Pride and Prejudice. And Jews.

[Scottishhh]

I thought I had reached a good point in my life. I thought people were respecting my beliefs, and could see the evidence that I am improving my condition. I got married last year, and our first baby is on the way.

 

But boy, howdy. Do the vultures start showing up as soon as a fresh baby brain is available for abuse.

 

My wife and I are choosing to practice peaceful parenting. She is more or less an anarchist, after being kicked out of my home country two weeks after our wedding, due to a visa technicality.

 

However, her parents are Jewish. My father is a kind of presbytarian. He is married to a muslim. My birth mother was brought up catholic, and has become a kind of mystic humanist. And my brother is a buddhist.

 

And now the baby is on the way, her folks are very keen to instill jewish rituals, etc.

I thought my wife dealt with it very bravely. But I told my father about it, and now he has revealed his true opinions.

 

Please, somebody have a look at the following conversation. I am not sure whether I should even bother to reply or not. It's upsetting me now. But I'm so angry at the fact they've been flying under the radar for a couple of years. And now I'm having a baby, religion is suddenly a problem.

 

First email, me to my father :

 

Hows it going dad?

The past three months have been very interesting for me. Last night was the first joyful fruit of my labour.When we moved house, I convinced (My wife) to try giving up television.  It's been a great success. She's happier, and we have great conversations, more often.

Last night her parents mentioned something about giving our daughter some Jewish trinkets. Prayer book to keep under her bed. A Talismen to nail outside the front door. Superstitious stuff.I was within earshot, cooking.

(My wife) really amazed me with her response.  She courageously told her parents we're against superstition.  We are not going to tell our dauhter things are true, if we ourselves don't believe in them. She said, we feel it would violate the trust our daughter would have in us. It could harm our relationship. And we don't want to give her the paranoia associated with original sin, & an invisible man following her day and night.

 

The response from her mother was an outburst of distress. Claiming 'tradition' was important,  the Holocaust,  etc. The father was saying, 'if you can do something harmless to keep us happy, why won't you just do it!?', etc.

Quick as flash, (My wife) said, so what if (My father's wife) wants her to wear a Hijab? Should we follow her tradition, to keep her happy? Is it harmless? And, my personal favourite, 'tradition is not a reason'.

The parents flipped out. On the other end of the computer, her brother happened to be walking by, and chimed in with 'oh yeah, did you know there isn't even any archaeological evidence that the Jews were ever in Egypt'.

 

I was incredibly relieved. And proud of my wife last night. Rational and brave woman.

She has changed a lot in the last 2 years, just through conversations with me. And so have I. And I got to thinking today, that I owe you one. You taught me conversation from early on. So thanks. It's making life a lot better. 

And we had a good chat after it about how all the 'people pleasers' in Germany, went along with the holocaust.

 

My father's response:

 

It is really tricky sometimes. When I was younger I used to be brutally direct in my opposition to some of my parent's Christian beliefs but as they got older and less capable of of grasping complexity I resorted to keep it more subdued. It becomes harder because you see how much it hurts them.

It's also more complex for me because I do believe in an invisible guy following me around,  albeit an invisible guy within me. I also believe in life after death, but not out of superstition but because of the evidence I have gleaned and reasoning. But following a religious tradition has to be a personal choice.  If it is imposed from the outside it becomes a tyranny in which structure becomes stricture. You and I know how religions have deviated from their original purpose because they have been co-opted by political entities, but that is esoteric knowledge. It is not for the average intellect. As James Corbett replied to a listener's question who seemed to be offended and outraged at James' suggestion that a particular musical genre had been co-opted to the purpose engineering public behaviour: "I am not suggesting the music isn't good, of course the music has to have intinsic merit, if it didn't it would not be effective as a devise of social control..." The true purpose of religion is to cultivate a rich inward life; anyone who thinks they can bully others into inward growth is a fool. If putting something under your bed achieves it, I want it. I somehow doubt it though. Bottom line , and take my word for this, this is only the beginning of your struggle but this will not be struggle you can walk away from. Embrace it. Enjoy it. Learn to have a chuckle for it will not end. Struggle is good for the soul. And never ever become dogmatic, leave that to them and Richard Dawkins, just remember dogma is to protect ourselves from the unknown. You will find it difficult at times but remember that your struggle is not a random accident,  on some unconscious level you sought it, perverse as that might seem to you right now.

 

His follow up email after I ignored that one:

 

The reality is you are going to be away working a lot and after baby is born! (Your wife) is going to be too busy to constantly fight it. They will have little else in their lives to expend their energies on...

