Trying hard to save marriage---not sure when to call it quits.

[regevdl]

This is really hard for me to discuss in front of unknown number of strangers but it shows how I will try everything to gather insight on this problem.

 

My hubby and I have been going down the tubes for the last few years. We have two amazing children. Peaceful parents. I do to even know what background I should include to give context.

 

I have always worked. One year I didn't because I just had our 2nd child and hubby was on the road for weeks at a time so we felt by me staying home to be available for kids who were >2 and >4 at the time was best.

 

A year later we moved overseas of his homeland. It was a mutual decision and carefully planned and considered.

 

The first year he stayed in US to work while I raised kids and was full time in intensive language course.

 

After he moved it was awkward. We "lived" in a tiny unit next to his parents then fuvdlky moved into our own house which we continue to rent.

 

We've had ups and downs but overall it's an emotionless and sexless relationship.

 

He works constantly which I guess I'm used to and kids have "adjusted to".

 

We have been seeing a therapist for several months and he refuses to cut to the bull shit. When we arrive and she asks how we are he says "fine".

 

I want to walk out of the sessions screaming "then why in the hell are we here if everything is fine?!" But I don't I end up leading the dhscusdion so he thinks I am a complaining ungrateful wife.

 

Today was his first day off in a month.

 

I offered to take the kids to a local spring (as we live in a desert that reaches 130defrees)... So it's a real treat and a local secret location.

 

He said he didn't have time. ?? I asked if he indeed has a day off (I swear he says that as an auto reflex response). And he said he does have today off but he has things to do. What things? Mow the grass. :-/

 

Something that I do when I can to save him the extra work and do he cannot use it as an excuse to avoid us and when I mows the grass he has told me he prefers to do it. Only one time he said thanks.

 

We relaxed the rest if the day (siesta) he took kids to community pool. I opted out. I too avoid when feeling constantly rejected.

 

Later the plan was to visit our date farm (20 min away). He needs to check water system weekly and we use it as a time to go as fsmiky. Sometimes making a picnic out there (when it isn't 130defrees lol)

 

On the way, I (as usual) bring up how we both missed things the therapist encouraged us to work on. He has been grumpy lately and I can't tell if it's work exhaustion or us or both.

 

I'm not perfect. I can admit that and I put effort and I relapse sometimes but I feel he doesn't put effort unless I make a stink about it.

 

It's more frustrating because he is a self-motivated danger and manager and I hear from him and everyone how he goes above and beyond etc. He was a champion swimmer for his country by age 13-18 and lived away from home at that time, was a "legend" in his military days, spent a year off roading in Africa with a friend if his. But can't seem to leave the grass another week and come with me and kids to a watering hole for an hour?

 

Can't call me out when I relapse?

 

Only when I point out our failures does he dominate the conversation With mine. I tell him if he has issues with me, why he only brings them up when I bring up a topic to discuss? He never starts a conversation. Or problem-solving argument. He always plays defense, not offense.

 

Anyway I have nothing. I had my own business last year but it was stressing me out and was affecting my parenting I feel a bit lost, far from home, don't have friends to confuse in who arebt 10 hours time difference. I feel stuck and freaking scared that this cannot be fixed.

 

I want it fixed otherwise I would continue the exercises the therapist gives.

 

The fact he doesn't do them tells me ever he wants/doesn't.

 

To think of divorce exorcism my living in this country after only 3 years makes me panic. But to bring the kids back to US? They have no friend base there, no cousins. Etc.

[shirgall]

To me it sounds like his priorities are elsewhere and it sounds like that's where the discussion needs to dwell, not on his (or your) failures. What's important to him and why? Spend some time there and don't go to "why isn't x more important" for a little while and try to see how he ticks.

 

Obligatory caveat: I am not a therapist and I've never found a good one.

[regevdl]

I will try that.  I found out that up until now he has never shared his feelings with anyone.  He has a friend who is like a brother and I was shocked that he has never discussed this stuff with him!  ....so I guess he IS like a brother..just not in the way I thought or he thought me meant.  lol  As he is not close to his biological brothers. 

 

Anyway, I feel like his work is his priority and he equates it to his input to the relationship as a whole.  I hope that makes sense.  What I mean is he shows he 'cares' by working like a madman.  He has no emotional input to the relationship, he can always use work as an excuse to not visit my family or be with me/kids on trips that I plan, etc. and therefore I am pigeon -holed against complaining because then if I complain about that, then I am complaining about his hard work and what he is trying to do for the family, etc.  So it's  a debate trap that I have just started avoiding until I can come up with better approaches.  

 

If I ask him about his priorities he will say 'what we are trying to build'.  Which means....we just became farmers so we started a huge date farm which will take a few years to produce fruit, so in the meantime he has to work like crazy to cover bills and I do what I can to make sure kids are brought up well and I try to make money on the side working at daycare, private babysitting, making jewelry and art, etc.  

 

Yeah...our therapist is 'meh'.  Thanks for insight!  I will try to bring that issue up more directly next time I speak with them.  

[villagewisdom]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. So forgive me if I am too forward.

 

I feel for you. My husband is similar and truly believes he is contributing much more to the marriage than I am because he works so hard. He also believes that if he works just a little bit harder and a little bit longer hours that I will be happy. I kid you not. He really believes that. And even though I tell him that he is mistaken, he does not believe me and so continues to work and work. And he actually blames me for having so many desires that he cannot fulfill no matter how hard he works. My husband has some really odd ideas about what I want and what will "please" me. (I've told him that the fact that he thinks I need to be "pleased" irritates me.) He used to ask me what I wanted. And I would tell him what I wanted. I have had to be blunt in recent times and tell him that all of his ideas about what I want in our relationship are incorrect but he continues to do the same things. Work a little harder. Work more hours. This has been going on for several years. We are approaching our 9th anniversary.  

 

Recently I asked him what he thought his life would be like if he spent all of these hours and hours working to build our farm and in the end he turned around and I was gone and he had no one to share his creation with. Unfortunately he just thought I was threatening to leave him and missed my point that the physical structures were only important if we have an actual relationship where we can share them. 

 

I had a real break through with him the other night. I finally got him to admit that at this point we have no relationship. We are no longer connecting. We exist together but are like two ships passing in the night, This was very hard for both of us. It was raw honesty. He kept insisting that we have this "deep connection". I kept saying that we USED TO HAVE a "deep connection". We. Do. Not. Have. A. Connection. We no longer have fun. We no longer have sex. We rarely have a conversation that does not end in an argument about some trivial thing. There is no connection. There is only the memory of the beautiful connection we used to have. I just kept saying it over and over. He came over and sat in front of me and was very tender and tried to convince me that we are still connected. I was quite blunt and told him that he was imagining that I was connected with him and it was only in his imagination. 

 

I don't think that I am saying this very clearly because it was very profound. He was describing our "connection" like a strong radio signal with some static in the transmission that was a bit annoying and would clear up. I realized he just kept putting up with the annoying static but had no plan on how it would clear up. I was describing a completely dropped cell phone signal. Just pretending we still had just as strong a connection as when we started was just really stupid to me.

 

I then proceeded to apologize for making the choice to pursue our relationship when I was aware that pursuing personal growth was central to my being and while growth was important to him, he also resisted change. I admitted that I had seen it and I ignored it. I pretended that he would grow with the same ease that I did. And because I did that, we are now in the current situation that I find increasingly unbearable. I apologized for the hurt that my choice was causing him.

 

Stating the truth of my conscious choice for disconnection due to his resistance to change and making the apology changed his whole perspective on the situation. The shift was almost palpable. I could almost see the dominoes of everything that I had been saying over the past three or four years falling, He got it. He really got it. I have hope that re-connection will occur. Even though we do not have children as you do, we have invested a lot in our lives together and I have new hope that we will repair the damage and be better for it. 

