct was hatched in the 19th century.

 

Once you denounce your affiliation to the jewish nation

you lose your share.

 

No one in his right mind would do it any other way.

Suppose your son will joint AL QAIDA, will you include him in your will?

Most won't

and this is the rule among the jewish people.

 

 

In addition,

in the next section at wikipedia

you can read that jewish populations are related to each other

but are significantly different than palestinian.

Meaning that palestinain are mostly of non jewish origion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#The_Samaritans

 

Furthermore,

having an allodial title

means that you can make & break the rules as you wish

with respect to your property.

This is what ownership is all about.

[PGP]

Once you denounce your affiliation to the jewish nation

you lose your share.

 

No one in his right mind would do it any other way.

Suppose your son will joint AL QAIDA, will you include him in your will?

Most won't

and this is the rule among the jewish people.

So, there is no criteria for inclusion in this cultural construct. Not genetic, not religious, not by choice in or out, not exclusively cultural, not by land ownership. Actually, I am incorrect. There is one: the willingness to kill other human beings. Wipe them out in fact, to reclaim property based on a fairy tale. Come from far and wide to claim your part of the "promised" land. Just be prepared to kill.

 

Come to think of it, were the jewish clans not slaves at one point to some pharoah or other (I will have to rely on other peoples expertise here, I grew out of fairy tales in my single digits). Does this not mean that they were in fact owned, that is to say the property of this pharoah and by definition of his descendents? Would this not pre-date the cultural construct? What would be the implications of this, I wonder?

Come to think of it, wouldn't this be preferable in terms of human livelihood(ie loss of life). No killing, just slavery.

[Adam_Min_Hayeshuv]

A few point:

1. The land of Israel 

belongs to the jewish nation

not to the jewish race.

 

If you own a house

you may select o inherit it 

only to your adopted son.

 

2. There is genetic evidence that link modern jews with ancient jews.

It also seems that palestinian mostly descend from arab emigrants to ERETZ YISRAEL.

 

To iterate,

this genetic question has nothing to do with ownership question

which is legal in nature.

 

3. If your property was stolen

it is legitimate to apply force in order to return it.

 

It is preferable to apply the minimally required amount of force

which is exactly what the IDF does

as evident from its amazingly low 

Civilian Casualty Ratio statistics

despite the fact that Hamas use the local population as human shields.

[magentawave]

Apparently the plan to grab the land now called "Israel" started during WW1. Post-war, during the "peace" talks in Versailles, there was months of back-room wheeling and dealing which resulted in cartographers carving up nation states and creating new borders, etc. Richard Grove covers it in this Peace Revolution episode #21 - The Occult History of World War: A Veil Lifted. (The etymology of the word "occult" means hidden.) You can subscribe to the Peace Revolution podcast in your iTunes.

 

And then there is the documentary called The Iron Wall. I'm only about 15 minutes into it so far but it is very interesting...

 

[LovePrevails]

[magentawave]

Hah, hah, that was hilarious and so typical! Same thing if anyone brings up "fixing" social security.

[LovePrevails]

[iHuman]

this is quite an excellent video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cM8R0-hBLM

[LovePrevails]