 

( I work offshore 6 months per year. 28 days on, 28 days off. I have to continue with this, whilst I await my US green card, which can take a long time.)

 

I have written the following response, but not sent it yet.

Any advice from some smart people on here?

 

Don't accuse me of being dogmatic. To do so is dogmatic, and quite arrogant. I don't accept that.There is no such thing as brutal honesty. There is only honesty.

Truth is that which can be verified. And truth can only be defined as that which is true for all people, in all places, for all time.Dogma comes from authority. Dogma is inconsistent. And I have read the bible. It is inconsistent, and violent. It serves Authoritarians. Religion has not deviated from it's purpose. It's purpose is to serve the priest class / witch doctors. 

The claim that religion is supposed to create moral behaviour in people, but the jury is in. 200 000 years of violence, and life expectancy of 20 years old, has only come to an end since the separation of church and state. They are beheading Christian children in Iraq and Syria now, whilst the Jews and Muslims are murdering each other daily in the middle east. The old testament condones violence. The ten commandment originally said 'thou shall not kill other Jews'. By the rules of the book, murder and the death penalty are OK. And transgressing the ten commandments were punishable by death. The definition of god as all powerful and all knowing is contradictory. Everything in the book is contradictory. It says you shall not kill, but god can kill. And he constantly does. Not to mention 'spare the rod, and spoil the child'. It's all in the handbook. 

It is entirely designed to make you servile to authority.

 

I'm supposed to avoid hurting people's feelings? OK, Granny, I would never try to upset her. She is closer to death than I. And even you, (His wife), and my mother, and the in-Laws. Believe whatever you want. The point is not to convert other people. The point is to protect the clean and innocent brain of a newborn baby.I'm responsible for her. And the people she comes in contact with, can tell her damaging lies.But you don't get to say that I shouldn't hurt the feelings of others. Then expect me to stand by and let people scare my daughter into believing that she is always being watched and judged? Or that If she pisses off a man she can't see, then after death, she will be punished without end, for all eternity, a fate worse than death? Or that if people use certain words to her, they will cause physical changes in the world? It's entirely based on fear. 

I consider it an act of aggression towards a child. 

I've grown up scared, paranoid, and uncertain because of this stuff. And the idea that I should fear or obey authority has literally been the hardest thing to overcome in my career. It has put my life in real physical danger. And I have seen superstitious sailors narrowly avoid death, and sustain real injuries, because they failed to take responsibility for their own lives. 

I want my daughter to be able to know when she's being lied to. Or when her authority figures are failing her. 

that means understanding and respecting property rights, and Non-Aggression. For all people, in all places, for all time.

Including priests, imams, rabbis, gurus, cops, robbers, politicians, teachers, parents, grandparents, friends and enemies.

No exceptions. 

Religion is immoral, precisely because it allows for exceptions. It's not tricky.

It's a case of being consistent. 

And children know that. They know the difference between fantasy and reality. They know about consistency, as soon as they learn that falling over hurts. They don't believe in things they can't see or feel or touch, unless they spend hundreds of hours being indoctrinated. 

And (My wife) knows it too. 

And the in laws are easy to argue with. They have a homosexual daughter. If they ever want to say that we should follow Judaism, then they have to turn around and stone their daughter to death. Check mate.

[J-William]

I... your father is nutty crazy... and a super-asshole.

 

Have you given any thought to defooing and not leaving a forwarding address?

 

I assume that's not really possible with your wife's family, but as long as they don't circumcise there's probably not much religious harm that can come in the first year or two of life... So maybe you can get things in order so you are taking some of the burden from your wife by that point?

 

As unpleasent as your father is, he makes a good point that if you are away the people in your family's life will have a bigger influence than you do... So do what you can to get better people, or get the bad people out.

[Scottishhh]

I... your father is nutty crazy... and a super-asshole.

 

Have you given any thought to defooing and not leaving a forwarding address?

 

I assume that's not really possible with your wife's family, but as long as they don't circumcise there's probably not much religious harm that can come in the first year or two of life... So maybe you can get things in order so you are taking some of the burden from your wife by that point?

 

As unpleasent as your father is, he makes a good point that if you are away the people in your family's life will have a bigger influence than you do... So do what you can to get better people, or get the bad people out.

We have thought of it.

I mean.. I plan to work ashore again one day. But it's not possible until I get a green card.

 

But as I reflect on it, the worst thing about his statement is that, he is implicitly trying to tell me to 'give up', and accept it.

That's what he did.

And that's why he married two insanely irrational women.