 

John Gray's books are helping quite a bit. It has taken over two years to get him to read/listen to the audiobooks. But he is finally doing it. And apparently he is getting some pretty good ideas. I have noticed subtle differences in his interactions with me for the past few days. I have hope. 

 

You have described a very tough situation. I would suggest getting a different therapist if possible. A third party to mediate would be beneficial but it does not sound like that is happening with your current therapist.

 

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. 

[Christopherscience]

You are part owner of your relationship. You could say it's a partnership.

 

I'm not sure why you got into this partnership, but, apparently it had elements of "mutual decision and carefully planned and considered" in some regards.

 

Moving to a foreign land? Learning a new language (which, I presume, means that you didn't speak your husband's native language)? Having two kids?

 

hmm...

 

What else do I know?

 

I know he was a great swimmer (which I presume means that he was fit and athletic looking). I know that he was in the military, and, as you relate, a "legend" (I assume at swimming). I assume he has manly secondary sex characteristics because he was a high-level athlete, and thus, I assume that he is conventionally good looking (steeped in testosterone), or, at least, not ugly. I also know that he works a lot, travels a lot (at least in the past), and is not having sex with you. I also know he (and you) own(s) a date farm.

 

And he says things are fine to your marriage counselor.

 

Ok.

 

Ah, yes, and he isn't expressive of his emotions (or perhaps stunted emotionally)... either way - you call the relationship emotionless...

 

So... how much of this do you own?

 

I do not know how long you courted this man. Was it a brief courtship? What did you do to woo him, and for how long?

 

"Anyway, I feel like his work is his priority and he equates it to his input to the relationship as a whole.  I hope that makes sense."

 

-Yes. That makes perfect sense. He works hard... for you... and his children.

 

While I understand that you're not (probably) looking for a vibrator attached to a bank account - you have to understand where he's coming from. You say that he wasn't even emotional with his brother(s) [biological or not]. Well then, what can you surmise from him saying things are fine, and not having emotional connections, while working non-stop (for someone who he, ostensibly, has no emotions for)?

 

-He's a robot.

 

Wait, no... That's ridiculous - robots aren't that advanced yet.

 

-What can you surmise from his actions (assuming he's not a robot; has, in fact, produced offspring, and; works very hard to support you and them)?

 

Perhaps there's something that you're missing?

 

What was his childhood like? Does he know how to express his needs? Can he listen? Is he charming but only superficially? Is he scared? Is he scarred?

 

... So... Basically, I hear that you married (and had kids with) a man with few (if any) emotional connections in this world, and you chose him (and you sound shocked that " He has a friend who is like a brother and I was shocked that he has never discussed this stuff with him!  ....so I guess he IS like a brother..just not in the way I thought or he thought me meant.  lol  As he is not close to his biological brothers.") I don't know when this shocked you, but, I assume (from the flow of the narrative) that this was after you learned his native language to some degree (which was after you were married).

 

...

 

You do not own your husband.

 

You are part owner of a marriage, but not the an owner of a man.

 

Do you want him to change?

 

Do you want your legendary swimmer to suddenly become; an emotional; highly sexual; romantic who mows the yard (why you have grass in a desert in beyond me) ; takes his kids swimming on his scarce time away from work (I presume that, if he isn't a robot, he needs rest) ; yet provides for you and your children, and; greater yet, is receptive and proactive in marriage counseling after years of reticence with such emotional perceptiveness, and acuity of your emotional state - that he just "gets it"?

 

Do you want to change him?

 

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, because I don't know you (and, thus, must genuinely ask), but what do you bring to the table?

 

It sounds like you want to scream, as I understand it.

 

"I want to walk out of the sessions screaming 'then why in the hell are we here if everything is fine?!'"

 

I sympathize that you're not getting the validation of your emotions that you seek. And I understand that it must be difficult - being in another country, without close friends, a language barrier, children to raise, and, on top of that, the rock - that emotional foundation on which you agreed to marriage - seems slippery.

 

It is... unfortunate... that you married a man who is not curious about you and your satisfaction enough to ask "I'm fine, but my wife is dissatisfied in the marriage. Counselor; wife; how do I address the concerns of my wife? I'm not fine, now, because someone I love has a problem - how do I deal with it? What is my wife thinking?"... But, for whatever reason, you deigned to marry him and have kids with him. I'm curious about your... experience. I can only guess as to why you chose him, and what that says about you. I'm curious about you... but that's useless as far as you're concerned because I'm an internet stranger who is taking a critical view of your marriage problems on a philosophy website. Critical... that which is vital... Your critics are the ones who want to see you do better...

 

And, apparently, your husband is not calling you on your ********, either...

 

It's a shame that he isn't calling you on your **********, or, as you put it; he "Can't call me out when I relapse", and that you relapse.

 

Whatever co-dependency that entails.

 

I'm also saddened to hear that you relapse - I assume drugs? Or emotional relapses? Perhaps depression? Something else? What do you relapse into exactly?

 

It must be difficult to hear that everything is fine when you're struggling and, objectively, there are problems in the marriage (e.g. sex).

 

But... I'm still left asking; what do you bring to the table?

 

I assume that you want to persuade your husband to trust you with his emotions, and to be more emotional himself...

 

Do you scream "I'm an emotionally healthy and well-adjusted individual! I have solutions, and models of behavior which you can learn from! Emotions are wonderful tools - let me show you how to use them to enrich your life!"?

 

-Because I don't know how you convince a man in the middle part of his life to suddenly become expressive and emotional and trusting. I don't know what skills of persuasion you have.

 

I know that women can, generally, persuade men (especially with sex, although I find that somewhat detestable... and a bit of a cheap and underhanded move as far as persuasion goes)... but, then again, you say the marriage is sexless. So, perhaps, you'd have to appeal to his better nature by some other means.

 

Or... You could divorce him.

 

... I didn't hear one word about physical abuse... but... you can still divorce him, especially if you're dissatisfied. You do have an obligation to your children, however, and being a single mother divorcee carries consequences all its own.

 

...

 

I don't know why you married him. I assume he was exotic... and erotic (enough to give you two children). I assume he's a good provider because he tends toward work (as opposed to idleness). Good looking (or attractive in some sense) and a provider... I can see the appeal, if that was the case.

 

I still don't know why you married him, though.

 

But... you are subject to the consequences of your actions, and, as far as lives that I would choose go (if I had such choices) ; a stay-at-home mother who occasionally mows the lawn would not be a bad life. It is, evidently, leisurely enough to post on the FDR forums. And, because I already do house work for myself, and enjoy the company of children, it would appeal to me (again, assuming that being a stay-at-home wife/mother were something that I could choose). Yeah, granted, there are better lives and I'm not going to go out of my way to become a stay-at-home spouse, nor would I get a sex-change so that I could inhabit the role of wife and mother (frankly, I enjoy who I am). I am not you and cannot make your choices for you (neither can your husband, and, conversely, you cannot make your husband's choices).

 

... You can only try to appeal to his better nature with persuasion (which means knowing him and his wants, and also working on your communication).

 

So... In closing, you're trying hard to save your marriage from your own dissatisfaction (or because your husband thinks things are fine - on that point I am unclear... Are you trying to save your marriage from the fact that your husband doesn't understand your dissatisfaction? When you do not scream that which you desire to scream [in a mediated counseling session, presumable out of your children's view]? When you and your husband do not have the requisite skills [language?] needed to communicate?)... and you're not sure when you should call it quits.

 

I don't know either.

 

I will likely never have enough information to tell you when you should call it quitsies... and by "quits-ies" I mean unilaterally dissolving your family as it stands, and, most likely, entering many life-shattering difficulties.

 

"quits"

 

-It sounds cute when you say it like that... calling it quits on breathing sounds cute, too, even though it would likely leave me with severe brain damage from killing vital brain cells.

 

"The path to wisdom begins by calling things by their proper names." As Confucius said. I'm inclined to agree.

 

Call it like it is - tell your husband you what the sex back, and that you understand that there are reasons that need to be addressed so that you can have your hanky-panky... such as his childhood, his isolation, his urge to work hard to provide for you (which is probably a mute's way of saying "I love you"), the things you can do to pique his... er... "interest" on your end, communication barriers, the logistics of now having children, and many other things.

 

Are you interested in him?

 

And I don't mean that in the idealized sense - I don't mean him as a legendary swimmer and exotic lover - I mean him... as a person... with frailties, with interests, hopes, desires, fears, a history and a future? Is he just an idea?

 

Do you know your husband?

 

I know that sounds harsh in its flippancy "do you know your husband?"... but... Again, I don't know you - I don't know the circumstances of your life beyond what you've stated here, in this one forum post on this one website... It is conceivable to me that you might not have tried hard to get to know him.

 

I don't even know what you mean when you say "trying hard"... could you define that for me? I hope that it means more than housework and yardwork and jewelry and babysitting (if I had kids, then I might just call what I'd be doing "playdates for the kids", but, again, I don't know you).

 

I have every reason to believe you when you say that you are frustrated, and I can imagine the difficulty of moving to a foreign country (I already live in a desert, and know what 130 degree weather feels like - I'm in the Mojave - which is South of Death Valley) - heck, my swamp-cooler is a piece of junk and I'm surprised my computer hasn't melted yet, hahahah

 

But, yes, I believe you when you say you're frustrated and have problems.

 

But, truly, what is the nature of your problems and frustration? And how do you get what you want (and give your children a good life, more importantly)?

 

"making a stink" about things doesn't sound like high-level negotiation skills.

 

Absent answers to my wall-of-text questions: I suggest working on your communication skills. That's something you have power over. You could also go nuclear-bomb on your nuclear family and ass-launch your husband out of the family (as MGTOWs like vention would say)... and probably teach your children that it's ok to marry an exotic lover, take 'em for a ride, drain them of their hard work, and generally make a stink about things, in the process of divorcing your husband... I would be curious how your children would view you later in life (personally, I hold my mother in low[er] regard for ass-launching my father, but at least I was 19 and not 4)... I'd be curious what their teens would be like for you if they were taught such a formative lesson at such an impressionable age.

 

I would also be curious how your children would turn out if they bore witness to a flowering of parental love and the cautious, tender steps of forming a loving bond between a husband and wife.

 

Regardless of what happens, I remain a curious creature.

 

Hence the philosophy and the science...

 

Good luck, in case I don't hear from you - I, too, am a busy man (and I may have unintentionally pissed you off... or you might not feel like answering for whatever reason - hopefully because you'd be having a beautiful life, busy with a loving family, and preferring developing communication with people who are not strangers [such as myself]).

 

Wait... no... I hate wishing people "good luck"... luck is dumb. I'm a scientist - luck is meaningless in most regards... I mean to say:

 

Good skill.

 

Good bye and good skill.

 

Final edit: t+ 45 mins (10:40pm )

Edited August 17, 2014 by Christopherscience

[_LiveFree_]

Hey regevdl,

 

It seems if you are posting about your marriage on a message board that you are desperate for help. Would I be correct in saying that? You have my deepest sympathies as I know that these kinds of situations can hurt so bad you can physically get sick.

 

You say that your relationship with your husband has been going down the tubes for a few years now. Right off the bat this tells me a few things: 1) He's not being open and honest with you, 2) you are not being open and honest with him, 3) both of you care more about not being hurt than being vulnerable with each other, 4) neither of you have done enough to correct the spiral downwards. This isn't meant to be harsh on either you or him, it is simply a statement of fact. You cannot correct your course until you figure out where you are right now and how you got there.

 

You give some history of moving around, that you have two kids, and you used to live next to his parents. So it sounds like you two got married and had two kids before you were stable. Then he continued to work long hours, rarely seeing his kids. So you married a guy (who you later describe as being very athletic, which I assume means attractive, too, as well as being a military man, which he was well suited for because of his lack of ability to empathize with others' emotions) who works long hours and stays away from home for weeks at a time, but then decided it was a good idea to have two kids?? 

 

You've made some mistakes along the way, wouldn't you say? You can't buy a car, take it home, and then get angry when it doesn't turn into a boat. You married an emotionally repressed male. For you to get angry at him for not being emotionally vulnerable with you makes zero sense whatsoever. And, sense you decided to have two children without establishing a stable foundation first, there is likely quite a bit of emotional repression in yourself, too. 

 

The kids have not "adjusted to" their father rarely being home in the sense that they understand and it's OK with them. Basically, they have adapted to their environment, which is starkly fatherless. 

 

"We have been seeing a therapist for several months and he refuses to cut to the bull shit."  -- Yet you are throwing bullshit at us in your post, even with this very sentence. Someone who says they're "fine", when you know they are not, is being defensive. Why would they be defensive? Have you asked yourself that question? Have you approached your husband in a non-accusatory manner? You say you want to scream at him when he's being defensive. Have you considered that the reason he is defensive like that is because his mother or father used to scream at him as a child when he would feel emotions like pain that resulted in crying? What about your parents? Was your father emotional distant with you? What parallels in behavior do you see with your husband and your father, your relationship with your husband and the relationship your parents had with each other. You chose this man. He hasn't changed, you haven't changed. The only thing that is different is that you are getting further into your relationship and realizing that there are many aspects which are lacking, specifically an emotional connection. 

 

I bet your naughty bits were connected fairly early on in your relationship. Is this correct? 

 

He has his first day off in a month and likely wants to spend it alone. Did you ask him what he wants on his day off or did you just expect him to want what you want? My goodness, if I worked a month straight and then on my one day off my wife got irritated when I didn't do what she wanted, I think I'd rather go back into work. 

 

Don't do something "for him" and then expect something in return. You didn't mow the grass for him, you mowed it so that he wouldn't have an excuse to not spend time with you. You mowed the grass for you. 

 

Now I'm feeling irritated. You complain about him not going with you and the kids to the spring, but later that same day he takes the kids to the community pool except you don't go because you're feeling rejected. How about going up to your husband, putting your arms around him and say "I felt sad and lonely and anxious today when you didn't come with us to the local spring." Don't add any narrative or conclusions. Just be open and vulnerable and honest about what you experienced. If you really want to reverse this downward trend, then you have to show him the type of relationship that you want, which means being what you want and giving him what you'd like to receive. If you're thinking at this point, "But I feel too hurt to do that," then give up now and divorce him. When your two innocent kids ask when they're all grown up and in therapy why you divorced daddy, you can tell them you just quit. 

 

I want to pause here and make it clear that you came here for feedback. All I have to go on is what I've read in your post. I don't have a post from your husband to read. I'm absolutely positive that if he posted here there would be plenty of things to point out to him that he is doing to hurt his marriage, his kids, and himself. Please don't think I'm just picking on you. Again, you have to know where you are and how you got there before you can correct your course to get where you want to go. 

 

Continuing through your post...

 

So now you have a 3rd outing for the day to the farm. This is a normal occurrence because he has to check the water system weekly (more work). On the way there, you bring up therapy. Specifically, you bring up both of your deficiencies as it relates to therapy. I mean my god, does the man ever get a break? How about talking about what is going well? Or asking him what he thinks or feels about therapy? Maybe you could tell him what you think and feel about it without talking about where he needs to improve. He's been grumpy lately but you don't know why. Goodness me, just ask him! And be gentle. A man who has been in the military can do many things and seem like the bravest of souls, but his heart is still a 4 year old boy. You married a warrior and now you want gentleman. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have a scared boy inside your husband, and the approach you've taken is at least half the reason why your marriage is failing. You don't know this man. And you don't seem too interested to get to know him. You want him to be a certain way that suits you. He is not, and that angers you. The fact that he hasn't opened up to you is all the information I need in order to know that you bully him. Stop it. 