 

I'm honestly thinking of making all of them sign a contract, promising to respect my wife and my beliefs.

Her mother actually said she would sneak religious things into our apartment when we weren't looking.

 

My wife needs their help whilst I'm away though. But she is confident she can keep them in line.

 

I just feel betrayed. They've been lying to me for years now, saying that they are ok with my beliefs.

Clearly not. snake! danger!

[J-William]

We have thought of it.

I mean.. I plan to work ashore again one day. But it's not possible until I get a green card.

 

But as I reflect on it, the worst thing about his statement is that, he is implicitly trying to tell me to 'give up', and accept it.

That's what he did.

And that's why he married two insanely irrational women.

 

I'm honestly thinking of making all of them sign a contract, promising to respect my wife and my beliefs.

Her mother actually said she would sneak religious things into our apartment when we weren't looking.

 

My wife needs their help whilst I'm away though. But she is confident she can keep them in line.

 

I just feel betrayed. They've been lying to me for years now, saying that they are ok with my beliefs.

Clearly not. snake! danger!

I would try not to put that burden on her as much as I can. Not because she's some kind of shrinking violet but because nobody can stand a full frontal assault from people they depend on all day every day.

At this point in their life they are like religion inflicting robots. They want a choice in the matter but they probably don't have that choice anymore. A contract won't be worth the paper it's written on.

 

It is important that you both go into this with eyes wide open knowing that she is going to need your support. Snakes don't do a very good job of biting you if you're looking out for each other and you are aware that they are there.

 

My wife and I have been able to thrive with our daughter without any help from family, but neither one of us has to go away to work and we live in China where we can afford to have some help around the house.

[Scottishhh]

nobody can stand a full frontal assault from people they depend on all day every day.

At this point in their life they are like religion inflicting robots. They want a choice in the matter but they probably don't have that choice anymore. A contract won't be worth the paper it's written on.

It is important that you both go into this with eyes wide open knowing that she is going to need your support. Snakes don't do a very good job of biting you if you're looking out for each other and you are aware that they are there.

 

Thanks man, that helps.

I'm so used to relentlessly fighting my parents when I was younger, that this stuff just gets my alarm bells ringing.

It scares me. But you are right. It's not their choice any more. I shouldn't let my father get inside my head, and make me 'self-attack'.

 

I think it's helping me think about a career change too. But the dilemma is that I get good enough money doing this for wife to never have to work again. And I do get a full 5 to 6 months per year, of quality time off.

I think we just have to keep monitoring my daughter's contact with the family.

[PatrickC]

Hey Scottish,

 

Forgive me for I really just speed read your post for brevity sake. So if I missed something, let me know.

 

Have you considered just explaining how hurt you feel about your fathers lies and betrayal? Or maybe you did.

[Scottishhh]

Hey Scottish,

 

Forgive me for I really just speed read your post for brevity sake. So if I missed something, let me know.

 

Have you considered just explaining how hurt you feel about your fathers lies and betrayal? Or maybe you did.

 

Hi PatrickC.

I don't know. I think I avoid real emotional issues with him, because I know I'd get a disappointing response. Which would probably just hurt me. I mean, he's always been reserved. We try to hug once, and it was horrible. he's never said I love you, ever. Even when I've said it to him.

I've been keeping all of my family at an arm's length for some time now.

We never talk about feelings. Except in the abstract.

 

I think that's why I haven't sent my response to him. I know it won't make any difference to his behaviour. He's an english teacher, and so, he intellectualises everything into the abstract. There is no right or wrong. Everything is relative. Truth is not 'true', it's dogma.

 

It's paralysing, and infuriating. I've been upset all day though, because, I'm angry that he can still affect me.

I should know better. 

The problem is that I am opposed to his relativism. His belief in fate. His unwillingness to stand up for something, consistently.

 

I think I've been avoiding the conversation for 3 years now, since I am sure it will probably end badly.

If he accepts my arguments, and changes a lifetime of irrationality, then it might mean he has to go through another divorce, and completely alienate the rest of his family as well.

If he doesn't, then I don't know if I can continue to have a relationship with any of my family.

 

Or more likely, I won't be taken seriously.

And I take my life very seriously.

I find it very hard to calm down once I start. I used to drink a lot, and get in fights, and have real anger issues. I am trying not to go back down that road at all. I'm doing well. My wife loves me.

 

I guess the weird feeling now, is that I'm torn between including them in my life, and looking out for my  future daughters' needs.

It's a new situation.

 

Thanks for listening matey. I need to think about this for a few days. This helped.