 

He doesn't put in effort unless you nag him about it? Ask him what he feels when he doesn't want to make an effort. The effort the both of you need to make is to talk about what you are experiencing in the moment without any conclusions or narratives or stories. Just share your experiences. 

 

It's more frustrating because he is a self-motivated danger and manager and I hear from him and everyone how he goes above and beyond etc. He was a champion swimmer for his country by age 13-18 and lived away from home at that time, was a "legend" in his military days, spent a year off roading in Africa with a friend if his. But can't seem to leave the grass another week and come with me and kids to a watering hole for an hour?  -- Oh holy mother of god. I'm sorry but come on. 

 

"Only when I point out our failures does he dominate the conversation with mine." (I think you meant "...with me".) You want him to be the alpha male, therefore you attack him so that he'll fight back?

 

This is exactly why he won't open up to you emotionally. 

 

 

"He only plays defense, not offense." - So do you view your marriage as a game with a winner and loser? 

 

 

regevdl, it's time for you to take a long hard look in the mirror, sister. 

 

 

Have you opened up to your husband and not just told him but shown him how scared you are? If so, how did he respond? Have you two talked about your childhoods together? Have you talked about your and his parents? If not, that could be a really good starting point for the two of you to begin reconnecting with some empathy for each other. Now it's a bold leap to start talking about your childhoods as abusive, but healthy people with healthy relationships with their parents don't end up in situations like yours. I feel very comfortable taking that leap. 

 

Does he have to work so much? All a relationship is is communication. If there is a lack of communication in a relationship, whether due to emotional unavailability or geographic unavailability, then that relationship will suffer. While couples therapy is good, it sounds like you need to find a new therapist. You should also begin seeing your own therapists separately. In fact, if you can't afford or don't have the time to do both individual and couples, go with the individual sessions. Maybe he doesn't open up in couples therapy because you're there. 

 

 

regevdl, this post was very direct and the language was sharp. I did not hold back. This was not for the purpose of making you feel bad. It was to jolt you out of your current narrative and perception that you have of your marriage. That perception is a major part of the problem. I wish you the best in your marriage not only for the happiness of you and your husband, but also for your two children who need you to do this very difficult work. Thank you so much for your post today.  I would really like to read your response either public or through a private message, if you feel like responding. 

 

Take care!

Nathan

[Christopherscience]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. So forgive me if I am too forward.

 

I feel for you. My husband is similar and truly believes he is contributing much more to the marriage than I am because he works so hard. He also believes that if he works just a little bit harder and a little bit longer hours that I will be happy. I kid you not. He really believes that. And even though I tell him that he is mistaken, he does not believe me and so continues to work and work. And he actually blames me for having so many desires that he cannot fulfill no matter how hard he works. My husband has some really odd ideas about what I want and what will "please" me. (I've told him that the fact that he thinks I need to be "pleased" irritates me.) He used to ask me what I wanted. And I would tell him what I wanted. I have had to be blunt in recent times and tell him that all of his ideas about what I want in our relationship are incorrect but he continues to do the same things. Work a little harder. Work more hours. This has been going on for several years. We are approaching our 9th anniversary.  

 

Recently I asked him what he thought his life would be like if he spent all of these hours and hours working to build our farm and in the end he turned around and I was gone and he had no one to share his creation with. Unfortunately he just thought I was threatening to leave him and missed my point that the physical structures were only important if we have an actual relationship where we can share them. 

 

I had a real break through with him the other night. I finally got him to admit that at this point we have no relationship. We are no longer connecting. We exist together but are like two ships passing in the night, This was very hard for both of us. It was raw honesty. He kept insisting that we have this "deep connection". I kept saying that we USED TO HAVE a "deep connection". We. Do. Not. Have. A. Connection. We no longer have fun. We no longer have sex. We rarely have a conversation that does not end in an argument about some trivial thing. There is no connection. There is only the memory of the beautiful connection we used to have. I just kept saying it over and over. He came over and sat in front of me and was very tender and tried to convince me that we are still connected. I was quite blunt and told him that he was imagining that I was connected with him and it was only in his imagination. 

 

I don't think that I am saying this very clearly because it was very profound. He was describing our "connection" like a strong radio signal with some static in the transmission that was a bit annoying and would clear up. I realized he just kept putting up with the annoying static but had no plan on how it would clear up. I was describing a completely dropped cell phone signal. Just pretending we still had just as strong a connection as when we started was just really stupid to me.

 

I then proceeded to apologize for making the choice to pursue our relationship when I was aware that pursuing personal growth was central to my being and while growth was important to him, he also resisted change. I admitted that I had seen it and I ignored it. I pretended that he would grow with the same ease that I did. And because I did that, we are now in the current situation that I find increasingly unbearable. I apologized for the hurt that my choice was causing him.

 

Stating the truth of my conscious choice for disconnection due to his resistance to change and making the apology changed his whole perspective on the situation. The shift was almost palpable. I could almost see the dominoes of everything that I had been saying over the past three or four years falling, He got it. He really got it. I have hope that re-connection will occur. Even though we do not have children as you do, we have invested a lot in our lives together and I have new hope that we will repair the damage and be better for it. 

 

John Gray's books are helping quite a bit. It has taken over two years to get him to read/listen to the audiobooks. But he is finally doing it. And apparently he is getting some pretty good ideas. I have noticed subtle differences in his interactions with me for the past few days. I have hope. 

 

You have described a very tough situation. I would suggest getting a different therapist if possible. A third party to mediate would be beneficial but it does not sound like that is happening with your current therapist.

 

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. 

I have a suggestion:

 

Print this out, take care of the necessities of life, sit him down, hand this print out to him (possibly hold his hand), tell him that you'd like to answer any questions he might have after he's done reading, ask him questions, discuss things (and avoid polemic language or hyperbole, such as "you never listen", instead be humble and patient and recognize the limitations and unseen biases of your commutation by asking if he understands), be direct, go for a long walk and grab a bite to eat. Possibly edit out the references to ragevdl, otherwise give him the full context.

 

That is what I would do, but... I'm not you.

 

Good job on the progress - hopefully you have yourselves a mutually beneficial arrangement in the works.

 

And a quick reminder: you don't own his libido. Sorry for the semantic argument (which I'm guilty of) you don't "have" sex - you share sex. You can persuade his libido, but you cannot own it (this is coming from someone with a history in BDsM - you cannot own a person's sex... you can share it with them - but never own it. The BDsM contract is a lie - no one owns another person). And vice versa.

 

"good skill" [good luck as people say] with the sex (and the underlying foundations that lead to it).

[LovePrevails]

Hi thank you so much for posting this, I know that must have been difficult

 

I am in the business of helping people improve and fix their relationships, perhaps we can have a conversation on Skype and see if I can meet your needs?

I would not be on the clock or anything, I'm interested in helping in any way I can, my name Is Antony and my userid is amashaman

[regevdl]

Thanks everyone for your compassionate replies.  I wrote it at 2am from not being able to sleep from a frustrating day and sort of spilled the most recent incidents rather than a broader picture but will try to answer the questions to give more context without mixing things up too much.

 

We have been married 12 years (just had our anniversary).  We waited 5 years after marriage before having kids and to ensure stability. We moved here when the kids were 4 and 2 so that was actually the easy part for them.  We had every consideration for the kids planned out and as many as humanly possible for us planned out.  We planned this for 4 years, logistics, considerations for children, financial, etc.  Still wasn't easy but compared to many others who did the same we are the 'sole surviors'....many moved back after a year!

 

 What I fell in love with was his honesty and his compassion and commitment/goals/ethics, etc.  We both are hard working and I saw a lot of similar 'drive' and common ground when we met.  

He was not emotionally repressive from the start.  We both were very affectionate, communicative, honest....even our friends were shocked out honest we were with each other and we held a lot of respect for one another, shared same dreams and philosophies, talked about our future, raising kids and views on how/what/etc.  The men I dated before were typically the emotionally unavailable ones so he was a refreshing change!

 

I don't spend 100% of the time pointing out his faults/my own.  What I mean is that when we fall on hard times, we communicate and I try to see the big picture and point things out that he may not see about himself AND about myself and he does the same for me (or used to anyway).  In the hard times, he doesn't even acknoweldge there is a problem.  Meaning....if the house is burning, I will say the house is on fire....he will ignore it and then tell me I forgot to take out the garbage while the house was burning...type scenario.  I would then try to point out what may have caused the 'fire' and he will focus on the 'garbage' or whatever.  sorry...lame analogy.  lol

 

What do I bring to the relationship?  Well, I am honest.  I am hard working, I have always held at least part time employment (full time up until we had children). I did take one year off after birth of each child in order to be at home with them.  With my son I still ran our business from home but was becoming too stressful.  

 

I am devoted to the children and their development etc.  Beyond that I cook, clean, etc. I enjoy self-knowledge and look for new learning opportunities, skills, reading or creating, etc. and I used to enjoy discussing with him.   Of late, when I bring things up he shuts down, shows signs of 'disapproval', does not engage in the conversation at all. ---so yeah....add that up over a few years, I will feel rejected time and time again.  When I bring it up it fuels the feeling.  

 

When in the US I also managed our business and all the financing.  In the new country, he manages the financing.  We started farming and it was 'his gig' so to speak but I volunteered as much as humanly possible between running my own business and raising the kids.  We moved to the new country 3 years ago.  We decided to move 4 years prior to that....so that is what I meant by it was a collaborative, deliberate decision well into our marriage when things seemed fine.  

 

I know this move, even though I prepared as much as possible, has taken a toll on me/us.

 

I know I do not own his libido or him as a person.  I am not sure what I said to make it seem as if I believe I own anyone.  :-/  In any case it's MY libido that has stopped, not his.   This resulted in an affair on his part and we tried to work through it as I am not so clueless to think that when I don't feel in the mood and our marriage is rocky that he might go look elsewhere. I'm fully aware of that, it doesn't make it moral but I know I am 1/2 to blame.  

 

What was terrible about it was that he lied when confronted and I had evidence and he KNEW I had evidence.   .  my pain was compounded when he finally admitted it, I strongly urged we see a counselor and he immediately stop these relationships and he did not for more than aweek.  THEN after he claimed to have stopped he asks me if I was spreading his 'mistress'' phone number around on the internet?!~  I didn't know this woman (he met her online) so I had NO way of obtaining  her information, nor any desire to.  I simply told him no and that I am not out to hurt anyone and I would never do that.

 

  Apparently she contacted him after he cut contact and told him that.  I explained to him later that I was saddened he even felt the need to ask if I did such a thing.  That if he felt I wdas that type of person and it made me feel like he trusted her more than me as she made the claim (I suspect) in order to keep him on the hook with her.  I suggested and strongly urged we see marriage therapy if he felt like we had something salvagable. he agreed.  Because of the language barrier, it was difficult for me to search for therapists (and the country isn't big on advertising...everything sort of runs on word of mouth...) so I asked if he was ok searching for one.  He agreed.  6 months...it took him 6 months..not because it was that difficult but because he put it off.  I asked him maybe once/month (as to not be 'naggy') if he indeed wanted to do therapy, he said yes.  I explained if he wasn't ready, I sure as hell am because everyday (especially after revelation of affair) was AGONIZING for me and I could really use a therapist.... to no avail. I tried searching on my own but was difficult to find someone in our area and who spoke English well enough.  Again, I asked for his assistance, he agreed...but put it off a few more months-----intensifying my feeling of rejection.  

 

The point that he lied to me after I had evidence and finally admitted the affair but had to ask me if I would go and spread this woman's information around....it made no sense.  He and she were on those dating sites...not me.  Anyway, it was a very very hurtful time. 

 

I told him I understand that I withdrew emotionally and sexually and even more after the affair (i guess as punishment?) but I would hope if he sees me having trouble he could reach out to me and try to bring me out of the pit.  He said he just wanted to take care of himself (sexually).  I reminded him that I am suffering from this too and we won't get very far if he only takes care of his sexual needs and i'm left to fend for myself or my partner doesn't try to help.  I see our roles for each other as for anyone else we have relationships with.... when someone is down, no matter how frustrating it is, we should reach a hand...not run the other direction.  I have been at his sides on countless other downfalls he went through and I truly felt abandoned.  AGain, not trying to escape my own responsibility but it took two of us to cause the damage and two to repair.  

 

 

 AND years before (when his work kept him on the road for 3-6 weeks at a time) we had an open and honest discussion about fulfilling our sexual needs with other people and made up cerain 'dos and don'ts' etc.  Once he left that job, we ended that arrangement with an open and honest discussion.  

 

So that is why his infidelity (not telling me his needs as I told him mine in prior arrangement) was so hurtful AND when confronted compassionately about it, he lied.  double whammy.  

 

Needless to say from there we took a nosedive.  That was about  a year ago and I feel I have SOME trust restored with him but the compassion, empathy and communication is slim.  

 

Basically I am at the point with my own self awareness, his awareness and the observations the therapists makes we are pretty much aware of all pitfalls, etc but so far don't have the tools to put us back together...knowing it will take time.  

 

I am searching for different therapists and found some 'do it yourself' steps in the meantime as in making lists of what we like about being married in general or to each other, listing reason we are still trying, committing to spending 5-8 hours  aWEEK alone...no phone, no computer, no kids.  I think this is a huge part and what has caused a lot of this.  we forgot about US in pursuit of future and family and now we must get back to that.  

 

I will check out John Gray's book, thank you for the suggestion.    I am willing to read or do anything, I really do love him and I know he still has love for me.  We ARE friends deep down.  Even our therapists says that is stark-obvious just seeing our repoire together, even when we are tense.  We are Friends and have a lot of love and respect for each other.  but think we have lost our way .

 

we have spoken about our childhoods during courtship and marriage and revisited the same stories from a different angle now during our troubled times.  I have spoken to my parents of whom i would NEVER allow into my relationship issues because I feel they left me ill prepared but I thought I would communicate with them to see if some new information could be found.  My parents were supportive and apologetic and he has never spoken to any of his friends or family about anything.  I encouraged him to do so, but don't expect or put any ultimatums on it.  

 

As far as his day off, he made a suggestion about visiting our date farm in the morning.  I immediately ensured the kids got ready, I made breakfast and was trying to get everyone to sit and eat, which we did then he changed his mind and said he wanted to go later that it would be too hot to go to the farm at this time.  I said no problem, maybe instead we could go to the natural spring (to combat the heat, it's closer than our farm and usually we are there for 1 hour or less so won't take up the whole day).  He said he 'didn't have time'.  I asked what he meant--- if something changed with his work schedule and he said no....he wants to mow the grass.  I didn't protest but told him I am happy to do that on Sunday if that's all that is keeping him from going to the spring which the kids always enjoy and it's private and secluded.  No, he insisted on working in the yard.  I didn't say anything more and kept on with my 'duties' in the house and played with my daughter.  My son helped in the yard, which is good father/son time.  But later when I didn't feel like going to the pool as it was hot outside and I just wanted some time to myself (kids are on summer break and with me 24/7) he didn't mind but later came back and threw it in my face.  It hurt me, I told him and explained that it hurt me he chose to mow the grass over going to the private spring and I understand he was disappointed that I didn't go to the pool but I was forthcoming and he didn't protest at the time, only came back to complain, rather than communicate from the front that it would mean a lot to him if I came.  If I knew that of course I would have gone.  

 

There are maternal/paternal parralles.  I do not scream at my husband and he does not scream at me.  nor did his parents.  My comment about the therapist is that I FELT a screaming voice inside because to tell a therapist 'everything is fine' made me feel even more hopeless that he is withholding.  I know everyone goes at their pace and WHY I don't/didn't scream.... I am human and will have internal frustrations.

[Christopherscience]

Thanks everyone for your compassionate replies.  I wrote it at 2am from not being able to sleep from a frustrating day and sort of spilled the most recent incidents rather than a broader picture but will try to answer the questions to give more context without mixing things up too much.

Thank you for the information.

 

The fact that he was having an affair is new information (but not surprising... a guy who travels, works a lot, and is in a sexless marriage - there's a common enough occurrence of infidelity in those cases).

 

So he was honest (as an attractive trait when you met him), and now he isn't?

 

That's a curious thing.

 

I'm curious what kind of maintenance of trust and honesty took place. I'm guilty of the "one-and-done" approach to honesty and trust: have initial vulnerability, and openness... then let it sit and decay... When, in fact, it requires regular maintenance - a kind of Real Time Relationships honesty and doggedness (which, let's face it, most people don't have the emotional fortitude to maintain).

 

Having kids, moving, doing business - they're all token exercises of trust and vulnerability. The in-the-moment honesty is where the meat of the trust and vulnerability comes from. It's far easier to look back at things than to be strong in the moment (with your feelings... and by "strong" I mean the emotional fortitude to be honest - in the moment).

 

That's kind of weird sounding: to say that having kids with some one can be a token trust (but that the real trust is in real time)... but I can't help but think of all of the women (not you, necessarily) who have kids to lock-in a man's vulnerability... as if to say "I've got your kids! Now you have to trust me."

 

But... as weird as it is... having kids is not actually an exercise in trust. Maybe it can be, but there's nothing essential in the act of having kids to the act of trusting.

 

Hmm... Thrusting vs trusting...

 

It sounds like your husband is dissatisfied... But it also sounds like he wants to protect you (otherwise, I imagine that you'd be gone, beaten, poor, or something). So he's in the impossible position of being dissatisfied but unable to voice his dissatisfaction (perhaps out of fear for what you might have to say about it?).

 

Have you tried encouraging his honesty even in moments where it hurts or pisses you off?

 

I mean, your husband has a problem... now it's your problem - it's going to hurt, but what are you going to do about it?

 

You don't have to do anything about it.

 

In fact, you're in a sexless, emotionless marriage... I can't even say "this is the man you love - he's unhappy, how do you show your love (ideally so as to help them to be happy)." I can't incite you with love for your husband if you don't have love for your husband.

 

So... you asked "if he felt like we had something salvagable" and put the responsibility on his shoulders and asked six times in six months if he had salvaged your love.

 

You put the responsibility for your emotions onto someone else.

 

And now you're unhappy... Or "frustrated", rather.

 

I imagine that you have an internet connection... and, despite the desert where you live having few marriage counselors, didn't take proactive steps online?

 

I can imagine marriage counseling via skype... I don't see why you put the onus on your husband to solve your problem.

 

You husband is going to carry himself however he's going to carry himself - you are going to do what you're going to do (and that's what you have power over). If I were talking to him (which I'm not) this would be a different conversation, and he and I would be talking about different things, and I would ask him different questions. I'd ask him about his affair, because I'd want to know. I imagine he's a complex human being, and (judging from his isolation) I imagine my questions would be like an oasis in the desert for him. Plus I try to be refreshing and not brackish to drive people away (generally).

 

So... you own your emotions. You've got a problem. Yeah he has problems, but I'm not talking to him at the moment. Right now you are the only one who can solve your problems.

 

I would be dialing up that self-knowledge, and general knowledge as much as possible until the problem (your problem) was solved. And that might entail being more proactive and kind and gentle with a man who has fallen out of trust with you... or it might entail dropping a nuclear bomb on your nuclear family... or not. You could always let things stay at the status quo - emotionless, sexless (for you, not necessarily him), and whatever.

 

Maybe there's nothing to salvage - I have no idea. I'm not your husband, so I cannot definitively say.

 

...

 

On a clarifying point: I did not believe that you felt an ownership of his libido. I just wanted to remind you.

 

And I'd like to remind you that you own your own libido.

 

...Self-knowledge... yeah... you can look into your psyche and explore why you're not sexual anymore.

 

Hey - there's nothing wrong with being asexual (from a moral stand point. Ignoring biological voluntary imperatives [low priorities]). I'm celibate. I mean - sex with women (or men) sounds like a hassle to me. I've had all the sex I wanted and wasn't satisfied. So I think I'd rather focus on other things (like work)... So... you can be sexless.

 

But that falls to you - not your husband.

 

Don't expect him to suddenly become sexless because you've become sexless... Especially if there aren't strong emotional connections threading you two together.

 

What do you bring to the table?

 

... well... "honesty" is nice (although that's a bullshit answer, especially when you don't express yourself; when you put the onus on him; when you are talking to an internet stranger and not your husband; and so on)... but do you resonate with him at all?

 

Resonate... Ha! does he vibrate when you speak? hahahah... no, I mean - does he resonate with you or does he become dull or quiet? Does he ring or doesn't he? Are you his bell? Are you two on the same frequency? Do you do what he likes (and vice versa)?

 

...

 

Here's a thought experiment, tell me which one sounds better:

 

"I'm going to nag you until I get what I want."

 

Or

 

"How can we both get what we want? I want you, and I want you to want me."

 

... Man, I love being a MGTOW, and not dealing with nagging women. Wouldn't it be great if men like me and women could have mutually beneficial, emotionally healthy, empowering relationships?

 

But, alas, I'm generally dissatisfied with women.

 

None of the women in FDR are bitchy. I like you - you haven't bitched at me... but soooo many women are bitchy... I'd be dissatisfied in a marriage, too (no offense to you or your husband).

 

My point is that cooperation is a mutual choice.

 

You can "defect" as game theorist say (infidelity, divorce, ratting out the other guy, etc.) or cooperate... but cooperation requires a desire to cooperate. And how do you entice someone toward cooperation?

 

I believe the saying is "you attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

 

But who wants flies, right?

 

Is that too cryptic? How else can I ask "what do you bring to the table"? So that you'll understand? "What do you bring to your husband's table? And by table I mean his general satisfaction?"

 

Ok... here's something else to consider; people who earn something appreciate it more (even if it is a token victory). Psychological studies show that people are happier to win nothing when, to lose, it would mean losing two dollars, instead. They are no better off, but the perception that they some how earned two dollars feels like a victory. "a penny saved is a penny earned" as they say. So... have you said, "you earned it" to you husband?

 

You want him to thank you for mowing the lawn... have you tried saying, "you earned this mowed lawn. With all your hard work and sacrifice - I'm willing to cooperate in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Wherein, you earn money and I take care of you in return for provision, through the division of labor."?

 

Maybe he would be more appreciative if he was aware of the benefits of cooperation.

 

I don't know.

 

Maybe when he says "we're building" he means "we're building a mulch garden in the back yard". I have no idea how inclined to cooperation he is, nor the incentives you provide to make him more willing to cooperate.

 

Again, what do you bring to the table?

 

And I don't mean that as an insult - I genuinely want to know; what does your husband think you are good at, for him? Why does anyone keep anyone around?

 

Does he want you raising his kids, for instance? Have you asked him how he feels about your parenting? Again, what resonates for him.

 

...

 

We talk so much about empathy on FDR... and I want you to understand your husband's emotional state of being.

 

I'm not asking about your state of being - I know your state of being already: you're frustrated, angry, unsure, and a whole host of other things which you've mentioned here.

 

Have you, regevdl, empathized with your husband lately?

 

Let me know if that question is, in any way, unclear... I'll try to ask it again more creatively... and I recognize that when there's a failure of communication (and when I'm not understood), then that is entirely my fault.

 

Let me try asking it in one new way; what did your husband feel when he turned away from his marriage? And what did it feel like to find comfort and sexual release in the arms of another woman? And how does it feel to provide for a family that you don't get to see because you're too busy? And how does it feel when your wife makes a stink about things when you're tired? And how did it feel to grow up without close male friendships? And how did it feel to grow up with all the cultural expectations of what it means to be a man and what it means for a man to love?

 

I understand that you feel abandoned.

 

Perhaps feeling connected to another human being will help you to not feel abandoned... perhaps with empathy you can have such a connection, if such a connection is possible.

 

For fuck's sake (literally) there exists mutual masturbation and hand jobs and oral sex - even if you're not feeling sexual you can give your partner a massage (and maybe ask for a massage in return, "I'll take a back massage, if you would like a 'front' massage" for instance...). Fuck, I know (of) asexuals (and have been one) who do that kind of negotiation all the time.

 

"AND years before (when his work kept him on the road for 3-6 weeks at a time) we had an open and honest discussion about fulfilling our sexual needs with other people and made up cerain 'dos and don'ts' etc.  Once he left that job, we ended that arrangement with an open and honest discussion. "

 

Maybe that's good maybe that's bad. I don't know. Maybe that's what opened the door to his infidelity, and he thought you gave approval. I don't know I'd have to ask him.

 

Spending time alone? 5-8 hours a week? Sure, I guess that might be good - I'd want to spend time with my wife and kids in a relaxed atmosphere, but that's me. I'd go on tons of hikes in mountains with 'em, but, again, personal preference. Heh... kids would have to get their own tent, though... Maybe that's the alone time you speak of.

 

But, again, you don't have to do that. You can do whatever you want. It's your marriage-part-ownership-stake-whatnot.

 

Granted, maybe taking marital advice from a MGTOW grey-ace is not the best idea. I could be wrong.

 

I could totally be wrong.

 

Heck, I don't know; call Stef, get your husband on the line, and talk it out - that's what call-in shows are for.

 

"I really do love him and I know he still has love for me."

 

Well... then that seems pretty clear-cut. My question is answered; I'd say put in the work... and stop saying it's an emotionless marriage if it is not "We've had ups and downs but overall it's an emotionless and sexless relationship."

 

Don't contradict yourself, otherwise resolve your contradictions.

 

"No, he insisted on working in the yard." Perhaps he wanted to work on the yard. I find certain activities to be meditative and necessary for my mental health. Having contemplative moments can be good, and gardening can be one such activity. "My son helped in the yard, which is good father/son time." That, too.

 

"he didn't mind but later came back and threw it in my face.  It hurt me, I told him and explained that it hurt me he chose to mow the grass over going to the private spring and I understand he was disappointed that I didn't go to the pool but I was forthcoming and he didn't protest at the time, only came back to complain, rather than communicate from the front that it would mean a lot to him if I came.  If I knew that of course I would have gone. "

 

See, this is why you have to be in the moment, and address things in real time...

 

"My comment about the therapist is that I FELT a screaming voice inside because to tell a therapist 'everything is fine' made me feel even more hopeless that he is withholding."

 

Yep, I had gathered as much - you didn't scream when you felt like screaming, even while you were in a mediated environment, and the expectation was to address problems that make you want to scream.

 

I'd call that emotional constipation.

 

Just get it out (in a constructive, and appropriate way).

 

Good bye and good skill to you.

[_LiveFree_]

"I am willing to read or do anything,"

 

1) Stop posting on the internet. 

2) Find a therapist just for you immediately (like right now) and begin seeing this therapist as soon as you can. If a particular therapist can't see you in the next 4 to 7 days, move on. 

3) Read Real Time Relationships multiple times. Listen to FDR podcasts on RTR

4) If you are not already, listen to FDR podcasts, specifically the call-in shows, a few hours each day minimum. 

5) Begin a meditation practice (you can find guided audio meditations as audiobooks or even on youtube)

 

Authors to read: Nathaniel Branden, Alice Miller, Sue Johnson, Richard Schwartz

Read anything by Nathaniel Branden you can get your hands on. The Psychology of Self-Esteem is his best and original work, but he also wrote The Psychology of Romantic Love which is a really good one, too.

 

Quite frankly, your self-awareness is not high enough at this point. While it is nice to be able to talk about life's troubles with people, because of the severity and immediacy of your situation, you need a professional that you see alone. You won't be able to get what you need here on these forums, especially since you are still having trouble with directness and honesty while posting anonymously. I know you think you're being as honest as you can, but I promise you, at minimum do the things I've listed here and then come back after a while and read these posts, you will see what I'm talking about. And the nice thing about it is that if I'm wrong, you still gain a hell of a lot of self-knowledge by taking those steps. 

 

Also, I do not recommend John Gray at all. Only when men and women lack self-knowledge and the courage to be honest do they seem fundamentally different from each other. 

 

The most important thing you can do right now is to find yourself a personal therapist. And you might as well email Mike (user: MMD) and get queued up for the call-in show. 

[LovePrevails]

Hi thank you so much for posting this, I know that must have been difficult

 

I am in the business of helping people improve and fix their relationships, perhaps we can have a conversation on Skype and see if I can meet your needs?

I would not be on the clock or anything, I'm interested in helping in any way I can, my name Is Antony and my userid is amashaman

 

if you want to send me an email enrichyourlife@outlook,com

[villagewisdom]

I have a suggestion:

 

Print this out, take care of the necessities of life, sit him down, hand this print out to him (possibly hold his hand), tell him that you'd like to answer any questions he might have after he's done reading, ask him questions, discuss things (and avoid polemic language or hyperbole, such as "you never listen", instead be humble and patient and recognize the limitations and unseen biases of your commutation by asking if he understands), be direct, go for a long walk and grab a bite to eat. Possibly edit out the references to ragevdl, otherwise give him the full context.

 

That is what I would do, but... I'm not you.

 

Good job on the progress - hopefully you have yourselves a mutually beneficial arrangement in the works.

 

And a quick reminder: you don't own his libido. Sorry for the semantic argument (which I'm guilty of) you don't "have" sex - you share sex. You can persuade his libido, but you cannot own it (this is coming from someone with a history in BDsM - you cannot own a person's sex... you can share it with them - but never own it. The BDsM contract is a lie - no one owns another person). And vice versa.

 

"good skill" [good luck as people say] with the sex (and the underlying foundations that lead to it).

Hi Thanks for the feedback. The information about the difference between "having sex" and "sharing sex" is new and interesting. I'll investigate that more. I'm curious about why you suggested printing the post, sharing it with him and getting his response. We have talked openly about all of the things I wrote about. Please elaborate. 

[Christopherscience]

Hi Thanks for the feedback. The information about the difference between "having sex" and "sharing sex" is new and interesting. I'll investigate that more. I'm curious about why you suggested printing the post, sharing it with him and getting his response. We have talked openly about all of the things I wrote about. Please elaborate. 

Because it was concise, and written. Unlike spoken words, you, or he, can point to a thing and ask questions.

 

Maybe there's benefit, or maybe it's extraneous. If he thinks it's helpful, then good, if not, then you or he can crumple up the piece of paper and toss it out of the way of something more helpful.

[villagewisdom]

 

Also, I do not recommend John Gray at all. Only when men and women lack self-knowledge and the courage to be honest do they seem fundamentally different from each other. 

 

 

These two sentences do not make sense to me. They appear unrelated to each other. Perhaps there is a sentence missing from the middle that would help. Tell me more. 

[powder]

And there it is.  I suspected that there was some infidelity involved that you did not mention in earlier posts.  

 

We are responsible for our choices, as mentioned above.  He chose to betray your trust by having an affair.  That changes things.  You are in no way responsible for his decision to deal with his frustration (or whatever it was) with the relationship by stepping outside of it.  Do not take that on.  He could have decided to do many things instead, try to talk to you, to friends, counselors, read books on relationships, etc.  

 

The dysfunctional relationship stuff, the dysfunctional childhood stuff, that all needs to be worked on and fixed.  There has been some good advice in this thread so far.  But he has to do whatever it takes to make this right, to regain your trust before any of that will matter to you.  The car may need some upkeep and even some repair to keep it going, but when someone runs it off into the ditch they are responsible for getting it out of the ditch and fix it first.  

 

I feel sorry for you that you are in this situation.  You are on the right track and I sense that you have to integrity to do what is best for you, the marriage, and the kids.  

[regevdl]

Hi All, 

 

sorry I've been away for awhile.  I didn' get to read everyone's response. I figured out who the John Grey guy was...Men are from Mars, Women from Venus so I was immediately turned off.  I shy away from those Oprah-style self-help sources, but thanks anyway. 

 

my hubby and I have already been seeing a therapist when I initially posted.  We continued and his job now has him working about 20hours /week for 2-3 months so we stopped therapy but we still use the methods taught up to that point.  We had a break through in our communication a few weeks ago but it's hard not to see each other, but the old habits and feelings of resentment and frustration and overwhelming are gone.  We haven't engaged in sex still but....the emotinoal attitude has improved 10 fold. Even the little time we spend together is much better quality. Due to his work and our extremely remote location, we are considering online therapy (or a therapist who can do Skype) so we both are looking forward to continuing therapy and improving.  

 

Lastly, I did get an appointment for the call in show but it was pushed back due to some time restraints on Stefan's part (I think he travelled so they had to cancel some call ins, etc) so I am just being patient in waiting to find out when my call in will be.

[_LiveFree_]

Hi All, 

 

sorry I've been away for awhile.  I didn' get to read everyone's response. I figured out who the John Grey guy was...Men are from Mars, Women from Venus so I was immediately turned off.  I shy away from those Oprah-style self-help sources, but thanks anyway. 

 

my hubby and I have already been seeing a therapist when I initially posted.  We continued and his job now has him working about 20hours /week for 2-3 months so we stopped therapy but we still use the methods taught up to that point.  We had a break through in our communication a few weeks ago but it's hard not to see each other, but the old habits and feelings of resentment and frustration and overwhelming are gone.  We haven't engaged in sex still but....the emotinoal attitude has improved 10 fold. Even the little time we spend together is much better quality. Due to his work and our extremely remote location, we are considering online therapy (or a therapist who can do Skype) so we both are looking forward to continuing therapy and improving.  

 

Lastly, I did get an appointment for the call in show but it was pushed back due to some time restraints on Stefan's part (I think he travelled so they had to cancel some call ins, etc) so I am just being patient in waiting to find out when my call in will be.

 

Thanks for the update, regevdl!  

 

I'm glad to hear things have improved a bit for you and your husband. Finding a therapist to do skype sessions sounds like a really good idea. If you feel like sharing, I'd be interested in reading some examples of how your communication in your marriage has improved. What is different now?

 

[Bel Rick]

I can offer one tip.As the primary bread earner in my family with a wife who hates finances and reacts badly to adverse conditions, I am guilty of keeping our financial state from her and just instead work as much as I can to keep the lifestyle my family demands.Just last 2 days ago we had a fight (ok she fought, I ignored) when she wanted to go Immediately to our pony's paddock rather than wait another hour for me to finish coding.So my one small advice.Discuss finances calmly with your husband, it could be the reason why he is pulling long hours OR pulled long hours in the past and is now in a rut or habitual work.I hope you two can work it out.ok one more tip:Dump the kids for a long weekend on your in-laws and just the two of you get away someplace nice, strip the savings(if you have) and just GO. Like the islands, somewhere where you two can get drunk, free of responsibility and stress and just shag.Sex is a great bonder between male and females.

 

[regevdl]

Thanks for the update, regevdl!

 

I'm glad to hear things have improved a bit for you and your husband. Finding a therapist to do skype sessions sounds like a really good idea. If you feel like sharing, I'd be interested in reading some examples of how your communication in your marriage has improved. What is different now?

 

 

Thanks for the support. From the honest critique of our therapist, we understood our pitfalls.  Even how we begin sentences or questions.  When we thought that was normal dialogue or communication, it was actually protaganistic.  It was subtle enough not to prompt a reaction immediately but time after time after time would cause frustration and with lack of context we couldn't resolve the issue since we weren't aware of the communication problem.  

 

That alone has diffused a LOT of frustration and arguments.  tHey occur from time to time but we point it out and continue on the better path of communication.  

 

Also my husband was 'king' of the non-apology, as in, "I'm sorry you feel that way"  or "I'm sorry you felt my behavior was...."  Oh man...those would cause WW3 but have since ceased.  

[_LiveFree_]

Thanks for the support. From the honest critique of our therapist, we understood our pitfalls.  Even how we begin sentences or questions.  When we thought that was normal dialogue or communication, it was actually protaganistic.  It was subtle enough not to prompt a reaction immediately but time after time after time would cause frustration and with lack of context we couldn't resolve the issue since we weren't aware of the communication problem.  

 

That alone has diffused a LOT of frustration and arguments.  tHey occur from time to time but we point it out and continue on the better path of communication.  

 

Also my husband was 'king' of the non-apology, as in, "I'm sorry you feel that way"  or "I'm sorry you felt my behavior was...."  Oh man...those would cause WW3 but have since ceased.  

 

Somehow I missed your response when you posted. Sorry about that. I'm so glad things have improved for you both! That's wonderful! Ya know I had never even thought of ending someone else's sentences as antagonistic. I can see now over time it causing issues. And the non-apology is just the worst :-/  Thanks again so much for sharing

[Triumph]

...

 

Maybe a silly question, when is the last time you complimented your husband?  Like a true heartfelt compliment or thank you without it being a way to start a conversation that you steered into therapist talk or your needs?

[regevdl]

I do compliment him often.  Not everyday but at least once a week.  I feel I am always fishing for compliments from him.  This is humiliating but I have discussed with him openly that I have vunerabilties of needing validation from those who are close to me.  I know this puts an unwarrented expectation on him and I try to work past it on my own.  It's hard to put into words exactly.  .  This is something I know I need to work on as an individual.   I heard a podcast about 'investing' waiting to cash in.  oddly the podcast call in was about relationships with the man putting in certain behavioral investments into the woman hoping to cash in one day on the return.  I feel I do this with him.  Like complimenting him...I mean them when I say them but subconciously I think 'ok...he will understaqnd that compliments make him feel good and return the favor when he means it'.  etc.  I have discussed with him that I literally think like that sometimes and even though it's not fair or realistic, I am working through it and indulging it once or twice won't hurt.    Even though I am open, he is stingy with compliments and 'open talk'.  I am patient and I usually start the discussions and he starts off lashing out but as long as I don't take the bait and remain calm, he opens up more...not a lot but more.  The first times never worked because I reacted rather than just let his backlash blow past and stick to the course of the conversation.  

[Blackfish64]

The picture I get is that you married a superman on a pedestal, then, as time went on, you discovered that he was just a man on a pedestal.  Take him down off the pedestal and give him a hug.  For whatever reason, he needs to be strong and doesn't want to talk about his feelings.  He probably thinks he doesn't have any feelings.  They're buried under all the superman stuff.   

 

My wife is the same way.  She can't talk about her emotions or express her sexuality very well.  That would be revealing weakness, so she thinks.      She can't have that.  She's too mighty and important to do a thing like that.   It's silly.  

 

I used to think like that, like I had to keep all my goods secret.  I'm a tough-guy, too.  But underneath it all, we're the same gushy stuff as everyone else.  Got to find a way to get to that.  It took me forever to break through.  But it can be done.   My shield was anger.  I made everyone scared of me, so no one would ask any questions.